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Rosalina's 1.0.4 Patch Change Impressions

Mario & Sonic Guy

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As we all know, the upcoming patch for Smash 3DS will be making some changes to the characters, including Rosalina. So far, the following are the changes that have been confirmed, based on Wii U footage...
  • The Luma will now take ~12.55 seconds to respawn, compared to the original ~8.75 seconds.
  • The Luma can no longer attack if Rosalina gets grabbed.
Feel free to bring up your thoughts on the changes here, but please keep all conversations civilized.
 

Clemente

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The dramatics are a little surprising to me because if the nerfs are limited to Luma being unusable while grabbed and the respawn timer nerf, I still see Rosalina as being top tier. Because those are just a couple slices off the top of a big mountain of strengths.

I'm not saying "more, more, more!" and that they should get rid of her strengths. But for a Rosalina main, you still have an amazing character on your hands... in fact, there is really nothing they could do to Rosalina to make her a bad a character IMO. So I don't understand the fuss.

Also, am I the only one who thinks that the respawn timer is still the main nerf? Because I saw more of a pushback about the disabled Luma while grabbed.
 

ParanoidDrone

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The respawn timer nerf is an extension of a mechanic we already have to deal with; Luma dies, we wait a while for it to come back. Now we have to wait 5 more seconds than usual. *confetti* It's not like Rosalina is incapable of playing defense during that time, the only thing she really loses is safe pressure.

Also some of us thought 8 seconds was weirdly short so we're generally fine with it.

Also @ Mario & Sonic Guy Mario & Sonic Guy is there a video source for the Luma can't attack while grabbed thing?
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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@ ParanoidDrone ParanoidDrone : Sources came from yesterday's Smash Wii U demo that certain GameStop stores were holding.

Hey, just played the Wii U version and one of the tips that showed up between loading screens informed me of this. So, yeah. It said something along the lines of "when rosalina is being grabbed luma will dance around frantically and cannot be controlled". You can still hit your opponent right after they throw you, though.
 

Warlock*G

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Also, am I the only one who thinks that the respawn timer is still the main nerf? Because I saw more of a pushback about the disabled Luma while grabbed.
I also think that the respawn timer nerf is the main nerf, although not an important one.

Moreover, from what i understand, some people made more of a fuss about the other nerf because they perceived it as removing part of Rosalina's uniqueness (as Rosie was, pre-patch, the only character who could get out of a grab in that particular fashion).
 
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Clemente

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I guess I understand the angle that it's a removal of a unique feature, but in terms of Rosalina being made weaker, I think the extension of Luma's respawn timer is a much bigger nerf. Even if it's only about 4 or 5 seconds longer, it amounts to a lot more vulnerability for Rosalina if you look at the whole duration of the match.

(Not that I don't think the nerf for Luma while Rosalina is grabbed is big too)
 
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ParanoidDrone

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Somewhat hilariously, I went ahead and submitted a link to the other topic on Reddit in the absence of video or photo evidence, only to find it got itself locked in the time it took me to get it all done. I guess it's all for the better, this way there won't be an influx of posts complaining about it. (Or supporting it.) The ones that care enough to find this thread are the ones smart enough to not be idiots about it.
 

Blazin'

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I would actually like to see some hard evidence as well. As a Rosalina main, the whole "Luma not being able to attack while Rosie is being grabbed" thing is kind of... weird, and it actually makes me kind of angry. It was showcased in Rosalina's reveal trailer, so why take it out? I just really don't understand.
 

Aunt Jemima

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The only reason I like the nerf to Rosalina's Luma being able to attack is Inhale. When Kirby ate Rosalina, Luma would follow her around while she's in Kirby's mouth, ending up with Kirby never being able to use Copy.

However, if this doesn't affect command grabs, then I cri.

Most characters can just throw Rosalina into Luma, AFAIK.
 

Clemente

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I don't understand how being shown in the reveal trailer should 'immortalize' the feature. It's clearly overpowered, and they're removing it.
 
