Secondaries to cover Sonic's bad matchups?

[F-Scissor]

Recently I've had a hard time with certain matchups such as Villager, R.O.B, and other characters that have an easy time putting Sonic in the defensive in neutral with projectiles quite a bit. Any advice on another character I could pick up to help with these matchups? I've picked up Luigi and Mewtwo to an extent, but frankly I don't believe they have too good of matchups against characters that I have described. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks :D

 

[cstonic]

(I also use Mewtwo! He's amazing <3)
For Villager, I rush him down hard. Dont give him any room and fair is good for edge guarding him.

Also overrall, I'm thinking Fox as a good secondary.

 

[Tabris]

Also overrall, I'm thinking Fox as a good secondary.

Seconding this. I recently picked up Fox as a secondary to help in the match up against projectile characters and find he's a lot of fun to use. He can play his own camping game and rack up damage with careful use of his lasers forcing opponents to come to you. Just don't spam them mindlessly because he holsters his gun leaving you vulnerable. His Reflector can bounce back Villager's Fair, Bair and Lloyd Rocket (even if Villager is riding on it).

Once, he gets in or forces your opponent to come to you, he can also rack up damage really quickly and his Double Jab cancel is amazing once you learn the timing of it.

I would definitely recommend picking Fox up for projectile character match ups and think you'll find him really enjoyable.

 

[F-Scissor]

Thanks a lot for the advice! I'll definitely look into him :D

 

[Pazzo]

Any other possible secondaries who help Sonic? I personally don't like Fox.

 

[Vaughngief]

For me personally my secondary main is Mewtwo. Sonic is mostly based around mix ups and mind games, but is lacking in consistent K.O. power. Mewtwo is light, but can take stocks down rather quickly depending on how much pressure you can lay down. I also use Ike and Dark Pit on occasion.

Keep in mind though my reasons for playing characters is because I have to visually like their design, play style, and how cool they look doing their attacks. I just figured I'd mention something, because the few characters I've mentioned have been pretty good for me and I'm a Sonic main.

Edit: Just noticed your Villager and ROB issues. My friend mains both those characters and what I said actually works out. Mewtwo is a good counter to Villager, because you can reflect confusion the keep away game and tree. As for ROB Ike's a pretty decent counter. A lot of his moves out prioritize ROB's and his counter can come in handy against random side B's.

 

[HeavyMetalSonic]

I'm gonna have to agree with . Despite being opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to playstyles, it is really helpful having someone who you can fall back on who plays different to your main and is aimed more at being patient and has a decent projectile and can cripple projectile based characters, unlike who has to duck and weave through them.

Sonic can struggle against certain characters with projectiles, like . can simply sit back and force to come after him instead. His projectiles are rendered useless by SideB, and can easily keep him out with all his tail based moves. pretty much ruins most characters projectile game. Yeah, can pocket your NeutralB, but you can just as easily reflect it back at him. He is also incredibly good at following opponents offstage, more so than I think in most instances.

 

[Vex514]

I feel like Pikachu does really well against the matchups Sonic doesn't like. Mind you, I'm comfortable against Fox and R.O.B and I'm slowly adapting and preferring Sonic to the Luigi matchup, so I'm not sure how many characters I feel the need to switch against still. However, Pikachu is a great answer to Villager (who I think is our worst matchup), makes Captain Falcon (who is frustrating sometimes) super easy, and he shuts down R.O.B pretty hard in my experience.

 

[Thouvexed]

I've also picked up Pikachu to second Sonic.
Mario can also play the roll well imo.

 

[Funkermonster]

I honestly find that Sonic needs no secondary, and that there's no matchup that hard to overcome. Some like and are tough, but are all doable and I don't think the matchups get any worse than 40:60. I do personally have issues with Villager, Mega Man, Toon Link, Wario, and Ness; but I think its just my lack of MU knowledge more than anything else.

Also ROB is really not that hard of a fight, annoying, but I think we actually beat him by at least +1. Yeah he can zone Sonic out for quite awhile, but his melee prowess isn't that great and he's practically combo food once Sonic gets in. Being a floaty giant, he dies a lot from being Uaired against most of the cast and I've had success chasing him in the air and Uairing him from springs, plus his recovery leaves him vulnerable to single strong blows and Bair takes care of him nice and easy too. With his kill throw nerfed, I think he became even less of a threat in the patch. To me, ROB is merely an annoyance for Sonic and that its 50:50 at worst, not a truly negative matchup.

To deal with most of my annoyances though, I main Mega Man . Unlike Sonic I don't really have to approach with him and I think Mega Man handles the fair majority of the cast fairly well.

