Rest and Shield-break punishing strategies

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#41
my friend was jiggs and missed a rest on my marth.
i charged neutral B shield breaker thingy lol
instead of hitting him right before he woke up, i waited a second and he instinctively blocked.

and we all know happens when swordbreaker is fully charged.
and we all know what happens to jiggs when her shield breaks.
 

KirbyKaze

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#44
The reason CC:ing doesn't work normally in sheik's up-b lag or rest lag (or any type of lag) is because your not actually CC:ing, you're just ASDI'ing down. ASDI down has the same effect on most attacks as CC:ing does, as long as your char doesn't fall over from them.

The reason it does is because ASDI down will make you touch the ground on the same frame that you would've been sent flying. And on many attacks touching the ground will CANCEL all the hitstun. There are exceptions to this rule (like meteors and spikes always have the same amount of ground stun). But for things like sex kicks, tilts (usually), smashes (might be exceptions) it almost always works (unless the attack makes you fall over, off course)
There are probably details here I'm missing, but I've tested this alot and it seems to be the general rule.

But ASDI down doesn't ACTUALLY reduce hitstun in the way that normal CC:ing would (which is why the stun of meteors and spikes remain the same)

I'm guessing that because needles don't send you in the air, it has ground stun in the same way that meteors and spikes do. So ASDI down won't cancel the hitstun in any way (most likely)

Buut if needles->grab is never a real combo they can always buffer spot dodge out of it, regardless of DI. It is very likely that that's the case, I've shined out of it as fox (more then once). Also, the timing for a needles->dsmash combo in training mode is pretty tight, and dsmash is faster then a grab... the more I think about it, I realize that needles->grab most likely it isn't a real combo

So yhea, dthrow->arial should be the best option (if they're not killing range).
This explains so much.

But yeah. If that's the case if Puff is on a platform I'd say SHFFLing U-air into something would be better than D-throw --> Aerial because you can always do D-smash if she ground techs, if she gets knocked over, and if she goes airborne you can just Nair or something to follow.

But that's complicated and D-throw is easier.

I'd need AR to test whether needles --> grab can ever be a true combo. My gut says yes, if the needle is done perfectly, because you can do Needles --> SH Nair if you do the needle perfectly and the Nair perfectly (and SH Nair comes out frame 6) but again that's not perfect testing because it's frame 6.

I guess I could try to make the SH Bair (frame 4 so it would be after SH frame 7) connect but the hitbox is woefully small :/
 

soap

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#47
needles to chain awww ya....

but seriously low percents i just walk up to them charge up needles, then just grab.

sometimes i go for shffl bair to grab too, it seems to work better than fair to grab + more damage and is safe from any type of cc shenanigans.
 
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#49
assuming they're at 0% or reasonably low

fox: lasers then drill -> up tilt X2 (maybe 3) -> up air.

falcon: stomp X2 -> tech chase down throw/stomp -> knee/stomp(and try your luck) =P

falco:
- try to triple shine lol
- Dair -> up tilt X2 -> Dair -> tech chase

Sheik: needles -> down/up/f tilt -> move

mario/doc: cape X4 -> something

Ganon: same as falcon w/o knee

roy: reverse up-B

pichu: =S
- thunder?
- nair -> up smash

so many ideas
 
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#50
This explains so much.

But yeah. If that's the case if Puff is on a platform I'd say SHFFLing U-air into something would be better than D-throw --> Aerial because you can always do D-smash if she ground techs, if she gets knocked over, and if she goes airborne you can just Nair or something to follow.

But that's complicated and D-throw is easier.

I'd need AR to test whether needles --> grab can ever be a true combo. My gut says yes, if the needle is done perfectly, because you can do Needles --> SH Nair if you do the needle perfectly and the Nair perfectly (and SH Nair comes out frame 6) but again that's not perfect testing because it's frame 6.

I guess I could try to make the SH Bair (frame 4 so it would be after SH frame 7) connect but the hitbox is woefully small :/
Needles->nair can register as a real combo?

