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Samus smash switch speculation thread

Fares612

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Sorry if this was asked already but...

Did they change Samus' final smash since E3? If you look at her character video on the website, it is her normal final smash. But during the direct last week, it shows her doing it and it included the special effects like for Dark Samus'
 

Diem

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Sorry if this was asked already but...

Did they change Samus' final smash since E3? If you look at her character video on the website, it is her normal final smash. But during the direct last week, it shows her doing it and it included the special effects like for Dark Samus'
What changes are you referring to specifically?

Whatever change it is, though, they probably did update it graphically. Expect a lot of graphical changes and improvements between the demo build and the finished product.
 

Fares612

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What changes are you referring to specifically?

Whatever change it is, though, they probably did update it graphically. Expect a lot of graphical changes and improvements between the demo build and the finished product.
I meant with all the particles and whatnot flying forward like in Dark Samus'

0:16

16:57
 

IsmaR

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All the character videos were done in what is now confirmed to have been an old demo build (E3 was using the May build).

They're adding a bunch of particle/background effects to just about every final smash now in what appears to be the latest demo build.
 

Fares612

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Jun 16, 2013
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All the character videos were done in what is now confirmed to have been an old demo build (E3 was using the May build).

They're adding a bunch of particle/background effects to just about every final smash now in what appears to be the latest demo build.
Oh I see. DId not know that.

Anyway hi IsmaR :) How have you been?
 

Shog

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I played Samus/Ridley during Gamescom and there are two things (I am casual don't forget) that I realized immediately :

1. one of my favourite tools, the Wii U neutral air attack, is even better than before! Quicker animation and landing lag is less/or easier to get auto-canceled.

2. Dash attack feels worse :(

Bonus:

Ridley has odd air movement, feels as slow as Dedede :( His Neutral Air is amaaazing.
 

_gold_

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I'm not too worried about dash attack. If I recall correctly, Samus' dash attack didn't lead to combos initially when Smash 4 came out anyway but with updates later on, the angle and knockback of the attack was changed which allowed it to. We'll see what happens though.
 

meleebrawler

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Pushblock gaming has a good analysis of Samus in Ultimate up
It's about time that people come to terms with the fact that if you want speedy ultra combos with Samus, you equip the Zero Suit. These specials are meant to be fully incorporated into her game, instead of an afterthought in favour of dash attack combos.
 

DungeonMaster

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I'm not so sure about that last one meleebrawler meleebrawler , let's see when the game comes out what they do to Zero Suit. If she loses her ladder combos, as I suspect she will, she may have a different combo tree altogether.
From what I can tell is dash-attack is nerfed but very *very* importantly the d-air and u-tilt are buffed because grounded spikes cannot be teched.
I *hated* not having reliable combos out of d-air and up-tilt, drove me absolutely nuts that you could not tech a footstool and could tech a grounded spike.
It was ********, made no sense. It was a game about "smashing" people but footstooling them into the stage was a superior option. So glad to see that burn and die.
If the demo holds firm to the final build it means the d-air and u-tilt combo trees become real. At 10 frames landing lag from d-air, assuming similar hitstun (a bad assumption) all of those combos into charge shot become real.
In smash4 they were always off by 1-2 frames, airdodge always won.
Bomb -> u-tilt -> CS is 50 damage and a lot easier to pull off than some of the stuff I've done in 4.
We may be trading less dash attack combos for big hit combos, which may be better. We'll see.
 
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meleebrawler

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I'm not so sure about that last one meleebrawler meleebrawler , let's see when the game comes out what they do to Zero Suit. If she loses her ladder combos, as I suspect she will, she may have a different combo tree altogether.
From what I can tell is dash-attack is nerfed but very *very* importantly the d-air and u-tilt are buffed because grounded spikes cannot be teched.
I *hated* not having reliable combos out of d-air and up-tilt, drove me absolutely nuts that you could not tech a footstool and could tech a grounded spike.
It was ********, made no sense. It was a game about "smashing" people but footstooling them into the stage was a superior option. So glad to see that burn and die.
If the demo holds firm to the final build it means the d-air and u-tilt combo trees become real. At 10 frames landing lag from d-air, assuming similar hitstun (a bad assumption) all of those combos into charge shot become real.
In smash4 they were always off by 1-2 frames, airdodge always won.
Bomb -> u-tilt -> CS is 50 damage and a lot easier to pull off than some of the stuff I've done in 4.
We may be trading less dash attack combos for big hit combos, which may be better. We'll see.
...eh? Exactly how ZSS goes about her combos isn't the point, just that they will always be longer and more flexible than Samus's, because that's just the kind of character she is. What else can she really be, given her kit? It has seen no significant differences from what I can tell.

