• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Sakurai and his own Kirby bias

1FC0

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
1,815
You have become a parody of yourself. Do you really think a completely clueless newbie can handle Cloud's Limit system?! At least as Kirby, you can flail around and do semi-decently in low-level play, and he even has multiple jumps so he can save himself after bumbling straight off a cliff.
How is Limit hard to use? I have not played SSBU Cloud and know little about him but from what I saw Limit was just like Smash 4 Limit but with a time limit added.

Also Cloud is pretty good for flailing around as well at least in Smash 4. Basically you just attack in the direction of the opponent and thanks to Cloud's great range and speed the timing and spacing is very lenient. Most of Cloud's Aerials are spammable. Cloud is also very strong so there is no need for gimping or worrying about hitting a KO move. Cloud's recovery is the only thing that is not very easy to use about him. There is a reason everyone has a pocket Cloud, and it is because Cloud is very easy to learn.

At least that was Cloud of Smash 4. I wonder what changes he got that make him so hard to play that I now have become a parody of myself for finding Cloud easy to play.
 
Last edited:

WaddleMatt

Smash Lord
Joined
May 7, 2018
Messages
1,065
Location
United Kingdom
Switch FC
SW 5950 1333 3717
ITT: People who think Kirby, one of Nintendo's largest franchises doesn't need representation from games released after 1996.

The fact that we have almost nothing significant from after this time period is absurd and shows a very wrong perception of the Kirby franchise.
 

Sabertooth

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 26, 2018
Messages
621
You have become a parody of yourself. Do you really think a completely clueless newbie can handle Cloud's Limit system?! At least as Kirby, you can flail around and do semi-decently in low-level play, and he even has multiple jumps so he can save himself after bumbling straight off a cliff.
I think I agree with you, but for the wrong reasons? Like I definitely don't think Cloud Strife should be the starting character in a Nintendo crossover adventure, but that's because he's an infamously Playstation-associated character. If anything Cloud is an extremely beginner-friendly character thanks to his quick and powerful attacks. The limit system can be ignored entirely, but even then it's not really that complicated (eli5, you charge up the meter and it makes your attacks stronger).

As for the OP, yeah, I pretty much agree. I think GCO is a pretty uniquely fun stage but there is seriously no excuse for Dream Land Game Boy, lol. That should have been a Triple Deluxe stage and I think everyone would agree with that.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
2,440
Location
Niigata, Japan
NNID
BahamurShin
3DS FC
3668-9945-1996
Sakurai also said that Ridley would not be in Smash Bros, that Smash Bros. would not feature real guns, that he would not include fighters from other fighting games, etc. I take anything he says with a grain of salt.

Kirby is simple but Cloud is even simpler and Cloud could have survived by juggling the beams with his Uair so Cloud would have been a better pick.
That... isn't relevant at all with why Kirby was the starting character in Adventure. I'll argue that Kirby is easier one to play.

And a lot of that stuff are things said from several years ago. When Smash started, he didn't know the series would eventually become this ambitious crossover event featuring Ryu and Ken or that he would eventually see himself downsizing Ridley. He originally wasn't going to add Villager because of the peaceful nature of his series, which is a fair point, until he brainstormed a moveset for him.
As time passes, people and their ideas can change. I'm not the same person I was ten years ago and I won't be the same one ten years from now.

I think GCO is a pretty uniquely fun stage but there is seriously no excuse for Dream Land Game Boy, lol.
"I've always wanted to make an homage to the first Kirby game I made and the console it debuted on. I think I have this neat idea for the 3DS version of Smash and how it work as a stage"... is what I think his reasoning might have been in his head. There is nothing inherently wrong with what they did there. I don't see why a creator needs to excuse themselves for wanting to implement their own ideas.
 
Last edited:

Mogisthelioma

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
3,596
Location
Ravnica
Sakurai also said that Ridley would not be in Smash Bros, that Smash Bros. would not feature real guns, that he would not include fighters from other fighting games, etc. I take anything he says with a grain of salt.

Kirby is simple but Cloud is even simpler and Cloud could have survived by juggling the beams with his Uair so Cloud would have been a better pick.
What? So you're implying that Cloud had a way of escaping Galeem.....and should be the star of a Nintendo crossover? You're not making any sense at this point.
 

1FC0

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
1,815
What? So you're implying that Cloud had a way of escaping Galeem.....and should be the star of a Nintendo crossover? You're not making any sense at this point.
I was actually kidding. I thought that would be obvious enough when I talked about Cloud juggling the beams with his Uair in order to survive. But then I got taken seriously and only criticised for the one thing about Cloud that I was not kidding about i.e. that Cloud would be simple enough to make a good fit for starter. So then I defended the idea that Cloud would be simple enough to be a good starter. Besides simplicity I think that Cloud would be horrible as starter for the obvious reasons.
 
Last edited:

Among Waddle Dees

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2017
Messages
390
Yeah, "Bias".

How much recurring content has modern Kirby actually introduced? Bandana Dee is probably the only element from post Return to Dreamland games that keeps reappearing, and he's only notable in that he's the "fourth main character" (if that was enough, Toad would've been in the series ages ago). I do think he'd fit right in if he was playable, but I'm honestly sick of hearing about his absence as if it was an insult. Compared to the current Kirby characters he's relatively minor. One of the best possible candidates from Kirby for sure, but still relatively minor.

