Rethinking the roster

[RedMage8BT]

Waluigi and Stafy as assist trophies should get people to rethink their rosters. I've always had a feeling that only major franchise (meaning, important in their franchise, and decently prominent franchises) characters could get in Brawl, and this reinforces that. Waluigi was decently supported to be playable, and he's not because he's very unimportant in the Mario franchise despite being pretty unique, this is exactly why Daisy, Koopa Kid, Dry Bones, Koopa Troopa, Birdo, Baby Mario/Luigi, Toadette, or Paratroopa won't be playable. Seriously guys, be realistic. This was my original argument against Geno, until I realized that he could also serve as a Square rep. It still applies to him nonetheless. Face it, Geno is not very likely (even though he is pretty likely when compared to a lot of other characters). As for Stafy, he was also pretty widely requested, and that should show you that characters like Takamaru and that Pink Robot thing (his name escapes me) will almost certainly not be playable either. You need to consider the reasoning behind assist trophies before naming anyone playable.

 

[vesperview]

I completely agree.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Sukapon (the pink guy), Takamaru, Ness, and most importantly Geno should all be ATs for two reasons:

-That's what they deserve
-I can get revenge for Waluigi being deconfirmed mwhahahaha...

 

[RedMage8BT]

Think about it, every character announced so far is VERY important to their respective franchises. And every represented franchise (with the exception of the Ice Climbers, but even Ice Climber is not all that obscure in comparison to some that I've heard) is a prominent franchise.

 

[Black/Light]

I mostly argee. . . but there WIll be WTF characters.

 

[xzakcorex]

Think about it, every character announced so far is VERY important to their respective franchises. And every represented franchise (with the exception of the Ice Climbers, but even Ice Climber is not all that obscure in comparison to some that I've heard) is a prominent franchise.

Prominent franchises? Earthbound, Kid Icarus, Ice Climbers?
Important characters? Zero Suit Samus, Roy?

Fail, based on the fact that "prominent" is far to subjective of a word to throw around.

 

[RedMage8BT]

Prominent franchises? Earthbound, Kid Icarus, Ice Climbers?
Important characters? Zero Suit Samus, Roy?

Fail, based on the fact that "prominent" is far to subjective of a word to throw around.

Zero Suit Samus is Samus.

Roy is not confirmed for Brawl.

Kid Icarus is a Nintendo franchise with more than one game, and is relatively well known. You are correct that I shouldn't be throwing around the word prominent. I should say "not obscure". I think "Fail" is far "to" subjective of a word to throw around.

I said Ice Climber was an exception.

Earthbound is well-known in Japan, and it did get one relatively popular game in America, that's more than A LOT of what people suggest around here.

Regardless of what I say, today's update should make you at least rethink who's probable, who's possible, and who's not going to happen.

 

[Intercept]

Stafy and none of his games were ever released out of Japan. Trust me, if he had 4 games with worldwide releases he would almost certainly be playable.

Stafy and Waluigi both had at best decent followings. There are probably 30 more characters who are (or at least were) more requested then both of them.

Personally I don't care about Geno one way or the other. However, he is perhaps THE MOST REQUESTED CHARACTER WORLDWIDE (Other than characters who were in past smash games, and Ridley may or may not be, they're pretty close.)

Before someone says that's off-topic, it's completely on-topic. RedMage8BT (the topic creator) would have a point if those characters really were all that popular, but they aren't. At least Bowser Jr. and Geno are more requested from the Mario franchise. Sakurai natually assumes that Stafy isn't even known by most people outside of Japan (which he isn't, he's pretty much only known in the Smash community.)

The truth is, most ATs aren't all that popular.

Samurai Goroh- I'll give you that one. Most people thought he was a shoe-in prior to his deconfirmation.
Mr. Wright-Sim City character, not important or requested.
Knuckle Joe- Random generic Kirby character.
Devil- Not requested, and wouldn't be put in simply because of his name.
Andross- Doesn't have a body.
Lyn- She was fairly requested, but most of Fire Emblem's fanbase is Japanese and they don't tend to like her.
Mr. Resetti- Rarely requested.
Excitebiker- Not commonly requested.
Little Mac- Was only ever mentioned because Sakurai supposedly liked him a lot.
Gray Fox- 3rd party.
Saki- The game was never released in America. Until now, but they didn't know that when they started making Brawl.

