Reverse charge shot trump = guaranteed?

[DungeonMaster]

I've been fooling around with the reverse charge shot since learning of it a few weeks ago. I think this deserves it's own thread - I'm pretty sure a reverse charge shot trump is full out guaranteed. The hitbox on the charge shot as it comes out is huge and crazy fast. I think it's way better than b-air ledge trump, which is already quite good, but this is serious death.
I've tested with a bunch of characters, I'm not sure it can be escaped. I'm also only able to perform this half-assed right now, so it's hard to tell. Experts please, test it out!

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

I've mused about this too. I'ts hard to tell without testing on an actual human but I feel that at best it's a mix up. If you condition your opponenet to not jump over you back on to the stage or to spot dodge we catch them with the CS. In some MUs where characters on the ledge have their hitboxes exposed to CS, it's best to just get back on stage and shoot them that way.

If you go into the lab on this I'd love to know.

Slightly off topic: Have you tried risimg SH Bair to B reversed CS? It's a pretty dope string that I feel has a lot of potential.

 

[Bonk!]

I'm new to samus so I might look like an idiot asking this, but is it really hard to reverse cs? I feel like the timing to reverse it is a lot smaller than other specials with charges (lucario, wft, etc.). Am I wrong for thinking this or is it true?

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

I'm new to samus so I might look like an idiot asking this, but is it really hard to reverse cs? I feel like the timing to reverse it is a lot smaller than other specials with charges (lucario, wft, etc.). Am I wrong for thinking this or is it true?

The timing is exactly the same for everyone if I'm not mistaken. If anything I can surmise that you're crossing yourself up with your muscle memory for missiles as the inputs are pretty similar and are ingrained pretty deeply into us since we need to use them with so much frequency. Like any tech just practice it and it'll become second nature. Note that if you're trying this online, the inputs could be dropped due to latency which makes this along with a lot of other tech less easily reproduced.

 

[DungeonMaster]

GdspdUblkprzdnt, yeah I am *not* good enough right now to pull it off consistently, and definitely not in a clutch situation yet. However I really think there's a lot of potential here, you ledge guard by running off the ledge, trumping, then CS immediate kill.
The way this looks is very cool I must add. My friend cannot seem to escape it with DI, airdodge or jump, the charge shot is too big and fast it seems.
The only thing I'm unsure about is rolling out of the ledge grab, which seems to be immediate and the defence against trumping, like 1 frame, so aggressively trumping can be v.difficult.
And yeah B-air -> reverse CS is pretty sweet. I haven't tried rising B-air -> rev CS yet. So many strings...

Bonk! Yeah the killer for me is my instinct to do a ganon B-reverse warlock punch, so if you're trained to hit the opposite direction after, this one is before and the stick must return to neutral so it's a tiny movement. I'm no god at this, but give me a year...

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

GdspdUblkprzdnt, yeah I am *not* good enough right now to pull it off consistently, and definitely not in a clutch situation yet. However I really think there's a lot of potential here, you ledge guard by running off the ledge, trumping, then CS immediate kill.
The way this looks is very cool I must add. My friend cannot seem to escape it with DI, airdodge or jump, the charge shot is too big and fast it seems.
The only thing I'm unsure about is rolling out of the ledge grab, which seems to be immediate and the defence against trumping, like 1 frame, so aggressively trumping can be v.difficult.
And yeah B-air -> reverse CS is pretty sweet. I haven't tried rising B-air -> rev CS yet. So many strings...

Bonk! Yeah the killer for me is my instinct to do a ganon B-reverse warlock punch, so if you're trained to hit the opposite direction after, this one is before and the stick must return to neutral so it's a tiny movement. I'm no god at this, but give me a year...

So it's definetly garuanteed? My god, Pinbacker. My god. The deal then is to condition people to stay at the ledge to do this. Punishing his ledge options to make him feel the ledge is safe and swoopimg im at the timliest moment for the kill.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

So it's definetly garuanteed? My god, Pinbacker. My god. The deal then is to condition people to stay at the ledge to do this. Punishing his ledge options to make him feel staying on the ledge is safe and swooping in at the timliest moment for titself he kill.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I would say it's not guaranteed just yet, I'm a decent Samus my friend likewise respectable, but not pros. We need pros with that twitch level timing and skill to confirm.
Doing this at 1/4 speed in training and failing at it quite often, my control just not good enough yet.

But yes, if it does guaranteed work, it means one of the base mechanics of the game - grabbing the ledge - could be a death sentence vs. a highly skilled Samus.

