Data Roll/Air Dodge Frame Data

[Lavani]

Frame data taken from http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/Character_data.htm.

Data is formatted as intangible frames / total frames, ordered from fastest to slowest.

Spoiler: Rolls

4-15 / 26
Toon Link
Fox
Pikachu

4-16 / 26
Duck Hunt

4-13 / 26
Little Mac

4-16 / 27
Diddy Kong
Sheik
Zero Suit Samus
Pit / Dark Pit
Meta Knight
Captain Falcon
Sonic

4-18 / 29
Roy

4-17 / 29
Ryu

4-17 / 29
Mario
Wario
Mr. Game & Watch
Donkey Kong
Falco
R.O.B.
Olimar
Wii Fit Trainer
Dr. Mario
Pac-Man
Mii Brawler

4-15 / 29
Greninja (forward)
Lucario

4-13 / 29
Mewtwo

4-18 / 30
Luigi
Peach
Rosalina
Bowser Jr / Koopalings
Link
Zelda
Palutena
Marth / Lucina
Kirby
Jigglypuff
Ness
Villager
Shulk
Mega Man
Mii Swordfighter
Mii Gunner
Lucas

4-19 / 32
Ike
Robin
Charizard

4-15 / 32
Greninja (back)

4-20 / 33
Bowser
Ganondorf
King Dedede

4-22 / 35
Yoshi

4-24 / 39
Samus

Spoiler: Spot Dodges

2-16 / 24
Duck Hunt

2-15 / 24
Sheik
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
Meta Knight
Little Mac
Fox
Pikachu
Sonic

2-14 / 24
Mewtwo

2-16 / 25
Greninja
Mr. Game & Watch
Diddy Kong
Pit / Dark Pit
Falco
Wii Fit Trainer

2-15 / 26
Lucario

3-17 / 26
Mario
Luigi
Rosalina
Wario
Samus
Marth / Lucina
Kirby
R.O.B.
Olimar
Dr. Mario
Pac-Man
Mii Brawler
Mii Gunner
Roy

3-18 / 27
Peach
Yoshi
Bowser Jr / Koopalings
Link
Zelda
Palutena
Ike
Robin
Charizard
Ness
Captain Falcon
Villager
Shulk
Mega Man
Mii Swordfighter
Lucas

3-17 / 27
Ryu

4-19 / 28
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Ganondorf
King Dedede
Jigglypuff

Spoiler: Air Dodges

2-24 / 28
Mewtwo

2-25 / 30
Little Mac
Sheik
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
Meta Knight
Fox
Duck Hunt
Pikachu
Sonic

2-26 / 31
Greninja
Mr. Game & Watch
Diddy Kong
Pit / Dark Pit
Falco
Wii Fit Trainer

2-25 / 31
Lucario

3-27 / 32
Mario
Luigi
Rosalina
Wario
Samus
Marth / Lucina
Kirby
R.O.B.
Olimar
Dr. Mario
Pac-Man
Mii Brawler
Mii Gunner
Roy

3-28 / 33
Peach
Yoshi
Bowser Jr / Koopalings
Link
Zelda
Palutena
Ike
Robin
Charizard
Ness
Captain Falcon
Villager
Shulk
Mega Man
Mii Swordfighter
Lucas

4-25 / 33
Ryu

4-29 / 34
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Ganondorf
King Dedede
Jigglypuff

 

[Ansou]

Nice information. By the way, are Air Dodges interruptible as soon as the intangibility ends?

 

[Lavani]

Nice information. By the way, are Air Dodges interruptible as soon as the intangibility ends?

They are not, the numbers before the slash are the intangible frames and the number after the slash is the total end lag. So for example, the intangibility on Greninja's airdodge lasts to 26f but he can't act until 32f (unable to act through 31f, thus interruptible as soon as 32f).

 

[Ansou]

They are not, the numbers before the slash are the intangible frames and the number after the slash is the total end lag. So for example, the intangibility on Greninja's airdodge lasts to 26f but he can't act until 32f (unable to act through 31f, thus interruptible as soon as 32f).

Alright, thank you. It could be somewhat useful to know how long the animation lasts because of landing lag, but I guess it's not really needed (and as a Kirby player I can just Hup Cancel anyway).

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Thats exactly what the numbers after the slash are telling you though...

