Robins arc fire desperately needs buffs

Perfect patricia

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#1
It needs a faster cast time and shorter end lag because using this thing against fast opponents just results in them killing you. It’s even worse if robin goes against fox or wolf or other fast characters because their frame data surpasses robin and it makes for a really unfun match up
 

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#3
It needs a faster cast time and shorter end lag because using this thing against fast opponents just results in them killing you. It’s even worse if robin goes against fox or wolf or other fast characters because their frame data surpasses robin and it makes for a really unfun match up
Don't use it in neutral then. Look for opportune situations.
Don't know know if you're in the robin discord, but over there, Arcfire in Neutral is a meme, and is laughed at lol. If your'e getting punished just for using it, you're using it wrong.
Arcfire is almost purely meant for use in the the advantage state. Never ever forget that :evil: lol
 
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#4
Stating "Don't use it in neutral game" completely sidesteps the issue that it should be usable in neutral. So many other characters can quickly spam projectiles in this game without any real recovery or startup, including Ness with his very similar pk fire. Robin is NO WHERE near the top of the tier list and reducing his arc fire startup and lag would go a long way to making him a more viable tournament option.
 
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Avokha

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#5
Stating "Don't use it in neutral game" completely sidesteps the issue that it should be usable in neutral. So many other characters can quickly spam projectiles in this game without any real recovery or startup, including Ness with his very similar pk fire. Robin is NO WHERE near the top of the tier list and reducing his arc fire startup and lag would go a long way to making him a more viable tournament option.
Maybe so, but as robin we need to work with the tools we are given and use them correctly. Time spent mewling for buffs is time better spent learning how to use Robin's moves correctly and with precision. Sure it would be nice to be able to brainlessly spam arcfire as if we were ness, but that's not the way our character functions, and frankly I prefer it that way
 
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#6
Maybe so, but as robin we need to work with the tools we are given and use them correctly. Time spent mewling for buffs is time better spent learning how to use Robin's moves correctly and with precision. Sure it would be nice to be able to brainlessly spam arcfire as if we were ness, but that's not the way our character functions, and frankly I prefer it that way
You prefer that Robin is handicapped in a way that lowers his viability? Why on Earth would you want that? Any help Robin can get would be great. I would much rather Robin ascend to a high tier rating. If I had my wish, they would drop the disappearing abilities all together. It wouldn't make him overpowered but rather actually good. Its a crappy gimmick that can never be properly balanced because it prevents you from using moves when you really need them. No other character has an UpB recovery move that can just disappear, no other character has the possibility of losing a jab combo, no other projectile character can lose their projectiles. He doesn't even start with Levin sword anymore.
They tried to use the terrible item system from Fire Emblem and it failed, that is why they haven't given it to any other Emblem character. And why all the other Emblem characters are high tier while Robin is low.
Complaining about the character is the only way for positive change to happen.
I still main Robin as he is my favorite character, an I do fairly well with him, but I've lost too many times because of a lost tome. Not because I was out played or I was too slow to react, but because a Tome ran out.
 

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#7
You prefer that Robin is handicapped in a way that lowers his viability? Why on Earth would you want that? Any help Robin can get would be great. I would much rather Robin ascend to a high tier rating. If I had my wish, they would drop the disappearing abilities all together. It wouldn't make him overpowered but rather actually good. Its a crappy gimmick that can never be properly balanced because it prevents you from using moves when you really need them. No other character has an UpB recovery move that can just disappear, no other character has the possibility of losing a jab combo, no other projectile character can lose their projectiles. He doesn't even start with Levin sword anymore.
They tried to use the terrible item system from Fire Emblem and it failed, that is why they haven't given it to any other Emblem character. And why all the other Emblem characters are high tier while Robin is low.
Complaining about the character is the only way for positive change to happen.
I still main Robin as he is my favorite character, an I do fairly well with him, but I've lost too many times because of a lost tome. Not because I was out played or I was too slow to react, but because a Tome ran out.
Durability isn't why most people see robin as bad, at least it isnt the main reason. Robin's largest flaw isn't that he's slow on the ground, or that he has durability, or that his frame data is only average for sword users. It's his poor disadvantage state and his lack of easy ways to escape combos and kill confirms. Opponents who are aware of these things can rush in and juggle robin to the sky and back, provided their own character allows them, or edgeguard us with impunity. But there is ALWAYS counterplay to be utilized. Any dedicated robin main will tell you robin can overcome any obstacle if you possess the right smarts with him (or her I guess lol)

