Rest and Shield-break punishing strategies

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

It's obvious that when the oppurtunity arises, these things must be punished as brutally as possible. More then often charging your most powerful smash isn't the best strategy.

So the purpose of this thread is to discuss and make up new strats for punishing a jiggs missing a rest and/or a shieldbreak. AND ways to escape these set-ups (with DI).

I'll start with an obvious example with fox:
Laser, dair, grab, uthrow, uair. OR a waveshine combo if you can shine-combo the char (shieldbreak)
Advantages: Does massive damage, can potentially kill a jiggs who missed a rest from 0% on smaller stages.
Ways to escape it: The person being punished can SDI out of the drill hits of the Dair. They can also SDI out of first hit of the uair to avoid the strong hit. (But at this point you've already tons of damage)
I also think there is a small window of frames between the dair and the grab where aren't in hitstun, so they might be able to buffer a spot-dodge or something. (not sure about this)

And also, there are a few gauranteed combo set-ups with chars that do more damage then any charged smash can. A Few examples I've seen are:
Sheik: needles->grab->dthrow->something
Falcon: dair->knee or Uair combo
Samus: Missile canceled smash missile->charge shot
Link: Bomb drop->Dair (where more then 1 hit of the dair has connected sometimes)

I'm not sure if (all of) these do more damage then a charged smash, idk really. Some of them might also be escapeable with good DI and proper teching (i think you can insta-tech falcon's dair...). They're just examples.

Don't be afraid to be creative and unorthodox. In fact, feel free to post methods that you aren't sure will work against good DI.... I made this thread to get crazy ideas, not to be reminded of obvious strats (but you can post those aswell if you want)

 

[Geist]

lol I taunt, THEN charge up a smash attack.

Yeah, against good DI, smash attacking seldom works. You know what would REALLY screw up somone's DI? If you stood in front of them purposefully so they set their DI up, and the you quickly ran to the other side, and pivot a smash attack on them.

 

[Darth Waffles]

Other than Fox's lasers, which don't knock the opponent out of the stun, to be honest, I don't see why you wouldn't go for whichever attack has the highest damage or knockback, DEPENDING on if the opponent is in "killing range" for that move. Higher-level players will be able to SDI when necessary, so that leaves a lot up to being able to adapt. Yes, the fox example would do much more damage than simply charging a smash, but at least you're guaranteed to land the hit.

If you're that confident against good opponents, though, then go for it. However, no other characters besides Fox have a projectile that wouldn't knock someone out of the stun, so you're forcing yourself into risking a combo being not worth it.

For that reason, it definitely depends on percents. If I'm falco, pillaring someone until their shield breaks at 0 percent, I'll start doing some shine-dair combos instead of f-smashing. However, characters without definite combos (on other characters such as on floaty ones), or characters facing someone at a high percent, would clearly want to charge up a 41% flare blade, or a Ganondorf uptilt/warlock punch/Bowser smash

 

[ridikulus]

kill them with powers

 

[Da Shuffla]

Against Jiggs I would laser>charged Usmash like you guys said. Or, at lower percentages, maybe laser> grab>Uthrow>Uair. In most cases, it is best just to go for the grab. I would chaingrab fast-fallers, or Marth if I was playing Falcon. Or.... DD> "Show me ya moves!">Falcon Punch.

 

[Vro]

IIRC, both capes have no knockback, so they can be repeatedly used on a resting Jiggs.

 

[Darth Waffles]

IIRC, both capes have no knockback, so they can be repeatedly used on a resting Jiggs.

That's what I was forgetting :\

 

[Pink Reaper]

Why would any C.Falcon player NOT Falcon Punch an open opponent?

 

[Grunt]

Hold B.
Press B a bunch.
Press B once.
guess who?

 

[ridikulus]

metaknight?

 

[DTKPch]

With Peach, you're supposed to attempt to sweet spot an upsmash. Stand right next to jigglypuff and toss a turnip up into the air. Roll to the other side and start charging usmash. The turnip should hit puff right into the sweetspot.

 

[tubes]

hold B.
Press B A Bunch.
Press B Once.
Guess Who?

Jiggly Puff!

 

[Vulcan55]

Hold B.
Press B a bunch.
Press B once.
guess who?

Marth
Fox
Falcon

 

[jugfingers]

another good one with fox is lasers drill, grab, downthrow techchase to upsmash or techchase grab upthrow upair, techchasing jiggs is pretty easy with fox so a dthrow usually leads into something.


or after the first grab downthrow, jab upsmash if they miss the tech.


really good one with cfalcon at 0% is dair grab, dthrow, uair, knee

 

[Aesir]

lol as marth I sometimes charge neutral B in hopes they forget jigglys shield kills her when it breaks.

 

[Stos]

for Link.
low percent, Charged Dsmash. Mid percent, Charged Double Slash. High Percent, Dair.