 

[Ansou]

Thats exactly what the numbers after the slash are telling you though...

Hmm I thought there were some frames that continued even after you are able to act meaning you could interrupt the last frames of an Air Dodge with an aerial attack to avoid Air Dodge landing lag... Was I wrong?

 

[Nobie]

Seriously why is Mewtwo's roll/dodge data so weird.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Hmm I thought there were some frames that continued even after you are able to act meaning you could interrupt the last frames of an Air Dodge with an aerial attack to avoid Air Dodge landing lag... Was I wrong?

Well I mean, if you're able to act, then that means you're able to input an aerial to do that.

I'll illustrate with Mewtwo's airdodge since it's the shortest one

[F1][F2][F3][F4][F5][F6][F7][F8][F9][F10][F11][F12][F13][F14][F15][F16][F17][F18][F19][F20][F21][F22][F23][F24][F25][F26][F27][F28][F29][F30]...

Orange frames are startup, green frames are intangibility, red frames are endlag, the blue frame is the FAF (first actionable frame, i.e. first frame you can input an action and have it begin the very next frame, as if you had input it from neutral)

Lets say you input/buffered another airdodge. If you input it anywhere between F25-27, you buffered it, meaning the input will go through right on F28, and begin F29.

So, the animation for airdodge might go on past F28, but that doesn't matter, since you can interrupt it as soon as F28 (IASA).

 

[ぱみゅ]

Airdodges are broken.

 

[Lavani]

Alright, thank you. It could be somewhat useful to know how long the animation lasts because of landing lag, but I guess it's not really needed (and as a Kirby player I can just Hup Cancel anyway).

The autocancel for Greninja's is ~5 frames after the IASA, I haven't seen anything to suggest it varies much if at all for other characters. I'd say you're safe adding 5 frames to the total given if you need to know when the autocancel is/don't have a move to cancel the airdodge with.

 

[Ansou]

Well I mean, if you're able to act, then that means you're able to input an aerial to do that.

I'll illustrate with Mewtwo's airdodge since it's the shortest one

[F1][F2][F3][F4][F5][F6][F7][F8][F9][F10][F11][F12][F13][F14][F15][F16][F17][F18][F19][F20][F21][F22][F23][F24][F25][F26][F27][F28][F29][F30]...

Orange frames are startup, green frames are intangibility, red frames are endlag, the blue frame is the FAF (first actionable frame, i.e. first frame you can input an action and have it begin the very next frame, as if you had input it from neutral)

Lets say you input/buffered another airdodge. If you input it anywhere between F25-27, you buffered it, meaning the input will go through right on F28, and begin F29.

So, the animation for airdodge might go on past F28, but that doesn't matter, since you can interrupt it as soon as F28 (IASA).

Yeah I know that, but what I was trying to say was that it DOES matter slightly if the animation continues past F28 (unless you have an aerial attack that autocancels at the start of the animation) as it should decide if you input something before landing or not.

Let's say that you are doing an Air Dodge and is about to land. Naturally, you would want as little landing lag as possible. If the Air Dodge animation finishes completely, you will get normal landing lag (about 4 frames as far as I know). However, if the Air Dodge animation will not completely end before you land, you would want to interrupt it with an aerial attack, although this will leave you with the aerial attack landing lag instead of normal landing lag unless it's something like Kirby's D-air which auto cancels in its first frames.

I'm not saying that this is a big deal, but I just wanted to clarify my point. Although, if the frames after the IASA frame would induce normal landing lag, then my argument is completely irrelevant.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you, but since the airdodge's FAF is before the animation end, Mewtwo could buffer like a FAir and have it autocancel so he doesn't get the airdodge landing lag.

 

[Lavani]

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you, but since the airdodge's FAF is before the animation end, Mewtwo could buffer like a FAir and have it autocancel so he doesn't get the airdodge landing lag.

Well, for Mewtwo his options are dair/uair and both are tight.

Kind of tangential though.

Edit because really not relevant to the thread:

UAir would prob be best since it has the lowest amount of landing lag (16F) as insurance if you somehow miss the autocancel.

I feel like I'm definitely missing something here, why would you even mention DAir

Uair/dair/bair have early autocancels, fair/nair don't.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

UAir would prob be best since it has the lowest amount of landing lag (16F) as insurance if you somehow miss the autocancel.