It sounds to me like you need to improve your micromanagement skills if you're losing because you dont have the right move at the right time. Always keep track of your remaining uses at all times and be aware of how much longer you need to wait out for the right weapon to respawn.

I can tell from your post your quite passionate about this character, and I think that's a wonderful thing! I would recommend you join the robin discord, that's where most of the playerbase congregates to discuss our matchups, metagame, or just to chill :)
 
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#8
Yeah robin desperately needs help with arc fire it’s so garbage. Pk fire and holy water are glorified arc fire without the end lag also arc fire can Whif on short opponents which is bull
 

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#9
Yeah robin desperately needs help with arc fire it’s so garbage. Pk fire and holy water are glorified arc fire without the end lag also arc fire can Whif on short opponents which is bull
I mean
I dont think arcfire should be compared to pk fire whatsoever, the moves have totally different functions for their respective characters.
The closest move in function to arcfire that another character has is holy water, but that also has a few key differences that keeps belmonts from using it in quite the same way that we use our fire.
We really need to stop being jealous of other characters and learn to value the good in our own character. It's only going to develop a toxic mentality that will keep us from becoming the best we can be with our character
 
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Nah

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#10
Any dedicated robin main will tell you robin can overcome any obstacle if you possess the right smarts with him (or her I guess lol)
While there are some things you've said in this thread that I agree with (like about Arcfire for example), Smash 4 kind of showed that this statement is rather false, and I don't think that there's much reason to believe that it's different in Smash Ultimate.
 
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#11
While there are some things you've said in this thread that I agree with (like about Arcfire for example), Smash 4 kind of showed that this statement is rather false, and I don't think that there's much reason to believe that it's different in Smash Ultimate.
I suppose that comes down to personal opinion in the end. Robin players could and did make good results back in smash 4, but the robin meta started to stagnate after shine 2016, where robin got his best result in smash 4s life span, getting 3rd (Dath) and only losing to 1st (ZeRo) and 2nd (ESAM) place. A huge part of that might have been due to bayonettas resurgence as the number 1 character, and just the unfettered dlc powercreep in general. A lot of robins just ended up becoming less and less active as smash 4 went on, and people were just getting tired of smash 4 in general. So in short, there were a number of factors that went into Robin's fall into obscurity in that game.

Ultimate is a brand new game which is miraculously somehow even more balanced than smash 4 was overall (doesn't hurt that DLC was nerfed all around too), so if there was ever a chance to revive the robin meta advancement, right now would be the best time imo.
 
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#12
I mean
I dont think arcfire should be compared to pk fire whatsoever, the moves have totally different functions for their respective characters.
The closest move in function to arcfire that another character has is holy water, but that also has a few key differences that keeps belmonts from using it in quite the same way that we use our fire.
We really need to stop being jealous of other characters and learn to value the good in our own character. It's only going to develop a toxic mentality that will keep us from becoming the best we can be with our character
But I also don't think it is fully constructive to pretend there are no short comings. Voicing concerns around balance issues is the only way to see patches that correct them. Let's be honest, Robin does have shortcomings that are more than most top tier characters. there is no reason NOT to highlight these in hope that Nintendo notices.
 

