Science Revolution!
Smash Lab Shared Account
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2011
- Messages
- 40
I. Introduction
II. Simultaneous C-Stick and Analog Stick (Dual Sticking)
III. Grab Breaking
IV. Momentum Cancelling
V. SDI
VI. In Shield SDI and Option-Selects
VII. Platform Cancelling
VIII. Conclusion
Credit goes to:
1. Yikarur for first opening up research and observing the simultaneous Analogue/C Stick action
2. KPrime for releasing the videos that ultimately inspired future research into the topic
3. Stealth Raptor for the original write up on the topic
4. Bionic for Videos
5. rPSI for amazing control stick and c-stick graphics
6. Mr. Doom for setting an example SDI that I'd try to emulate
7. Toomai for knowing everything
8. Dnyce for helping test
9. Coyn3Masta for helping Bio with the video
10. MK26 for additional troubleshooting
11. Magus for correcting technical information
12. The rest of the Smash Lab for being Awesome
13. InnocentRoad for the SDI Control Stick Picture
14. DeLux with the final write up
There’s a lot of misinformation floating around on how to manipulate SDI and DI. Words like HCDI, QCDI, Tap DI fly around and there’s been huge debate over which is the best method on how to DI. The goal of the thread is to debunk some of the myths and bring to the light the facts on understanding and executing ideal SDI and DI. For now, let’s suspend our beliefs in anything we know about proper SDI and build on new discoveries based on basic inputs.
While trying to find the "ideal SDI and DI", we stumbled upon an input mechanic that revolves around how a player can abuse the C-Stick and analog stick to create multiple inputs at once.
While trying to find the "ideal SDI and DI", we stumbled upon an input mechanic that revolves around how a player can abuse the C-Stick and analog stick to create multiple inputs at once.
II. Simultaneous C-Stick and Analog Stick (Dual Sticking)
Everything you are about to read in this thread revolves around the C-Stick and the mechanics of how it relates to the analog/control stick. Assuming the C-Stick is set to smash, a C-Stick input will read as a “analog direction + attack”.
However, things begin to operate differently once you start incorporating simultaneous analog and C-Stick inputs. In order to accurately explain what occurs, we need to examine the directional inputs in terms of vectors. There are four cardinal directions for Brawl (Up, Down, Left, and Right). Any other direction in the 360 degree spectrum is just a combination of two vectors.
That being stated, it’s been documented that an interesting phenomenon occurs when both the analog stick and the C-Sticks inputted at full throw are combined: If the analog stick is held at full throw, inputting a C-Stick order will cause the game to read the C-Stick direction followed by the analog stick direction on back to back frames.
For example, if one were holding full right on the control stick, and then tapped Up on the C-Stick, the game would read: Directional input Up + attack > Directional input right on back to back frames. Then end result over the two frame span would be directional vectors of Up + Right.
At the same time, the cardinal directions act as thresholds where if they are crossed in the angle created by the two separate stick input directions, the game reads the second directional input, or snap back input, as a completely new input. This is opposed to simply holding an input in the same direction, which is what the game reads when a cardinal direction threshold is not met. Frame perfect tapping the analog stick and the C-Stick in the same direction is, for the most part, recognized as holding one single direction rather than repeated tapping in a direction.
Now that we have the mechanics sorted out, let’s look into a few methods of practical application:
However, things begin to operate differently once you start incorporating simultaneous analog and C-Stick inputs. In order to accurately explain what occurs, we need to examine the directional inputs in terms of vectors. There are four cardinal directions for Brawl (Up, Down, Left, and Right). Any other direction in the 360 degree spectrum is just a combination of two vectors.
That being stated, it’s been documented that an interesting phenomenon occurs when both the analog stick and the C-Sticks inputted at full throw are combined: If the analog stick is held at full throw, inputting a C-Stick order will cause the game to read the C-Stick direction followed by the analog stick direction on back to back frames.
For example, if one were holding full right on the control stick, and then tapped Up on the C-Stick, the game would read: Directional input Up + attack > Directional input right on back to back frames. Then end result over the two frame span would be directional vectors of Up + Right.
At the same time, the cardinal directions act as thresholds where if they are crossed in the angle created by the two separate stick input directions, the game reads the second directional input, or snap back input, as a completely new input. This is opposed to simply holding an input in the same direction, which is what the game reads when a cardinal direction threshold is not met. Frame perfect tapping the analog stick and the C-Stick in the same direction is, for the most part, recognized as holding one single direction rather than repeated tapping in a direction.
