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Scientist Claims Gravity is Nothing More than an Entropic Force

Ballistics

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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/science/13gravity.html?no_interstitial

July 12, 2010
A Scientist Takes On Gravity
By DENNIS OVERBYE


It’s hard to imagine a more fundamental and ubiquitous aspect of life on the Earth than gravity, from the moment you first took a step and fell on your diapered bottom to the slow terminal sagging of flesh and dreams.

But what if it’s all an illusion, a sort of cosmic frill, or a side effect of something else going on at deeper levels of reality?

So says Erik Verlinde, 48, a respected string theorist and professor of physics at the University of Amsterdam, whose contention that gravity is indeed an illusion has caused a continuing ruckus among physicists, or at least among those who profess to understand it. Reversing the logic of 300 years of science, he argued in a recent paper, titled “On the Origin of Gravity and the Laws of Newton,” that gravity is a consequence of the venerable laws of thermodynamics, which describe the behavior of heat and gases.

“For me gravity doesn’t exist,” said Dr. Verlinde, who was recently in the United States to explain himself. Not that he can’t fall down, but Dr. Verlinde is among a number of physicists who say that science has been looking at gravity the wrong way and that there is something more basic, from which gravity “emerges,” the way stock markets emerge from the collective behavior of individual investors or that elasticity emerges from the mechanics of atoms.

Looking at gravity from this angle, they say, could shed light on some of the vexing cosmic issues of the day, like the dark energy, a kind of anti-gravity that seems to be speeding up the expansion of the universe, or the dark matter that is supposedly needed to hold galaxies together.

Dr. Verlinde’s argument turns on something you could call the “bad hair day” theory of gravity.

It goes something like this: your hair frizzles in the heat and humidity, because there are more ways for your hair to be curled than to be straight, and nature likes options. So it takes a force to pull hair straight and eliminate nature’s options. Forget curved space or the spooky attraction at a distance described by Isaac Newton’s equations well enough to let us navigate the rings of Saturn, the force we call gravity is simply a byproduct of nature’s propensity to maximize disorder.

Some of the best physicists in the world say they don’t understand Dr. Verlinde’s paper, and many are outright skeptical. But some of those very same physicists say he has provided a fresh perspective on some of the deepest questions in science, namely why space, time and gravity exist at all — even if he has not yet answered them.

“Some people have said it can’t be right, others that it’s right and we already knew it — that it’s right and profound, right and trivial,” Andrew Strominger, a string theorist at Harvard said.

“What you have to say,” he went on, “is that it has inspired a lot of interesting discussions. It’s just a very interesting collection of ideas that touch on things we most profoundly do not understand about our universe. That’s why I liked it.”

Dr. Verlinde is not an obvious candidate to go off the deep end. He and his brother Herman, a Princeton professor, are celebrated twins known more for their mastery of the mathematics of hard-core string theory than for philosophic flights.

Born in Woudenberg, in the Netherlands, in 1962, the brothers got early inspiration from a pair of 1970s television shows about particle physics and black holes. “I was completely captured,” Dr. Verlinde recalled. He and his brother obtained Ph.D’s from the University of Utrecht together in 1988 and then went to Princeton, Erik to the Institute for Advanced Study and Herman to the university. After bouncing back and forth across the ocean, they got tenure at Princeton. And, they married and divorced sisters. Erik left Princeton for Amsterdam to be near his children.

He made his first big splash as a graduate student when he invented Verlinde Algebra and the Verlinde formula, which are important in string theory, the so-called theory of everything, which posits that the world is made of tiny wriggling strings.

You might wonder why a string theorist is interested in Newton’s equations. After all Newton was overturned a century ago by Einstein, who explained gravity as warps in the geometry of space-time, and who some theorists think could be overturned in turn by string theorists.

Over the last 30 years gravity has been “undressed,” in Dr. Verlinde’s words, as a fundamental force.

This disrobing began in the 1970s with the discovery by Jacob Bekenstein of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and Stephen Hawking of Cambridge University, among others, of a mysterious connection between black holes and thermodynamics, culminating in Dr. Hawking’s discovery in 1974 that when quantum effects are taken into account black holes would glow and eventually explode.