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#13
But I also don't think it is fully constructive to pretend there are no short comings. Voicing concerns around balance issues is the only way to see patches that correct them. Let's be honest, Robin does have shortcomings that are more than most top tier characters. there is no reason NOT to highlight these in hope that Nintendo notices.
Having buffs would be nice, there's no arguing there. But what if your campaign for buffs fails? What will you do if the buffs you think we need never come? You're opening yourself up to be gravely disappointed as long as you hold onto this patch culture mindset.

Part of being great with the character you play is understanding how to work around your characters weaknesses. Playing a character with few to even no weaknesses is all well and good, but I suspect that playing such a character can prove to actually inhibit the players growth as a player, as they are not challenged nearly as hard to learn to beat their characters weaknesses, and by extension, their own weakness. Robin is a difficult character to master, and I believe the character can help players grow stronger in a way few other characters in the game can allow. We should relish such an opportunity for growth, imo.

Besides, we don't NEED to be considered top tier in order to go places and get results. Smash 4 history is testament to this, and the ultimate meta is still very young, so the best thing you can do as a robin main is practice and play your heart out. You can do great things with robin if you really put your mind to it!
 
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#14
Having buffs would be nice, there's no arguing there. But what if your campaign for buffs fails? What will you do if the buffs you think we need never come? You're opening yourself up to be gravely disappointed as long as you hold onto this patch culture mindset.

Part of being great with the character you play is understanding how to work around your characters weaknesses. Playing a character with few to even no weaknesses is all well and good, but I suspect that playing such a character can prove to actually inhibit the players growth as a player, as they are not challenged nearly as hard to learn to beat their characters weaknesses, and by extension, their own weakness. Robin is a difficult character to master, and I believe the character can help players grow stronger in a way few other characters in the game can allow. We should relish such an opportunity for growth, imo.

Besides, we don't NEED to be top tier in order to go places and get results. Smash 4 history is testament to this, and the ultimate meta is still very young, so the best thing you can do as a robin main is practice and play your heart out. You can do great things with robin if you really put your mind to it!
I don't know what you are referencing regarding Smash 4, Robin never placed high in the largest tournaments and was placed low on all tier lists. I played robin for Smash 4, and a few items I complained about got fixed since then ( tome gauge, directional upB, and better knockback with thoron.) but other weren't and new nerfs were added ( projectiles now disappear on clang instead of detonate, arc thunder shortened, not starting with Levin).
If I had 1 item above all else that I think SHOULD be fixed it is that you should never get a half elwind, you should always get the second shot. Just as I can fully charge to Thoron with just 1 bar of tome, I should be able to get a full Elwind with just 1 bar.

I play to win tournaments. If I just played with my friends at home, I wouldn't care so much that robin requires extra effort to play. But there is money on the line, and losing because of aggravating, unneeded, character design choices is frustrating.
 

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#15
I play to win tournaments. If I just played with my friends at home, I wouldn't care so much that robin requires extra effort to play. But there is money on the line, and losing because of aggravating, unneeded, character design choices is frustrating.
This sounds like a personal problem, tbh. If your only goal in playing is to win money, then you have no business playing anything other than the best characters in the game so you win and get that cash. I personally think using the game purely as a means of income is pretty shallow, but you do you I suppose.
 

Nah

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#16
I don't think that wanting buffs or expressing issues one has with something is inherently a bad thing, sometimes feedback needs to be given in order to improve something, and buffs can potentially make for a more balanced and/or more fun game.

But we also can't rely on patches to make things better, as we have no control over them, and much less influence than people want to think. Chances are the character will get buffed at some point in the game's life, but we don't know when that will be or what form the buffs will take, nevermind that it's not guaranteed that Robin will ever get buffed.

I suppose that comes down to personal opinion in the end. Robin players could and did make good results back in smash 4, but the robin meta started to stagnate after shine 2016, where robin got his best result in smash 4s life span, getting 3rd (Dath) and only losing to 1st (ZeRo) and 2nd (ESAM) place. A huge part of that might have been due to bayonettas resurgence as the number 1 character, and just the unfettered dlc powercreep in general. A lot of robins just ended up becoming less and less active as smash 4 went on, and people were just getting tired of smash 4 in general. So in short, there were a number of factors that went into Robin's fall into obscurity in that game.