I know that's only the ones on the Dojo, but my point stands. If anything only popular characters make it in as playable.

EDIT: Another random reason against Stafy. His build is way too similar to Kirby's or Jigglypuff's. It's kind of hard to create unique A moves.

 

[Darkurai]

I completely agree.

Let's all talk big.

On topic: I agree that only major characters from series should get in.

 

[Rikka]

Way to exaggerate Waluigi's and Stafy's popularity.

Though I did support Stafy, I was always aware his chances were slim.

 

[RedMage8BT]

I'm not trying to revolutionize your whole way of thinking, I'm just trying to make you (as a whole, not a specific person) think a little bit more. Take a look at the current roster, even in Melee, Roy, Ice Climbers, and Pichu were the only truly obscure characters. G&W was somewhat obscure, but he's important to Nintendo's history. Falco might return if they can make a good moveset for him. And Dr. Mario is a decently popular sub-franchise. Marth was a main character in Fire Emblem, which is very popular in Japan. They might have another Japan-only character, but only if they come from a popular franchise that has run for a while.

Little Mac was fairly popular, and I knew about Stafy from Super Princess Peach, not Smashboards.

 

[RedMage8BT]

Way to exaggerate Waluigi's and Stafy's popularity.

Though I did support Stafy, I was always aware his chances were slim.

I said Waluigi was "decently popular", and Stafy was "pretty widely requested", when I say that, I mean on Smash Boards.

 

[Intercept]

You're still exaggerating their popularity, even on Smash Boards. In fact, I'd say Waluigi was hardly requested on SWF. Also, as I pointed out, Stafy is pretty much only known in the Smash community (and apparently some appearance in SPP, sorry I haven't played the game.)

EDIT: Most of the time I saw someone say they would like Stafy, they also said they would like characters from other unrepresented franchises first and/or more.

 

[Saor Gael]

Personally, I don't think an obscure character like Sukapon is LIKELY, really . . .

It's that Sakurai seems to like to throw in old-school WTF characters into the games. I personally think he'll put in one or two more like that.

If he does, Sukapon would fit the criteria, as he has a moveset, is from a very early Nintendo fighting game, and is quite unique.

 

[Chaosblade77]

Staffy nor Waluigi had chances, ever. I mean, I guess Waluigi was below Staffy, but I think a lot of other Mario characters would get in before a filler for party and sports games would, like Bowser Jr, Geno (yes, Geno) and even Daisy. Why Geno and Daisy? Both had roles in REAL Mario games (not just sports and party games), and Geno has had a second appearance as a cameo due to his intense popularity. Both are known worldwide as well, whereas Staffy is not, that and his similarity to various other character really hurt him a lot.

Takamaru and Sukapon would be similar to Game and Watch if one or both of them got in, and Geno has a shot out of his shear popularity. He would have very likely been in more games had he not been owned by SquareEnix.

The only unconfirmed character that rival's Geno in terms of how wanted they are for Brawl is Ridley.

Honestly, I feel like some people don't support certain characters just to go against the grain and be different.

 

[Diddy&Dixie4evr]

I wasn't surprised that waluigi and stafy were put as assist trophies , what surprised me that they where on other peoples dream roster, even though they where not that important, or where not even released in america or in fact widely known, I didn't know who stafy was until I joined smash boards. It just other more important charecters will get in like k.rool, doxie, crystal, olimer, and wolf. As for the geno argument he was suggested alot on sakurais poll so he will likely make it on as rep for square.

 

[Intercept]

I agree with you Chaos, I believe a lot of people are either:

A) Base their statements on pure bias.

or

B) Non-conformist conformists.

On topic, like I said earlier, the only character who had a shot popularity wise that was made into an AT was Samurai Goroh. The only reason he had that popularity was because people thought F-Zero needed a 2nd character and just thought he was the most likely. So really most people were just supporting a 2nd F-Zero character. As long as F-Zero gets another character, Goroh doesn't really count either.