Outside of characters, what else do we need? Stages are already a fine representation of all eras of Kirby to be honest, as outside of one-off, more "experimental" games, the aesthetic hasn't really evolved at all since RTD, which itself already felt like a mere modernization of classic games. A stage from something like Robobot would've been great though, as it differs greatly from previous games and could use a few fun elements from the game, but Ultimate didn't really focus on adding new stages outside of new series (and to add something from BotW and SMO, which are both arguably their biggest game releases in this decade) so that wasn't gonna happen anyway.

Then we have bosses, and come on, are you really gonna argue that choosing Marx comes from a position of bias?

There's also Spirits. And they're fine. I don't think there's even a single major character from the newer games who's missing.

The only thing we have left are assist trophies, and I guess we could have a few more modern characters in there. But to be honest, with the way the fandom reacts to some assist trophies it might be for the better if some characters are absent entirely. A Bandana Dee AT would cause a huge ****storm even if he wouldn't be making it to the game otherwise.

At the end of the day you could make this same argument with a lot of other series. Even Zelda, which gets a massive amount of new content with every Smash bros, has a lot of games, styles and "eras" that go completely neglected (such as the first three classic games and the vast majority of handheld releases) but you can't really attribute that to bias, can you? The truth is that adding references to all the games of all the different series is just about impossible. There will be major ommisions everywhere you look. In some cases it'll be classic games. In some, it'll be modern ones. In some it'll even be entire sub-series. You have to look at what we have and think if those elements are a good representation of the franchise as a whole, and you gotta question if whatever element you're requesting actually adds to that image. If you ask me, Kirby is in a good position. Sakurai or not, Super Star is still the most influential Kirby game, and it established a lot of elements that remain in the series to this day. And yes, I'd consider myself a fan and I have played most of the new games, in case you want to ask.
Hoo boy, where to begin?

In terms of characters, we have the "main trio" (Meta Knight and the original rivals), but I've never been a fan of this roster, not even in Air Ride's case. In Brawl it was excusable because Dedede also represented the Waddle Dees, but apart from a Smash 4 costume he no longer does. Admittedly, it's purely subjective. Fighters are a debatable subject for representation, but it really should be the ONLY conflicting argument.

Stages are NOT representative of Kirby as a whole. We only have the iconic but limited locales of Dream Land, the Fountain of Dreams, and the Halberd. That's it. Who genuinely has played more than two games where the Great Cave Offensive exists? Where's Another Dimension, or the notorious Shiver Star and its eerie song? How did we BARELY miss an Epic Yarn stage for a Woolly World stage that didn't even last?

As for bosses, yes, Marx would be acceptable, except he's another one-off from 1996. Which shouldn't be the case, but he has no connection to Star Allies or even Mass Attack in Smash.

Spirits: while they do indeed take from other games, the ratio of Sakurai content to others is still a bit unbalanced. One could argue we've covered all the bases, until we get to the part where Kirby 64 does not even HAVE any spirits. No Zero incarnation, no Adeleine, no Ribbon. HOW.

With Assist Trophies, yes Chef Kawasaki and Knuckle Joe are in Star Allies, but Nightmare isn't and has not been a part of modern Kirby. Those are the ONLY three assist trophies in the entire game. Why? Zelda has a similar roster problem as Kirby, but its assists are plentiful, and in conjecture with its flawed fighters they all span the length of Zelda's history, while Kirby has yet to get out of his 1996 representation. And that's the main problem.

It's true that Super Star is revolutionary and is the basis of many Kirby games, but Smash suggests it's the only true game of value, when it isn't. This is a problem that also applied to Smash 4, something I rallied against during the ballot days, and something that, go figure, was not fixed. Kirby might as well not have direct representation in Smash, it's that bad.
 
Last edited:

Putuk

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Messages
1,286
Location
None of your beeswax!
3DS FC
2723-9688-6533
Switch FC
SW-8387-2163-6416
You can argue all you want about how the modern stuff doesn't matter or does nothing different or isn't as "iconic", doesn't change the fact that many people LIKE stuff from the more recent titles. And Smash Bros just happens to be 100% fanservice.

Kirby games already play a lot like Smash, so it'd be neat if they added another character. They have all sorts of fun abilities that'd work well.
And man I'd love a stage from Robobutt, that game has some fantastic art direction.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,565
Someone answer this: how would any modern Kirby stage be significantly different from what we have now?
 

Captain Shades

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2018
Messages
775
I agree with OP, I’m tired of Kirby being stuck in an outdated era. The way I see it, only 1/3 of Kirby’s complete history has been represented outside of the bare-minimum excuses like trophies and spirits which are just there.

Sakurai only ever focuses on the three main titles and Air Ride all of which he made, which overall hurts Kirby as he’s done so much since then. Just look at Star Allies and how many iconic characters have been created since Sakurai left. Are we really going to demean large characters like Adeline, Ribbon, Gooey, Magolor, Taranza, Daroach, The Mage Sisters, Dark Meta Knight, Galacta Knight, Morpho Knight, Susie, Prince Fluff, and the Animal Buddies! Not to mention the 4th member of the Kirby crew, Bandana Waddle Dee.

To take on some points though.. Let’s look at what others have said

1) Kirby doesn’t need new stages as the ones he has represents the franchise as a whole
This is false, how could three games represent an entire series that gets a multitude of new releases, about one every two years. It can’t, even if newer titles use the same atheistics, because there will always be gameplay tweaks and new scenarios to experience. While Kirby may be formulaic to an extent, I could say the same about the ‘loved’ New Super Mario Bros titles, which are so similar to each other and their NES grand fathers, but still get two stages that are unique based around them. Kirby can easily squeeze more stages out of the modern era from taking inspiration from the Robotic design of Robobot, taking in the Yarn or toy aesthetics from Epic Yarn and Canvas Curse, to the Extra Dimensional space theme prevalent in most modern titles following RTDL. They could also do monuments from titles such as the Lor Starcutter or the Haltmann Industry, or even the Mirror World. Heck, even a more common location would be better than another generic Superstar stage, why choose The Great Cave Offensive, when a more recognizable stage can be crafted around the design of Dedede’s reoccurring castle. Why restrict levels to references from only Sakurai titles, when he has easily accessible locals from his games that go into future titles?