In a provocative calculation in 1995, Ted Jacobson, a theorist from the University of Maryland, showed that given a few of these holographic ideas, Einstein’s equations of general relativity are just a another way of stating the laws of thermodynamics.

Those exploding black holes (at least in theory — none has ever been observed) lit up a new strangeness of nature. Black holes, in effect, are holograms — like the 3-D images you see on bank cards. All the information about what has been lost inside them is encoded on their surfaces. Physicists have been wondering ever since how this “holographic principle” — that we are all maybe just shadows on a distant wall — applies to the universe and where it came from.

In one striking example of a holographic universe, Juan Maldacena of the Institute for Advanced Study constructed a mathematical model of a “soup can” universe, where what happened inside the can, including gravity, is encoded in the label on the outside of the can, where there was no gravity, as well as one less spatial dimension. If dimensions don’t matter and gravity doesn’t matter, how real can they be?

Lee Smolin, a quantum gravity theorist at the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics, called Dr. Jacobson’s paper “one of the most important papers of the last 20 years.”

But it received little attention at first, said Thanu Padmanabhan of the Inter-University Center for Astronomy and Astrophysics in Pune, India, who has taken up the subject of “emergent gravity” in several papers over the last few years. Dr. Padmanabhan said that the connection to thermodynamics went deeper that just Einstein’s equations to other theories of gravity. “Gravity,” he said recently in a talk at the Perimeter Institute, “is the thermodynamic limit of the statistical mechanics of “atoms of space-time.”

Dr. Verlinde said he had read Dr. Jacobson’s paper many times over the years but that nobody seemed to have gotten the message. People were still talking about gravity as a fundamental force. “Clearly we have to take these analogies seriously, but somehow no one does,” he complained.

His paper, posted to the physics archive in January, resembles Dr. Jacobson’s in many ways, but Dr. Verlinde bristles when people say he has added nothing new to Dr. Jacobson’s analysis. What is new, he said, is the idea that differences in entropy can be the driving mechanism behind gravity, that gravity is, as he puts it an “entropic force.”

That inspiration came to him courtesy of a thief.

As he was about to go home from a vacation in the south of France last summer, a thief broke into his room and stole his laptop, his keys, his passport, everything. “I had to stay a week longer,” he said, “I got this idea.”

Up the beach, his brother got a series of e-mail messages first saying that he had to stay longer, then that he had a new idea and finally, on the third day, that he knew how to derive Newton’s laws from first principles, at which point Herman recalled thinking, “What’s going on here? What has he been drinking?”

When they talked the next day it all made more sense, at least to Herman. “It’s interesting,” Herman said, “how having to change plans can lead to different thoughts.”

Think of the universe as a box of scrabble letters. There is only one way to have the letters arranged to spell out the Gettysburg Address, but an astronomical number of ways to have them spell nonsense. Shake the box and it will tend toward nonsense, disorder will increase and information will be lost as the letters shuffle toward their most probable configurations. Could this be gravity?

As a metaphor for how this would work, Dr. Verlinde used the example of a polymer — a strand of DNA, say, a noodle or a hair — curling up.

“It took me two months to understand polymers,” he said.

The resulting paper, as Dr. Verlinde himself admits, is a little vague.

“This is not the basis of a theory,” Dr. Verlinde explained. “I don’t pretend this to be a theory. People should read the words I am saying opposed to the details of equations.”

Dr. Padmanabhan said that he could see little difference between Dr. Verlinde’s and Dr. Jacobson’s papers and that the new element of an entropic force lacked mathematical rigor. “I doubt whether these ideas will stand the test of time,” he wrote in an e-mail message from India. Dr. Jacobson said he couldn’t make sense of it.

John Schwarz of the California Institute of Technology, one of the fathers of string theory, said the paper was “very provocative.” Dr. Smolin called it, “very interesting and also very incomplete.”

At a workshop in Texas in the spring, Raphael Bousso of the University of California, Berkeley, was asked to lead a discussion on the paper.

“The end result was that everyone else didn’t understand it either, including people who initially thought that did make some sense to them,” he said in an e-mail message.

“In any case, Erik’s paper has drawn attention to what is genuinely a deep and important question, and that’s a good thing,” Dr. Bousso went on, “I just don’t think we know any better how this actually works after Erik’s paper. There are a lot of follow-up papers, but unlike Erik, they don’t even understand the problem.”