If this is true, then that means.... that a perfectly timed needles->grab ISN'T escapeable (even if it isn't a real combo.) :O

Because:
Dodge Ratings - Here's a list I made of everyone's dodge ratings, statistically proven with frames counts on the frames of the dodge that you're ALWAYS invincible to ALL attacks. The number on the left half of the fraction is the amount of frames you're actually dodging (in other words, how many frames you're invincible and can't be harmed) while the number on the right half of the fraction is the total time that the dodge lasts. The percent of the dodge that you're ALWAYS invincible is written in a percent, and a ..... means it's a repeating decimal. Note: almost all of the dodges start on frame 2, so in other words, for most of the dodges when you start them, you can only be hit the FIRST frame of the dodge. Some characters, like Captain Falcon and Zelda, start their invincible part of the dodge on the 3rd frame, and Bowser starts his on the 4th frame. Note that for 99% of attacks, Zelda is invincible for the 2nd frame + (but certain explosion moves can hit her on the 3rd frame of the move so it still counts as starting it on the 3rd frame)
So, even if they would start their spot dodge on the very first possible frame, they'd get grabbed since the first frame of the spot dodge isn't invincible.

Also, Magus told me that if you buffer something with Shield+C-stick, you will shield on the first frame and then do whatever you buffered after that frame. (if it is after lag)

So in other words: If they are in stun from the needles long enough for SH nair to combo, which is 6 frames, you'll be able to grab them since they won't be invincible until frame 8 from a perfectly timed spot dodge (and frame 9 with a buffered spot dodge). [grab comes out on frame 7]

Off course, this assumes frame perfect timing and if you miss it you'll get rest ***** really hard in the ***. But if you want to be risky it can work.
 
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#52
oh **** my theory got ***** D=
That's really good to know, tho. I had no idea.
So needles->grab is inescapeable above a certain %?
BTW, can needles stun time somehow be affected by down ASDI? Or does the stun work in the same way it does for meteors and spikes do before they make you fall over?
 

Magus420

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#54
It should be inescapable at any % if you do it right. At low damage it depends a lot more on when the last needle comes out before landing though.

ASDI down only works on moves if it causes you to land, and the landing animation is what cancels the stun. Needles have a horizontal trajectory so you never lift off the ground from them to be able to land and cancel the stun unless on a downwards slope.

Also, since it doesn't have a trajectory above horizontal the game doesn't let you A/SDI upwards, so you can't force a landing that way. You also can't use trajectory DI on these hits before they put you into a tumble either, so you can't directional DI the needle upwards to have it send you at a slightly upward angle and lift you off the floor while ASDIing down to land.

For spikes and meteors they send you down into the stage, and the same DI restrictions apply to prevent landings that would cancel the stun. The way they work is before the launch power is strong enough to make you go into a tumble you get hit down into the floor without bouncing off of it and just stay there in stun. After it puts you in a tumble you instead bounce off of it and lose 20% of your speed from the impact and go upwards with your stun.
 
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#55
Ah, I see.... Thanks alot man. :)

Also, since it doesn't have a trajectory above horizontal the game doesn't let you A/SDI upwards, so you can't force a landing that way. You also can't use trajectory DI on these hits before they put you into a tumble either, so you can't directional DI the needle upwards to have it send you at a slightly upward angle and lift you off the floor while ASDIing down to land.
So there is forbidden ASDI? I thought there was only forbidden SDI.

Btw, does this mean that when the nair->grounded shine* combo isn't actually a true combo but only works because you shine them during the 4 frame landing lag (that canceled the stun). Or does fox's nair somehow have ground stun?

*by grounded shine i mean that the opponent acts as if he was shined on the ground, and not in the air. (doesnt have anything to do with fox or the shine being in the air lol :p)
 

ChRed2AKrisp

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#56
Why would any C.Falcon player NOT Falcon Punch an open opponent?
For two reasons. One, i'm fairly sure a fully charged fsmash is more damaging, so if they aren't going to die from either one, you should do the fsmash. Two, the fsmash cannot be double stick teched. Falcon punch can, and since it's got a predictable time frame (charge up, no way to hold vary when the hitbox comes out) it's one of the easiest moves to double stick tech in the game when you figure it out.

With samus against jiggs I would always drop a bomb, then grab as the bomb hits, hit them a couple times, dthrow, and then short hop a charge blast.