2) Series aren’t completely represented by stages, so why does it matter. (Just look at Zelda!)
It matters as Kirby is treated unfairly compared to most. The difference between Mario, Zelda, Pokémon, heck even F-Zero is that they all have stages referencing all points in history. While not every game can have a stage or assist, you at least see what an era was like.

Take Zelda for example, as that was brought up.

We have Temple to reference Ocarina or Time, and Great Bay for Majora, showing the big titles of the N64
We have The Great Sea and Bridge of Elden to reference the GC era with Wind Waker and Twilight Princess.
We have the Wii/DS era with Spirit Tracks and Skyloft
Finally the Switch/ Wii U era has BOTW

As for Kirby it’s Super Star which represents the SNES, and the NES/GBA era is represented by Adventure and Dream Land and that’s it. 2 eras, 3 consoles, while Zelda has 4 eras and 6 consoles represented in stages alone. Kirby has half of what Zelda has and Zelda is considered to be one of the worst represented franchises. Take in game account and it looks worse when comparing stages, take in characters and assists and we could just keep adding as Zelda alone brings the 3DS into the equation and Link Between Worlds as a represented title.

The problem with Kirby is that his stages don’t show evolution or changes in eras, but rather stick to a small pocket of time in which Sakurai created the character. Every franchise has their newest title(s) get stages in the next Smash, so why should Kirby be any different? If F-Zero, a game with minimal aesthetic changes can get stages that represent 3 different consoles and show the main titles of each, why can’t Kirby get more being the far more popular and successful franchise. F-Zero, Pikmin, Mother, Donkey Kong, and others all got stages based on newer titles in previous entries. With Kirby being one of the ‘main four’ I feel he should be representing newer titles as much as these guys.

3) Bandana Dee isn’t a character
I hate this argument, I feel it really belittles BD’s placement in the franchise when he really is a reoccurring character, even if he is just now sort of breaking out of his ‘Luigi, Player-Two Phase.’ He is most comparable to Luigi, a character added for multiplayer, but doesn’t serve much of a purpose as Mario titles could just have Mario, Bowser, and Peach with no issues in story. I don’t think it’d be fair to say that these player two characters don’t have a place though as obviously Luigi is loved and so is Bandana Dee. Both are also rising stars and have been given more as time goes on. BD has been made out to be Dedede’s sworn protector, Kirby’s best friend, and someone who is looking to be a protector and equal star to the trio. In a way he signifies a new era in the same way Luigi getting a personality did for GC. The best way to describe BD is that he is Kirby’s Luigi, May not always be essential, but has grown as a character into an intregal part of the franchise and not just a player two. He also represents the modern era, the last 3rd of Kirby’s life as the past decade has turned him into a famous Kirby character with him being given characterization in the Super Star remake, becoming playable in RTDL, being seen as a 4th member by the Anniversary collection, a buddy cheering on Kirby in the 3DS titles, a buddy actively helping his friend in 3DS spin-offs like Battle Royal, to being the first Dream Friend of Star Allies, really presenting the idea of the mechanic. (He was also the only playable character in Rainbow Curse outside of Kirby) .

4) Assists?
How can you even argue this one. Sakurai picked 3 assists and one boss. The boss is from Super Star...of course and one assist is from Nightmare in Dreamland. Then we get two generic enemies mainly based on Super Star....Why? He could have picked an actual character, but instead he choose generic enemies for 2/3 of Kirby’s assists. No Daroach or Adeline, maybe even Dark Matter.

5) Spirits?
He did a good job, but it’s also spirits. He just needed a jpg of a character to put them in, then but a little though in to represent them. If this is what Kirby fans should see as great representation of the modern era, than Golden Sun fans can’t complain because they got an assist and spirits to supplement them. That is clearly just as good as stages and characters that all other franchises receive.

6) Sakurai doesn’t want to take other people’s work
No, just no...
Other than the fact that Smash is a compilation of other people’s work that Sakurai had no hand in, its just false. Sakurai was a supervisor for most Kirby games. And to dispel someone’s point, no he never got kicked out from working on Kirby. Sakurai left Kirby to a team he trusted as he didn’t want to make sequels. He clearly has no problem with Kirby continuing, so why act like Kirby doesn’t have a future or isn’t doing anything. He didn’t even have the courtesy to change the down special to have more modern rock formations, opting to reference Zelda and Mario instead of Kirby itself. The best he’s done is change Final Smashes, but that just doesn’t feel like it matters. Now 2/3 of Kirby have jpgs and three final smashes to represent them, while his early days have full characters, 4 assists, a plethora of stages, spirits, and items. It just ..... sucks.
 

Mogisthelioma

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
3,596
Location
Ravnica
I was actually kidding. I thought that would be obvious enough when I talked about Cloud juggling the beams with his Uair in order to survive. But then I got taken seriously and only criticised for the one thing about Cloud that I was not kidding about i.e. that Cloud would be simple enough to make a good fit for starter. So then I defended the idea that Cloud would be simple enough to be a good starter. Besides simplicity I think that Cloud would be horrible as starter for the obvious reasons.
Obviously it sounded like you were kidding but it's hard to tell on the internet these days (especially when it comes to topics about Sakurai bias). Sorry.

