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Welcome to this Suggestion Thread. At the moment Project M is still under development, so everything is subject to change. As it stands now, Pikachu is one of the most underused characters, especially with the release of version 3.5. I'd like to hear some creative ideas about what can change for our little electric rat, and who knows, despite how unlikely it is, it could give the PMDT some ideas!
Changes can happen for either balance issues or aesthetic design. Balance changes would tackle Pika's problem areas, so any suggestions thereof should have expansive consideration about how the change would affect the game. Aesthetic choices have no game influence but can make the game more enjoyable nevertheless. You can also suggest joke ideas acknowledging that they'd never be implemented for real just for kicks.
Examples for each:
Balance - Reanimate the backwards crawl so that the tail is not above Pikachu and circumventing the entire point of the crawl. Perhaps move the tail to one of Pika's sides
Aesthetics - Color Pika's tail with a white glow during U-smash as a reference to Iron Tail
Joke - Smash Taunt during Thunder to give Pikachu Thunder Armor that makes him unflinchable for a short period of time
TL;DR Discuss possible changes you would like to see to Pikachu here. Can be for balance, aesthetics, or joke suggestions, but give some rationale if you want to be taken seriously!
The most obvious change is to fix QAC (including the glitch by which Pikachu sometimes maintains his double-jump when hit during QA). I think the most elegant check to the power that would bring is to make it so QAC is lost when Pikachu enters tumble, and regained when he lands.
This specifically targets the least interesting, most objectionable uses. IE, when recovering against an opponent, and as an escape from being juggled. However, he could still use it to recover from his own deep edgeguards (assuming the opponent didn't turn the tides), and QAC wouldn't just be hit out of him by every incidental move. On the other hand, it couldn't be used to forgo the ledge-game, since he'd have to have already gotten onstage to use it. Basically, Pikachu would have to earn QAC back by not relying on it to reset to neutral.
Speaking of neutral, I have said about all I could to explain QAC and its risk/reward to the unfamiliar¹, but here's the tl;dr version:
QAC gave Pikachu a creative skill - requiring technically precise, subdued, and unpredictable use to not blow up in his face - that allowed Pikachu to do things that just come naturally to other characters. Most characters can close space or circumvent positional disadvantage just by swinging their long-range, disjointed attacks. Pikachu doesn't have this option, but QAC offered a more difficult, more dangerous direction.
QAC didn't circumvent positioning; it overcame it. QAC was always risky around anyone with hitboxes. It left Pikachu completely open and basically huge, and using it to regain position was a Hail Mary play that put Pikachu in an even worse position, hoping the opponent couldn't read Mrs. Wishy-Washy and that the player's fingers didn't fumble. Especially with the above changes and Melee-landlag making the threat of failure all the more ominous, QAC would be a thoughtful, unspammable move that requires proper usage to amount to anything.
But maybe the DT might still think the risk/reward is unbalanced. The appropriate response is to tweak the ratio, not remove the player's options altogether. One or both of the following could do that:
QA can only be cancelled by jump. Thus, QAC could only lead directly to a safe position through wavelanding (more like frame-perfect wavedashing; more technically demanding with worse risks from failure than traditional QAC-WL). Frankly, I find QAC'd aerials (especially Fair autocanceling, basically negating any lag from QA) to be boring, especially compared to how strong an option they are. They, along with QAC-special and super-easy QAC-WL, seem way more arguably-OP (in both reward and lack-of-risk) than second-zip QAC, with much less room to innovate. The latter is just better design.
QAC has minor recoil damage. If one is really so worried about QAC spam, have punishment happen automatically. Even if it's just a couple %, that's plenty for Pikachu's weight, so it should curtail usage, making the player weigh () their options that much more. Plus it's a flavorful change, following a common Pokémon practice and alluding to Pichu.
The key is to preserve fun and excitement for those playing and watching the game. Honestly, given the choice I'd personally much prefer (and I think it would be better for the game and its fans) for QAC restored with deliberate modifications than to have most of Pikachu's other buffs from Melee. Things like safer Fair, stronger Uair, bigger shield, and longer grab add no depth or draw, and just serve to make Pikachu easier, not more fun. Even making Bair less awesome would be better-advised.