I wonder if it's possible to drop two bombs next to jiggs, have the first one bombjump you over the jiggs into a smash missile, which then has the knockback canceled by the second bomb, into a grab to charge blast. or just a charge blast if they're at high enough percent.
 

2.72

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#57
Why would any C.Falcon player NOT Falcon Punch an open opponent?
Because if jiggles misses a rest you can taunt and then Falcon Punch, which is far more manly.

Charging a smash because it deals more damage is just stupid. Who cares if it deals more damage? Falcon Punch deals more awesome.
 

Magus420

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#61
Ah, I see.... Thanks alot man. :)


So there is forbidden ASDI? I thought there was only forbidden SDI.

Btw, does this mean that when the nair->grounded shine* combo isn't actually a true combo but only works because you shine them during the 4 frame landing lag (that canceled the stun). Or does fox's nair somehow have ground stun?

*by grounded shine i mean that the opponent acts as if he was shined on the ground, and not in the air. (doesnt have anything to do with fox or the shine being in the air lol :p)
Yes. You'd have to be hitting them after they landed in that case.

Also, needle->n-air registers as a combo even on Bowser at 0% if timed right.
 

soap

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#62
It registered when I did it at like 20 (staled needles). For fresh needles it registered at 15.

I had to hit with 2-3 needles in testing for the nair to work.
so needles to jab/tilt is a true inescapable combo?

can u CC needles ive heard people say u technically cant, does this mean that the following tilt cant be cc'd if they are hit while still in stun?

im just kinda confused about when something can be CC'd and when it cant. if they are doing a ground move and u hit them can they CC while they are still in lag?
 

Magus420

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#64
Being in a crouching state reduces the launch speed and with it the stun time and point where it makes you fall down.

What people usually refer to by "crouch canceling", is crouching to have reduced launch power while also ASDIing down, so when they'd normally get popped into the air they instead immediately land due to the ASDI downwards and then the landing animation cancels the stun. You can still get the same effect without being able to crouch and just ASDIing down, but you don't get the reduced knockback from the crouch so it will stop working at lower damages.

You can't cancel the stun on the needles like I mentioned earlier because you can't cause a landing to have that cancel out the stun, but you can still get the reduced launch power from being in a crouching state (obviously you can't though if you are unable to actually crouch at that time).

It doesn't cancel the stun, but it will be reduced since the knockback will be smaller. However, hitting someone who's crouching with more than one needle will have the needles after the first still hit while they're stunned and will break the crouching state and they will be stunned normally after that.

Same thing with Fox's d-air. You can't crouch cancel it because it doesn't have an upwards trajectory and you can't cause a landing off the hit since you never leave the ground, but you can still get reduced stun on the first hit from crouching. The 2nd hit will still connect during that reduced stun time from the 1st though when you're then stunned and no longer crouching, and then the following hits will all act normally.


For the needle->tilt, while the tilt can connect during the needle's stun and they can't actually be crouching when it hits to get the reduced knockback part, they can still ASDI 'cancel' the tilt if the distance they get sent upwards on the 1st frame isn't greater than the distance the ASDI moves them downwards.

If the tilt doesn't send them upwards enough on the first frame to overpower the ASDI down, but the knockback is still strong enough to put them in a tumble they'll just instantly fall over and hit the ground. They'll also be able to instantly tech it when that happens if they time it right.


Needle grab is guaranteed on Jiggs if it's done correctly. Bowser is stunned from a needle for like 10-11 frames even at 0%. If the last needle hits just before landing they don't have time to sidestep or roll before getting grabbed.
 

soap

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#65
It doesn't cancel the stun, but it will be reduced since the knockback will be smaller. However, hitting someone who's crouching with more than one needle will have the needles after the first still hit while they're stunned and will break the crouching state and they will be stunned normally after that.
thats really useful to know, in addition to the rest of the post.

but what about that autocrouch cancel thing with the cstick where u hold down on the cstick to crouch cancel. can u be running while holding down on the cstick and still crouch cancel or did u have to be neutral?

btw how do u ASDI?
 

BrawlLover

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#66
Being in a crouching state reduces the launch speed and with it the stun time and point where it makes you fall down.