Quillion Quillion
To answer your question about stages:

Another Dimension from Return to Dream Land could work similarly to Orbital Gate Assault except with:
  1. Better music in the background
  2. Players ride on the Landias and possibly the Lor Starcutter instead of generic Arwings and the Great Fox
  3. The Lor Starcutter could appear as a stage boss
  4. Doomers could act as KO'able stage hazards
  5. The dark matter and space crystals can act as stage platforms/hazards
  6. Food and other items can appear when stage hazards/bosses are defeated
  7. Magolor in his boss form (and possibly Magolor EX) can make a cameo
That's the only one that I've thought thoroughly about, but here are a few other ideas:
  1. A slow, rising screen-scrolling stage based on the Dreamstalk from Triple Deluxe
  2. A stage that takes place in the battle with Queen Sectonia in her Dreamstalk form, also from Triple Deluxe, with Sectonia acting as a stage boss
  3. Any kind of a stage from Planed Robobot. The art direction and style of that game is different than anything else we've seen from Kirby
  4. The battle with Void Termina from Star Allies, featuring none other than Void Termina acting as a stage boss and the stage switching castle siege style to VT's insides when it's defeated to commence the battle with it's other forms (in other words a four part stage rotating based on the stage boss)
  5. Any Epic Yarn stage (gonna be honest with you the fact that we lost an Epic Yarn stage to Woolly World may have been one of Sakurai's more stupid decisions)
 
Last edited:

RetrogamerMax

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
12,221
Location
Houston, Texas
NNID
RetrogamerMax2
I agree. I think having a boss from Metroid would have been incredible. I know that Ridley and Dark Samus can't be bosses due to being playable characters, and Mother Brain is an assist trophy, but in terms of bosses the one that comes to mind for most appropriate is probably a Queen Metroid.
They should have gotten rid of the old Mother Brain Assist and replace it with a new one and made her a boss too being her form from Super Metroid.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
A even better idea. Andross from 64, Adventures, and Zero would have made a awesome boss as well.
Problem with Andross is that the Hands kind of cover the hand thing.

I would ideally keep them to one per series as well, but maybe that's just me.
 

Mogisthelioma

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
3,596
Location
Ravnica
But why does Dee of all characters have to be a riding star? The "fourth main character" really should have been anyone else.
1. That is as subjective as it gets
2. HAL has obviously emphasized BDee's importance more than anyone else due to his simple design (like most platforming icons) and his separation from generic waddle dees via his bandanna, parasol, megaton punch and other abilities, and most importantly, his spear.
3. He's simply popular, the community grew a liking to him more than other recurring Kirby characters.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,565
1. That is as subjective as it gets
2. HAL has obviously emphasized BDee's importance more than anyone else due to his simple design (like most platforming icons) and his separation from generic waddle dees via his bandanna, parasol, megaton punch and other abilities, and most importantly, his spear.
3. He's simply popular, the community grew a liking to him more than other recurring Kirby characters.
Dee is only popular because HAL is pushing him. He would never be popular on his own merits otherwise.
 

Swamp Sensei

Today is always the most enjoyable day!
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 4, 2013
Messages
37,922
Location
Um....Lost?
NNID
Swampasaur
3DS FC
4141-2776-0914
Switch FC
SW-6476-1588-8392
Dee is only popular because HAL is pushing him. He would never be popular on his own merits otherwise.
That's...blatantly wrong.

If a company pushes a character no one actually likes.... No one will like the character. People aren't stupid.

Besides, it's actually the inverse, HAL is pushing him because he's popular. I mean come on. The little guy is adorable and appeals to underdog fans. I don't understand how people completely miss the appeal even if they don't like him.

At this point, you're in denial. "X is only popular because Y" is a terrible argument meant to erase any good qualities the work has on its own. Besides... It's an admittance that the thing is actually popular.. You just don't like it, fam.
 

Mogisthelioma

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
3,596
Location
Ravnica
Dee is only popular because HAL is pushing him. He would never be popular on his own merits otherwise.
Yes. That's how most characters become popular, with the exception of King K. Rool (likely due to the small emphasis on the DK franchise as a whole and removal of Rare).
 

ProfPeanut

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
727
Yes. That's how most characters become popular, with the exception of King K. Rool (likely due to the small emphasis on the DK franchise as a whole and removal of Rare).
I disagree with that idea heavily. I've seen plenty of characters become popular with no real backing behind them, and plenty more fail to become popular despite the amount of company backing they get.

I don't know how much of Bandana Dee's base was there from the start, but some notable number of customers must be out there buying paraphernalia of him, for HAL to keep producing the stuff.
 
Last edited:

Mogisthelioma

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
3,596
Location
Ravnica
I disagree with that idea heavily. I've seen plenty of characters become popular with no real backing behind them, and plenty more fail to become popular despite the amount of company backing they get.

I don't know how much of Bandana Dee's base was there from the start, but some notable number of customers must be out there buying paraphernalia of him, for HAL to keep producing the stuff.
Regardless, Bandana Dee is such a well developed character that it's no surprise that he became popular.
 

ProfPeanut

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
727
Kirby plays exactly the same in Star Allies as he did back in Super Star, and that's exactly why nothing past Super Star really matters - because you only need to play Super Star to play every other Kirby game that came after it (besides the spin-offs that aren't even part of this argument).