Giving uncharged/partial charge shots less endlag is probably the most underappreciated buff there is at the moment. It gives them more of a separate niche over missiles as quicker disruptive options, with the latter being used to more to create openings.
 

kro_

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Has anyone tested her up-tilt in Ultimate? Does it still do more damage on grounded opponents versus aerial opponents?

I like her dash attack being a kill-move. After all, it's inspired by the shinespark, it's meant to be beefy. Then again, nerfing uair in conjunction really hampers her combo-game. It makes sense for the move to have a lot of landing lag, but there has to be some sort of compensation for that.
 

meleebrawler

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Has anyone tested her up-tilt in Ultimate? Does it still do more damage on grounded opponents versus aerial opponents?

I like her dash attack being a kill-move. After all, it's inspired by the shinespark, it's meant to be beefy. Then again, nerfing uair in conjunction really hampers her combo-game. It makes sense for the move to have a lot of landing lag, but there has to be some sort of compensation for that.
Dair. Is that really so hard to understand?
 

kro_

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Dair. Is that really so hard to understand?
Uair came out 12 frames faster than dair in Smash 4 and is much easier to combo with. The moves are hardly comparable. And what I said was that she should get some compensation for losing a great combo-starter, not that she needs more combo-starters.. Dash attack's compensation is that it's a fast, strong kill option now, but uair just seems all around worse.
 
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meleebrawler

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Uair came out 12 frames faster than dair in Smash 4 and is much easier to combo with. The moves are hardly comparable. And what I said was that she should get some compensation for losing a great combo-starter, not that she needs more combo-starters.. Dash attack's compensation is that it's a fast, strong kill option now, but uair just seems all around worse.
Yeah well, here's a news flash: most characters are losing strong tools they had in previous games in favour of new ones. Ice Climbers can't chain-grab, Bowser & DK can't uthrow-uair and Charizard can't Rock Smash, but they have explosive damage output, more fluid and versatile combo games with standard jumpsquats with stronger throws and the ability to switch to another character respectively.

Also, I don't consider Smash 4 uair to be a great combo starter, not with those hitboxes and Samus's floatiness. What it gains is being more consistent at connecting fully in the air, and that's all it needs to be a better juggle tool.
 

Jellybat

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It's about time that people come to terms with the fact that if you want speedy ultra combos with Samus, you equip the Zero Suit. These specials are meant to be fully incorporated into her game, instead of an afterthought in favour of dash attack combos.
time for an essay to shoot out my opinions and frustrations about the lack of hope other people have for Samus right now for some reason.


It honestly surprises me how negative people are about Samus in the comments of the video even though the analysis video specifically mentions many points against it such as how premature many people's opinions are about Samus, mainly being about how the dash attack no longer combos while also pointing out many of the the positive changes she has gotten so far.

If anything, we should be feeling quite hopeful that Samus might be overall higher in terms of viability than she was before considering the changes we have seen so far. Lets go the main points step by step, starting with the main adversary

dash attack and its changes:

- no longer combos as it used to from a non-sour hit

+ kills earlier
+comes out faster

in other words the move traded the potential to combo effectively for even more value as a mix-up tool alongside your spacing tools. Its definitely overall a nerf, but the move still holds the value of letting samus go into the offensive when the rest of her best tools are mainly aimed for spacing and keep-away at mid-range distance such as f tilt and zair. Its still capable of doing the same things it did in smash 4 as a tool of keeping your opponent constantly on their toes for it, just with far less reward from hitting it outside of dash-attack's new kill%. would love to see how the sour spot looks like now to see how well that can combo still though...

now the positives that people seem to completely undervalue for some reason:

* you can now charge in the air.

this change is HUGE when it comes to dealing with characters that generally did not give much time for you to get your charge up in neutral, mainly fast characters such as fox, captain falcon, sonic and so on. With the change you now have FAR more opportunities to get it up. The value of a fully charged shot cannot be understated. Its a massive source of pressure for your opponent to constantly worry just by existing, making them far more cautious and more prone to mistakes if they focus on it too much over your other tools. Considering the overall pressure of the charge shot and its tendency to make opponent shield alot we go to the next big change:

* OMG the grab changes

In many of my matches against opponents who know what their doing vs samus, the biggest flaw i always found with her was the inability to truly punish shield effectively and loss of the guaranteed shield break from super missile+ charge shot early on did not help this one bit. I always felt this lack of a decent grab was one of the biggest things holding samus back, as any decent opponent would heavily focus on using shield to deal with both zair and dash attack pressure effectively while making finishing the stock far more difficult as the grab cannot combo at high% or even kill until it gets unreasonably high. This all changes with 1 MAJOR change:

*the throw CAN kill at a reasonable % now.