 

[SmashGamer112]

I have MegaMan and Fox, it works really well.

 

[Toxiphobe]

AHHHH YES M'BOY Sonic. Welcome to the Sonic clan dear friend. As you know, Sonic obviously is a fast hitter with weak attacks. He has no projectile but his spring which is.....useless at times unless you're me.

Here's my explaination poop:

Brawlers beat Reflecters (Due to some lag)
Reflecters beat Projectilers/Counterers (For obvious reasons)
Projectilers/Counterers beat Brawlers (Reasons for your case)

So in order to beat Projectilers, so what the brothers and sisters of this thread said. Use a reflecter man like Fox or Falco or Pit or my young boy Dark Pit or use projectiles to your advantage with Ness' PK Magnet, Mario's cape or Mewtwo's Side B.

 

[Camalange]

He has no projectile but his spring which is.....useless at times unless you're me.

who are you

 

[Toxiphobe]

who are you

Just your average Sonic user since brawl. I've spent years mastering him and I've...came up with a few GOT YA tactics with his spring's hitbox.

 

[Toxiphobe]

Still working on a few things tho.

 

[SmashGamer112]

AHHHH YES M'BOY Sonic. Welcome to the Sonic clan dear friend. As you know, Sonic obviously is a fast hitter with weak attacks. He has no projectile but his spring which is.....useless at times unless you're me.

Here's my explaination poop:

Brawlers beat Reflecters (Due to some lag)
Reflecters beat Projectilers/Counterers (For obvious reasons)
Projectilers/Counterers beat Brawlers (Reasons for your case)

So in order to beat Projectilers, so what the brothers and sisters of this thread said. Use a reflecter man like Fox or Falco or Pit or my young boy Dark Pit or use projectiles to your advantage with Ness' PK Magnet, Mario's cape or Mewtwo's Side B.

Fast with weak attacks? Sonic's pretty strong this game.

"useless at times unless you're me."

^ I don't know if I should laugh or facepalm.

 

[Pivot]

Sonic has certain MUs that are simply worse than others. Some are downright bad for him. Let's say a Sonic player has a knowledge of the game, skill level, and knowledge of the matchups at a ranking of 7/10. And let's say he plays every other character that also has this 7/10 rating on these aspects.

Let's disregard the stages for this example. The Sonic will win against some characters and lose against others, simply due to the fact that Sonic is bad against certain characters, and good against others.

Now, taking into account all of the above, that means there is also a character that is the best as a secondary with Sonic. A character that is the best MU for all of Sonic's worst MUs. Obviously in a perfect world this exists, but since this isn't one, we can only choose the best secondary for Sonic with the options we have.

Does any experienced Sonic have any idea about what this could be, or does the game need more time to develop to decide? One has to be clear on Sonic's worst MUs and also clear about all the other character's matchups against Sonic's worst MUs to judge... So it may be hard. But I'm interested to see if anyone can say anything about it.

 

[jaimex2]

+1 for Pikachu.

If you're like me you rely on speed ( frame data ) so Pikachu fits nicely. Sonics bad MU are the ones that can zone him out so any character that handles zoning well is what you should be looking for.

 

[AJDOH]

I don't really venture too far outside of fast characters, but I'm guessing that Rosaluma would be an incredible secondary.
She can make up for the range and spacing a sonic doesn't have. Also, unlike sonic, she can easily maneuver around projectiles

Not to mention, Rosaluma vs Sonic is a MU I find really annoying, so it would help knowing her options instead of playing it on feeling.

 

[SmashGamer112]

Sonic has certain MUs that are simply worse than others. Some are downright bad for him. Let's say a Sonic player has a knowledge of the game, skill level, and knowledge of the matchups at a ranking of 7/10. And let's say he plays every other character that also has this 7/10 rating on these aspects.

Let's disregard the stages for this example. The Sonic will win against some characters and lose against others, simply due to the fact that Sonic is bad against certain characters, and good against others.

Now, taking into account all of the above, that means there is also a character that is the best as a secondary with Sonic. A character that is the best MU for all of Sonic's worst MUs. Obviously in a perfect world this exists, but since this isn't one, we can only choose the best secondary for Sonic with the options we have.

Does any experienced Sonic have any idea about what this could be, or does the game need more time to develop to decide? One has to be clear on Sonic's worst MUs and also clear about all the other character's matchups against Sonic's worst MUs to judge... So it may be hard. But I'm interested to see if anyone can say anything about it.

Honestly you just choose a character that can beat sheik and characters with projectiles + good camping game. If you can do that, then it's pretty helpful.