Now that we have the mechanics sorted out, let’s look into a few methods of practical application:
III. Grab Breaking
KPrime released a method of grab breaking a few months ago that was considered fairly revolutionary. In the method, a player needed to hold the control stick in a direction with his index finger while using his thumb to rock the dpad for inputs. At the same time, he would also have to input the C-Stick in a different direction.
Most people thought that the grab break method was revolutionary because it was fast using the dpad. But the much of the speed behind this specific grab break method resulted from manipulated the Dual Stick inputs to create frame perfect grab break inputs. On every frame of struggle a user can input a direction and another miscellaneous order such as attack/jump/special/shield in order to grab break. By using the C-Stick in combination with the analog stick, every tap of the C-Stick would then count as two inputs of direction if the user crossed at least one cardinal direction threshold plus the attack input from the C-Stick. It allowed for more in-game inputs to be counted towards grab breaking with less human inputs through the controller.
Most people thought that the grab break method was revolutionary because it was fast using the dpad. But the much of the speed behind this specific grab break method resulted from manipulated the Dual Stick inputs to create frame perfect grab break inputs. On every frame of struggle a user can input a direction and another miscellaneous order such as attack/jump/special/shield in order to grab break. By using the C-Stick in combination with the analog stick, every tap of the C-Stick would then count as two inputs of direction if the user crossed at least one cardinal direction threshold plus the attack input from the C-Stick. It allowed for more in-game inputs to be counted towards grab breaking with less human inputs through the controller.
IV. Momentum Cancelling
For vertical momentum cancelling, save for a few exceptions, the best method is to use your character's fastest aerial and immediately follow it with a fastfall. By manipulating dual stick inputs, we are now able to frame perfect input an aerial followed by a fastfall, instead of hoping that repeatedly tapping down while tapping the C-Stick in the aerial direction lands on the ideal frame. In order to do this, a player must do the following:
Step 1: DI whichever horizontal direction is needed to best change the angle of orientation of the attack towards a corner of the blastzone.
Step 2: After the DI stage, hold the analog stick down
Step 3: Tap the C-Stick in the cardinal direction of the aerial you desire
If done properly, your character will frame perfect execute a fastfall immediately after an aerial is inputted. If you want to test if you are doing this properly, full hop your character and follow the instruction AFTER your character reaches the peak of their jump. If they fastfall instantly during the aerial, you are doing it correctly.
It should be kept in mind that this is not meant to be used in combination with Dair. Assuming the Dair of a specific character does not have momentum changing properties as seen in some characters (ie. Toon Link/IC/ZSS), Dair with C-Stick while the control stick is not held down for any value is the fastest method to achieve a fastfall because it fastfalls on the exact frame Dair is inputted. The method listed here inputs the aerial followed by a fastfall input on the frame immediately after.
Step 1: DI whichever horizontal direction is needed to best change the angle of orientation of the attack towards a corner of the blastzone.
Step 2: After the DI stage, hold the analog stick down
Step 3: Tap the C-Stick in the cardinal direction of the aerial you desire
If done properly, your character will frame perfect execute a fastfall immediately after an aerial is inputted. If you want to test if you are doing this properly, full hop your character and follow the instruction AFTER your character reaches the peak of their jump. If they fastfall instantly during the aerial, you are doing it correctly.
It should be kept in mind that this is not meant to be used in combination with Dair. Assuming the Dair of a specific character does not have momentum changing properties as seen in some characters (ie. Toon Link/IC/ZSS), Dair with C-Stick while the control stick is not held down for any value is the fastest method to achieve a fastfall because it fastfalls on the exact frame Dair is inputted. The method listed here inputs the aerial followed by a fastfall input on the frame immediately after.
V. SDI
In terms ideal SDI, it's important to remember that hitlag occurs in relatively small windows of time. That being the case, it's unrealistic to expect for more than a few inputs to register, even at best. With that in mind, the ideal SDI method would require the least amount of human inputs that creates in contrast the most amount of game inputs.
Previous methods of "ideal SDI" required the player to input quarter circles and half circles with one hand while the other hand tapped the C-Stick in another direction. If one uses the dual stick technique, they can achieve the same SDI results with less human inputs. In order to SDI ideally using this method, a player must hold the analog stick full throw in one direction while tapping the C-Stick in another direction. The SDI direction will be the direction that bisects the angle created by the vectors, and it will read as nearly two SDI inputs in that direction over two frames. In an ideal setting, SDIing in the cardinal directions is generally more powerful than SDIing in the diagonal directions by a small margin because of the mechanics operating behind SDI. In order to SDI using the dual stick method, the inputs of the C-Stick and analog stick need to be separated by at least one cardinal direction line.