I feel like I'm definitely missing something here, why would you even mention DAir

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Something is off with these numbers.

I got 4-20, FAF 27 with Lucina.

Not 3-18...

 

[Lavani]

Something is off with these numbers.

I got 4-20, FAF 27 with Lucina.

Not 3-18...

I'm getting 3 for the startup, it definitely starts sooner than her roll.

FAF 27 makes sense, my Greninja numbers were 1 higher than the end numbers given for this frame data because it's "total frames" rather than the FAF (26 frames spotdodging, act frame 27).

I will look into when the intangibility ends later I guess, but I'm confident that "3-xx / 26" is accurate at the very least.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm curious what method you use for finding startup, I find this very difficult to measure personally.

 

[Lavani]

I'm curious what method you use for finding startup, I find this very difficult to measure personally.

It's a total pain on 3DS, the best method I found was throwing a Bob-omb straight up and using Hold L to adjust it to just the right height before starting the dodge, then recording it to verify the frame count.

She can spotdodge a Bob-omb when it's even with her waist (explodes frame 3) but needs it level with her torso to dodge it with a roll (frame 4).

 

[Shaya]

From testing that I did at some point, several characters had 1 roll slightly faster than the other (at most 1 frame from what I saw). Luigi was one of them I recall specifically.

I used Villager trip sappling as a means of measuring roll invincibility.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I'm curious what method you use for finding startup, I find this very difficult to measure personally.

When I test, I just use 1/4 Hold L to input the airdodge/spotdodge/roll on the same frame as an action with a known hit-on frame.

For example, when I was finding the data on Mewtwos airdodge, I went into Battlefield, put Mewtwo on the floor, and the timer character on a platform, then jumped and did the inputs. He got hit by Little Macs F1 jab but avoided Marios F2 jab.

How were you doing it

 

[KuroganeHammer]

THIS IS SUCH A GOOD IDEA OMG but does this really work because 1/4 speed is known to be janky

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Yes, all you need to do is ensure youre inputting the actions on the same frame. So release L, press your buttons, and keep them held while you press L.

Afaik it only messes with certain specials like Aether Drive (which got fixed this latest patch) and Thoron (messes up hitbox placement and refresh rate, idk if its gotten fixed) but you shouldnt be using those to test anyway.

If you want I can send you a txt with my list of timer attacks later.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yes, all you need to do is ensure youre inputting the actions on the same frame. So release L, press your buttons, and keep them held while you press L.

Afaik it only messes with certain specials like Aether Drive (which got fixed this latest patch) and Thoron (messes up hitbox placement and refresh rate, idk if its gotten fixed) but you shouldnt be using those to test anyway.

If you want I can send you a txt with my list of timer attacks later.

Please do send that file to me, it would be helpful!!

 

[Big O]

The only thing that might make you mess up using the simultaneous attack method is funky Z-axis behavior. For the longest time I had DK's spot dodge as 3-20 instead of 4-20, but it was really just him going too far into the z-axis to get hit by Luigi Nair (frame 3). Just do the testing on a 2D stage and you should be fine.

 

[Meru.]

Has this been translated yet? If no, I could do it. However, since I'm busy and have never used Google spreadsheets, it may take some time, so I feel the least I could do is put the translation of the terms he uses in the first tab.



発生F Start-up 全体F Stuck in Animation until frame 持続F Duration 相殺 Sweetspot溜め前F Charges at溜め後F Release after change着地隙発生 Autocancel Frames着地隙F Landing lag備考 Notes

弱 Jab
横強 Ftilt
上強 Utilt
下強 Dtilt
横S Fsmash
上S Usmash
下S Dsmash
ダッシュ Dash Attack
空N Nair
空前 Fair
空後 Bair
空上 Uair
空下 Dair
つかみ Grab
前投げ Fthrow
後投げ Bthrow
上投げ Uthrow
下投げ Dthrow

 

[Ulevo]

The only thing that might make you mess up using the simultaneous attack method is funky Z-axis behavior. For the longest time I had DK's spot dodge as 3-20 instead of 4-20, but it was really just him going too far into the z-axis to get hit by Luigi Nair (frame 3). Just do the testing on a 2D stage and you should be fine.

Is this to say some characters become better or worse on 2D stages from a hitbox perspective?

 

[Lavani]

Is this to say some characters become better or worse on 2D stages from a hitbox perspective?