The Verlinde brothers are now trying to recast these ideas in more technical terms of string theory, and Erik has been on the road a bit, traveling in May to the Perimeter Institute and Stony Brook University on Long Island, stumping for the end of gravity. Michael Douglas, a professor at Stony Brook, described Dr. Verlinde’s work as “a set of ideas that resonates with the community, adding, “everyone is waiting to see if this can be made more precise.”

Until then the jury of Dr. Verlinde’s peers will still be out.

Over lunch in New York, Dr. Verlinde ruminated over his experiences of the last six months. He said he had simply surrendered to his intuition. “When this idea came to me, I was really excited and euphoric even,” Dr. Verlinde said. “It’s not often you get a chance to say something new about Newton’s laws. I don’t see immediately that I am wrong. That’s enough to go ahead.”

He said friends had encouraged him to stick his neck out and that he had no regrets. “If I am proven wrong, something has been learned anyway. Ignoring it would have been the worst thing.”

The next day Dr. Verlinde gave a more technical talk to a bunch of physicists in the city. He recalled that someone had told him the other day that the unfolding story of gravity was like the emperor’s new clothes.

“We’ve known for a long time gravity doesn’t exist,” Dr. Verlinde said, “It’s time to yell it.”

Actual paper from arXiv:

-- http://arxiv.org/abs/1001.0785 (pdf on the right)
 

El Nino

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The concept of gravity used to bother me as a kid. I would be doing some research for some science project, and I would trace back the cause and effect of everything to the sunlight from the stars and how they generated heat and energy due to gravitational pull. But I couldn't figure out what gravity was or how it worked because that part was unknown or at least not published in books for gradeschoolers (yes, in a time before Wikipedia, when the Earth was still young).

And now the sucker dun exist. WTF?
 

Grandeza

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Mind=Blown


Actually, I must be stupid or something. I can't pretend I understand what this guy is talking about and i don't think I'll ever understand that timecube stuff.
 

UberMario

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Sounds like garbage, it's not an "illusion", it COULD (but unlikely since ice-cold objects still have large amounts of gravitational pull) be powered by thermodynamics, but it still exists.
 

#HBC | Dark Horse

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This reminds me of this one doctor that recommended going to college 3 years instead of 4
 

Pikaville

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Oh god.....Luigitoilet cracked out the timecube.

I can't believe you know about that too.

Man why is it this stuff that is so interesting to me, unable to be properly explained.

The universe absolutely amazes me.

Oh and check this out too.Make sure to read them in order.I nearly fried my brain getting my head around it.

http://teamikaria.com/hddb/classic/
 

IsmaR

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Sounds messed up enough for me to believe/side with it. In reality, it is impossible to truly understand these things. We can only truly make interpretations until we make one that sounds good, fits most cases, and can't be proven wrong(ironic since it can't be proven completely right, either). Article was a good read, interesting theory, and I like the mindset the professor has. That and it kinda added to my current thoughts while watching sis play SMG2, lol. The game (as well as reality to an extent) would make a whole lot more sense if it really didn't exist. As stated, it is an interesting perspective on the subject, as well others.
 

Mewter

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Well, this definitely looks interesting!

@Luigitoilet: I.... really don't know what to think of that. :laugh:
 

Ballistics

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Did you confuse "Robot Chicken sketch" with "reality"?

Because most everyone doesn't consider Pluto a planet anymore.

Or I have a feeling something went over my head.
What is the jist of the time cube? Seems a little spread out to me.

I could never really believe that stars billions of light years away are pulling on me with gravity. So this theory makes more sense to me, although I don't totally understand the theory either.
 

Dru2

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Poor Pluto...gets no respect anymore.

Anyway gravity is an Illusion? Wait...time cube what now?
Stop trying to make simple things complicated!
 

Luigitoilet

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Omnicron you're a douche ******.

anyways, Timecube is simple for non snotbrains!!



"Opposite sex organs prove
male & female to be binary
opposites equal zero value,
and nothing as unified one.
You are educated ENTITY
STUPID for all Creation is
composed of Opposites ----
which equate to Zero value
existence - and cancels out
to nothing if unified as one.
Before Word was invented,
no God existed upon Earth.
Truth cannot be uttered so
that's why I am writing it."

duh :rolleyes:
 
D

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It would be a good idea to edit the layout of the OP, because this is basically unreadable.
 

