Runaway playstyle

[Jim_P]

greetings

As I started looking for openings and baiting opponents in neutral with lasers+dashdances/wavedashes, i could figure out when to attack against most chars and playstyles. Good opponents actually just wait for me to mess up and dashdance grab me, overshooting or doing nothing gets the job done. Foxes or Falcons on the other hand are waaay too fast to catch and i end up usually throwing out a spaced attack, followed by spotdoge to make them whiff a grab and shine (i know xD) and convert off of 1 or 2 openings. What messes me up are foxes that fulljump nair/drill SAFELY (fading back) and then dashing back, which is impossible for me to catch. Now falcos fullhop sucks cuz you can see it from a mile away and react pretty easely, no problem for me at least. Foxes fullhop is just perfect for jumping over shorthops. CC doesnt work against drill.
My last resort is lasercamping them to make them come to me and stuffing approaches, but this way I only get very few shines for combos. What am I supposed to do as slow falco when fox is moving so fu**ing fast??
Oh, and cornering them is useless for starting combos, as they can just fulhop over my shorthop, or runn to center under my fullhop, plus the risk of getting thrown offstage is big when attacking at the egde.
help

 

[FE_Hector]

If a Fox is loving his fullhops in neutral, then just try to get underneath him and utilt. If he's doing FH drill, jump into it and mash shine (in the air) and you'll be able to get an opening off of it.

One thing that one of the better players at NCSU told me recently that I'm really trying to act on more is "Falco's mixups start at the SH." You can mix up your laser heights, tomahawk, waveland out of it, throw a high aerial, throw a low aerial, or DJ at the last second if you want. Should you choose, you could even not jump at a time when your opponent expects it.

One of the big things I'm gonna start doing vs Marth's who just wanna punish Falco's aggro nature is SH like I'm gonna do a stupid dair and WL forwards or backwards and try to get something off of whiff punishing them. Doesn't have to be a massive punish, but at the end of the day it makes them less confident in their gameplan and I can start mixing up other stuff past that. I haven't theorycrafted with it against other characters, but I'm sure it'll have some use.

Directly addressing your question about what to do vs Fox, it depends on their playstyle. You can get a LOT of mileage against Fox's who just wanna chase you down by randomly WDing back to shine or throwing out a retreating AC bair.

Finally... lemme just link you to this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRa7249dBWk Mango's a genius

 

[Klemes]

Dude. Just bair.

-AC bair in place beats shffl nair/drill. Or dair in place/slightly fadeback to open him up big time, especially if he's overshooting.

-Fadeback AC bair beats FH approaches. If he FFs he eats a strong kick, with no FF you have time to dash back in with a dair (if he landed) or nair (he's still airborne). If he fades back and/or empty lands (this is good to get a reaction out of you : run up grab if you throw a panic utilt, run up shield to catch a braindead aerial from you) laser>grab/shine/laser>laser>laser... If he's visibly getting pissed off by fadeback AC bair>laser, turnaround and dair in place instead of laser, that'll catch him trying to hit you before your laser even comes out.

Winning a majority of exchanges, even if they don't turn out into fat combos, should give you momentum, and make fox question his choices. That will make his either play more conservative (gives you more room to lock him down and find good trades/zoning aerials), panic/"get creative" in his offense (CC shine, CC dsmash at high% for a good laugh), make him more predictable. That's when you can start doing big callouts such as utilt his landing, basically your best combo starter at all %.

Finally when he's cornered. You can catch his FH with your own. Lasers will irritate him way more than usual. He's 10x more likely to shield if you close in on him, since he can't DD/dash back. Just DD and run up grab/laser>grab(laser>dtilt small shield)/nair>shine>grab. Mix up fthrow offstage and uthrow (shine>WL on plat/dair on DI offstage).