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Insh

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I don't understand how being shown in the reveal trailer should 'immortalize' the feature. It's clearly overpowered, and they're removing it.
It was never overpowered because there was always counter play to it.

If the two are separated, grabbing Rosalina is completely safe, and there's no breaking out of it.

If Luma is near, some pummels can keep Luma from breaking the grab, and immediately throwing Rosalina gives Luna no time to react when she gets grabbed.

Making this kind of change only makes already existing counter play brainless, and only makes the matchup easier for fast characters.

I see this as a huge Nerf to her viability because of how susceptible to grab follow-ups she is. With the likes of Sheik, Diddy, Greninja and Sonic performing well in high level play, giving her the inability to break from their devastating throw combos makes her a completely inviable choice against any character with speed. Especially when you consider how unsafe she is to land without getting grabbed already. Against some characters, she already can't recover high, and she can be easily ledge guarded.

This is a downright belligerent Nerf, and will really, really hurt her viability in high level play where grab combos are extremely common.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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It was never overpowered because there was always counter play to it.

If the two are separated, grabbing Rosalina is completely safe, and there's no breaking out of it.

If Luma is near, some pummels can keep Luma from breaking the grab, and immediately throwing Rosalina gives Luna no time to react when she gets grabbed.

Making this kind of change only makes already existing counter play brainless, and only makes the matchup easier for fast characters.

I see this as a huge Nerf to her viability because of how susceptible to grab follow-ups she is. With the likes of Sheik, Diddy, Greninja and Sonic performing well in high level play, giving her the inability to break from their devastating throw combos makes her a completely inviable choice against any character with speed. Especially when you consider how unsafe she is to land without getting grabbed already. Against some characters, she already can't recover high, and she can be easily ledge guarded.

This is a downright belligerent Nerf, and will really, really hurt her viability in high level play where grab combos are extremely common.
And we must remember the following video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRba_M7Srn4

It didn't matter that the Luma was around, as Falco could still throw Rosalina around without any interference.

And now that the Luma isn't able to attack at all, I fear that this nail in the coffin could really put Rosalina in a bad tier spot, while the likes of Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Greninja are still up high on the top tier throne.
 

Gea

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I don't understand how being shown in the reveal trailer should 'immortalize' the feature. It's clearly overpowered, and they're removing it.
You know, in the last thread you kept saying that people were personally attacking you. Here's the thing: You keep making sweeping statements like, "It's clearly overpowered." Howso? It isn't clearly overpowered. Plenty of characters have safe throws vs her (many throws are also invicible during the duration of the animation) and other dashgrabs push Rosa too far away from luma. Additionally, any tournament data currently points to the opposite. There is not a berth of Rosalina players dominating the scene. All data points to the opposite of what you are suggesting. Could she have become an overwhelmingly dominating force? Sure. Had it yet happened? Hardly.

If you want your opinion to be treated with respect, try laying off of the extreme opinions. If you're still going to voice them, try to give some sort of explanation or data.

As for her nerfs, they don't exactly facilitate player interaction. The solution was something more like keep the timer but lower Luma's health. The fact that players are now often going to be avoiding direct confrontation for 13ish seconds when Luma can and will be killed in a single hit (which happens with regularity on smaller stages) is asking for less aggressive play. The grab nerf is disappointing if true because as others have pointed out, it had counter-play.

This also sets a bad precedent where characters are more likely to be nerfed if they are perceived to be good instead of buffed if they are seen to be bad.
 

Insh

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And we must remember the following video...


It didn't matter that the Luma was around, as Falco could still throw Rosalina around without any interference.

And now that the Luma isn't able to attack at all, I fear that this nail in the coffin could really put Rosalina in a bad tier spot, while the likes of Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Greninja are still up high on the top tier throne.
I actually forgot about ZSS. That doesn't look good for her viability.
 

Phenomiracle

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Smart realization by Sakurai's team, I'm happy to see that Luma's respawn time has been increased as I hoped it would. Almost four seconds is a bit jarring, in the scale of an entire match, but we'll see how Rosaluma mains work around that. Probably just another four seconds of utilizing Rosa's excellent evasion game, really. Anything to put more mental pressure on a Rosaluma player is a plus.

