Retro Joystick Style

[jayeldeee]

I've been thinking about something lately that could possibly add some fun to the game. As we've all seen, fighting games have always had their crazy fans that want that arcade stimulation. Mash a few buttons and grasping the joystick are some of the intense feelings that an arcade gamer like me would like. Now of course, most popular fighting games are in the arcade and up for play. This leads to this discussion (This is a better topic for Melee for the reason of it being such a popular and very technical game. I also understand there's that Soul Calibur 2 special joystick, but we're going to skip over that for this discussion).

How would the community like to experiment with using an arcade style joystick to play Melee? How would the button set up be? What are some pros? What are some cons? What good can come out of it? What are some setbacks? Anyone have any prototype drawings? These are just some questions that could be answered. How would everyone fare with this type of controller to play the game?

For me, I would like to experiment with it, but I feel dead center between it being a good idea and a bad idea. But I want to know what all of you think.

 

[Comatose]

Cons:
-Hard transition for pretty much anyone who plays melee, competitive and casual players alike
-doesn't really seem like it would help at all, especially with a lot of the metagame involving mindgaming such as dash dancing (the gc control stick is so much easier to manipulate than a giant joystick). By the same token, sdi would be much harder due to maneuverability issues.
-the layout would be awkward, all the buttons would have to be controlled by one hand while the other just uses a joystick (and what would you do with the c-stick? Put another joystick in? Cuz that would destroy maneuverability even further, having to move around a whole different joystick when trying to do a shffl, since most people input the attacks with the c-stick for aerials, then having to reach with the same hand to cancel it, just doesn't make sense)
-much bulkier than a gc controller, if made
-a lot of time and effort would have to be put into this, which most of the community wouldn't have any interest in using
-would probably be weird to bring to tournament play. On one hand the TO might think there's some weird mod to it, basically cheating, and not let you use it. On the other, if you do get to use it, unless you've used it since you started playing, youre at a disadvantage.
-the modifications that would have to be done might add some input lag (not sure about this, but its a possibility)

Pros:
-I guess some traditional fighters might become more interested in the game
-it would be a cool novelty item


Really I think the introduction of traditional fighter controller layout would take away from melees novelty. I think itd be a fun project for someone somewhere to do, but not one that many would see value in.

Maybe in a few more decades, when gc controllers have all but disappeared, but til then don't fix what isn't broken.

Edit: popped into my head while falling asleep:
It would be an incredible novelty item if someone were to put a crtv in an arcade game housing, with the melee setup inside, using some form of arcade joystick style setup. It still wouldn't be effective, but would be something fun to own

 

[jayeldeee]

Yeah, I was thinking would just be kind of cool to test out and play around with. It's nothing too serious in the aspect of, "Let's use this for a tournament," but rather, "Hey, let's add a little bit of a challenge" sort of playing. I'm well aware this isn't like your traditional fighting game so it is much different setup

And crap, I completely forgot about the c-stick in all of this. Yeah, another joystick would definitely not work at all as it would just make the game that much more harder to play efficiently.

And making Melee an arcade style game overall. I'd have to see this sometime. That would be pretty interesting to have.

The idea of making probably wouldn't actually come till much later, but just like the concept for it seemed interesting. I wouldn't expect anybody to actually do this unless they were completely crazy about the idea. I'm sure not, but I just wanted to get an idea out and see what other people thought about it. I know there's definitely a lot of issues that would arise out it, especially because that wouldn't be traditional play of the game at all.

 

[Shikenshu]

http://smashboards.com/threads/melee-project-fight-stick.315481/
The thread is dead though, but the idea was nice.

Also, the fact that you control buttons with one hand (4 fingers) is an advantage because it makes technical stuff easier (multishine is so easy if you only have to pummel 2 arcade button)

 

[jayeldeee]

Hmm, I never found that thread. Maybe because it's been dead for almost a year, LOL. Well, maybe this could be its revival. Or not. I think that if people started experimenting with this stuff, they could find what controller they'd want to use, but then will it be tournament legal?

And that is true. I know techniques might be easier such as multishining, but then you have those who'd have to get used to the c-stick being buttons instead of a quick push.

 

[Massive]

I still think about it from time to time.
I have so many projects to worry about at the moment though, it's hard to find time to build anything like this.

Also, there's a rather sizable chunk of gamecube controller zealots who think that no controller will ever be as good as the gamecube controller, even when the controller is probably putting an artificial ceiling on the limits of tech-skill most people can attain.

 

[TerryJ]

Eventually I want to build a fightstick of my own for the Gamecube. Not to mention my roommate pretty much won't play with me because he sticks to classic 2D Fighters with his own Arcade Stick. I might try and find/make a converter for him in the future.

It should be pretty easy to make new buttons/sticks and just solder them to the right points on the GCC board. IIRC people in the older thread have talked about making the C-stick into buttons for easier play. I've never made any sort of plastic housing before though so it's way beyond me right now.

 

[pokemongeof]

It would be cool to try this. Also if i could use it for the other fighting games that would be even better!

 

[jayeldeee]

I guess it really just depends on the person too. If people had experimented on the arcade controller, it might prove to be better to control. But this honestly depends on the person's play style and experience with each one.