 

[Jim_P]

thanks for all the advice so far.
i've been trying to simply stuff his approaches and then slowly getting more aggressive. its a process...
ive seen them reacting quite easly to my ac bairs, like dashdance grabing them.. every time, like wtf?! also, how can i get better at punishing oos strong attacks like cf's knee or stomp, thesw give so much shieldstun, i end up rolling or spotdodging way too often.
and foxes shieldpressure messes me up.. should i try grabing after his shine move? as other options seem too slow?
example: nair-shine-nair -->> grab by me? rolling out of pressure is so bad xD

side question: is cf's knee to gentleman safe? or can i release shield after the knee and cc his gentleman to counterattack?

 

[CP Adagio]

side question: is cf's knee to gentleman safe?

Look around you









Where do you think you're posting this?

 

[Jim_P]

Where people know how to punish opponents as falco, duh?

 

[CP Adagio]

Where people know how to punish opponents as falco, duh?

I think you'd have more success asking the falcon boards considering you're asking a character specific frame advantage question

 

[Crooked Crow]

Where people know how to punish opponents as falco, duh?

Yeah, but people here play Falco. You'll want to head on over to the Falcon boards.

 

[CP Adagio]

falcos fullhop sucks

 

[FE_Hector]

thanks for all the advice so far.
i've been trying to simply stuff his approaches and then slowly getting more aggressive. its a process...
ive seen them reacting quite easly to my ac bairs, like dashdance grabing them.. every time, like wtf?! also, how can i get better at punishing oos strong attacks like cf's knee or stomp, thesw give so much shieldstun, i end up rolling or spotdodging way too often.
and foxes shieldpressure messes me up.. should i try grabing after his shine move? as other options seem too slow?
example: nair-shine-nair -->> grab by me? rolling out of pressure is so bad xD

side question: is cf's knee to gentleman safe? or can i release shield after the knee and cc his gentleman to counterattack?

Gonna look at it question by question

1) If they're ALWAYS reacting to your AC bairs, then there's a few things that could be going on here. First is that you're doing them predictably. One of the big things with Melee is that if you're predictable and get read, almost nothing is safe. Also, it's possible that you're not ACing the bair and end up with ridiculous lag that's easy to grab. Alternatively, it could be that you hit the AC bair and then do something predictable afterwards and get grabbed for it. Even if you're doing nothing because you're not sure precisely how much landlag you have, that's still something you can get punished for the instant your opponent realizes what's going on.

2) If Falcon is stomping or kneeing your shield and you're messing up OoS, it's probably more that you're not used to the amount of shieldstun it deals than anything else. If you have a training partner with even a mediocre understanding of the game, just ask them to knee/stomp your shield enough that you're comfortable understanding when the shieldstun itself is over. You kinda gain a feeling for things like this over time, but knowing precisely when you're actionable is simply a matter of repetition/ trial & error.

3.) First off, remember that Fox has... I think objectively the best shield pressure in the game, frame data-wise. Nair -> shine is safe. Shine -> nair is safe too, but only if he's doing the nair as he fades away from you. If he's doing nair -> shine -> nair -> grab, you should be able to WD OoS to escape the pressure between the nair and the grab. Alternatively, nair OoS MIGHT be fast enough depending on when he throws out the nair. Instant nair should get beaten by your nair, but if he delays it a bit you're fine. Additional thought: to test how good they are with it, do the WBallz AC bair -> immediate utilt. Significantly decreases their time to react and catches a lot of people.

4.) I know that you can't shieldgrab a safe knee on shield, and that would lead me to believe you can't shine OoS it either (the shield push and range of it should make it so you can't shine it either way if he spaces). Anyhow, you MIGHT be able to drop shield and CC/ASDI down against the jabs, but against the 3rd hit, the one you actually gentleman, you might not always get a true CC, which leads to its being a bit risky. If he's trying to knee -> gentleman your shield and you've got a solid read on that, just roll out because there's nothing wrong with it in that situation. The mixup comes when he knees -> read your roll, but you've got more issues at that point.