What people usually refer to by "crouch canceling", is crouching to have reduced launch power while also ASDIing down, so when they'd normally get popped into the air they instead immediately land due to the ASDI downwards and then the landing animation cancels the stun. You can still get the same effect without being able to crouch and just ASDIing down, but you don't get the reduced knockback from the crouch so it will stop working at lower damages.

You can't cancel the stun on the needles like I mentioned earlier because you can't cause a landing to have that cancel out the stun, but you can still get the reduced launch power from being in a crouching state (obviously you can't though if you are unable to actually crouch at that time).

It doesn't cancel the stun, but it will be reduced since the knockback will be smaller. However, hitting someone who's crouching with more than one needle will have the needles after the first still hit while they're stunned and will break the crouching state and they will be stunned normally after that.

Same thing with Fox's d-air. You can't crouch cancel it because it doesn't have an upwards trajectory and you can't cause a landing off the hit since you never leave the ground, but you can still get reduced stun on the first hit from crouching. The 2nd hit will still connect during that reduced stun time from the 1st though when you're then stunned and no longer crouching, and then the following hits will all act normally.


For the needle->tilt, while the tilt can connect during the needle's stun and they can't actually be crouching when it hits to get the reduced knockback part, they can still ASDI 'cancel' the tilt if the distance they get sent upwards on the 1st frame isn't greater than the distance the ASDI moves them downwards.

If the tilt doesn't send them upwards enough on the first frame to overpower the ASDI down, but the knockback is still strong enough to put them in a tumble they'll just instantly fall over and hit the ground. They'll also be able to instantly tech it when that happens if they time it right.


Needle grab is guaranteed on Jiggs if it's done correctly. Bowser is stunned from a needle for like 10-11 frames even at 0%. If the last needle hits just before landing they don't have time to sidestep or roll before getting grabbed.
wow that was a great read, thanks bro
 

Magus420

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#67
You Automatic-SDI by holding a direction on either the control stick or c-stick on the very last frame of hitlag, and it happens on the 1st frame of knockback and is combined with the movement from the hit... automatically, lol. If both sticks are being held the direction on the c-stick is used.

Think of Crouch Cancel as 2 words. Crouch + Cancel. Crouch is... crouching, as in the animation your character goes into when you hold down, and being in that state reduces the power of the knockback. Cancel is ASDIing down to instantly land instead of going upwards, and the landing animation cancels the stun.

You can Crouch needles/Fox's shines/Falco's lasers/spikes/meteors to get reduced launch speed and stun time, but they can't send you upwards until they knock you down and go into a tumble, so you can't Cancel them by instantly going into a regular landing by ASDIing down.

An opponent that is shieldbroken/in stun/missed a rest/in up-B lag/etc can't Crouch to get reduced launch power and stun time, but for hits that have a trajectory above horizontal they can still Cancel using downward ASDI to cause an instant landing on the 1st frame of knockback and the landing animation cancels the stun.
 

jugfingers

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#68
I wonder if it's possible to drop two bombs next to jiggs, have the first one bombjump you over the jiggs into a smash missile, which then has the knockback canceled by the second bomb, into a grab to charge blast. .
if you did that in a match and recorded it. then posted it on smashboards.
I would post in that thread with some sort of sincere praise.
 

BrawlLover

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#69
You Automatic-SDI by holding a direction on either the control stick or c-stick on the very last frame of hitlag, and it happens on the 1st frame of knockback and is combined with the movement from the hit... automatically, lol. If both sticks are being held the direction on the c-stick is used.

Think of Crouch Cancel as 2 words. Crouch + Cancel. Crouch is... crouching, as in the animation your character goes into when you hold down, and being in that state reduces the power of the knockback. Cancel is ASDIing down to instantly land instead of going upwards, and the landing animation cancels the stun.

You can Crouch needles/Fox's shines/Falco's lasers/spikes/meteors to get reduced launch speed and stun time, but they can't send you upwards until they knock you down and go into a tumble, so you can't Cancel them by instantly going into a regular landing by ASDIing down.

