Gea
Smash Master
Alright, I understand the thought process a little better. The thing with taking, say, space animals as the litmus is that they have some tools no other characters will ever have, and thus will always have an edge in some ways to the rest of the cast. I'm talking about shine, of course. I mean, imagine if they did not exist and Peach was top, top tier. Trying to balance everyone with her as a focal point would be difficult, she too has unique tools that maybe centering buffs around would not ever really "resolve" some issues of character.
The tricky thing, of course, is that many of these characters that need buffs have strong playstyles that while you may want to keep in tact, there is no good way to do so easily without changing the dynamic of the character. I totally understand that. I just feel like some of the current changes towards characters were maybe too focused on strange buffs and some movement changes instead of overall character packages. To that end I think I can say a bit more about a few characters.
Also, before I continue I want to say I actually really appreciate your post and how in depth it was, even if you felt as if it was rambling in nature. I was kind of vague in my previous post about said characters (minus Doc I guess, I have a pretty clear vision of what he needs, the rest is just slight icing on said cake) because I wasn't sure the approach taken by the staff. I feel that ironing out "useless" moves would do nothing but enhance gameplay, but these changes are very backseat compared to "fixing" characters. I'll go on to list a couple more characters that "feel right." Samus, DK, and Mario all feel like themselves. Mario is a bit on crack, though. He feels very very easy to chain moves with. Kind of funny that in some ways he actually reminds me of falcon now.
I guess I'll talk a bit more about Luigi. Cyclone is actually fine as is, it was always better than the other Marios' versions, and while you have to mash something fierce and "charge" it, it was never the limiting factor of his recovery. Green missle's ending lag is really what borks him the most. Upping the misfire rate is actually hurting his recovery in the long run imo, because you either bank on chance to recover safely or you have the increased risk of overshooting the stage entirely. Similarly, all characters should have a more or less "bread and butter" recovery method, hopefully one that does not depend on luck. I think it was fine at original chances, but that ending lag totally makes the move so easy to stuff it hurts. I was surprised by your changes to Luigi because they seemed to buff his KO potential which I always saw as actually fairly good as is. Fair was always a solid move, I'm actually alittle unsure what he gains by it being faster. His floatiness is actually what holds him back the most, since it is such a large investment for him to jump. I think KK said it best in the tier list thread recently, something along the lines of that Luigi probably has untapped potential and is roughly even with Doc, it's just his faults lead to players hinging on unsafe gimmicks that work because they are odd (double aerials on shield) moreso than safe. So I look at the changes of his fireball and fair with a sort of puzzled expression on my face. I feel as if these changes are novelties, not exactly fixes.
And to that end we come to the question, well how does one "fix" Luigi. Ideally I think it would be to retain his contrast of high ground mobility and slower aerial mobility, however he needs proper tools of aggression. He basically needs a way to make people scared to shield. I'm not sure I entirely have an answer for you, either. I also have to admit that overall I find some of the changes in outright movement speed a little overboard at times (example: GW), and I feel as if any high traction lower-tiered character got upped. I'm kinda wondering if that was due to movement alone or that they got shined blind, so to speak.
The tricky thing, of course, is that many of these characters that need buffs have strong playstyles that while you may want to keep in tact, there is no good way to do so easily without changing the dynamic of the character. I totally understand that. I just feel like some of the current changes towards characters were maybe too focused on strange buffs and some movement changes instead of overall character packages. To that end I think I can say a bit more about a few characters.
Also, before I continue I want to say I actually really appreciate your post and how in depth it was, even if you felt as if it was rambling in nature. I was kind of vague in my previous post about said characters (minus Doc I guess, I have a pretty clear vision of what he needs, the rest is just slight icing on said cake) because I wasn't sure the approach taken by the staff. I feel that ironing out "useless" moves would do nothing but enhance gameplay, but these changes are very backseat compared to "fixing" characters. I'll go on to list a couple more characters that "feel right." Samus, DK, and Mario all feel like themselves. Mario is a bit on crack, though. He feels very very easy to chain moves with. Kind of funny that in some ways he actually reminds me of falcon now.
I guess I'll talk a bit more about Luigi. Cyclone is actually fine as is, it was always better than the other Marios' versions, and while you have to mash something fierce and "charge" it, it was never the limiting factor of his recovery. Green missle's ending lag is really what borks him the most. Upping the misfire rate is actually hurting his recovery in the long run imo, because you either bank on chance to recover safely or you have the increased risk of overshooting the stage entirely. Similarly, all characters should have a more or less "bread and butter" recovery method, hopefully one that does not depend on luck. I think it was fine at original chances, but that ending lag totally makes the move so easy to stuff it hurts. I was surprised by your changes to Luigi because they seemed to buff his KO potential which I always saw as actually fairly good as is. Fair was always a solid move, I'm actually alittle unsure what he gains by it being faster. His floatiness is actually what holds him back the most, since it is such a large investment for him to jump. I think KK said it best in the tier list thread recently, something along the lines of that Luigi probably has untapped potential and is roughly even with Doc, it's just his faults lead to players hinging on unsafe gimmicks that work because they are odd (double aerials on shield) moreso than safe. So I look at the changes of his fireball and fair with a sort of puzzled expression on my face. I feel as if these changes are novelties, not exactly fixes.
And to that end we come to the question, well how does one "fix" Luigi. Ideally I think it would be to retain his contrast of high ground mobility and slower aerial mobility, however he needs proper tools of aggression. He basically needs a way to make people scared to shield. I'm not sure I entirely have an answer for you, either. I also have to admit that overall I find some of the changes in outright movement speed a little overboard at times (example: GW), and I feel as if any high traction lower-tiered character got upped. I'm kinda wondering if that was due to movement alone or that they got shined blind, so to speak.