 

[KirbyKaze]

you're so silly

it's all about tossing boomerang and hitting with both hits of f-smash at low-medium percent

if that even works :D training mode is rather misleading although the rang has like no knockback when it returns so i think it could work

 

[Stos]

you're so silly

it's all about tossing boomerang and hitting with both hits of f-smash at low-medium percent

if that even works :D training mode is rather misleading although the rang has like no knockback when it returns so i think it could work

jigss can CC to rest and sots is gonna make a sad face when i see that **** mindgame like this =(

oooohh wow
i just booked the hidden messege XD

 

[KirbyKaze]

cc rest isn't cool

could you perhaps space it to avoid shenanigans or is shenanigans perfect

 

[Stos]

cc rest isn't cool

could you perhaps space it to avoid shenanigans or is shenanigans perfect

mhm but remember, Links smashes is gay laggy. soo its a =( face

but yeah sometimes i dont trust the jigs player so i just grab =D

 

[KirbyKaze]

jiggs gives a lot of characters =(s

she like cornered the market on =(s

what a ***** LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj9ALiZTLmQ

i think if you pull this off on a puff who whiffs rest you should win the ****ing game

 

[G1G4 G0N0RRH34]

that is ridiculous

 

[Stos]

you can actually Spin about three times. i remember watching a video about this.
i just cant find the link =(

 

[KirbyKaze]

wtf how do you get three

do you like spinhog on the second and ledgehop scrah on the third or something?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Also notable is that needles --> grab doesn't seem to work if Puff holds "down" and "R" and then mashes randomly on the C-stick to produce some sort of defensive buffer.

Which is rather gay.

Or maybe just Hungrybox is like that.

I remember reading on the Sheik boards somewhere that needle --> grab wasn't a guaranteed combo and was escapable, which may or may not be something to consider when attempting to gay Jigglypuff.

If someone with more knowledge of needles and their magical powers could post (MAGUS420 I NEED YOU) then that would be awesome but otherwise yeah. And, really, the best thing after a missed rest is to just d-throw and do whatever. Hitting optimal needles (3-4) --> d-smash is like 21-23% after stale moves are factored and can be blown up by DI and other factors. Since needles are so spammed against puff it's unlikely to be that fresh anyways but for the sake of argument that's okay. Simple D-throw Nair or whatever does 22% if they're both fresh, which they very well could be, seeing how Puff is stupidly hard to grab without running massive, massive risks and Nair is underused as a whole.

On Yoshi or FoD if she's on a low platform tip the U-smash (full charge) kills at like 56% or something on FoD (assumes DI and 56% after the hit, so on hit 33-34%ish if you full charge; this was also tested on the lowest possible platform height so it may be a percent lower if the platform is really high up).

At about 57% before hit (assumes full power U-smash so after hit about 74-75%) with her DIing off to the side she dies, although I only tested DI to the side, not DI + down and variations so she might live another 2-4% longer (again, tested from the lowest platform).

On Yoshi's it would obviously be lower.

Since Puff often tries to Rest Sheik off platforms, knowing how to get those dumb U-smashes when she misses is really cool.

A little over like 18% (prior to hit) Uair knocks her over if you do it on her at full power (30%ish after the hit). If they don't ground tech the Uair it links to D-smash or something else, something potentially more nasty depending on where you hit them (ie. Nair/Bair/another Uair/U-smash possibly if they were hit on a platform). Needs more testing.

 

[Kyu Puff]

For ICs

(lame)

Grab, wobble.

(cool/risky)

Face opponent backwards, desynch and charge u-smash with Nana. Jump and up+B after she releases.

(best one)

Desynch, charge d-smash, grab opponent right after the d-smash connects. Headbutt -> blizzard, follow with combo (character dependent). ~60% into a kill move vs. any character without wobbling.

 

[G1G4 G0N0RRH34]

Scrah x3 is probably something like
they miss rest or shield break
take out a bomb, smash throw it up, take out another bomb, throw boomerang, smash throw bomb up,
scrah, bomb hits you, boomerang comes back, scrah, bomb hits both of you, scrah again

i dunno

 

[Keblerelf]

For luigi-

Falling weak n-air to SH n-air and then DJ n-air? Would this work? (of course puff has to be at like, 0%)

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

KirbyKaze-That's some really good info. I thought that needles->grab was a gauranteed combo if you timed it perfectly, but I don't even play sheik so I'm probably wrong. You could easily test this if sheik had a 7 frame ground move other then grab (then you could do needles->that attack and see if it registered as combo) but she doesn't >.<

Kya Puff-I'm gay, so I'd go for the first option
Seriously though, Ic's probably have endless possibilites for this O.o

 

[The Star King]

You can cape her with Mario/Doc repeatedly without waking her up, like Fox's lasers.

 

[jugfingers]

yea for murio

at 0% cape repeatedly, fair->grab->dthrow->dair->uair then maybe a few more uairs if you can follow di.

 

[Vyse]

 

[KirbyKaze]

KirbyKaze-That's some really good info. I thought that needles->grab was a gauranteed combo if you timed it perfectly, but I don't even play sheik so I'm probably wrong. You could easily test this if sheik had a 7 frame ground move other then grab (then you could do needles->that attack and see if it registered as combo) but she doesn't >.<

Kya Puff-I'm gay, so I'd go for the first option
Seriously though, Ic's probably have endless possibilites for this O.o

I'm trying to figure out if Rest alters Puff's ability to cc and what she can cc.