 

[Afro Smash]

Another fun thing is, if you're the one to get trumped you can immediately fire the CS to punish someone trying to punish you with Bair as long as their bair doesnt have huge range like sheiks

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Let's clarify something here guys, are we ledge dropping to jump before we reverse CS or are we letting go and immediately reverse CS? I can easily see this causing discrepancies.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

I would say it's not guaranteed just yet, I'm a decent Samus my friend likewise respectable, but not pros. We need pros with that twitch level timing and skill to confirm.
Doing this at 1/4 speed in training and failing at it quite often, my control just not good enough yet.

But yes, if it does guaranteed work, it means one of the base mechanics of the game - grabbing the ledge - could be a death sentence vs. a highly skilled Samus.

Let's keep this between us bros, man. Can't have any of the riff raff maining our robot lady. Aside from Charge shot, our ledge trumps can lead into a Utilt which is also VERY deadly. The overall skill level of Samus mains improve, I'm pretty sure Samus will be recognized as having one of the deadliest edge games. We seem to have so many options on and against the ledge.

EDIT: Double post. I can't seem to do anything on my phone browser.

 

[Rohins]

This looks interesting. May I make a vid of it? I'll give you credit,

 

[DungeonMaster]

Absolutely Rohins, by all means.
Still experimenting with best way to set this up, with/without jump. Jump seems essential to line you up correctly (and live, and take the stage back...), not entirely sure though in how it clips certain heavy character hurtboxes.
Input I'm using is grab-ledge -> slight tap back -> jump + slight tap back -> B.

If I could suggest a track for vid: http://www.metroid-database.com/music/mp2/51 - Ending Staff Roll.mp3

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

I was in the lab on this yesterday with a friend. This is extremely far from garuanteed. It's a huge for a mix up but difficult to set up. In all honesty a non B reversed version aimed at the ledge is better and more likely to hit since it's more easily timed. You can hit an opponent either on the ledge or on their way towards it while covering the immediate are behind you with CS's massive hit box.

The ledge trump to BRCS covers some aerial approaches but covers a return to the ledge most effectively. Safe options against BRCS are recovering high and recovering low which is hands down the safest against BRCS but argueably the best option for us to conditiom them into since it can lead to so many set ups , giving us time follow up with whatever we want once they return to the ledge and have no vulnerability

 

[DungeonMaster]

That's a pity if so, thought I had something big. Are you sure you're performing it correctly? I see no jump animation when I do this with precision and from your description you're moving quite far from the wall/ledge to get the forward going CS hitbox to hit a trumped target.

 

[Afro Smash]

Whats the exact input for this? I assume it's Left/Down > Jump > Left > B (swap left for right depending on the side of the stage ofc)

I can see this working sometimes, but far from guaranteed

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

That's a pity if so, thought I had something big. Are you sure you're performing it correctly? I see no jump animation when I do this with precision and from your description you're moving quite far from the wall/ledge to get the forward going CS hitbox to hit a trumped target.

When doing a CS toward the stage I'm jumping away first but yeah, the ledge drop to insta BRCS I'm doing and if your opponent stays still he'll just fall without getting hit so he does have options.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I don't drop, if you drop, you often miss the target. What characters are you trumping?
The input again is: grab-ledge -> slight tap back -> jump + slight tap back -> B.
Slight tap to release ledge, not down or you fast fall.
Jump + slight tap simultaneous to rise into alignment with trumped target.
The charge shot is 2 frames, if you can land a B-air, you can land the shot, in theory. Rohins any luck?
I'm thinking of getting a capture device, any other good (less $$ than elgato) suggestions to upload video?

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

I'm doing exactly what you described. My word choice was poor when using the word "drop". I took a Cpt. Falcon to the lab with me. Not sure how much ledge trumps vary from character to character. I'd loved to be proven wrong though, a ledge trump to BRCS would be so ridiculous if garuanteed.

 

[Rohins]

I don't drop, if you drop, you often miss the target. What characters are you trumping?
The input again is: grab-ledge -> slight tap back -> jump + slight tap back -> B.
Slight tap to release ledge, not down or you fast fall.
Jump + slight tap simultaneous to rise into alignment with trumped target.
The charge shot is 2 frames, if you can land a B-air, you can land the shot, in theory. Rohins any luck?
I'm thinking of getting a capture device, any other good (less $$ than elgato) suggestions to upload video?

I messed with it some last night, wasn't getting very good results. I'll test it some more, I'll have time to record this weekend.

As far as capture device, I really like my Avermedia LGP. PC free mode makes it pretty easy to capture replays. I don't experience any lag when recording while playing either. If you're interested in streaming I prob would stay away from it. My friend's overheated after a few months. He streams multiple days a week, multiple hour sessions.