Mr.Freeman

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Did you confuse "Robot Chicken sketch" with "reality"?

Because most everyone doesn't consider Pluto a planet anymore.

Or I have a feeling something went over my head.
Oh SNAP!

But seriously, I think its stupid to believe gravity is not real.
 

El Nino

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Think of the universe as a box of scrabble letters. There is only one way to have the letters arranged to spell out the Gettysburg Address, but an astronomical number of ways to have them spell nonsense. Shake the box and it will tend toward nonsense, disorder will increase and information will be lost as the letters shuffle toward their most probable configurations. Could this be gravity?

As a metaphor for how this would work, Dr. Verlinde used the example of a polymer — a strand of DNA, say, a noodle or a hair — curling up.
I read that more closely and kind of went: OH ****.

Polymers? Why didn't anyone think of it before?

But seriously, I think its stupid to believe gravity is not real.
The effect is real, but the reason may not be what we once thought it was. Gravity may be an effect, not a cause.

I don't have a physics background, but I know a little about polymers. Conceptually, this is how I've put it together (don't put too much weight into this, kids, I don't know what I'm talking about):

It used to be thought that gravity was a fundamental interaction, meaning that if you have two objects with mass, gravitational pull would bring them together.

Meaning, gravity is the actor making these objects move.

The recent hypothesis is that there is no actor. Instead, each of those objects is composed of smaller particles that "carry" energy. All of those particles are interacting with each other. And as a result of those interactions, these two things of mass will start to move closer to each other.

Gravity, being a result of underlying causes, would then be what is called an emergent phenomenon. Snowflakes are a common example. Water molecules can form hydrogen bonds with each other, and they freeze in complex patterns when they become snowflakes. It's the properties of water that cause a snowflake to be formed, and in this new hypothesis, gravity is the snowflake, not the hydrogen bonds.
 

Ballistics

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I read that more closely and kind of went: OH ****.

Polymers? Why didn't anyone think of it before?



The effect is real, but the reason may not be what we once thought it was. Gravity may be an effect, not a cause.

I don't have a physics background, but I know a little about polymers. Conceptually, this is how I've put it together (don't put too much weight into this, kids, I don't know what I'm talking about):

It used to be thought that gravity was a fundamental interaction, meaning that if you have two objects with mass, gravitational pull would bring them together.

Meaning, gravity is the actor making these objects move.

The recent hypothesis is that there is no actor. Instead, each of those objects is composed of smaller particles that "carry" energy. All of those particles are interacting with each other. And as a result of those interactions, these two things of mass will start to move closer to each other.

Gravity, being a result of underlying causes, would then be what is called an emergent phenomenon. Snowflakes are a common example. Water molecules can form hydrogen bonds with each other, and they freeze in complex patterns when they become snowflakes. It's the properties of water that cause a snowflake to be formed, and in this new hypothesis, gravity is the snowflake, not the hydrogen bonds.
Great post, interesting insight.
 

Sephiroths Masamune

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What if everything we know is an illusion? What if man just trys to limmit or define something only for an attempt to understand it? We could be right , and we could also be wrong, but in the end we really won't be entirely sure.
 

Jim Morrison

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The concept of gravity used to bother me as a kid. I would be doing some research for some science project, and I would trace back the cause and effect of everything to the sunlight from the stars and how they generated heat and energy due to gravitational pull. But I couldn't figure out what gravity was or how it worked because that part was unknown or at least not published in books for gradeschoolers (yes, in a time before Wikipedia, when the Earth was still young).

And now the sucker dun exist. WTF?
Gravity is supposed to be carried by gravitrons, particles yet to be found, but they are believed to exsist.

Also, stars don't generate heat solely because of gravity. And yes, how it works exactly is unknown

(this is from the top of my head, someone correct me)

Gravity is seen as one of the four fundamental powers, each of them are transferred by specific particles/carriers. To think gravity is the result of something is the same as saying that strong nuclear force is the result of something. It's the result of interacting particles (gravitrons, assumed) between two masses.
 

CRASHiC

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Did you confuse "Robot Chicken sketch" with "reality"?

Because most everyone doesn't consider Pluto a planet anymore.

