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Secondaries

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
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Feb 8, 2008
Messages
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ventura county CA
O.K. we get a lot of questions about secondaries, so I figured I'd start this up.

stolen from peach boards

Difficulty

Hope You Have a Lot of Free Time (2+ months required)
:popo:
Very Hard (at least a month required):
:yoshi2: :shiek: :zerosuitsamus: :snake: :sonic:
Hard (2-3 weeks requires):
:bowser2: :diddy: :wario: :ganondorf: :samus2: :pt: :lucario: :pikachu2:
Average(1-2 weeks required):
:mario2: :luigi2: :dk2: :link2: :kirby2: :dedede: :olimar: :falcon: :jigglypuff: :ike: :ness2: :fox: :peach:
Easy (4-6 days required):
:zelda: :toonlink: :rob: :falco: :marth: :lucas:
Very Easy (2-3 days required):
:pit: :metaknight: :wolf:
Impossible To Be Bad With (pulse and working hands/fingers required):
:gw:

I will be aiming for characters in the average range or lower, otherwise you should pick up ice climbers for sure


This is DK :dk:

dk has a couple bad matchups
:dedede: :luigi: :wario:

and a couple that you could argue as bad, or that are slight advantage, these may be neutrals though
:falco: :zerosuitsamus: :pit: :olimar:

and two that we really aren't sure on, so don't rule anything out
:pikachu: :toonlink:

now that we know the targets, let's try to find counterpicks for them, starting at the top.

DDD gets ***** by :popo: loses to: :metaknight: :falco: :pikachu: :diddy: :olimar: :kirby: and :zelda: + :sheik:

Wario gets ***** by :dedede: and :zerosuitsamus: and loses to :falco: :marth: :metaknight: :luigi: and :gw:

Luigi gets ***** by :dedede: and loses to pretty much all of high/top tier except wario and dk

so, falco seems to be a recurring theme, but its slight advantages on all of them, so it might not be the best option. I'm going to focus the most on dedede, and the least on luigi, since ddd is very common, and nobody plays luigi, wario is somewhere in the middle.

metaknight works on all of them too, but they will know the mk matchup ten thousand times better than you will know the matchup, so I'd avoid that. for dedede your best bet would be olimar, but he does not cover wario

for the major 3 you should probably go olimar for ddd, and ddd for the other 2

more later
 

Bobbery

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 24, 2008
Messages
114
I hear that apparently Peach and DK go well together. She is pretty neutral with most of his bad matchups. Even though she counters with neutral matchups, she has some slight advantages. Plus she is a solid character.
Also playing as a big hairy manly ape and a little girly princess would be fun
 

Jingo_Joe

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Messages
118
Luigi is one of DKs worst matchups? What is your reasoning on this?
 

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
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Feb 8, 2008
Messages
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ventura county CA
from my personal experience? it would be ultra luigi powershielding my ftilt and upbing me for it, then powershielding my bair uping me for it, then powershielding my punch and upbing me for it.

but luigi combos you kinda hard, and ko's you early since you're uppercut bait
 

Jingo_Joe

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Messages
118
I just asked because I play a Luigi at tournaments who gives me a hard time for playing "High Tier" and says DK dominates Luigi.
 

Nokonoko

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
178
Well we all know DK is really high tier material despite what the BR says M I RITE GAIZ? <.<

Peach felt too awkward to me when I tried to main her — I still remember Melee dsmash spam and it makes me sad — and my Falco was just laser camping that got stuff thrown at me, so the only second I’ve managed to maintain is Pika.

I forget, who do all the “big” DK mains use as secondaries (if at all)? Bigfoot?
 

Drizzt6195

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
117
I think :kirby: is a great secondary :
- Against :dedede: matchup 60:40 on kirby matchup
verview:
The mallet-wielding king of Dream Land joins the Brawl for the first time! His smashes pack an incredible punch, but much speed is traded for that power. His multiple jumps and super armour on his Up-B make up for his low aerial mobility, and his heavy weight almost ensures that he won't need to use that recovery to the fullest. But with heavy weight comes combo possibilities for several opponents, and Kirby is no exception. Dedede has a fair bit of trouble against Kirby, and if you take advantage of that, the fight is in your hands.