 

[Chaosblade77]

I agree with you Chaos, I believe a lot of people are either:
On topic, like I said earlier, the only character who had a shot popularity wise that was made into an AT was Samurai Goroh. The only reason he had that popularity was because people thought F-Zero needed a 2nd character and just thought he was the most likely. So really most people were just supporting a 2nd F-Zero character. As long as F-Zero gets another character, Goroh doesn't really count either.

Lyn's fanbase was pretty large everywhere except Japan, somewhat like Dark Samus in the case Ridley gets the boot. I suppose the difference there is Metroid has few characters to represent it and Fire Emblem has something like 30-50 unique characters per game.

 

[Intercept]

Like I said, she isn't highly requested in Japan. Japan matters a lot, especially for the FE franchise. In fact, I've heard quite a few times she's disliked, because that game had a long tutorial starring her. I don't even think she was the most popular character from her game in Japan. Marth seems likely to return and FE even getting a 3rd rep is questionable. If they did, it would most likely be up to who Japan wants. Surely Japan would get the main say on one of the 3 characters.

 

[Chaosblade77]

Like I said, she isn't highly requested in Japan. Japan matters a lot, especially for the FE franchise. In fact, I've heard quite a few times she's disliked, because that game had a long tutorial starring her. I don't even think she was the most popular character from her game in Japan. Marth seems likely to return and FE even getting a 3rd rep is questionable. If they did, it would most likely be up to who Japan wants. Surely Japan would get the main say on one of the 3 characters.

True. I just hope Japan doesn't get all of the say though, personally I would hate to have "Ike, Marth, Sigurd" as three reps from FE. I support Marth's return but feel Sigurd would be sort of redundant. I have nothing against him, he would be a great and worthy addition to the game, but I don't think that Fire Emblem is best represented by three blue haired swordsman. Heck, it's the only reason I support Micaiah, she is a FE mage that stands some chance, and that has the potential for uniqueness.

The problem is, she happens to fall in the same basket of apples as Lyn, will she end up as AT as well, or just a trophy or sticker? Will Fire Emblem have representation only containing swordsmen again? I suppose this is on topic, discussing characters chances based on deconfirmations.

 

[Qbuilderz]

I was a LITTLE (ha, i said little, but wrote it in big font XD) surprised it was a double updat style with two deconfirmations and 2 assists, so i was happy/sad.

but i have a question, do you think olimar would be playable, since he is the MAIN and has a good selling/popular game and huge fanbase?

 

[Intercept]

I don't know, FE has always been one of the series I haven't been very sure on. It has a lot of characters, some of whom are highly requested, but it's not that popular of a franchise in general. I personally wouldn't be surprised if it only get 2 characters. Personally, I think Micaiah simply has the best shot for advertising and diversity.

 

[Arteen]

This was my original argument against Geno, until I realized that he could also serve as a Square rep.

Honestly, that's a horrible reason for Geno's inclusion. He wouldn't make a decent Square rep. He's a one-off Mario character developed for a one-off deal with Nintendo. He is not important to Square. Square would certainly want to be represented by a character from its own franchises. That would be like Camelot getting represented by Waluigi instead of Isaac.

 

[Qbuilderz]

geno is one of my "meh" characters, i don't care if he is in or if he is out, so what ev! lol, and come someone please awnser my question (not to be annoying, though lol)

 

[Intercept]

Golden Sun characters and Waluigi aren't 3rd party. I agree that being a Square rep is a pretty poor reason to include him though.

Obuilderz, I feel Olimar stands a great chance of making it in Brawl. He's from a new franchise that managed to crank out a much-different/improved sequel on the same system. Also, he was created by Miyamoto, which certainly doesn't hurt. I would be very surprised if he was not playable.

 

[RedMage8BT]

Square created Geno, and because he's also a Mario character, he probably he's probably mire likely than a Final Fantasy character.

I think Olimar is pretty likely.

I also believe Isaac has a good chance.