I just think "easier and better" is the wrong direction, but I'll stop now before I get too dogmatic…
Something else that would add to Pikachu, rather than just buff him: Pichu's Skull Bash.
Not really a change to his basic gameplay, since SB is already more than enough for its purpose. But in rare occasions like a missed Rest, 2v1's, and amazing reads/mindgames, it would allow truly massive damage from massive distance, kills earlier than his already respectable smashes, and more satisfyingly disrespectful kills at higher percents, while staying true to Pikachu's great ability to take advantage of opponents in poor positions even at low percents. There's precedence in Ike, Ganondorf, Jiggs's Rollout, Ike again, etc., and just think of the hype!
If not, it still needs to be matched to Melee, where it was 1% better than Usmash (fully charged vs. fully charged). Also, PM Pikachu's ftilt weakens over time, while I believe (but haven't gotten to check yet) Melee's did not.
Another Pichu thing that I think would be cool is her Dsmash as a Crawl Attack.
Maybe not copying it exactly (the invincibility in particular seems totally awesome unnecessary), the main thing is the direction it sends. Imagine being able to just fling someone off-stage without a grab. As Pikachu! It'd be soo ****ing broken! neat.
For animation, I imagine a combination of Pikachu's crouch and Utaunt.
A real Dash Attack comes to mind only after all the actually compelling stuff.
As for aesthetics, I really want a Gold hat. It's a pretty obvious choice, considering Pikachu's 1st and 3rd gen hats, that 2nd was undoubtedly the best, the trend of black and yellow costumes (it is an awesome color scheme), and that they already have a model.
I just hope the fact it's in Smash 4 makes it more likely we'll get the classic version, rather than none at all.
Yellow's hat would be great, too. There are a lot of references to the anime in PM, but none to the manga. This makes sense considering their respective popularity, but is disappointing considering their respective quality. I prefer not having Iron Tail for that reason.
There should be some female pikachus. I think goggles and wizard would work, and obviously Yellow. Smash 4's already done it with Villager/WFT/Robin, so I don't see a problem in following suit.
Also, I think every Pokémon should have their cry on their entrance and elsewhere, as Mewtwo does. That goes for Pikachu, too, although it should to be the old beepy version to be recognizable.
I acctually like pikachus downsmash maybe even more than up smash, depending on the character I'm playing against it's really good for combos. Also if I wanted someone off the ledge I would do nair chains or nair > f tilt/d tilt. Or even a backthrow. But what pikachu really needs is his dash attacked buffed. I'm tired of having to rely on nairs/d tilts to approach. Also if I dash attack I get Punished for it even if it connects, yet I see characters like marth and fox being able to combo off a dash attack. Pikachu is still viable but his lack of range brings some limitations having a worthless dash attack just makes things harder for us.
Honestly you had me lost in the QAC section, but I think we're lucky to even have half of QAC. QAC in 3.0 was just too over centralizing, every top level pikachu in pm relyed on it like it was it's only option in nuetral game (Anther). Btw I love QAC Aireals espically for tech chases. Making QAC only possible by jumping would be too campy and that was the problem with 3.0.
I also would have liked the gold hat over the hat we got in 3.5.
Also pichu skull bash buff plz.
Maybe not copying it exactly (the invincibility in particular seems totally awesome unnecessary), the main thing is the direction it sends. Imagine being able to just fling someone off-stage without a grab. As Pikachu! It'd be soo ****ing broken! neat.
For animation, I imagine a combination of Pikachu's crouch and Utaunt.
I acctually like pikachus downsmash maybe even more than up smash, depending on the character I'm playing against it's really good for combos. Also if I wanted someone off the ledge I would do nair chains or nair > f tilt/d tilt. Or even a backthrow. But what pikachu really needs is his dash attacked buffed. I'm tired of having to rely on nairs/d tilts to approach. Also if I dash attack I get Punished for it even if it connects, yet I see characters like marth and fox being able to combo off a dash attack. Pikachu is still viable but his lack of range brings some limitations having a worthless dash attack just makes things harder for us.