Just look at other characters who're still relevant in comparison. Mario learned all kinds of jumping maneuvers, plus the ability to correct himself midair, roll across the ground, dive forward, and etc. Link got new bombs, new weapons and an entirely new kind of overworld to explore. But Kirby? Kirby has the same base moveset in Star Allies that he did in Super Star! It's almost like none of Kirby's games past Super Star actually gave him anything substantially new.

This whole complaint is built on the idea that post-Super Star games have something worth representing in Smash, but...what, exactly? Not a single one of their gimmicks - ability mixing, Super Abilities, Hypernova, Robobot Suits - survived into the core Kirby experience. Besides Bandana Dee (who's already based on the Sakurai-era Waddle Dee), none of their characters or plotlines are ever relevant beyond the game they debut in. They're constantly cycled out and barely remembered, unless it's for Star Allies personal Everyone is Here promo. Nothing ever actually sticks. They're more like dressing to disguise that they're just the same Super Star formula.

Plenty of Japanese franchises are formulaic, but Sakurai-era Kirby wasn't one of them. Each of his games was something that contributed to Kirby as we know him, something done to add to the core experience itself - copying, friend allies, the feeling of having five different adventures in one cartridge. There isn't a single post-Sakurai Kirby game that I can say was just as impactful as those, and there's no excuse for that when Breath of the Wild and Odyssey could manage to reinvent their mascots.

TL;DR - Of course Kirby games are held to a higher standard when the franchise's very maker is the director of Smash. None of them have actually passed it.
 
Last edited:

Mogisthelioma

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
3,596
Location
Ravnica
Kirby plays exactly the same in Star Allies as he did back in Super Star, and that's exactly why nothing past Super Star really matters - because you only need to play Super Star to play every other Kirby game that came after it (besides the spin-offs that aren't even part of this argument).

Just look at other characters who're still relevant in comparison. Mario learned all kinds of jumping maneuvers, plus the ability to correct himself midair, roll across the ground, dive forward, and etc. Link got new bombs, new weapons and an entirely new kind of overworld to explore. But Kirby? Kirby has the same base moveset in Star Allies that he did in Super Star! It's almost like none of Kirby's games past Super Star actually gave him anything substantially new.

This whole complaint is built on the idea that post-Super Star games have something worth representing in Smash, but...what, exactly? Not a single one of their gimmicks - ability mixing, Super Abilities, Hypernova, Robobot Suits - survived into the core Kirby experience. Besides Bandana Dee (who's already based on the Sakurai-era Waddle Dee), none of their characters or plotlines are ever relevant beyond the game they debut in. They're constantly cycled out and barely remembered, unless it's for Star Allies personal Everyone is Here promo. Nothing ever actually sticks. They're more like dressing to disguise that they're just the same Super Star formula.

Plenty of Japanese franchises are formulaic, but Sakurai-era Kirby wasn't one of them. Each of his games was something that contributed to Kirby as we know him, something done to add to the core experience itself - copying, friend allies, the feeling of having five different adventures in one cartridge. There isn't a single post-Sakurai Kirby game that I can say was just as impactful as those, and there's no excuse for that when Breath of the Wild and Odyssey could manage to reinvent their mascots.
You're taking everyone's complaints out of context.

No one is mad that Kirby himself is still based on Super Star. You're right that the character Kirby hasn't changed much. What people are complaining about is the fact that Kirby content as a whole hasn't moved on past Super Star that much.

You're statement that characters have been cycled out is incorrect. Perhaps you haven't noticed the Dream Friends, a collaboration of most of the major characters that have ever appeared in Kirby games. No one (except for Escargoon and Prince Fluff) has been forgotten.

The content that modern Kirby games have to represent is extensive. Unique fighters, never before seen stages, great music, and plenty of charters, abilities, etc. that could appear as assist trophies, spirits, and parts of movesets. You're simply taking everything for granted since it wasn't as revolutionary as Super Star. No one is denying that Sakurai's Kirby games had major developments for the series, but if you look at the art direction, music composure, character development, or literally anything else between then and now you'll notice huge differences.

Kirby has been reinvented. Just because he isn't donning a new tunic or wears Cappy doesn't mean he's the same. Kirby has changed a lot since 1996. He may still be a pink puffball, but he has changed a ton. He's gone from a simple pink ball that defeats Dedede and Meta Knight to someone who values his enemies just as much as his allies and is defeating literal cosmic entities and machines hell bent on wiping out all life, things we wouldn't have been able to imagine in 1996.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,565
You're taking everyone's complaints out of context.

No one is mad that Kirby himself is still based on Super Star. You're right that the character Kirby hasn't changed much. What people are complaining about is the fact that Kirby content as a whole hasn't moved on past Super Star that much.

You're statement that characters have been cycled out is incorrect. Perhaps you haven't noticed the Dream Friends, a collaboration of most of the major characters that have ever appeared in Kirby games. No one (except for Escargoon and Prince Fluff) has been forgotten.

The content that modern Kirby games have to represent is extensive. Unique fighters, never before seen stages, great music, and plenty of charters, abilities, etc. that could appear as assist trophies, spirits, and parts of movesets. You're simply taking everything for granted since it wasn't as revolutionary as Super Star. No one is denying that Sakurai's Kirby games had major developments for the series, but if you look at the art direction, music composure, character development, or literally anything else between then and now you'll notice huge differences.