Eventually I want to build a fightstick of my own for the Gamecube. Not to mention my roommate pretty much won't play with me because he sticks to classic 2D Fighters with his own Arcade Stick. I might try and find/make a converter for him in the future.

It should be pretty easy to make new buttons/sticks and just solder them to the right points on the GCC board. IIRC people in the older thread have talked about making the C-stick into buttons for easier play. I've never made any sort of plastic housing before though so it's way beyond me right now.

Hmmm, well it'd be nice to have one to possibly gain a new SSB player then. And I did a looking at the old thread too and for me, the c-stick buttons seemed out of place. I know some techniques can be initiated through it, but it just seemed to be in odd placements.

It would be cool to try this. Also if i could use it for the other fighting games that would be even better!

Shooo, I didn't even think of that. I believe they have a Capcom vs SNK and a Bloody Roar from the Gamecube too, no?

 

[Kadano]

The “no c-stick” argument kills the arcade stick idea completely.

Also, there's a rather sizable chunk of gamecube controller zealots who think that no controller will ever be as good as the gamecube controller, even when the controller is probably putting an artificial ceiling on the limits of tech-skill most people can attain.

I dislike all controllers ever released. None of them are designed for using more than two of your fingers on each hand. It makes no sense. In my opinion, controllers should have additional buttons for the middle and ring fingers.
Why is our right thumb expected to press four buttons and an analog stick while six fingers remain without any tasks apart from holding the controller?

If GCCs had larger models available, thicker handles and additional buttons where the tips of our fingers rest (this way the lower parts of your fingers could still easily hold the controller), I’d call them the best controllers ever too. But as long as clawing—holding the controller completely different than it was designed to—has benefits, it’s more than obvious that the GCC’s design is flawed.

 

[rjgbadger]

just play claw BAM fixed you can use 3-4 fingers on your right hand for face buttons, Z and c stick

 

[Massive]

The “no c-stick” argument kills the arcade stick idea completely.

Can I ask why?

C-stick inputs have digital outcomes despite being analog inputs, the only thing the c-stick is doing is increasing the amount of time it takes to perform those inputs and preventing you from inputting two simultaneously. Honestly, there could've been another D-pad there and smash brothers would probably not play too differently from the way it is now.

Most of the c-stick button locations were postulated because having them adjacent to a jump and a shield means you could quickly L-cancel or perform a jump aerial attack more easily. Things like multi-shines or shorthop double-lasers become nearly trivial by comparison to the way the inputs are now. Easier inputs means more advanced tech skill can be attained by more people, advancing the metagame in new and exciting ways.

 

[Kadano]

C-stick inputs have digital outcomes despite being analog inputs, the only thing the c-stick is doing is increasing the amount of time it takes to perform those inputs and preventing you from inputting two simultaneously. Honestly, there could've been another D-pad there and smash brothers would probably not play too differently from the way it is now.

That’s not true. Just by looking at that “tilt menu screen with c-stick” gimmick you can clearly see that there are far more than just 9 different values the c-stick can feed to the game. I just ran some tests on ASDI with c-stick for angles 45, ~35 and ~55 and all produce different character positions.

 

[Massive]

That’s not true. Just by looking at that “tilt menu screen with c-stick” gimmick you can clearly see that there are far more than just 9 different values the c-stick can feed to the game. I just ran some tests on SDI with c-stick for angles 45, ~35 and ~55 and all produce different character positions.

Being that you can still SDI with the main stick, and that you've still got access to arguably the most useful directions on the c-stick to begin with I don't really see this as a substantial issue.

Adding another analog C-stick just for DI would be pretty trivial too, although I feel like it would be a waste of space, personally.

 

[Kadano]

Being that you can still SDI with the main stick, and that you've still got access to arguably the most useful directions on the c-stick to begin with I don't really see this as a substantial issue.

I made a mistake, I meant ASDI and not SDI. For double stick techs, it’s sometimes necessary to hold a different directions on control stick and c-stick. As the c-stick is usually held straight down, a d-pad would indeed have no disadvantage here, except for the slopes on YS and similar stuff.

For me, a controller that takes away input possibilities from the original is just not a viable option.

 

[Comatose]

Personally, I'd like to try to mod a gc controller so that you can use more than just like 4 fingers to play haha. Would increase tech skill possibilities drastically

 

[Acryte]

Yea that was my thread, it went on hiatus because I went on 2 deployments in the navy. Recently I've been working on developing my own fighting game. This is tucked between studying for advancement (navy), work, and studying the game of Go. My time is just too full right now.

 

[ycz12]

How would you lightshield?

 

[Acryte]

The L and R buttons would be pressure sensitive. You'd use analog L/R buttons on the controller. You could use the mechanisms from the actual L/R buttons

 

[Massive]

I think having a light-shield button would also be an acceptable option.

I've also considered creating a smash input device using a touch-pad instead of a joystick. That in itself would be pretty cool because you could label/mark touch spots/routes for certain things like maximum wavedash length or shield dropping. Additionally you could use multiple fingers to move, similarly to how you can jump a mouse cursor around on a regular touchpad.

It'd be like an analog version of the stick-less fightsticks floating around the traditional FGC.