(Sorry for not responding too quickly, got hurt and was staying off tech to

 

[Jim_P]

@adiago: wtf? you really think criticizing a fairly new player helps the community to grow? you really are what melee needs <3

FE_Hector
reacting to an AC bair isnt too hard, since they know i'm on defense. I'm sure i ac it, cuz i can put out an utilt immediately, no l-cancel dust appears on landing. Mixing up between ac bairs -dd- ac bair - utilt. they still get trough my wall.

so there is basically nothing i can do when the fox hits my shield with either dair or nair and wants to shinegrab? shine oos maybe, grab is on frame 9 right?

if falcons knee my shield, its a 50/50 between rollchase and gentleman then?

 

[Klemes]

Yo. Chill out my dudes.

when fox hits your shield you can buffer roll. Shine OoS only when you catch him with an aerial that hit way too high on your shield. you can make it happen more often by angling your shield up when he's falling on you.

Alternatively, you can stay at a distance where only shffl nair can reach you (DD, bait with utilt or empty jump) and hold down to CC shine him.

Edit : falcon kneeing your shield shouldn't be a big issue. Challenge him every time he jumps with high laser, bair, utilt, aggro nair... Knee is slow. Hitting a strong knee very low on your shield, that shouldn't happen all that often. Shine OoS if it hits high on your shield. Or you can always roll out, FH to escape, SH fadeback dair... I mean it's not even that big of an advantage for falcon really. If he catches your jump with the first jab, you'll be DIing out anyway and nothing will happen ( If he does the full gentleman he even eats an fsmash/dair ).

 

[FE_Hector]

@adiago: wtf? you really think criticizing a fairly new player helps the community to grow? you really are what melee needs <3

FE_Hector
reacting to an AC bair isnt too hard, since they know i'm on defense. I'm sure i ac it, cuz i can put out an utilt immediately, no l-cancel dust appears on landing. Mixing up between ac bairs -dd- ac bair - utilt. they still get trough my wall.

so there is basically nothing i can do when the fox hits my shield with either dair or nair and wants to shinegrab? shine oos maybe, grab is on frame 9 right?

if falcons knee my shield, its a 50/50 between rollchase and gentleman then?

Alright, well if he's managing to make it through your defensive hitboxes, you still needa acknowledge that other options exist: not being defensive. If he's waiting for you to throw out a defensive hitbox, you could elect to not throw out anything at all. Maybe SH and head back with it and throw out the bair super late so you get the strong one after baiting him into thinking that you elected to NOT throw out any hitboxes. If this starts getting called out, depending on range you can probably still just safely approach him instead. As another possible mixup, SH and do a waveland forwards or back to mess up his spacing. Mixups on mixups.

If he places the nair low (and as such, safe) on shield, I actually don't think that you have anything you can do vs the PERFECT shinegrab. As Klemes pointed out, though, it's also possible to simply not shield in the first place. If he's messing up even a bit with his shield pressure, you oughtta be able to buffer a roll out. I'd focus a bit more on avoiding the hit in the first place, though. You've got a LOT of options available to you.

 

[CP Adagio]

@adiago: wtf? you really think criticizing a fairly new player helps the community to grow? you really are what melee needs <3

I really don't care how good or bad you are dude, anyone who says Falco's full hop sucks deserves to get Memed on

Edit: Oh yeah I forgot to thank you for repeatedly reporting my posts because you don't like my joke

 

[FE_Hector]

I really don't care how good or bad you are dude, anyone who says Falco's full hop sucks deserves to get Memed on

Edit: Oh yeah I forgot to thank you for repeatedly reporting my posts because you don't like my joke

Mediator time: Your original post was pretty funny overall, but if you'd explained why you felt it was good it would've helped. (It actually is sorta annoying imo having such a high full hop sometimes because you're not always tryna touch the clouds when you jump, but that's besides the point.)

As far as what Jim_P did, reporting something multiple times wasn't strictly necessary, nor was his snarky remark. We're here to help each other, not start fights.

 

[Jim_P]

ok, i got some progress
my dashdance got better to avoid getting hit that often, and dashin away and closing the distance with wd into shine works pretty well.
angling the shield up and shine oos vs fh nair works like a charm.
and for strong hits on shield, i watch for the little circle that appears when the shield gets hit. after that i can punish consitently.

thx for the help!