Kirby has been reinvented. Just because he isn't donning a new tunic or wears Cappy doesn't mean he's the same. Kirby has changed a lot since 1996. He may still be a pink puffball, but he has changed a ton. He's gone from a simple pink ball that defeats Dedede and Meta Knight to someone who values his enemies just as much as his allies and is defeating literal cosmic entities and machines hell bent on wiping out all life, things we wouldn't have been able to imagine in 1996.
Again, though, I could go for another character like Bandana Dee or Galacta Knight but anything else doesn't represent the whole of Kirby as well as the classic games. Cookie Country, Floral Fields, and Patched Plains would just be another Green Greens. Knuckle Joe made a big comeback into the newer games after disappearing since Super Star. Kirby has Ultra Sword and Dedede has his masked form.

What exactly do you want again?
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
Again, though, I could go for another character like Bandana Dee or Galacta Knight but anything else doesn't represent the whole of Kirby as well as the classic games. Cookie Country, Floral Fields, and Patched Plains would just be another Green Greens. Knuckle Joe made a big comeback into the newer games after disappearing since Super Star. Kirby has Ultra Sword and Dedede has his masked form.

What exactly do you want again?
It's not only about representing all of the games. Rosalina doesn't do that for Mario, but she's still in Smash. In a franchise like Kirby or Mario that are just so massive, it's okay to have fighters that aren't from every era.
 
Last edited:

Mogisthelioma

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
3,596
Location
Ravnica
Again, though, I could go for another character like Bandana Dee or Galacta Knight but anything else doesn't represent the whole of Kirby as well as the classic games. Cookie Country, Floral Fields, and Patched Plains would just be another Green Greens. Knuckle Joe made a big comeback into the newer games after disappearing since Super Star. Kirby has Ultra Sword and Dedede has his masked form.

What exactly do you want again?
When did I suggest any of those stages? I clearly suggested non Green Greens stages earlier, check my posts.

Yes, Knucke Joe is a big character, but to some extent he fits the "generic enemy" type more than Bandana Dee.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. You're suggesting that the final smashes represent modern Kirby decently somehow. They don't. They're just final smashes. If a single game can get a stage, fighter, etc., then it only makes sense for the same to apply to Kirby as well, not just spirits and small details.
 

11th

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
126
Wasn't going to post here, but I'm chiming in against my better judgement,

But why does Dee of all characters have to be a riding star? The "fourth main character" really should have been anyone else.
Late-ish reply, but:
My guess is that they wanted someone that fans would be a little familiar with, but who also wasn't already heavily tied to a certain part of the series' history to ensure that the game could form its own identity.

Dee was, at the time of Return to Dream Land's release:
  • Recent - KSSU was released in 2008, only three years before RtDL.
  • Recognizable - Almost anyone who knows Kirby will recognize a Waddle Dee, even one with a bandana and spear.
    • Marketable - Waddle Dees get a ton of merch for a reason.
  • Neutral - Not heavily tied to any other specific part of Kirby history because of his small roles up to that point.
  • Untapped/Malleable - He didn't have many set abilities yet, so they could mold him to fit the role they needed for the game.
  • Economical - They already had a working Waddle Dee model and a Spear model/moveset. He also had an easy way to fit into the story because Dedede was present. (Keep in mind that "economical" =/= "bad". The game had been stuck in development for six years before it resurfaced at E3 2011. I doubt that they wanted to mess around too much with the fourth character and risk things falling through again.)

Meanwhile, the animal friends, Gooey, Ado, and Ribbon had been MIA for 10+ years by the time RtDL was released. They all had pretty specific abilities or functions in their games, and they were (and still are) very closely associated with the Shimomura releases. There weren't many notable, non-generic, non-villainous characters for a while after that. Red, Green, and Yellow Kirby were just palette swaps. I suppose they could have brought back Daroach, but I don't recall him being very popular at the time. A generic Waddle Dee and Doo were options in Canvas Curse. KSSU brought back the generic helpers. I suppose you could argue in favor of a member of Meta Knight's crew, but which one? Prince Fluff eventually came along, but Epic Yarn was probably released too close to RtDL. It was also a side game that wasn't even a Kirby game initially, so ownership/creatorship issues might be in play, and the yarn gameplay might not mesh well with vanilla Kirby gameplay.

And, honestly, with the way that HAL has been handling characters for the past few games, I'm really glad that they went with Dee. He's a lot easier to squeeze in regular appearances with due to being a Waddle Dee and due to his existing ties to other major characters. If they had brought back someone or created a new character for the fourth slot, there's a chance that they may not have gotten the same treatment. (Try asking Meta Knight how Triple Deluxe went -- same for Dedede and Robobot.) That said, he definitely still has more potential, and I can only hope that they take a chance and dive into it someday.

-----

And to dispel someone’s point, no he never got kicked out from working on Kirby. Sakurai left Kirby to a team he trusted as he didn’t want to make sequels.
That's not exactly correct, or at least not the full story. We don't know exactly what lead up to his departure, but it's entirely possible that he and HAL weren't seeing eye-to-eye on everything.

What we do know is that he was interested in experimenting with other types of games and working with other people... but it's difficult to do so when you're working on mostly "sequels"* with the same group of people for ten years. It's possible that he wouldn't have minded using Kirby as a vessel for that creativity, if Air Ride was any indication, but maybe HAL didn't agree. (Ironically, Kirby did end up getting pulled into a lot of "experiments" anyway in the mid-late 2000s.)

*(I say "sequels" because Mr. Sakurai never actually did a direct sequel with Kirby like Mr. Shimomura did. He has always prioritized developing the gameplay first.)

-----

Anyway, I generally agree with the opinion that Kirby is somewhat poorly represented in Smash. I don't agree with it being an ego thing... but that's a complicated matter with a lot of inference on my part and not many hard facts, unfortunately.