It seems like it works similarly to Sheik's Up+B landing lag in that DI down is messed up.

She shouldn't be knocked over by Uair so low, but she is if she whiffs Rest it seems. Perhaps my testing methods are flawed.

Either way it's mostly irrelevant, sadly. D-throw --> Aerial is usually going to be the best you get on Puff. If someone can prove that needle --> grab is perfect and show proof then sure add the extra 6-9%. In my experience it doesn't but my needle skills are fairly poor beyond tricks.

I think you could make it very hard for them to escape by full jumping ffing a full set, but I'm not sure if it's guaranteed or not.

 

[Foxy]

this is kind of a pointless discussion.

obviously, if jiggs is at anything above probably 40%, a charged smash will kill. you don't need any better than that. just do whatever KO's.

in the rare case that you get a shield break or missed rest at a very low %, lasers with fox, cape with mario/doctor mario, neutral b with roy/marth/ganon/falcon, etc

if you've got real balls, JUDGMENT HAMMER WITH G&W

i would love to see that.

 

[Kyu Puff]

this is kind of a pointless discussion.

obviously, if jiggs is at anything above probably 40%, a charged smash will kill. you don't need any better than that. just do whatever KO's.

in the rare case that you get a shield break or missed rest at a very low %, lasers with fox, cape with mario/doctor mario, neutral b with roy/marth/ganon/falcon, etc

if you've got real balls, JUDGMENT HAMMER WITH G&W

i would love to see that.

except for that's boring...

 

[Vyse]

IC's freeze glitch.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I'm trying to figure out if Rest alters Puff's ability to cc and what she can cc.

It seems like it works similarly to Sheik's Up+B landing lag in that DI down is messed up.

She shouldn't be knocked over by Uair so low, but she is if she whiffs Rest it seems. Perhaps my testing methods are flawed.

Either way it's mostly irrelevant, sadly. D-throw --> Aerial is usually going to be the best you get on Puff. If someone can prove that needle --> grab is perfect and show proof then sure add the extra 6-9%. In my experience it doesn't but my needle skills are fairly poor beyond tricks.

I think you could make it very hard for them to escape by full jumping ffing a full set, but I'm not sure if it's guaranteed or not.

The reason CC:ing doesn't work normally in sheik's up-b lag or rest lag (or any type of lag) is because your not actually CC:ing, you're just ASDI'ing down. ASDI down has the same effect on most attacks as CC:ing does, as long as your char doesn't fall over from them.

The reason it does is because ASDI down will make you touch the ground on the same frame that you would've been sent flying. And on many attacks touching the ground will CANCEL all the hitstun. There are exceptions to this rule (like meteors and spikes always have the same amount of ground stun). But for things like sex kicks, tilts (usually), smashes (might be exceptions) it almost always works (unless the attack makes you fall over, off course)
There are probably details here I'm missing, but I've tested this alot and it seems to be the general rule.

But ASDI down doesn't ACTUALLY reduce hitstun in the way that normal CC:ing would (which is why the stun of meteors and spikes remain the same)

I'm guessing that because needles don't send you in the air, it has ground stun in the same way that meteors and spikes do. So ASDI down won't cancel the hitstun in any way (most likely)

Buut if needles->grab is never a real combo they can always buffer spot dodge out of it, regardless of DI. It is very likely that that's the case, I've shined out of it as fox (more then once). Also, the timing for a needles->dsmash combo in training mode is pretty tight, and dsmash is faster then a grab... the more I think about it, I realize that needles->grab most likely it isn't a real combo

So yhea, dthrow->arial should be the best option (if they're not killing range).

yea for murio

at 0% cape repeatedly, fair->grab->dthrow->dair->uair then maybe a few more uairs if you can follow di.

That's a good idea, most marios just charge a smash but since Fair has so much stun you'll be able to get a garaunteed grab off of it. If you get that entire combo you're garaunteed to do more damage then cape->fsmash

 

[GodheadsLamentX]

As fox - If they're at low dmg (not in killrange %):

Some lasers, shffl Dair grab Uthrow (fast so they don't have a chance to DI) to Uair(s)

If you don't think you can reach them out of just the Uthrow and you're standing under a platform, waveland it and then DJ to Uair.

If you are on a platform, Then just Dthrow them, wait for them to tech and Usmash.

Solid amount of dmg.

 

[Oracle]

if you've got real balls, JUDGMENT HAMMER WITH G&W

i would love to see that.

Best is a 1, followed by a 9.

 

[HiIH]

For the Link Fsmash>returning Boomerang> Second Fsmash to work, I think you have to actually space the boomerang coming back so that when Jiggs gets hit with the rang she's still in the air...

which is kind of ******** hard to do.

So... run past, throw rang up, run back, charge Fsmash, space Rang coming back, second slash.

<.<; Yeah....