This change to me is absolutely massive considering how effectively Samus conditions her opponents to rely on the shield to deal with many of her best tools. Now that the throw actually can actually kill without needing to go over 200+%, they simply cannot rely on the shield as much as before compared to when grabbing essentially did jack-**** before against high% opponents while making you vulnerable to a hard punish by a spot-dodge.

And it gets even better for the grab:

*d-throw combos more reliably now.

Many of the characters in smash 4 are capable of making comboing from d-throw very difficult as long as they DI away correctly, essentially making throw as a combo tool unreliable against anyone who knew what they were doing. Looking at the new d-throw this should no longer be a thing so you can very reliably get your damage off from any d-throw now while keeping the value at high% as a tool to get your opponent into a disadvantage state



So essentially the changes made a fairly bad grab into far more serviceable one. Its nothing outstanding compared to grabs like Ness or Mewtwo has, but i no longer get the feeling that it will be the biggest flaw Samus will have in this game, especially considering how majority of the grabs in this game have gotten the nerf treatment while samus gets a whole 10 reduction on her standing grab.

Honestly these changes alone should be giving hope for Samus' chances in this game compared to the previous entry. But there are even more changes that i don't consider as big but still very welcome additions such as:

* morph ball bombs from timed to proximity (while still keeping timed for locking down the opponent into shield like in the video!)


this essentially elevates the bomb from a tool that i mainly used for:

'mixing up getting back to the ground from air

' risk-free low reward edgeguarding tool

' gimmicky grab setups

To an actual neutral spacing tool. The current morph ball is essentially quite bad as a spacing tool as long as the opponent knew how the move works as they could literally just run past it and punish you for using the move. with proximity rules this is no longer possible and will instead likely give Samus an advantage state now as the opponent is either forced to shield or jump to get past the bomb if they want to get to you while the bomb is out.




* F-air has far less landing lag compared to before

this change for me is far more difficult to predict as i have not touched the game, but the move can very likely now be used more effectively as a neutral spacing tool now while still keeping its overall value as a ledge getup and air to air tool. It did lose some of its value as a good way to catch air dodges thanks to the new airdodge system. Overall i expect to see far more uses out of this move outside of its current uses now as the only real disjointed hitbox aerial samus has in neutral.


and lastly in short

* super missile waiting a little bit before moving

hello setups to a move i considered quite bad in all honesty before. (what else can i say?)




There are still more changes you could go over, but i feel i got the point across by now. there is no way Samus is worse than before if the only real nerf she got was the loss of losing her combos from dash attack while gaining so much more to many of her main flaws she was plagued by.

I for one im looking forward to this new Samus and figuring out all the new ways i can keep my opponents at the optimal distance while actually having far better tools to punish dash-shielding with better grab and morph ball bombs.
 
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DungeonMaster

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Do keep your hopes up! This is a new game, with the old game backbone.
We still have to see how z-air works in detail as well.
The full game isn't out yet, it's all wild speculation until the fat lady sings.
 

meleebrawler

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time for an essay to shoot out my opinions and frustrations about the lack hope other people have for samus right now for some reason.


It honestly surprises me how negative people are about Samus in the comments of the video even though the analysis video specifically mentions many points against it such as how premature many people's opinions are about Samus, mainly being about how the dash attack no longer combos while also pointing out many of the the positive changes she has gotten so far.