I do hope we see one or two nerfs to the likes of fast characters; it is slightly, if only ever so, unfair that only Rosaluma had to seemingly bear the brunt of the heavy nerfs.
 
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icraq

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I'm not doubting the credibility, but a video or picture would help.

Also I'm trying to farm Reddit karma and self-posts don't do that. <.<
If an opportunity presents itself again I'll try to get video. It would be horribly embarrassing if I somehow saw what I didn't want to see, mind you I was in shock of playing Smash 4. After reading the tip and others reacting to it around me, I tried to attack once whilst being grabbed and being unable. But we'll all find out soon enough.
 

ChikoLad

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Luma respawn timer: Fine, it barely feels like a nerf to a good Rosalina player, but is good for good players of other characters.

Removal of Luma being able to attack while grabbed: Contradicts the Palutena's Guidance on Rosalina, contradicts her trailer, contradicts an existing loading screen tip, removes uniqueness, and was not problematic at all, especially since other characters have arguably worse "rule breaking" mechanics.
 

Gea

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The respawn timer is kind of evading the point that Luma rarely died due to damage but more likely just got lovetapped off.
 

ParanoidDrone

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And we must remember the following video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRba_M7Srn4

It didn't matter that the Luma was around, as Falco could still throw Rosalina around without any interference.

And now that the Luma isn't able to attack at all, I fear that this nail in the coffin could really put Rosalina in a bad tier spot, while the likes of Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Greninja are still up high on the top tier throne.
...wow that Rosalina sucks. But that's not really fair, we've had two months since then to learn and improve.
 

ChikoLad

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The respawn timer is kind of evading the point that Luma rarely died due to damage but more likely just got lovetapped off.
I agree, but at the same time, I can see why people thought 8 seconds was too short. Because even if he was just shoved off, he could potentially come back too quickly for you to do anything, especially if you are a slow fighter and Rosalina just stalls at the opposite edge of the stage.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Smart realization by Sakurai's team, I'm happy to see that Luma's respawn time has been increased as I hoped it would. Almost four seconds is a bit jarring, in the scale of an entire match, but we'll see how Rosaluma mains work around that. Probably just another four seconds of utilizing Rosa's excellent evasion game, really. Anything to put more mental pressure on a Rosaluma player is a plus.

I do hope we see one or two nerfs to the likes of fast characters; it is slightly, if only ever so, unfair that only Rosaluma had to seemingly bear the brunt of the heavy nerfs.
Agreed. I find it to be very disturbing that Rosalina is getting the heavy nerfs, and yet there are no reports of the other high ranking fighters getting messed up at all.

Oddly, the only other nerf that I've heard is that Bowser users can no longer win by committing suicide with Flying Slam if they don't have one stock more than their grabbed opponent. This probably applies to Ganondorf and his Flame Choke as well.

Luma respawn timer: Fine, it barely feels like a nerf to a good Rosalina player, but is good for good players of other characters.

Removal of Luma being able to attack while grabbed: Contradicts the Palutena's Guidance on Rosalina, contradicts her trailer, contradicts an existing loading screen tip, removes uniqueness, and was not problematic at all, especially since other characters have arguably worse "rule breaking" mechanics.
Pretty much all of this. Getting tips that are complete lies is just dumb, as Smash 3DS clearly has a tip that states that the Luma can still attack if Rosalina is dizzy or asleep. Taking out that ability is like taking out the Luma altogether.
 
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Gea

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I agree, but at the same time, I can see why people thought 8 seconds was too short. Because even if he was just shoved off, he could potentially come back too quickly for you to do anything, especially if you are a slow fighter and Rosalina just stalls at the opposite edge of the stage.
I don't necessarily disagree, except that I think the timer change is a poor choice of initial fix. A longer timer only hurts a Rosalina that happens to be anywhere near the edge more than be a consistent nerf. Luma should have been savable with neutral B, then such balances would make more sense. It's kind of beside the point, though.
 