The rules of SDI registry in terms of cardinal directions is displayed in the following picture provided by InnocentRoad:
When determining SDI, it is important to keep in mind the vectors:
To do...
|
Do this...
|
or this...
Dual Stick SDI Up:|Hold
> Tap
Repeatedly|Hold
> Tap
Repeatedly
Dual Stick SDI Right:|Hold
> Tap
Repeatedly|Hold
> Tap
Repeatedly
Dual Stick SDI Left:|Hold
> Tap
Repeatedly|Hold
> Tap
Repeatedly
Dual Stick SDI Down:|Hold
> Tap
Repeatedly|Hold
> Tap
Repeatedly
To do...
|
Do this...
|
or this...
Dual Stick SDI Up + Right|Hold
> Tap
Repeatedly|Hold
> Tap
Repeatedly
Dual Stick SDI Down + Right|Hold
> Tap
Repeatedly|Hold
> Tap
Repeatedly
Dual Stick SDI Down + Left|Hold
> Tap
Repeatedly|Hold
> Tap
Repeatedly
Dual Stick SDI Up + Left|Hold
> Tap
Repeatedly|Hold
> Tap
Repeatedly
[collapse="In-depth Notes:"]-It is also possible to manipulate the SDI into 1/16th directions (ie.
>
), but they require far more specific inputs in order to satisfy the change in cardinal direction threshold.
-You can't use this method if the C-Stick is set to "Attack". The C-Stick actually inputs slightly less distance than the Analog stick tilted to full throw. Based on sources, the C-Stick input direction approximately .72 the degree of a fully tilted analog stick input.
-It should also be noted that if total distance/number of inputs is what is all that matters and specific direction doesn't need to be taken to account, tapping the split directions with both sticks will lead to 3 SDI inputs for every set of human taps. However, the direction will be skewed towards the analog stick tap in comparison to the C-Stick tap because of the two analog stick SDI inputs created through the one C-Stick input.
- In theory, the ideal method would be to hold the analog stick 10-45 degrees angled from a cardinal direction while tapping the C-Stick in the direction that is 10-45 degrees away from the same complimentary angle in the opposite direction. From a controller design standpoint, most players will be able to repeatedly tap at a 45 degree angle rather than 10 degrees from the cardinal directions due to controller rim slots, which in theory leads to less total SDI distance traveled than 10 degree C-Stick tapping.
- In the cases of the diagonals, the ideal method is creating the 90 degrees. Anything less and the cardinal direction crossover threshold is not met and the dual stick mechanics fails to register in SDI.
[/collapse]Previous methods of "ideal SDI" required the player to input quarter circles and half circles with one hand while the other hand tapped the C-Stick in another direction. If one uses the dual stick technique, they can achieve the same SDI results with less human inputs. In order to SDI ideally using this method, a player must hold the analog stick full throw in one direction while tapping the C-Stick in another direction. The SDI direction will be the direction that bisects the angle created by the vectors, and it will read as nearly two SDI inputs in that direction over two frames. In an ideal setting, SDIing in the cardinal directions is generally more powerful than SDIing in the diagonal directions by a small margin because of the mechanics operating behind SDI. In order to SDI using the dual stick method, the inputs of the C-Stick and analog stick need to be separated by at least one cardinal direction line.
The rules of SDI registry in terms of cardinal directions is displayed in the following picture provided by InnocentRoad:
When determining SDI, it is important to keep in mind the vectors:
Dual Stick SDI Up:|Hold
Dual Stick SDI Right:|Hold
Dual Stick SDI Left:|Hold
Dual Stick SDI Down:|Hold
Dual Stick SDI Up + Right|Hold
Dual Stick SDI Down + Right|Hold
Dual Stick SDI Down + Left|Hold
Dual Stick SDI Up + Left|Hold
[collapse="In-depth Notes:"]-It is also possible to manipulate the SDI into 1/16th directions (ie.
-You can't use this method if the C-Stick is set to "Attack". The C-Stick actually inputs slightly less distance than the Analog stick tilted to full throw. Based on sources, the C-Stick input direction approximately .72 the degree of a fully tilted analog stick input.