Ultimate is a brand new game which is miraculously somehow even more balanced than smash 4 was overall (doesn't hurt that DLC was nerfed all around too), so if there was ever a chance to revive the robin meta advancement, right now would be the best time imo.
Playing a character with few to even no weaknesses is all well and good, but I suspect that playing such a character can prove to actually inhibit the players growth as a player, as they are not challenged nearly as hard to learn to beat their characters weaknesses, and by extension, their own weakness.
Depends on what one means by "good results", which, opinion on that will vary cuz it's a somewhat subjective thing. I also think that people put a little more weight on Bayonetta and Cloud's impact on the Smash 4 meta than they should (just a little bit), and that Robin's active rep shrank because of the character's issues, but idk if this thread is really the place to go into detail on another game. And playing a more flawed character doesn't necessarily make for one that forges better players imo.

However, you are right that it's far too soon for the world to give up on SmUsh Robin (or any character in this game for that matter), especially when we're not even at the point of no more patches yet. Would be nice to see the character not stagnate again so soon after Smash 4.
 
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#17
This sounds like a personal problem, tbh. If your only goal in playing is to win money, then you have no business playing anything other than the best characters in the game so you win and get that cash. I personally think using the game purely as a means of income is pretty shallow, but you do you I suppose.
So all pro gamers are shallow because they play to win tournaments and make money? really? wow.
Does that hold true for all pro sports players as well?
 

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#18
So all pro gamers are shallow because they play to win tournaments and make money? really? wow.
Does that hold true for all pro sports players as well?
You misunderstand. Most, if not all of smash top players are strong enough at the game to make a living off of it (or at least make it a secondary source of income), but their drive for playing the game is fueled by a certain passion for the game and/or its community, not out of pure, petty avarice. This is why we see things like the recent Salem and Leffen twitter beef and the whole "years of research" meme, just as an example. Do you really think salem would have gave a damn about how melee players perceive and treat the community he is a part of if he was only in it for the money? I guarantee that twitter debacle, and many others like it, would never happen if top players played entirely out of greed. Not only that, but as history has shown, when top players lose their passion for the game, they eventually just stop playing altogether. If a top level (actually any level, really) player did come out and say publicly that they only play the game to make money and couldn't give a crap about the game otherwise, then yes, I would indeed consider them shallow lol. But my opinion on using smash to hustle is getting rather off topic, so I'll leave it at that.

With that aside, you didn't really address the real point of my post; If your only goal in playing is to win money, then you have no business playing anything other than the best characters in the game so you win and get that cash.
 
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SJMistery

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#19
Stating "Don't use it in neutral game" completely sidesteps the issue that it should be usable in neutral. So many other characters can quickly spam projectiles in this game without any real recovery or startup, including Ness with his very similar pk fire. Robin is NO WHERE near the top of the tier list and reducing his arc fire startup and lag would go a long way to making him a more viable tournament option.
Arcfire is perfect as-is, there is no need to change it. Arcfire IS slow, but that's simply because it's not meant to be a spammable damage tool in neutral. It's a laggy-moves punish tool, a shield pressuring tool, an edgeguarding tool, a ledge trapping tool, an area denial tool, and a combo tool. And it excels in all of those six areas.

If you want to spam projectiles in neutral, use Thunder instead, or better, pick another character and leave the master tactician to someone capable of actually using him well.
 
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#20
Arcfire is perfect as-is, there is no need to change it. Arcfire IS slow, but that's simply because it's not meant to be a spammable damage tool in neutral. It's a laggy-moves punish tool, a shield pressuring tool, an edgeguarding tool, a ledge trapping tool, an area denial tool, and a combo tool. And it excels in all of those six areas.