 

[leprechaunlink727]

I think olimar has a great chance. he would have been in Melee, but Pikmin hadn't come out yet. As for Waluigi and Stafy, Stafy didn't really phase me. Waluigihowever, was my number one pick. i know he's only a filler character, but that's the only argument anyone has against him. He's hilarious, and he'll remain a filler character until Nintendo puts him in some **** games,(Like Brawl). And who doesn't want to have all 4 plumbers duke it out at once, assuming Wario gets his old costume? Whoever says Little Mac was unpopular has obviously never played Punch-Out. And his boxing would have made for a kind of moveset that is present in every fighting game but Smash.

 

[Intercept]

He wouldn't get in to "represent" Square though. He would be a Square character, and is likely to be in. Geno isn't exactly representative of Square. Megaman, just for instance, is representative of Capcom.

 

[Intercept]

Little Mac and the Punch-Out games were popular back in the day. I just said that he wasn't highly requested to be in Smash, because he wasn't. Also, they specifically didn't put Urban Champ in Melee because all he could do was punch and Little Mac is the same way. Also keep in the mind is that Smash is meant to draw from past games, so it would kind of go against that idea to completely make up a move set for Little Mac. This doesn't apply to Fox and Falcon however, since they are the main characters of very popular Nintendo series.

 

[Chaosblade77]

Honestly, that's a horrible reason for Geno's inclusion. He wouldn't make a decent Square rep. He's a one-off Mario character developed for a one-off deal with Nintendo. He is not important to Square. Square would certainly want to be represented by a character from its own franchises. That would be like Camelot getting represented by Waluigi instead of Isaac.

On top of that, why exactly does Square as a company "deserve" a rep? Nearly all of their work has been done on playstation consoles, not Nintendo. When looking at it from that angle, Namco and Capcom are the two companies with the biggest chance for a rep due to how close they are to Nintendo. I don't really think company has to do with the character included as far as third party goes, it has to do with what that individual character has done for Nintendo.

That is why characters like Geno and Mega Man are seen as likely. Just think what the sales will be like when SMRPG is released on the VC...

Golden Sun characters and Waluigi aren't 3rd party. I agree that being a Square rep is a pretty poor reason to include him though.

Obuilderz, I feel Olimar stands a great chance of making it in Brawl. He's from a new franchise that managed to crank out a much-different/improved sequel on the same system. Also, he was created by Miyamoto, which certainly doesn't hurt. I would be very surprised if he was not playable.

I don't think Pikmin will be represented by anything less than AT. Either Olimar will be playable, or there will be some sort of Pikmin AT.

 

[EdwardGordon]

I went ahead and re-thought my roster after reading this and came up with a very reasonble list of 39 characters.

 

[Qbuilderz]

wheres it at? can i see it!? i just finished mine lol! 40 characters (hoping for 45-50 tho)

 

[Intercept]

That could be good. I certainly agree random generics and semi-popular spin-off characters won't be in.

 

[EdwardGordon]

wheres it at? can i see it!? i just finished mine lol! 40 characters (hoping for 45-50 tho)

I posted it in the "How many characters do you expect" thread:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=127746&page=8

 

[Superninjabreadman]

Geno is popular on smashboards. Not as much the general population. of smash players. one of the main reasons he may not be in.

 

[Intercept]

Well smash players are the target audience. So if he's the most popular character in both the east and west (except for maybe Ridley) he still stands a very good chance.

 

[joeysmash]

Geno is popular on smashboards. Not as much the general population. of smash players. one of the main reasons he may not be in.

so true. i mean come on..... think of all the other people who could get a spot.

 

[Intercept]

Ok, he also fits the mold of retro/obscure. Again, smash players are the people who play smash. Do you really think he'll turn down a retro/obscure character who is requested incredibly often? I'm not saying he'll definitely be in, I just think people who say he have no chance are thinking about it.

 

[bballstar23]

Geno is popular on smashboards. Not as much the general population. of smash players. one of the main reasons he may not be in.

That is why he'd be a perfect WTF character for the general public, and also help boost sales of Super Mario RPG for the VC to let people know more about him.

 

[Mad555]

Sukapon (the pink guy), Takamaru, Ness, and most importantly Geno should all be ATs for two reasons:

-That's what they deserve
-I can get revenge for Waluigi being deconfirmed mwhahahaha...

Ugh, you clearly dont know Geno's legal situation, He is either a PC or not in Brawl at all.