The removal of the Z-axis means that attacks that sometimes whiff due to 3D shenanigans such as Greninja's fsmash and DK's ftilt will hit consistently. Spotdodges are also nerfed slightly by the lack of Z-axis displacement keeping characters untouchable despite not being invulnerable.

Has this been translated yet? If no, I could do it. However, since I'm busy and have never used Google spreadsheets, it may take some time, so I feel the least I could do is put the translation of the terms he uses in the first tab.



発生F Start-up 全体F Stuck in Animation until frame 持続F Duration 相殺 Sweetspot溜め前F Charges at溜め後F Release after change着地隙発生 Autocancel Frames着地隙F Landing lag備考 Notes

弱 Jab
横強 Ftilt
上強 Utilt
下強 Dtilt
横S Fsmash
上S Usmash
下S Dsmash
ダッシュ Dash Attack
空N Nair
空前 Fair
空後 Bair
空上 Uair
空下 Dair
つかみ Grab
前投げ Fthrow
後投げ Bthrow
上投げ Uthrow
下投げ Dthrow

I actually started working on making translation images last night.

EDIT: And now I am done with them.

Spoiler: Tab 1

Spoiler: Tab 3

Not bothering with the specials tab since it's pretty self-explanatory and different for each character anyway.

 

[Emblem Lord]

yooo....Samus rolls are lol. I mean we always knew it was bad but daayuuuuuuuum. Robin too.

Marcina actually decent. Sheik can go **** herself that sexy ****.

 

[ZHMT]

The worst air dodges in ssb4 4/29 ends on 34 are better than the best air dodge in Brawl.

Metaknight 3/29 ends on 39.

Fun fact.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Strange, I haven't had as many issues punishing baited airdodges.

Still nice to know.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

All Forward and Backrolls are the same duration on a character? Wot.

4 characters had rolls end in 27 or less frames in Brawl...but 13 characters here?
So if I understand correctly.
Wish roll duration was standardized at 32 frames...

 

[Nate22Hill]

ok i know this my sound stupid but im kind of new, how do read frames, i know what 34 frames mean but what does for example 2-25 / 31 mean???

 

[Shaya]

The X-Y is the frames at which you're invincible.

And unless things got changed within a patch, there are characters with different forward/back rolls, but I haven't seen any greater than 1 frame difference.

 

[Nate22Hill]

The X-Y is the frames at which you're invincible.

And unless things got changed within a patch, there are characters with different forward/back rolls, but I haven't seen any greater than 1 frame difference.

is the last frame the frame when they can act out of the action/ lag

forget that last question, my final question would be, how do you frame trap???

 

[Indigo Jeans]

is the last frame the frame when they can act out of the action/ lag

The number after the slash is the last frame before the frame you can input an action and have it begin on the very next frame. So vasically the frame after that you're free to do whatever you want.

As for frame trapping:
http://smashboards.com/threads/butter-your-bread-a-bnb-50-50s-and-frame-trap-tutorial-series.401680/

Also, next time, don't double post, just edit your first one when its a minor addition like this was.

 

[kenniky]

Interesting... a Mewtwo spamming airdodge has a total of 6 frames per airdodge for which he is invulnerable.

That's kind of ridiculous. about 1/5 of the time vulnerable per second .-.

 

[Virum]

Interesting... a Mewtwo spamming airdodge has a total of 6 frames per airdodge for which he is invulnerable.

That's kind of ridiculous. about 1/5 of the time vulnerable per second .-.

It's actually less than that. You count from frame 25 for the vulnerability, so frames 1, 25, 26 and 27.

 

[Ansou]

It's actually less than that. You count from frame 25 for the vulnerability, so frames 1, 25, 26 and 27.

But what about frame 28 and frame 29? The full cycle is 28 frames and it takes one frame before the game starts the action after the input, doesn't it? Or does the action start directly if you have already buffered the input?

 

[NoviceSmasher]

i know this is kind of scrubby but after an airdodge how many frames do you have before you can airdodge again?,i heard that its something ridiculous like 2 frames

 

[jmjb]

wow this is absolutely what I was loframe thanks!
most of the data is different than what I see here
http://kuroganehammer.com
are these frame datas from the same patch as the link? the link suggests greninja has the longest intangible frames, and most characters are out of 25 frames. thoughts?