Honestly you had me lost in the QAC section, but I think we're lucky to even have half of QAC. QAC in 3.0 was just too over centralizing, every top level pikachu in pm relyed on it like it was it's only option in nuetral game (Anther). Btw I love QAC Aireals espically for tech chases. Making QAC only possible by jumping would be too campy and that was the problem with 3.0.
I also would have liked the gold hat over the hat we got in 3.5.
Also pichu skull bash buff plz.
I didnt mean hes a bad player, i think hes the best pikachu in pm, but he spammed QAC so much neutral, He defiantly can approach in other ways and still be top level. BTW did you type this during M2k vs Leffen? cuz if you did you missed a really hype game.
Make Side B and or Dash Attack not useless, Give him a tiny bit more range on something forward facing (maybe nair/fair) Pikachu is honestly about as good as he'll ever be right now.
He will always be a mid tier unless we completely change him as a character, just by design. He is easily combo'd and fairly simple to edge guard. He has little range is is forced to play very well to make small openings that typically dont lead to much damage. All of his moves are really just "alright" with a few exceptions, but each move has several different uses that make it so tweaks to them can easily change pika's game.
like if Fair had higher knockback it would be useful for approaches, but we lose Fair ---> upsmash. Changing one aspect of him breaks others, which makes me appreciate what we have.
If you want to win Nationals honestly just dont use pikachu. I dont see him being a huge threat at big tournaments unless Axe/Anther are the one(s) controlling him.
No one's a huge threat at big tournaments unless someone ridiculous is controlling the character ;p.
I think pika still has a lot going for him. Tremendous amounts going for him! I dropped the ball for a while since I stopped really practicing at all toward the end of the summer, but I'm definitely playing better than I ever have with him since QaC (surprisingly...) wasn't the end all be all to him being amazing.
I'm sure I used QaC a lot in neutral.. but when you're far away from your opponent and they don't know the matchup enough that they're in danger of pikachu teleporting to them... why not use it. It's intimidating, and a lot of winning can be done just by intimidating your opponent >.>! Especially when they have no experience against certain techniques.
@Shenanigans He's "Kind of" simple to edge guard... But compared to who else?! His recovery still goes farther than most and sweetspots a lot easier and quicker than a lot of the cast. If you're recovering on battlefield if you're close enough you can probably pick top platform, mid platform, ground, or ledge to recover to... or qac into the ground OR reverse tailspike them if they mis-space their edgeguard!
Sorry, no capture device. But after some labbing, I've noted what does and doesn't affect it.
If Pikachu zips into the ground then is hit during the zip, he can double-jump when he gets out of hitstun.
Doesn't matter whether QA was initiated on the ground, or if he'd already expended his double-jump, or which zip is used, or the direction of the other zip, or even if Pikachu is hit in midair after going off a platform.
I believe he should have no double-jump if hit during QA, regardless of situation.
Alright somewhat long wall of text time on some of my thoughts about the character.
IMO the main problem with Pikachu in this game is not his viability (though a few minor buffs wouldn't go amiss) but that he is just very unfriendly to beginning players, which results in a small amount of Pikachu players overall, as most won't stick with him until higher levels of play where he gets much better.
Two of the primary reasons for this that could be remedied are his abysmal grab range and useless dash attack. A relatively new player interested in playing Pikachu is confronted with a character that can't use dash attack as an approach, nor pretty much ever get shield grabs, two of the things they're probably used to relying on the most. Shielding in general is awful with him until you're used to using more advanced options like Up Air/Up Smash/Wavedash out of shield. Even get up attacks can often push you out of grab range when shielding them. It's really that bad.