An opponent that is shieldbroken/in stun/missed a rest/in up-B lag/etc can't Crouch to get reduced launch power and stun time, but for hits that have a trajectory above horizontal they can still Cancel using downward ASDI to cause an instant landing on the 1st frame of knockback and the landing animation cancels the stun.
you are the only one that has useful posts
 

soap

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#70
You Automatic-SDI by holding a direction on either the control stick or c-stick on the very last frame of hitlag, and it happens on the 1st frame of knockback and is combined with the movement from the hit... automatically, lol. If both sticks are being held the direction on the c-stick is used.

Think of Crouch Cancel as 2 words. Crouch + Cancel. Crouch is... crouching, as in the animation your character goes into when you hold down, and being in that state reduces the power of the knockback. Cancel is ASDIing down to instantly land instead of going upwards, and the landing animation cancels the stun.

You can Crouch needles/Fox's shines/Falco's lasers/spikes/meteors to get reduced launch speed and stun time, but they can't send you upwards until they knock you down and go into a tumble, so you can't Cancel them by instantly going into a regular landing by ASDIing down.

An opponent that is shieldbroken/in stun/missed a rest/in up-B lag/etc can't Crouch to get reduced launch power and stun time, but for hits that have a trajectory above horizontal they can still Cancel using downward ASDI to cause an instant landing on the 1st frame of knockback and the landing animation cancels the stun.
wow, im learning so much, thank u for going over this even though its prolly been gone through elsewhere.

finally, is there any point to ASDI'ing one way with the cstick and a different way with the joystick?
 

Magus420

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#75
wow, im learning so much, thank u for going over this even though its prolly been gone through elsewhere.

finally, is there any point to ASDI'ing one way with the cstick and a different way with the joystick?
By using both, you can trajectory DI one way using the control stick, while overriding the ASDI you'd normally get with that direction on the control with a different ASDI you want instead by using the c-stick for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei-iOIN32i4

You can trajectory DI a hit you can't avoid to get the lowest angle of knockback (and with it minimizing the amount of vertical knockback), while also ASDIing straight down into the stage so the ASDI will cause you to hit the floor and be able to tech until much higher damages than ASDIing down alone.

It works great for things like recovery move landlag and other very laggy moves to avoid getting KOed or escaping a move that would otherwise set you up for a combo. For example, a lot of the cute combos mentioned in this thread can be escaped with it :lick:
 

soap

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#77
By using both, you can trajectory DI one way using the control stick, while overriding the ASDI you'd normally get with that direction on the control with a different ASDI you want instead by using the c-stick for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei-iOIN32i4

You can trajectory DI a hit you can't avoid to get the lowest angle of knockback (and with it minimizing the amount of vertical knockback), while also ASDIing straight down into the stage so the ASDI will cause you to hit the floor and be able to tech until much higher damages than ASDIing down alone.
which direcition do u trajectory DI to get the lowest angle knockback, diagonal down and away?

seems risky against peach but if it would kill u anyway its worth a shot. btw u know how to do the thing where u cc peach dsmash and have it spit u the wrong way. i always just end up going for the full ride an still going back off the stage
 

Magus420

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#78
It depends on the attack you're being hit with. If it sends you diagonally up and away then yeah it'd be down and away, since that's perpendicular to the default knockback (strongest change on the angle) and is the perpendicular that brings the angle towards the ground.

For eating 2 hits of Peach's d-smash to get sent the other way you need to stop DIing down after the 1st hit but be DIing up when the 2nd hit hits you. If you're at high damage you probably want to DI the 2nd hit diagonally up and towards the direction of the edge you got hit at, so if you recover to the right edge hold down on the first then hold up and right for the second. If you keep holding down you'll just stay in it and will keep getting hit.
 

darkatma

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#79
Same thing with Fox's d-air. You can't crouch cancel it because it doesn't have an upwards trajectory and you can't cause a landing off the hit since you never leave the ground, but you can still get reduced stun on the first hit from crouching. The 2nd hit will still connect during that reduced stun time from the 1st though when you're then stunned and no longer crouching, and then the following hits will all act normally.
Does this mean if a character waits to crouch cancel on the last hit of fox's dair, he'll have less stun and would have a frame advantage on fox?
 
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