 

[Xygonn]

If you just want a demo of the tech in action, cell phone video is good enough even if it isn't pretty.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I learned yesterday that tethering to a stage gives you 7 frames before you can act, whereas snapping on from other moves makes you wait 23 frames.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwpIxtg82I0#t=210
Because I was just trying to "set this up" in the first place, I was tethering. This may explain the discrepancy between what I'm seeing and what other are.
Very situational irrespective.

 

[RoachCake]

I guess that's how I've been able to throw out getup attacks as soon as I retract the tether.
Also, that tip from the video about using your tether to save your ledge invincibility could be useful.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

I learned yesterday that tethering to a stage gives you 7 frames before you can act, whereas snapping on from other moves makes you wait 23 frames.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwpIxtg82I0#t=210
Because I was just trying to "set this up" in the first place, I was tethering. This may explain the discrepancy between what I'm seeing and what other are.
Very situational irrespective.

So there's literally no reason to grab the ledge when we've the option to tether. Granted, tethering is a little more riskier since you don't have invincibility.

That's really interesting and it makes me wonder why it works like that. Does this apply to all characters with tethers?

 

[HeroMystic]

That's really interesting and it makes me wonder why it works like that. Does this apply to all characters with tethers?

Yes it does. I did the same thing with ZSS when I was playing around with her.

Edit: If we use a tether to ledge-trump, wouldn't it be better to sweetspot a b-air?

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Sounds about right. Bair should typically be fresher than CS in most cases.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Gentlemen and ladies, we're not just here for function, we also want style!
Yes the back-air is much easier to perform, and by frames I think is actually guaranteed with tether recovery, but the reverse charge shot trump is stylish. And it hurts more.

Well whatever, I'm happy this led somewhere.

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

Maybe I'm just bad but I cannot B-reverse Charge shot at all, even at 1/4 speed. I started to think it wasn't even possible. I can perform a wall jump in order to turn around, but I feel like that isn't fast enough. (Unless that's actually how you are turning around with your charge shots and I'm just slow.)

 

[Afro Smash]

It's definitely possible, the input is:

Left/Right (opposite to wherever you're facing) > B

Best way to do it is just flick it because holding it too long will make a homing missile to come out, and B has to be pressed immediately after you flick the circle pad

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

It's definitely possible, the input is:

Left/Right (opposite to wherever you're facing) > B

Best way to do it is just flick it because holding it too long will make a homing missile to come out, and B has to be pressed immediately after you flick the circle pad

So the direction is pressed BEFORE B? That seems really strange, but it indeed does work now. Thank you.

 

[Rohins]

Anyone mess with canceling a missile off the edge to use your grapple to trump then use reverse chargeshot?

 

[RoachCake]

Is that actually possible? Wouldn't you be too close to the edge for the grapple to work?

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Is that actually possible? Wouldn't you be too close to the edge for the grapple to work?

I do it all the time against characters with harmless recoveries. You can hang off the most negligible length of tether and snap to the ledge instantly as they grab it. If you do it during their 23 frames of ledge snap lag their helpless to you trumping them. I use it to set up for a utilt once they return to the ledge.

 

[Doval]

I do it all the time against characters with harmless recoveries. You can hang off the most negligible length of tether and snap to the ledge instantly as they grab it. If you do it during their 23 frames of ledge snap lag their helpless to you trumping them. I use it to set up for a utilt once they return to the ledge.

Not true. They can buffer a command to avoid getting trumped. You still force them to act with predictable timing one way or the other. If they roll you might not be able to punish though.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Not true. They can buffer a command to avoid getting trumped. You still force them to act with predictable timing one way or the other. If they roll you might not be able to punish though.

Like you said though it's a pretty predictable time frame. If they buffer a roll they still have to deal with the ledge snap lag of which we having used a tether suffer less. Couldn't we roll or get up to punish a roll on their emd?

 

[Doval]

Like you said though it's a pretty predictable time frame. If they buffer a roll they still have to deal with the ledge snap lag of which we having used a tether suffer less. Couldn't we roll or get up to punish a roll on their emd?

Oh, sure. If you read correctly you can punish any of their options. I just wanted to clarify they do have options and that I don't think there's any way to cover all of them. It's still a bad position for them to be in, and I didn't even know the tether would let you act first.

 

[Johnniewalkker]

Any video footage of this?

 

[DungeonMaster]

It's definitely on my list to get a vid of this at some point. In light of new patch, holding off until we see what happens.

 

[Afro Smash]

@ Johnniewalkker

It looks like it definitely covers their jump (which virtually everyone does) and if choose to go low we can just wait on stage and Up Tilt or run off Bair

 

[New Age Retro Hippie]

Good to have a video uploaded. Even if not guaranteed, this feels like a great option to have and will most definitely go unexpected in action.