In addition to lacking basic tools other characters can fall back on at lower levels of play, most of his moveset is pretty unorthodox and takes time to learn to use effectively. He has to make do without a proper forward air for spacing, which is another thing people rely on a lot at lower levels. Quick Attack, while a fantastic recovery, also takes a long time to be able to use well. Uair is one of his most important moves for both combos and edgeguarding and even that requires significantly more knowledge of how it works to use it effectively compared to most character's primary moves. These things are probably all part of what we love about Pikachu, and I wouldn't see them changed, but my point is that the difficulty is already there in other areas, he doesn't need to be bogged down further with other downright unfriendly drawbacks like his grab range and some actually near useless attacks (DA, Side B).
I think buffing his grab range slightly would universally buff him vs the entire cast somewhat (as he'd get more grabs in general, and his throws are great) as well as make him a lot easier for beginners. He doesn't need a big grab range, but enough to be able to shield grab most really poorly spaced aerials at least would be great. As it is now they have to pretty much land inside you to actually get shield grabbed. I'd be fine with dash attack remaining laggy on whiff, but at least make it give a reward on hit. I'd like to see it be more similar to Fox's dash attack in terms of knockback, propping them up above your head for a followup hit. Either that or just increase the knockback on it so they can't just tank it and hit you back during the move's endlag. It doesn't have to be great, just not a move that punishes you even for landing it, like it is now.
Side B is also really meh but I'm not too bothered about it. It helps for recovery a little at least. If you actually wanted to make it useful on stage I'd say look at Smash 4's Heavy Skull Bash custom special and take some inspiration from that. Not too fussed if Side B stays as it is now though.
In regards to QAC, obviously I preferred the 3.0 version, but whatever. Not gonna cry over it at this point and I've already adjusted to the changes. I mostly just regret losing one of the most fun things in the game for me, more than anything. It's still there, and still useful, but there were quite a few tricks I enjoyed doing with it that just aren't possible anymore.
To make things easier for newer players, I'd like to see what would happen if Pika got a little more disjoint on Nair, like what the Brawl Nair animation shows with the tail slightly extended but having actual hitboxes this time. Any spacing increase on a move, especially one the Pika uses very often, would be appreciated to give Pika slightly less commitment and more zoning ability for say Nair out of shield. Depending on where the hitboxes are, it could cover another portion of Pika's body and make landing the hits from either of Pika's sides, or Nairing through projectiles, more consistent and reliable. But if the hitboxes are too much, then at least re-extend the position of the tail anyway so that players can keep track of where the current hitboxes are while they rotate around Pika's body.
I also wonder about the design of F-smash. It's a great and actually disjointed move, but I just find it weird that it has the least amount of damage/reward when spaced correctly. Having the strongest hit closest to Pika's body, though true to his archetype as U-smash is also like this, means that there will always be a question of what it's proper use is - do you use it for spacing (less reward for trying to play safely) or try to land it's big damage? And the latter option's spacing timing is extremely tight, especially since Pika's head lurches forward a bit, giving the opponent opportunity to stuff the move for once. And then another minor thing but I'm not sure if the electricity outlasts the move's hitboxes, as sometimes after the opponent spotdodges he'd get "hit" by electricity without getting damaged, so perhaps an animation tweak could correct this.
And last for now, but what exactly are the effects of electric moves again? Is it more hitstun or more endlag? And despite the answer, would it be better if this property was removed to make it purely aesthetic and comparable to other elemental attacks?
From my understanding of it the electricity effect multiplies hitlag (the "freeze frames") when a move connects but before knockback is applied. Basically any electrical move will have higher hitlag than it usually would. It's what makes already high knockback moves like Ganon's Dair, Falcon's Knee and Pika's Fsmash give that effect of freezing the game for a full second when they connect, and overall makes them feel super meaty when they hit.
It has a few knock-on effects on gameplay besides looking flashy, notably that it gives the opponent more frames of hitlag to apply Smash DI, and the big pause in action can throw off the timing on some things (ever missed the l-cancel on Ganondorf's stomp after you connected with it? The massive hitlag generated by the electricity effect is probably why.) I guess notably for Pika his dsmash would be significantly harder to SDI out of without the electricity effect, but I personally like it anyway.