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ChikoLad

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I don't necessarily disagree, except that I think the timer change is a poor choice of initial fix. A longer timer only hurts a ROsalina that happens to be anywhere near the edge more than be a consistent nerf. Luma should have been savable with neutral B, then such balances would make more sense. It's kind of beside the point, though.
Oh don't get me wrong, I actually think it's far too early for patching anything for the sake of balancing (except for stuff like Wario's crazy vectoring, since it's blatantly a glitch). But I am OK with the respawn timer thing solely because it could make Rosalina matches more interesting without actually being a straight up "they made her worse" scenario.

The other nerf is complete bull, though. Seems like nothing more than pandering.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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All that we can hope for now is that it was just a demo only dilemma. But much like the problems with the dress physics, what was in the demo will most likely be in the actual game itself.
 

ChikoLad

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All that we can hope for now is that it was just a demo only dilemma. But much like the problems with the dress physics, what was in the demo will most likely be in the actual game itself.
The currently circulating demos are the final version, if I'm not mistaken. It's just GameStop sticking the disc in a Wii U system.

Because people have been whining about that specific strength of Rosalina being broken, and I feel like it can't be a coincidence that they are suddenly patching it out. But said whining was just that and nothing more, Rosalina mains always try to help others out, and explain the counters to this technique, yet these people still whine. This is actively happening to me right now.
 
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Clemente

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His idea is that people whining = a fix is made. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Don't we already know, after well over a decade, that that is not how Sakurai operates?
 

DarkKiru

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Oddly, the only other nerf that I've heard is that Bowser users can no longer win by committing suicide with Flying Slam if they don't have one stock more than their grabbed opponent. This probably applies to Ganondorf and his Flame Choke as well.
I think flame choke double suicide still counts as a win for Ganondorf ( I could've sworn I saw someone do it in the Wii U version; we'll probably have to wait to find out though )

I take it 1.0.4 isn't actually out yet? Im wondering if other people had changes that we simply don't know about yet.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I take it 1.0.4 isn't actually out yet? Im wondering if other people had changes that we simply don't know about yet.
Yeah it'll most likely be out once Smash Wii U is released. Chances are, what has been confirmed in Smash Wii U will be applied onto Smash 3DS once update 1.0.4 is available to download.
 

ChikoLad

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This is your proof that he's "pandering" to whiners?
It's clear we have some influence on his decisions. You cannot deny this.

With that in mind, think about how he is removing an ADVERTISED feature of the character, even though it contradicts STORY BASED MATERIAL in the game, and how many people also complain about it (because they refuse to learn the counters for it).

You can't blame me for suspecting that there is some pandering going on.
 
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Clemente

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It's clear we have some influence on his decisions. You cannot deny this.

With that in mind, think about how he is removing an ADVERTISED feature of the character, even though it contradicts STORY BASED MATERIAL in the game, and how many people also complain about it (because they refuse to learn the counters for it).

You can't blame me for suspecting that there is some pandering going on.
He's obviously aware of fan feedback. We might even still have tripping if he wasn't listening to how the fans felt. Having said that, you're not very familiar with Sakurai or his work if you think he would make a change to his game that he himself didn't feel was justified.
 

secretstory

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Not really happy with the idea of "nerfing" characters unless they're boss level characters with full screen unblockables. A more aggressively-conducive game would buff everybody else to around the level of the supposed top tier, so it's no fun to bring Rosalina down when it'll turn the game into something as campy as Brawl. As staple of an argument this might sound to certain people, everybody else shoud be given buffed up options and strengths and speed so they'll be more invited to attack rather than defend. Especially if they reduce the amount of i-frames on rolling.
 

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It's clear we have some influence on his decisions. You cannot deny this.

With that in mind, think about how he is removing an ADVERTISED feature of the character, even though it contradicts STORY BASED MATERIAL in the game, and how many people also complain about it (because they refuse to learn the counters for it).

You can't blame me for suspecting that there is some pandering going on.
I'm not going to delve into whether or not Sakurai is pandering or not (just keep in mind the balance team is more than just him), but just because a feature was showcased within a game, therefore meaning it was intended, doesn't automatically mean it's off limits to be changed. For example, Blizzard deleted units and abilities from Starcraft II because they were deemed too powerful and incapable of being balanced.