Pros+Cons:
+Several disjointed hitboxes in tilts and smashes
+Effective and versatile projectile in Waddle Dee Toss
+Powerful throws, including D-Throw that can chaingrab heavier characters and the B-Throw that does 16% when fresh
+4 mid-air jumps and Up-B with great vertical distance and super armour provide incredible recovery
+Heavy weight, combined with floatiness, make for a character that is difficult to both outright kill and gimp
-Relatively slow
-Worst horizontal air speed in the game
-Predictable recovery allows for edgeguards
-Easy to combo due to weight
-Several laggy attacks
-Large target

Watch out for:
U-tilt - Like Snake's, except not broken. Still powerful...but the range isn't broken

******** grab range - It's ********. Dededes can spam grab all day and just about the only thing you can do is roll away. Spotdodge --> jab could work too

Waddle Dee Toss - Don't touch the ******* Gordo!

B-air - Longer range than yours, and he can SH double b-air. Shield and take advantage of the landing lag

F-tilt - Its huge range is a problem, as it will stop most of your ground approaches

F-smash - Do not airdodge into an F-smash. Ever. I've tried, and it doesn't work.

Dash attack - Possibly the most embarrassing way to ever get killed...

How to win:
Grab combos – D3, being a heavy character, is especially susceptible to Kirby's low percent grab combos. Get him near an edge and you can string together F-throw --> U-air or F-air --> D-air to put him in a difficult position

Stay close – Dedede excels at midrange. Stick close to him to make him uncomfortable

Edgeguard – Dedede's horrendous horizontal air speed makes him a prime target for B-air walls and general edgeguards

Use your tilts – They're too fast for D3 to do much about them. At closer range, D-tilt works wonder. Slightly further away, F-tilt is effective

Spit out or Swallow?
lol
Dedede's has slightly longer range, but more ending lag

What NOT to do:
Use attacks with long ending lag – You have to take advantage of his ending lag...you can't spam slow attacks in the meantime

Try to beat his aerials vertically – What I mean by that is, his U-air beats your D-air and his D-air beats your U-air. Avoid being right above him or right below him, unless you're punishing lag on a missed attack or you're edgeguarding him off-stage

Approach recklessly – Do you seriously want an F-tilt to the face that badly?

Forget his D-throw – Generally, D3s will use B-throw against characters they can't chaingrab, but remember that his D-throw can set up a techchase situation. To be safe, techroll away from Dedede. If you are unable to (ex. the end of the stage is behind you), and are at high percentages, keep an eye out for the dash attack

Let the Waddle Dees be – Always clear them off the stage asap. F-tilt is quite useful for this purpose

Stages (in order of priority):
Jungle Japes – Like against so many others, you can take advantage of the high ceiling here
Rainbow Cruise – You can take advantage of his poor aerial mobility here
Low ceilings– Avoid the U-tilt if he counterpicks Corneria or other low-ceilinged stages
Not much else – Generally, Kirby and Dedede are good on the same stages. None of the neutrals are much of a problem, but none have any inherent advantages for you either

Synopsis:
Kirby, in several ways, is a Dedede counter. He can't be chaingrabbed, though techchasing is possible. Kirby's recovery makes it difficult for Dedede to gimp, while Kirby's gimps make it incredibly for Dedede to recover. Watch for the U- and F-tilts, space to avoid his incredible grab range, and F-tilt to counter Waddle Dees and Doos. And remember...don't touch the ******* Gordo!
-Against :olimar: 60:40
-Against :falco: 60:40
-***** :fox: (70:30)
-Against :luigi: 55:45 or 60:40
- 55:45 against :zerosuitsamus: and :toonlink:

That leaves us only with :wario: , you could use :dedede: but I've seen enough of his big *** so you can take :marth: :)
 

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
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I like using olimar, cause he wrecks ddd, and is solid enough that they have problems cping him (except peach, peach vs oli is REALLY dumb). also snake for luigi
 

MasterCheeze

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I just started seconding G&W since I like to own people are ridiculously low %'s. I have Pika for D3 and Fox (I don't fair too well with DK against Foxes) and G&W for Falco (sometimes a nuisance) and maybe good Marios. I pretty much use DK for everyone else, but I might switch randomly depending on how badly I'm getting whooped.