If we call the first frame of Fsmash's hitbox (which is the same frame that the graphic appears) frame 1, then the hitbox is last present on frame 8. The arcing electricity is last visible on frame 19, and the ball on frame 24. Yeah, that could probably be matched up better.
The sweetspot is misleading, but I like that there's a tradeoff between power and range/speed. The graphic wouldn't really work if it were flipped, so I dunno. Maybe add a blue glow around Pika's head that fades over distance?
I got a chance to check Melee, and I'm quite certain ftilt did not decrease in damage.
I agree that having a less worst dash attack would make Pika more newb friendly. Doesn't need to not be super laggy, just a higher BKB so there's actually a difference between hitting and missing.
Things like Pikachu's grab/range should not be buffed. They're supposed to be weaknesses, and people will complain about them as long as they actually are weak. See Captain Falcon's grab/recovery for example, or even the fact that they're already better than Melee's. Just making the character pick up for the player's shortcomings doesn't improve the game at all; it adds no depth, makes marginal difference to the player, makes it less interesting for the watchers, and makes it more frustrating for the opponent.
Besides, in the case of shield grabs, what do they matter when Nair, Uair, and Usmash exist?
My two cents on the changes that should be made to Pikachu:
Pikachu's dash attack is almost useless because of its low KB and absurdly high lag. I don't think the KB needs to be increased, but the lag should be reduced. I think this would significantly improve Pikachu's neutral game since his range is still terrible. Also, adding an electrical effect to the attack for purely aesthetic purposes would be a nice little touch. We could rename it Volt Tackle! I don't see why Pikachu's dash attack shouldn't be buffed. They made Luigi's dash attack viable, so why not Pikachu's?
The whole point of having a crawl is to avoid projectiles while moving, but Pikachu's tail goes upwards while crawling backwards. As Choice Scarf suggested, changing the animation so that the tail stays down would make his backwards crawl very useful.
As I've complained about several times before, the hitboxes for f-air out of QAC do not come out, apparently because QAC'd aerials last for 8 frames only while f-air's hitboxes come out on frame 10. Again, props to Choice Scarf for explaining this. Just make f-air's hitboxes come out several frames sooner. It wouldn't be overpowered, because f-air can be crouch cancelled easily.
I think that some more lag should be added to Thunder. Having time to hit someone with Thunder more than once after sending them to the ceiling with an uncharged up-smash is kind of ridiculous and makes me feel like I'm playing a brain-dead character.
The nerfs made to QAC and Skull Bash in 3.5 are fine. I was upset about them at first but have gotten used to the changes.
Replace the old PKMN Trainer hat with a female Pikachu alternate. Heart-shaped tail tips are funny. Besides, I don't know any Pikachu player who likes wearing the old hat, especially now that we've got the much cooler swagchu version added in 3.5
My two cents on the changes that should be made to Pikachu:
Pikachu's dash attack is almost useless because of its low KB and absurdly high lag. I don't think the KB needs to be increased, but the lag should be reduced. I think this would significantly improve Pikachu's neutral game since his range is still terrible. Also, adding an electrical effect to the attack for purely aesthetic purposes would be a nice little touch. We could rename it Volt Tackle! I don't see why Pikachu's dash attack shouldn't be buffed. They made Luigi's dash attack viable, so why not Pikachu's?
The whole point of having a crawl is to avoid projectiles while moving, but Pikachu's tail goes upwards while crawling backwards. As Choice Scarf suggested, changing the animation so that the tail stays down would make his backwards crawl very useful.
As I've complained about several times before, the hitboxes for f-air out of QAC do not come out, apparently because QAC'd aerials last for 8 frames only while f-air's hitboxes come out on frame 10. Again, props to Choice Scarf for explaining this. Just make f-air's hitboxes come out several frames sooner. It wouldn't be overpowered, because f-air can be crouch cancelled easily.
I think that some more lag should be added to Thunder. Having time to hit someone with Thunder more than once after sending them to the ceiling with an uncharged up-smash is kind of ridiculous and makes me feel like I'm playing a brain-dead character.