Likewise, if the balance team found that Rosalina being able to get out of grabs through Luma gave her too much of an advantage, then that is fair. Whether or not you agree with that is a different story.
 

Comorant

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It's clear we have some influence on his decisions. You cannot deny this.

With that in mind, think about how he is removing an ADVERTISED feature of the character, even though it contradicts STORY BASED MATERIAL in the game, and how many people also complain about it (because they refuse to learn the counters for it).

You can't blame me for suspecting that there is some pandering going on.
How is Sakurai removing an advertised feature of the character? Did the Luma suddenly vanish from the game? Does Rosalina being vunerable to pummeling suddenly completely destroy the purpose of Luma altogether? Rosalina was advertised as a character capable of conducting a Luma for utility and flexibility. She's still got that, they've simply tweaked it and until we play the new patch, we won't know how much it really hurts the character.

But lets put that aside, are we really going to be using canon as an argument against this nerf? Because last time I checked, Rosalina treated the Luma as if they were her kids, and never threw them against lasers and bombs as a human shield. You could argue that now she'll have to be more careful about keeping the Luma alive and safe, almost like, I dunno, a Mother? If canon is going to be pulled in here, we better see Ganondorf running around with Super Armor on 90% of his movepool.

But with that all said, I digress. I feel that we need to take baby steps when it comes to balance patches. Don't make any hasty judgements until the patch is in our hands to fully explore. Keep in mind, if Sakurai claims to be listening, you can make your voices heard if a nerf feels too extreme. I'm sure we'll be seeing patches for a good year at the very least.
 

icraq

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How is Sakurai removing an advertised feature of the character? Did the Luma suddenly vanish from the game?
the advertised feature he's referring to was luma's ability to hit mid grab
 

ChikoLad

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I'm not going to delve into whether or not Sakurai is pandering or not (just keep in mind the balance team is more than just him), but just because a feature was showcased within a game, therefore meaning it was intended, doesn't automatically mean it's off limits to be changed. For example, Blizzard deleted units and abilities from Starcraft II because they were deemed too powerful and incapable of being balanced.

Likewise, if the balance team found that Rosalina being able to get out of grabs through Luma gave her too much of an advantage, then that is fair. Whether or not you agree with that is a different story.
It's not OK to be changing big, advertised features this early on, not at all. That's my main problem here. It's pre-mature.

How is Sakurai removing an advertised feature of the character? Did the Luma suddenly vanish from the game? Does Rosalina being vunerable to pummeling suddenly completely destroy the purpose of Luma altogether? Rosalina was advertised as a character capable of conducting a Luma for utility and flexibility. She's still got that, they've simply tweaked it and until we play the new patch, we won't know how much it really hurts the character.

But lets put that aside, are we really going to be using canon as an argument against this nerf? Because last time I checked, Rosalina treated the Luma as if they were her kids, and never threw them against lasers and bombs as a human shield. You could argue that now she'll have to be more careful about keeping the Luma alive and safe, almost like, I dunno, a Mother? If canon is going to be pulled in here, we better see Ganondorf running around with Super Armor on 90% of his movepool.

But with that all said, I digress. I feel that we need to take baby steps when it comes to balance patches. Don't make any hasty judgements until the patch is in our hands to fully explore. Keep in mind, if Sakurai claims to be listening, you can make your voices heard if a nerf feels too extreme. I'm sure we'll be seeing patches for a good year at the very least.


From her trailer, and the 3DS Tips tell you about it. Bill Trinen also talked about it a lot in streams.

Also, I was referring to the Palutena's Guidance - After mistakenly thinking Rosalina directly controls the Lumas without their input, Palutena explains to Pit and Viridi that "Lumas will sacrifice everything to protect Rosalina", therefore confirming that the Lumas are acting of their own accord.

Soooo them "dancing frantically" while she is grabbed makes no sense at all, and contradicts Sakurai's own in universe explanation for something.
 
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