However, I also think that HAL needs to play it a bit less safe with the series more often. Though, at the same time, not every safe thing that they've done has been bad by any means. After being a bit aimless during the DS and early Wii eras, RtDL was a very welcome and enjoyable return to the basics (with nice four-player). Triple Deluxe could have done more, but Planet Robobot was a nice next step forward. I do, however, think that Star Allies is a step back towards that "safe" zone. I just hope that, with a proper HD game under their belt, they feel more confident in trying something new (that isn't a gimmick) next time.

(I'm very tired, so sorry if any of this was too confusing to read. Odds are that I'm going to come back and edit this post 20+ times later when I'm not half asleep.)
 

Sid-cada

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
1,779
This whole complaint is built on the idea that post-Super Star games have something worth representing in Smash, but...what, exactly? Not a single one of their gimmicks - ability mixing, Super Abilities, Hypernova, Robobot Suits - survived into the core Kirby experience. Besides Bandana Dee (who's already based on the Sakurai-era Waddle Dee), none of their characters or plotlines are ever relevant beyond the game they debut in. They're constantly cycled out and barely remembered, unless it's for Star Allies personal Everyone is Here promo. Nothing ever actually sticks. They're more like dressing to disguise that they're just the same Super Star formula.
I'd argue that there was a single gimmick that lasted more than one game: Multi-plainer platforming. It started in Triple Deluxe and got refined in Planet Robobot. While somewhat absent in Star Allies (probably out necessity for multiplayer), having 3D Warp Stars in the Jambastion World Map at least tells me they have them on the mind still.

As for plot lines? While it's true that characters still typically only stay in the game they debuted in, that doesn't mean there isn't a now overarching story line to the series. There's a reason why recently Kirby Lore (TM) is a meme these days. Starting out with Returns to Dreamland, there have been efforts to give Kirby's universe a backstory by tying elements together into a whole. Magolor states that the Ancients who built the Lor Starcutter also built NOVA. Queen Sectonia was driven power-mad by looking too much at the Amazing Mirror. Star Dream is another NOVA, one of many technologies that the Haltmann Works Company based on that of the Ancients. Hyness wants revenge on the Ancients for being banished due to worshiping Void Termina, what is essentially the origin of both Dark Matter and its derivatives alongside Kirby, despite helping them against what is implied to be Galactica Knight's sealing. All of this is just the most important stuff, and ignores minor plot lines such as Magolor becoming a builder of theme parks or the mysteries of the Painter Sisters.

As for Stages, why not Halcandra? Halcandra is home to the Ancients, a big part of Kirby lore as I've previously stated. Mix conveyor belts, volcanic hazards, miniature suns, and floating rocks and mechanics to create a stage. Fill it with Easter Eggs to show prophesies and history of what the Ancients had done or have predict will happen. Include a stage hazard like Landia, the official protector, or the Metal General, who reappeared in Robobot as a mass-produced Security Force.

If a Metal-Lava place seems to Metroidy, how about Another Dimension? It's an important part of Returns to Dreamland (as the Final Level of the Game, and the likely place of the inter-dimensional portals throughout) and Kirby Star Allies (Heroes in Another Dimension takes place in... well, guess), and an important part of Planet Robobot's plot (Susie was sent here in an accident, and Haltmann's grief over the loss is a major plot point in addition to Susie's motivations). Get creative with the weird platforms while involving the Sphere Doomers as enemies. The background should be pretty in Another Dimension at least, no?
 

Captain Shades

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2018
Messages
775
Again, though, I could go for another character like Bandana Dee or Galacta Knight but anything else doesn't represent the whole of Kirby as well as the classic games. Cookie Country, Floral Fields, and Patched Plains would just be another Green Greens. Knuckle Joe made a big comeback into the newer games after disappearing since Super Star. Kirby has Ultra Sword and Dedede has his masked form.

What exactly do you want again?
The classic games do a poor job of representing the series as a whole TBH. So much has changed since Super Star with many characters going through arcs and stakes getting higher. In the time from Super Star to the present we’ve had the reforms of the two main villains King Dedede and Meta Knight. We’ve also built up a bigger emphasis on the space and extra dimensional universe surrounding Kirby as Kirby is finding himself in more pocket dimensions than he used to. Stakes are higher as everything Kirby fights seems to be an extra dimensional demon.

We also can’t forget the multiple story lines that have played out from the Squeaks appearing as villains, but then joining up to help Kirby in Mass Attack. We have the Dark Matter Trilogy of Dream Land 2 and 3 as well as 64 where Kirby fought the Dark Matter with reoccurring characters such as the Animal Buddies and Adeline. Even now a days we have Bandana Dee who went from Dedede’s scared body guard to a Capable fighter and Magolor who reformed to be a shop keeper. And we cannot forget Meta Knight’s accession into being the greatest fighter after beating now reoccurring character Galactaknight who has been trapped in a crystal, or Kirby’s butterfly becoming Morpho Knight. Other than that, fans have been exposed to the Mirror World, The Extra Dimension, Yarn, Clay, The Haltmann Industry, Dark Matter, and so much more that provides new locals not present in Sakurai’s titles.

As for gameplay, yes Kirby sticks to a standard with gimmicks, but what series doesn’t? Mario brought in FLUDD for one game, a gravity gimmick for two, and possession for one, what sets Mario apart? Does New Super Mario Bros really need two stages to represent a coin gimmick, when modern Kirby which is considered the same thing gets no new stages to represent it’s gimmick.