Or I have a feeling something went over my head.
Yeah, it went over your head since you didn't see it. In the sketch, when the scientist announces taht Pluto is no longer a planet, he goes mad with power and starts reclassifying everything and using it for his own gain.
 

El Nino

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I'm guessing this will make Newton's Laws crap now or something?
I think Newton's Laws still apply to objects close to the Earth's surface. It seems that this new hypothesis seeks to explain Newton's law of gravity.

Also, stars don't generate heat solely because of gravity.
I know. Nuclear fusion occurs at their cores when hydrogen atoms are compressed into helium. The thing that bothered me as a kid, reading up on this stuff, was what caused their compression?

The answer offered in the books was: gravitational pull.

Gravity is seen as one of the four fundamental powers, each of them are transferred by specific particles/carriers. To think gravity is the result of something is the same as saying that strong nuclear force is the result of something. It's the result of interacting particles (gravitrons, assumed) between two masses.
Yes, that's been the current theory. The new hypothesis that's being proposed links gravity to thermodynamics, which deals with heat, energy, entropy, and the conversion of heat into mechanical work.

Taken from the paper itself:

"Gravity is explained as an entropic force caused by changes in the information associated with the positions of material bodies."

"Changes in this entropy when matter is displaced leads to an entropic force, which as we will show takes the form of gravity."

Entropy is a measure of a system's disorder. The common example is ice melting into a glass of water. The system (the glass of water) is said to be increasing in entropy.

Taken on a cosmic scale, gases in space acting this way may give rise to gravitational force.

No, it hasn't been proven yet, but if it is true, it could explain why gravitons have never been found.

anyways, Timecube is simple for non snotbrains!!
Lol, all hail the might Timecube.
 

Jim Morrison

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I know. Nuclear fusion occurs at their cores when hydrogen atoms are compressed into helium. The thing that bothered me as a kid, reading up on this stuff, was what caused their compression?

The answer offered in the books was: gravitational pull.
Yup, such amounts of mass (the whole star) together interacts with gravitational pull, which is just one of the 4 fundamental forces that just happen. Big objects have big gravitational pull. Star pulled together, gets a centerpoint that is being compressed immensely, star is born!
Yes, that's been the current theory. The new hypothesis that's being proposed links gravity to thermodynamics, which deals with heat, energy, entropy, and the conversion of heat into mechanical work.

Taken from the paper itself:

"Gravity is explained as an entropic force caused by changes in the information associated with the positions of material bodies."

"Changes in this entropy when matter is displaced leads to an entropic force, which as we will show takes the form of gravity."

Entropy is a measure of a system's disorder. The common example is ice melting into a glass of water. The system (the glass of water) is said to be increasing in entropy.

Taken on a cosmic scale, gases in space acting this way may give rise to gravitational force.

No, it hasn't been proven yet, but if it is true, it could explain why gravitons have never been found.
I dunno man, I think heat is a whole different story, coming from the electromagnetic spectrum (another one of the four fundamentals). Heat is carried by photons as radiation, which is essentially what electromagnetism is. Radiation coming from an object.

Gravity doesn't seem like a radiation at all because it's an actual interaction between objects pulling towards each other. It can also be viewed as a sort of radiation yes, that pulls the other object in, but that's so different from all other forms of electromagnetism. I don't think a photon could carry the energy for gravitational pull to happen, which is why I don't think it's caused by thermodynamics.
 
D

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there is also the amount of energy in an atom which on macro scale is the temperature of the substance.
 
D

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it isn't radiated until the object becomes hot enough to start glowing
 

Jim Morrison

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It emits radiation that you can't see.

Imagine the whole electromagnetic spectrum (radio, microwave, infrared, visible light, ultraviolet, X-ray, gamma rays (probs forgot a few but ok)) to be this long:

__________________________________________()__________________________

() is the visible light. When radiation comes to a point where it is visible, it reached that and will pass that point soon and emit another form of radiation, not visible to the eye.

Just because an object isn't "glowing" doesn't mean it doesn't radiate something.
Everything has radiation.
 
D

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Guest
You really don't have to explain the electromagnetic spectrum to me.
It did make me remember a page from my physics book though.

I kinda got confused when I saw photon (I sometimes forget radiation = photon)
 
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