If anything, we should be feeling quite hopeful that Samus might be overall higher in terms of viability than she was before considering the changes we have seen so far. Lets go the main points step by step, starting with the main adversary

dash attack and its changes:

- no longer combos as it used to from a non-sour hit

+ kills earlier
+comes out faster

in other words the move traded the potential to combo effectively for even more value as a mix-up tool alongside your spacing tools. Its definitely overall a nerf, but the move still holds the value of letting samus go into the offensive when the rest of her best tools are mainly aimed for spacing and keep-away at mid-range distance such as f tilt and zair. Its still capable of doing the same things it did in smash 4 as a tool of keeping your opponent constantly on their toes for it, just with far less reward from hitting it outside of dash-attack's new kill%. would love to see how the sour spot looks like now to see how well that can combo still though...

now the positives that people seem to completely undervalue for some reason:

* you can now charge in the air.

this change is HUGE when it comes to dealing with characters that generally did not give much time for you to get your charge up in neutral, mainly fast characters such as fox, captain falcon, sonic and so on. With the change you now have FAR more opportunities to get it up. The value of a fully charged shot cannot be understated. Its a massive source of pressure for your opponent to constantly worry just by existing, making them far more cautious and more prone to mistakes if they focus on it too much over your other tools. Considering the overall pressure of the charge shot and its tendency to make opponent shield alot we go to the next big change:

* OMG the grab changes

In many of my matches against opponents who know what their doing vs samus, the biggest flaw i always found with her was the inability to truly punish shield effectively and loss of the guaranteed shield break from super missile+ charge shot early on did not help this one bit. I always felt this lack of a decent grab was one of the biggest things holding samus back, as any decent opponent would heavily focus on using shield to deal with both zair and dash attack pressure effectively while making finishing the stock far more difficult as the grab cannot combo at high% or even kill until it gets unreasonably high. This all changes with 1 MAJOR change:

*the throw CAN kill at a reasonable % now.

This change to me is absolutely massive considering how effectively Samus conditions her opponents to rely on the shield to deal with many of her best tools. Now that the throw actually can actually kill without needing to go over 200+%, they simply cannot rely on the shield as much as before compared to when grabbing essentially did jack-**** before against high% opponents while making you vulnerable to a hard punish by a spot-dodge.

And it gets even better for the grab:

*d-throw combos more reliably now.

Many of the characters in smash 4 are capable of making comboing from d-throw very difficult as long as they DI away correctly, essentially making throw as a combo tool unreliable against anyone who knew what they were doing. Looking at the new d-throw this should no longer be a thing so you can very reliably get your damage off from any d-throw now while keeping the value at high% as a tool to get your opponent into a disadvantage state



So essentially the changes made a fairly bad grab into far more serviceable one. Its nothing outstanding compared to grabs like Ness or Mewtwo has, but i no longer get the feeling that it will be the biggest flaw Samus will have in this game, especially considering how majority of the grabs in this game have gotten the nerf treatment while samus gets a whole 10 reduction on her standing grab.

Honestly these changes alone should be giving hope for Samus' chances in this game compared to the previous entry. But there are even more changes that i don't consider as big but still very welcome additions such as:

* morph ball bombs from timed to proximity (while still keeping timed for locking down the opponent into shield like in the video!)


this essentially elevates the bomb from a tool that i mainly used for:

'mixing up getting back to the ground from air

' risk-free low reward edgeguarding tool

' gimmicky grab setups

To an actual neutral spacing tool. The current morph ball is essentially quite bad as a spacing tool as long as the opponent knew how the move works as they could literally just run past it and punish you for using the move. with proximity rules this is no longer possible and will instead likely give Samus an advantage state now as the opponent is either forced to shield or jump to get past the bomb if they want to get to you while the bomb is out.




* F-air has far less landing lag compared to before

this change for me is far more difficult to predict as i have not touched the game, but the move can very likely now be used more effectively as a neutral spacing tool now while still keeping its overall value as a ledge getup and air to air tool. It did lose some of its value as a good way to catch air dodges thanks to the new airdodge system. Overall i expect to see far more uses out of this move outside of its current uses now as the only real disjointed hitbox aerial samus has in neutral.


and lastly in short

* super missile waiting a little bit before moving

hello setups to a move i considered quite bad in all honesty before. (what else can i say?)




There are still more changes you could go over, but i feel i got the point across by now. there is no way Samus is worse than before if the only real nerf she got was the loss of losing her combos from dash attack while gaining so much more to many of her main flaws she was plagued by.

I for one im looking forward to this new Samus and figuring out all the new ways i can keep my opponents at at the optimal distance while actually having far better tools to punish dash-shielding with better grab and morph ball bombs.
One more thing to consider about Charge Shot is how shooting anything less than full has less lag. This also makes it much more versatile, instead of being a last resort projectile when missiles don't cut it.

Edit: And if what I hear about being able to cancel charging by dashing on the ground is true, that honestly sounds almost as ridiculous as the stuff Cloud could do out of Limit charging, especially with dash-cancelled tilts and whatnot.
 
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