If you want to spam projectiles in neutral, use Thunder instead, or better, pick another character and leave the master tactician to someone capable of actually using him well.
Well, to be fair, you can’t necessarily spam Arcfire all nilly-willy, since the tome has a set durability. I don’t think it would hurt much to decrease the cast time and endlag by just a bit, since as you already mentioned, it excels in the areas it is meant to be used in. Decreasing the cast time and endlag by a few frames would not completely negate its intended purpose and make the move safer. Crap on me all you want, but I think this is what they should do.

But I’m probably very wrong. Plz don’t bully me.
 

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#21
Well, to be fair, you can’t necessarily spam Arcfire all nilly-willy, since the tome has a set durability. I don’t think it would hurt much to decrease the cast time and endlag by just a bit, since as you already mentioned, it excels in the areas it is meant to be used in. Decreasing the cast time and endlag by a few frames would not completely negate its intended purpose and make the move safer. Crap on me all you want, but I think this is what they should do.

But I’m probably very wrong. Plz don’t bully me.
Now this I can get behind. The move is already pretty good when used the way it was intended. Just reducing endlag a little in this way will make the move a little more forgiving when the player does flub up and are open for punishes, without taking away its nuances and making it a 'braindead' spamming move.
 

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#22
I honestly don't know a single thing about Robin, I get very confused when I play him because sometimes I have a zappy sword and sometimes I have a twig
 

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#23
I honestly don't know a single thing about Robin, I get very confused when I play him because sometimes I have a zappy sword and sometimes I have a twig
You have no idea how often robin players have to explain how to switch between Levin and bronze swords lmao

Ok so

Robin will start the game with bronze sword in hand, and the Levin sword will spawn 10 seconds into the match. At that point, all of robins aerials and smash attacks will use the Levin sword until either its uses are depleted or you switch to bronze sword. To switch to bronze sword, you only need to use a tilt, jab, or smash attack. To switch back to Levin, you need only do a smash attack to automatically reequip it as smash attacks will always use the Levin sword if available, or input any aerial as if it were a smash attack.
So in short, smash attack inputs, whether on ground or air, will result in Levin attacks. Anything else will be bronze sword attacks. (NOTE: if you are already using Levin for aerials, you need not smash input for them after the first aerial, only if you did a tilt, jab, or dash attack afterward)
 
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#24
Now this I can get behind. The move is already pretty good when used the way it was intended. Just reducing endlag a little in this way will make the move a little more forgiving when the player does flub up and are open for punishes, without taking away its nuances and making it a 'braindead' spamming move.
Or how about this: we make the move end on frame 5 and remove the durability. Also the pillar hits anyone on the stage for the whole game and allows the enemy to be deleted once they surpass 100%.

Joking aside, I believe this is a good idea—although one more potential buff would be to make the flame pillar a but larger. Not as big as Sm4sh, but just a tad bit larger.
 

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#25
Good reading material here. Avokha Avokha , I agree with what you are saying here. It's not much but I also wanted to add my own two cents.

Uh... something something something, successful people don't complain all the time... mumble mumble... they keep their mouth shut, take what is given to them and get it to work; while complainers don't do anything to change their unpleasant situation. Yeah, that's about right.

It's nice to want buffs for Robin but in the meantime we gotta work with what we have here. One's mindset is more important than people think.
It's great that we are a point where the game can receive balance adjustments, but back in the old Melee and Brawl days, a character was stuck the way it was from the beginning, good or bad. If life gives you lemons, you gotta make lemonade.

This also applies in other aspects of life, which is why only a small percentage of people are really successful.
 
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#26
Good reading material here. Avokha Avokha , I agree with what you are saying here. It's not much but I also wanted to add my own two cents.

Uh... something something something, successful people don't complain all the time... mumble mumble... they keep their mouth shut, take what is given to them and get it to work; while complainers don't do anything to change their unpleasant situation. Yeah, that's about right.