The nerfs made to QAC and Skull Bash in 3.5 are fine. I was upset about them at first but have gotten used to the changes.
Replace the old PKMN Trainer hat with a female Pikachu alternate. Heart-shaped tail tips are funny. Besides, I don't know any Pikachu player who likes wearing the old hat, especially now that we've got the much cooler swagchu version added in 3.5
I agreed with everything except for extending the thunder lag. I have killed myself many times because of the thunder lag, no need to make it any more longer. Also Thunder is only used in one situation its not like its OP or anything, also the opponent will most likely be Di ing away after the U Smash making the first thunder kind of risky if they are away from the stage, even if you do hit they can still Di away from the blast zone and also make the next Thunder a risky play. Idk about you but i mess up my Reverse thunder occasuanally in a real match mostly because i get nervous from knowing that if i mess up i will most likely self destruct. Also pikachu isnt good, after playing him for two months i say hes around low tier, I feel like i have to put in more effort just so i can compete with other people who use "better" characters. Pikachu has some good strengths but its outclassed by his limitations i dont think he needs to have one of his strengths taken away.
So something I want to note, I've noticed that the amount of lag between landing into the stage via upB and landing from the special fall is practically the same. There's a big difference between the two in melee. Idk if that was a mistake, but that's something that should get fixed like asap.
Reviving this thread purely because of some random dream mashing-up Smash and Street Fighter, but I got a weird "not-sure-if-serious" idea: what if Pika had a hooligan? I see it as a cross between Diddy's Side B and ZSS's down B, and it would replace Skull Bash. It's purpose would be a mix-up for Nair, looking similar because flips and **** but not having a hitbox until the player presses a button. It would provide horizontal momentum like Skull Bash to still help with recovery a bit.
Empty hooligan would go as far and as high as a SHFFL Nair and have little landing lag, mainly so that if you accidentally side B its less severe of a punishment.
Inputting smash vs tilt on the Side B would give noticeably different lengths. Balance can range between keeping the difference to a minimum to being able to hold back to shorten distance more like regular Nair.
Pressing a button (A or B, I guess) would do some sort of weak attack that comes out quick and has a good amount of active frames but has large landing lag if used late and late IASA regardless. Probably nothing as bad as what Skull Bash is currently like but in a similar vein. Maybe something like the 64 sex kick Nair?
The move only gains height (~ as tall as a short hop) when used from the ground. In the air there would be little to no vertical gain to balance out how QA is so good, and just speed up Pika's horizontal momentum to dashing speed but return to normal when the move is done. Similarly late IASA like Skull Bash regardless of attack inputted to keep things risky offstage.
For some reason I can just imagine this having better B-reverse tech and in general being a platform for more balance utility if Pikachu ever needs it (if by some crazy fortune he needed a command grab for example). In the end it would have Skull Bash's one utility and weaknesses while conforming more to Pika's quick and mobile playstyle.
Can't really think of a similar Pokemon move name though. ("Pikachu! Use Hooligan!")
Suggestions to improve Pikachu significantly while maintaining a balanced character.
QAC: Pikachu 3.02 QAC but only allow second dash QAC if starting QA from the ground. While aerial QA can only cancel on first dash to maintain recovery nerfs/balance. If PMDT still sees this as being unbalance, make his movement speed faster. Around Diddy's speed at least along with a slight increase in aerial movement during aerials.
Side B: 1st idea, allow side B charge to be stored but can only be canceled and stored if on the ground. Aerial version not cancelable. Additionally, give Pika electricity around him to show stored charge.
2nd idea: Make it like Peach's side B where it cant hit shields(making it more punishable) but when it hits Pikachu bounces off of them similar to Squirtle's side B to get low-mid percent follow ups.
FAir: Give the first 4 hit boxes similar properties to Fox's dair. Uncrouch-cancelable and puts target in forbidden DI hit stun.
Grab animations and range: Use Smash 4 Pikachu's grab animation and increase his range to accommodate new animation.
) their options that much more. Plus it's a flavorful change, following a common Pokémon practice and alluding to Pichu.