Kirby is poorly represented, so much has happened and changed since Super Star and to act like Kirby hasn’t evolved is just wrong. Kirby is long running now and has multiple eras of fans who grew up with different titles. I grew up around the RTDL time, so of course I want “my Kirby” represented, and I’m sure the Dark Matter Trilogy generation would like theirs too, or the weird DS and Wii era fans. Kirby just feels imbalanced and lacking in any new content in terms of Smash, while Star Allies feels more like a celebration of Kirby as a whole.
 

culumon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
143
The notion that modern Kirby doesn't warrant a stage because Super Star set the foundation for the series' iconography when Sm4sh introduced a New Super Mario Bros. 2 stage, a Super Mario 3D Land stage, a New Super Mario Bros. U stage and a Super Mario Maker stage is laughable to me.
 

Arcadenik

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
14,152
NNID
Arcadenik
However, keeping Marx as teh boss makes sense as, outside Dedede and Meta Knight, he may be the most well known Kirby boss (though, why did we get nothing from Metroid?).
You got Ridley and Dark Samus. :ultridley::ultdarksamus:
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,565
Kirby just feels imbalanced and lacking in any new content in terms of Smash, while Star Allies feels more like a celebration of Kirby as a whole.
That's just a function of how Smash has to divide its attention between many, many franchises while Star Allies only has one to work with.

Seriously, does Hyrule Warriors make anyone mad about Zelda representation?
 

Mogisthelioma

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
3,596
Location
Ravnica
You got Ridley and Dark Samus. :ultridley::ultdarksamus:
I'm pretty sure they mean a Metroid boss. The fact that we only have 6 standard bosses and only four of them correlate with series in Smash is stupid.
That's just a function of how Smash has to divide its attention between many, many franchises while Star Allies only has one to work with.

Seriously, does Hyrule Warriors make anyone mad about Zelda representation?
No, because Zelda is represented way better than Kirby is, and the thread is about Kirby. There are plenty of people who are disappointed in the way Zelda is represented but the lack of Kirby content for (seemingly) vague or pointless reasons is outrageous and therefore naturally commands more outcry from the community.
 

Captain Shades

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2018
Messages
775
That's just a function of how Smash has to divide its attention between many, many franchises while Star Allies only has one to work with.

Seriously, does Hyrule Warriors make anyone mad about Zelda representation?
No, it’s really not. Yes, Kirby Star Allies will focus more on Kirby, but Smash has been good about representing a multitude of different titles in franchises, so why isn’t Kirby the same when his own game shows how much has been created over the years.

As for your point about Hyrule Warriors, Smash does only offer a little less on representation than that game. They both contain references to Ocarina, Twilight, and Skyward Sword, as well as the added titles such as Majora’s Mask, Wind Waker, Spirit Tracks, A Link Between Worlds, and now Breath of The Wild. Outside of the Seasons games, what Zelda title does Hyrule Warriors have that Smash doesn’t have covered with either character designs, assists, or stages?

Compare Hyrule Warriors representation ratio with Smash to Star Allies and the imbalance is clear. Star Allies has a total of 9 games represented by unique characters in the Dream Friends section, only one of those characters has a title represented in Smash being Marx.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
I'm pretty sure they mean a Metroid boss. The fact that we only have 6 standard bosses and only four of them correlate with series in Smash is stupid.

No, because Zelda is represented way better than Kirby is, and the thread is about Kirby. There are plenty of people who are disappointed in the way Zelda is represented but the lack of Kirby content for (seemingly) vague or pointless reasons is outrageous and therefore naturally commands more outcry from the community.
Well, Rathalos and Dracula are my beefs. Galleon is odd, but this game is clearly about Smash anyway, not Nintendo, not games in general.
 

Captain Shades

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2018
Messages
775
Well, Rathalos and Dracula are my beefs. Galleon is odd, but this game is clearly about Smash anyway, not Nintendo, not games in general.
I agree, Rathalos and especially Dracula are odd picks. I know Castlevania and Monster Hunter are closely associated with Nintendo, but they just feel odd especially since there are way more iconic 3rd party picks for bosses. Seriously Sakurai, you have a villain almost as iconic as Bowser and decide not to use him for Sonic’s classic mode boss. Eggman should have come way before Dracula as a boss if 3rd parties are to get bosses.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
I agree, Rathalos and especially Dracula are odd picks. I know Castlevania and Monster Hunter are closely associated with Nintendo, but they just feel odd especially since there are way more iconic 3rd party picks for bosses. Seriously Sakurai, you have a villain almost as iconic as Bowser and decide not to use him for Sonic’s classic mode boss. Eggman should have come way before Dracula as a boss if 3rd parties are to get bosses.
Apparently being the most recurring third party doesn't mean much to him.
 

Mogisthelioma

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
3,596
Location
Ravnica
I agree, Rathalos and especially Dracula are odd picks. I know Castlevania and Monster Hunter are closely associated with Nintendo, but they just feel odd especially since there are way more iconic 3rd party picks for bosses. Seriously Sakurai, you have a villain almost as iconic as Bowser and decide not to use him for Sonic’s classic mode boss. Eggman should have come way before Dracula as a boss if 3rd parties are to get bosses.
DK: There could have been a King K. Rool boss, or perhaps something from the recent DKC games.
Metroid: Any form of Ridley or maybe Mother Brain.
Yoshi: Yeah I dunno. Kamek?
Earthbound: Bring Porky back!
Fire Emblem: Grima???
Sonic: Eggman
Street Fighter: M. Bison, c'mon.
Splatoon: DJ Octavio?
 
Top Bottom