It's nice to want buffs for Robin but in the meantime we gotta work with what we have here. One's mindset is more important than people think.
It's great that we are a point where the game can receive balance adjustments, but back in the old Melee and Brawl days, a character was stuck the way it was from the beginning, good or bad. If life gives you lemons, you gotta make lemonade.

This also applies in other aspects of life, which is why only a small percentage of people are really successful.
I agree heavily with this. I may have put a buff idea here, but I still don’t care whether it gets buffed or not. It gets buffed, it doesn’t get buffed, doesn’t matter. Robin mains should be happy about things like Arcfire to Thoron or Arcfire to UpSmash, instead of complaining that Arcfire is not good. It is, and just like Robin, it’s slept on.

And yes. I don’t like lemonade. Shame on me. But hey! I can just get some apples and make apple juice instead—oh wait there’s no sugar. It won’t taste good. Oh well that’s life ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

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#27
Well, to be fair, you can’t necessarily spam Arcfire all nilly-willy, since the tome has a set durability. I don’t think it would hurt much to decrease the cast time and endlag by just a bit, since as you already mentioned, it excels in the areas it is meant to be used in. Decreasing the cast time and endlag by a few frames would not completely negate its intended purpose and make the move safer. Crap on me all you want, but I think this is what they should do.

But I’m probably very wrong. Plz don’t bully me.
On that one, I actually agree, easing the timing of the follow-ups or your retreating options would help fix a minor inconsistency of the move, those being it's vulnerability to SDI (for whatever reason they forgot to fix Arcfire's linking hits), altough simply improving the linking hitboxes, and increasing the hitstun of the final hit is a better alternative; essentially going to a middle ground between the new Arcfire and the bigger pillar of Smash 4. I really hate to complain, but indeed it really sucks when you get denied of the follow-up because the target got launched away early in the wrong direction.



I honestly don't know a single thing about Robin, I get very confused when I play him because sometimes I have a zappy sword and sometimes I have a twig
Welp. Avokka said most of everything, but know that you can now also use Smash neutral airs by pressing A+B in midair. You will need to have the option enabled in the custom inputs screen.
 
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#29
People say that they don't want o be able to spam arcfire. Why not?
Robin has no safe moves. All of his attackes are punishable.
Look at the top tier characters. They all have spam moves that are safe AND can combo off of.
I don't want pk fire type spams, and in fact think NEss pk fire needs a major nerf.
But a little less end lag on arc fire would provide more opportunities to zone with it.
 
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#30
I agree heavily with this. I may have put a buff idea here, but I still don’t care whether it gets buffed or not. It gets buffed, it doesn’t get buffed, doesn’t matter. Robin mains should be happy about things like Arcfire to Thoron or Arcfire to UpSmash, instead of complaining that Arcfire is not good. It is, and just like Robin, it’s slept on.

And yes. I don’t like lemonade. Shame on me. But hey! I can just get some apples and make apple juice instead—oh wait there’s no sugar. It won’t taste good. Oh well that’s life ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But Arc Fire into anything is a gamble. Some characters can get out of Arcfire really easily. Plus it clangs with a jab.
Back in Smash 4 when Arcfire would detonate if you hit it, things were great. But now it has huge lag, can be brushed of with a jab, and can be DI'd or UP B'd out of.
 

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#31
But Arc Fire into anything is a gamble. Some characters can get out of Arcfire really easily. Plus it clangs with a jab.
Back in Smash 4 when Arcfire would detonate if you hit it, things were great. But now it has huge lag, can be brushed of with a jab, and can be DI'd or UP B'd out of.
That’s pretty much how it was in Smash 4 too
 
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
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#32
But Arc Fire into anything is a gamble. Some characters can get out of Arcfire really easily. Plus it clangs with a jab.
Back in Smash 4 when Arcfire would detonate if you hit it, things were great. But now it has huge lag, can be brushed off with a jab, and can be DI'd or UP B'd out of.
To be fair, Robin can still use this, it's just harder to pull off.
 
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