I dunno. Hopefully I'll have enough people to get my back. :(
 

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
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ddd is the only one you NEED to switch for, the other two are 4:6 and the 4 listed are 45:55 at best (I'm teliing you dk beats oli though)

for fox, just shield grab his dair and get him off stage, then gimp, really basic

also, upb a lot
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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Sep 4, 2006
Messages
9,632
I honestly don't have a secondary but if I need to switch to beat a DDD I go jigglypuff
 

DonkeyKongUh

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
63
Doesn't kirby wreck DK...? Low% grab comboes work great and swallicide obliterates dk due to his lack of vertical recovery.

I think dk and d3 mesh pretty well.

D3's worst matchups are
IC: DK reaps with down B
Lolimar: It's about neutral with DK
Falco: Both are fat which causes falco trouble to kill but avoiding the spike is a pain...
All lights/floaties: D3 generally sux vs light peeps he cant cg which dk murders with his sheer killing power.. (exception kirby and kinda olimar due to his camping and uber grab range)

As bigfoot said D3 destroys weegee and wario. D3 mirrors award camping and cging and are a complete drag which is why olimar would probably be useful for that...

Between d3 and dk the bad matchups are:
Falco (he's still a pain even though dk supposedly has the advantage)
Kirby
Diddy
Olimar (see falco)
 

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
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kirby has low % grab combos, but is outprioritized, and downb makes getting grabs hard, the dk's said 4:6 kirby and the kirbys said 4:6 dk, so we agreed on neutral

falco has a slight advantage on dk, oli is argued as an oli advantage, but I 2-0'd the main arguing oli in tournament, diddy is one we aren't sure on
 

Four Leaf

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 24, 2008
Messages
256
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York, Pennsylvania
kirby has low % grab combos, but is outprioritized, and downb makes getting grabs hard, the dk's said 4:6 kirby and the kirbys said 4:6 dk, so we agreed on neutral

falco has a slight advantage on dk, oli is argued as an oli advantage, but I 2-0'd the main arguing oli in tournament, diddy is one we aren't sure on
Diddy ***** the hell outta dk imo. Dk looks like he'd enjoy bananas more, being he's an ape, but he doesn't
 

Donkey Bong

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
610
^^^^
i agree with grape ****, diddy takes DK to school with those banana locks.

usually what you're supposed to do is take diddy's bananas from him and its gg. but hes so fast that its really hard for DK to do that.
 

OmniOstrich

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
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Raleigh, NC
^^^^
i agree with grape ****, diddy takes DK to school with those banana locks.

usually what you're supposed to do is take diddy's bananas from him and its gg. but hes so fast that its really hard for DK to do that.
We have a crew in NC and the two best players are DK and Diddy mains (Ragnarok and Dub) and Ragnarok wins 3/4 of the time.
 

Cyphus

BRoomer
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ddd and diddy **** DK. No johns.wario, falco own DK.
if you really think otherwise you're just very arrogant/ignorant/haven't played very good players of those characters.

DK has comparatively nothing he can do with a banana. "he's got an awesome glide toss, el oh el!"
This is common error. DK has a great glide, but a HORRIBLE toss. He has one of the slowest throws, this severly limits his game offensively w/ bananas. (defensively, he is ruined against them, being a huge target)
DK's usual best option w/ bananas is too simply drop them. Additionally it can be bait for diddy to pick them up so he can get downB'ed. Regardless, diddy combos crap outta DK. Banans make this match, and easily make it in diddy's favor.

wario grab to 100+% > grab release KO at 100% from DK
wario can play also play very campy and space around DK's range pretty easily.
you could go into detail, but i dont think its really neccessary. Infinite are not banned at good tournaments, so you need a 2ndary for a competent wario. And grabbing DK isn't that hard for wario, and its so easy, its impossible to mess up the chainthrow to 100%. (seriously, try it...its ********)

i'm not sure who i should use versus Wario. I'm going ot look into their boards and see who they fear.
 

itsthebigfoot

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I play DEHF, the second best west coast falco (he beat sk, sk has first due to attendance) quite often, since he's one of the few people nearby, it isn't that bad, he can just camp you. I also have played futile 3 separate times in tournament, and I play fiction a lot, since he's nearby too.