 

[KeetZ]

I use a number of characters outside of my bro Sonic, and I have to say that the best secondary to have for him would have to be Rosalina & Luma for obvious reasons. Also, I think it's good to have a secondary that is a completely different playstyle than your main.

 

[spiNR]

I've been looking into a lot but has sounded really appealing to me. I'm definitely in the camp that believes its better to have a character that plays a totally different game to Sonic as a pocket secondary.

 

[SmashGamer112]

So far, these seem like the most popular secondaries to go with.



are all good characters to go with imo

 

[Pivot]

Rosaluma is a great secondary to zone and counter projectile-heavy characters, but I feel like it isn't a very good secondary for a Sonic main, because you run the risk of running into a Rosaluma main and having to play a mirror match. Usually, someone who mains Rosaluma will beat someone who secondaries one.

 

[spiNR]

That's something that seemingly would apply to any character though. It might be a bit more obvious with RosaLuma because of her intricacies and play-style being different. If you run into a Pikachu main, the same would probably apply. Of course it does depend on how your set plays out more than anything.

 

[Pivot]

Well, let's say you choose Sonic and you face Rosaluma for the first match. Obviously that's an awful matchup for Sonic, so I'd pick my secondary. But if my secondary is Rosaluma... Doesn't work. That doesn't happen for every character, though. Let's take your Pikachu example. First match it's me (Sonic) vs some Pikachu. That isn't an awful matchup for Sonic, so I wouldn't need to resort to my secondary (Pikachu) for a mirror match.

The issue only really comes up when the secondary you choose happens to be the same character that Sonic has a really bad matchup against. Although check these out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EShAlnQ7AX4

 

[spiNR]

I see what you mean. However, even if the match-up isn't awful the same situation can still apply. RosaLuma is the best example to use but it can hold true for other characters.

 

[Kuraudo]

Rosalina & Luma is a bad match-up? I'd beg to differ, personally speaking. Sonic's one of the best characters to destroy Luma, hands down based upon his throws alone. She's a wall while Sonic is a wall breaker.

 

[Camalange]

I really don't think Sonic is much of a "wall breaker" in this match-up.

 

[Haven-HeroesRest]

Thank you to everyone who posted on this thread. This has helped me a lot consider my secondaries for Sonic so I can become a better smasher. I want to share my opinions as well.
Personally, I have found Luigi to be a great secondary for my Sonic. His up throw and down throw combos allow for easy percents while his fireballs can help you be more defensive if you want, as well as his traction pushing him back when shielding attacks.
Fox hasn't worked for me because his throws aren't that good and I like being able to go off stage more safely and sometimes go for a stage spike, which is scary for Fox because it can easily backfire on you.
Pikachu could work as well, he is great for edgeguarding with his Thunderjolt and bair. He also has good combos, and is a better choice defensively than Luigi.
Olimar is a choice of mine that works well against slower characters. Fox is a REALLY BAD matchup for Olimar in my opinion. Olimar relies mostly on his pikmin throw, which racks up a lot of damage. Fox can reflect the Pikmin and since Fox is a fast character, he can easily get in and cause Olimar trouble. Olimar struggles against fast characters who can rush him down before he can throw his Pikmin.
Dark/Pit work well if you want a great projectile, and have great throw combos such as down throw to up smash or up air. You can also bait the air dodge and go for the Side Smash. Their recovery is still good, but is easily spiked because of no hitbox when used.
Zero Suit Samus is best for grabs as well and her projectile is my favorite in the game. If you stun someone off stage, it is an easy down b spike. You can also grab d throw up air to up b from mid-high percent kills depending on the blast zone location. But I wouldn't chase off stage with her because of her bad vertical recovery.

Also, can someone tell me a counter to Rosalina and Luma? I have a hard time beating Rosalina's online. I have only beaten ONE in my 6 fights against Rosalina.

 

[Camalange]

Also, can someone tell me a counter to Rosalina and Luma? I have a hard time beating Rosalina's online. I have only beaten ONE in my 6 fights against Rosalina.

Sheik.

Rosalina & Luma boards would probably be of more help.

 

[DunnoBro]

Both me and seagull joe agree Mario's a pretty great secondary. While he generally only soft-counters most of sonic's bad matchups (great against fox and zss though) he also compliments sonic's stage coverage nicely. Mario vastly prefers the likes of halberd, battlefield, dreamland, etc.

Aside from sheik, I don't think sonic has any perfect secondary to counter all bad MUs. But mario with his soft counters + stage coverage, along with an easy to pick up playstyle that doesn't demand too heavy investment(like sheik does) makes him seem like the best pick to me.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I was thinking .. anyone have an opinion on this character?