I know the wario and falco matchups like the back of my hand, falco is a VERY slight advantage, because the camp can give you serious problems, but all he can do is camp. wario in the air is more to worry about than wario going for the cg (just downb and he won't grab you). So yeah, they don't own/**** falco is 45/55 falco, wario is 4/6 wario, and i've played some VERY good warios and falcos to back up my claims

I'll let rag explain the diddy matchup, since he knows it better than anyone

just a note though, wario and diddy are a lot like ice climbers, the first few times you play them you will get *****, horribly, horribly *****. once you learn the matchup it isn't nearly so bad though
 

Cyphus

BRoomer
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well, i'll hope to get some insight versus Diddy, cuz i recently got ***** vs Le Thien in pools. I was close to beating him with Luigi however (who i think i'll use versus wario as well from now on). As for personal experirence....well, i play Lee Martin (the best Lucario, widely considered top 10 in the nation, and plays half the characters impressively, Sudai-arguably best ROB in the south, etc...although admittedly Louisiana lacks tournament-active Warios and Diddy (as far as the high tiers). So i do hope that i am wrong, and that DK can in fact win.
 

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
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wario will give you trouble, but if you grab release punch for damage and grab release usmash for ko's (works at 84 guaranteed), you got a shot. just downb a lot if he's on the ground, if he's in the air high angled ftilt, reverse utilt, bairs, and upb help

don't try to defend at all against wario in the air, you will just get bitten, attack him or gtfo.

and diddy's just one of those matchups, everyone gets ***** by there first diddy. luigi is supposed to effectively screw with his banana game though, no nana lock
 

OmniOstrich

Smash Lord
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Apr 21, 2008
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Raleigh, NC
dk has a couple bad matchups
:dedede: :luigi: :wario:

and a couple that you could argue as bad, or that are slight advantage, these may be neutrals though
:falco: :zerosuitsamus: :pit: :olimar:

and two that we really aren't sure on, so don't rule anything out
:pikachu: :toonlink:
Is Fox any good as a secondary or in my case as a main and Secondary DK?
Look at the list and see which of those fox does good against (keep in mind there are other matchups you personally may not like to play out other than those listed)

Fox boards matchup guide has only 6 advantages for him out of 26 cast members completed, I think he is better than that, but w/e.

Of those listed fox gets ***** by :zerosuitsamus: and :pikachu: and has a disadvantage vs :falco:
That means you will need some specific counters for them, or man it up and learn the matchup really well with your main.
 

Jmex

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Im working on Zss as my secondary. Shes so **** fun, plus it makes me happy going back to playing Samus. :)
 

Jmex

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^ Thats good news for me then :)
 

AAP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
241
Yea as someone had mentioned, DK was accepted as a pretty good secondary to peach. But i dunno if it would go both ways. Peach takes some time to get use to which kinda lowers her potential as a secondary. For someone willing to learn her she certainly does offset DK's weak matches.

G&W for some reason seems to me like he'd be a good secondary, if you're a b-air lover like many DK's are he seems pretty straight forward.
 

OmniOstrich

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Yea as someone had mentioned, DK was accepted as a pretty good secondary to peach. But i dunno if it would go both ways. Peach takes some time to get use to which kinda lowers her potential as a secondary. For someone willing to learn her she certainly does offset DK's weak matches.

G&W for some reason seems to me like he'd be a good secondary, if you're a b-air lover like many DK's are he seems pretty straight forward.
Falco ZSS and TL aren't exactly easy matches for G&W, doable, but certainly not simple wins as you would like for CPs.
 

Jmex

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^ I tried using Peach, and i instantly gave up on her during the first match. 1 minute into the match, i exited out of the match, and said fukc that. Shes so weird to me.

Game & Watch, i think hes similar to Meta in the sense that everyone was and is working hard to find new ways to beat him. So hes not as "good" as he used to be. That and he gets really boring after a while.
 

Mith_

Smash Champion
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Jul 30, 2008
Messages
2,376
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Augusta, GA
Peach is easy to play with lol. Gets even better after you learn turnip tricks and float maneuvers. Only thing I hate is she has trouble killing and DK doesn't.
 
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