 

[Camalange]

Mario seems interesting. How does Mario fare against Fox or ZSS as opposed to Luigi?

Diddy is still good, just not nearly as free. Some match-ups that he had that were even he loses now... Like Sheik or Luigi.

 

[DunnoBro]

Mario seems interesting. How does Mario fare against Fox or ZSS as opposed to Luigi?

Diddy is still good, just not nearly as free. Some match-ups that he had that were even he loses now... Like Sheik or Luigi.

Both bros are pretty hard counters to fox imo. Luigi has regrab combos on him so just 1 grab is like half the stock. Mario gets lots of mileage out of grabs too and a better neutral than luigi, but struggles to get the kill unlike luigi.

Mario's just plain better against ZSS... Luigi doesn't combo her ridiculously hard, she's immune to cyclone kills, and unlike fox doesn't really put herself in positions dthrow > bair will finish her. Luigi's lack of air mobility makes him really enticing for her, too.

Overall the mario bros have similar matchups with luigi coming out on top in a few top tier MUs (pikachu, fox) but mario still has good MUs vs those characters, and even/good matchups against others like wario, yoshi, and will also contend with the likes of sheik, and falcon if they CP you somewhere precarious for sonic. (BF, dreamland, etc)

Falcon accomplishes similar stage and matchup coverage (mostly via soft counters though) but hits rosalina instead of sheik. Dabuz recently stated he believes rosalina beats sonic, so if she's your concern you might want to consider him too.

I think sheik is a more relevant threat, though I don't think sonic loses to her outright except on certain stages... This means if you lose game 1, you are in a worse position than normal vs sheik.

 

[Damandatwin]

@ DunnoBro what's your opinion on Mario vs RosaLuma?

 

[DunnoBro]

@ DunnoBro what's your opinion on Mario vs RosaLuma?

Probably bad. Disjoints and anti-grab mechanics don't bode well for mario, but some mario mains claim it's even with fireball zoning and fishing for bthrow to auto kill luma. Anti bodied dabuz with mario when they played, and he pretty much utilized those strategies, so I could be wrong.

Ally seems to have a lot of trouble even against mediocre rosalumas, though in general he plays really sub-optimally

 

[Vex514]

Also, can someone tell me a counter to Rosalina and Luma? I have a hard time beating Rosalina's online. I have only beaten ONE in my 6 fights against Rosalina.

Honestly, this comes down to custom environments, because from my experience against Dabuz and other Rosalinas in tournament, Sonic with Hammer Spin dash shuts Rosalina down HARD. Any time she sends out luma, it's so easy to hop over her, and due to the cool down you will often get a bury as well resulting in a good punish if not KO. Without customs, it's frustrating, but Sonic has great options in his froward-tilt and forward-smash for dealing with Luma and quickly separating the two of them. I feel that without customs, the Sonic vs Rosalina matchup is 50/50 at worst, and with customs, it's 60/40 in Sonic's favor.

 

[Haven-HeroesRest]

Honestly, this comes down to custom environments, because from my experience against Dabuz and other Rosalinas in tournament, Sonic with Hammer Spin dash shuts Rosalina down HARD. Any time she sends out luma, it's so easy to hop over her, and due to the cool down you will often get a bury as well resulting in a good punish if not KO. Without customs, it's frustrating, but Sonic has great options in his froward-tilt and forward-smash for dealing with Luma and quickly separating the two of them. I feel that without customs, the Sonic vs Rosalina matchup is 50/50 at worst, and with customs, it's 60/40 in Sonic's favor.

I don't prefer customs. I like playing with just the basic character. Thank you for your input, but i just feel like Rosalina is too good. I know Sheik is better but I have a personal problem with Rosalina that I didn't have with the Ice Climbers. Luma respawns quickly in my opinion. After Luma is gone, Rosalina just spaces me out with her disjointed hitboxes and just hides in the corner until Luma respawns. I love playing as Sonic, but I just feel like I need another character. I have a solid Luigi secondary, but my button mashing needs to get faster for his down b recovery. My Olimar is a work in progress, I am not sure what will happen because I don't know the matchup. I don't know what Pikmin Throw would do and if it would latch onto Luma or if Rosalina's Down Special could stop my Pikmin. Probably gonna go with ZSS or Dark/Pit.

 

[Crimgan]

Whats everyone's thoughts on Megaman as a secondary? He can handle most of Sonic's bad match-ups since he doesn't need to approach and can counter most projectiles with his own (as well as canceling most attacks with Mega Buster shots). Yes Rosa and anybody who can reflect are annoying (especially Rosa), but Megaman can handle them with the right setup.