-It should also be noted that if total distance/number of inputs is what is all that matters and specific direction doesn't need to be taken to account, tapping the split directions with both sticks will lead to 3 SDI inputs for every set of human taps. However, the direction will be skewed towards the analog stick tap in comparison to the C-Stick tap because of the two analog stick SDI inputs created through the one C-Stick input.
- In theory, the ideal method would be to hold the analog stick 10-45 degrees angled from a cardinal direction while tapping the C-Stick in the direction that is 10-45 degrees away from the same complimentary angle in the opposite direction. From a controller design standpoint, most players will be able to repeatedly tap at a 45 degree angle rather than 10 degrees from the cardinal directions due to controller rim slots, which in theory leads to less total SDI distance traveled than 10 degree C-Stick tapping.
- In the cases of the diagonals, the ideal method is creating the 90 degrees. Anything less and the cardinal direction crossover threshold is not met and the dual stick mechanics fails to register in SDI.
VI. In Shield SDI and Option-Selects
It should be noted that when in shield hitlag, a player can SDI horizontally while remaining in shield.
ISSDI and Dual Sticking can be manipulated to create some truly unique scenarios where the same input on the player's part might yield different condition based outcomes (option-select) out of shield:
If you hold the analog stick towards your opponent and C-Stick upwards, you perform a Forward Roll or Buffer Grab Option Select. If inputted outside of the presence of shield hitlag, you will input a forward roll. In the presence of shield hitlag, you will input two analog stick SDI input towards your opponent for a grab if you input both sticks during shield hitlag. However, if you were holding forward prior to going into shield and shield hitlag and only the C-Stick is inputted during shield hitlag, it will perform only one SDI input while buffering a grab. The option select will then alternatively be a standing grab if inputted outside of the context of shield hitlag.
If you hold the analog stick towards your opponent and then input away from your opponent, you perform a Back Roll or Buffered Grab Option Select. If inputted outside of the presence of shield hitlag, you will backwards roll. If inputted during shield hitlag, you will first input a C-Stick measure of SDI away from your opponent. The frame immediately after, you will input an analog stick length of SDI towards your opponent. Since a full analog stick SDI input is longer than a C-Stick input, you will have net movement towards your opponent while in shield hitlag. The net gain is large enough to allow In Shield SDIing over the ledge, which is useful in anti-planking situations. This can be used as a safety option if one is unsure if they are going to be hit on shield because rolling away from your opponent is generally safer than rolling into your opponent.
Manipulating the analog stick towards your opponent while in shield hitlag and tapping down on the C-Stick creates the effect of ISSDI inputs towards the opponent and immediately buffering spot dodge. If done in shield hitlag for a multi hit move, it's possible to actually use the early (and usually weaker) hitboxes your opponent does on shield while side stepping the last (and usually strongest knockback) hit box, increasing spacing and frame advantage.
ISSDI and Dual Sticking can be manipulated to create some truly unique scenarios where the same input on the player's part might yield different condition based outcomes (option-select) out of shield:
If you hold the analog stick towards your opponent and C-Stick upwards, you perform a Forward Roll or Buffer Grab Option Select. If inputted outside of the presence of shield hitlag, you will input a forward roll. In the presence of shield hitlag, you will input two analog stick SDI input towards your opponent for a grab if you input both sticks during shield hitlag. However, if you were holding forward prior to going into shield and shield hitlag and only the C-Stick is inputted during shield hitlag, it will perform only one SDI input while buffering a grab. The option select will then alternatively be a standing grab if inputted outside of the context of shield hitlag.
If you hold the analog stick towards your opponent and then input away from your opponent, you perform a Back Roll or Buffered Grab Option Select. If inputted outside of the presence of shield hitlag, you will backwards roll. If inputted during shield hitlag, you will first input a C-Stick measure of SDI away from your opponent. The frame immediately after, you will input an analog stick length of SDI towards your opponent. Since a full analog stick SDI input is longer than a C-Stick input, you will have net movement towards your opponent while in shield hitlag. The net gain is large enough to allow In Shield SDIing over the ledge, which is useful in anti-planking situations. This can be used as a safety option if one is unsure if they are going to be hit on shield because rolling away from your opponent is generally safer than rolling into your opponent.
Manipulating the analog stick towards your opponent while in shield hitlag and tapping down on the C-Stick creates the effect of ISSDI inputs towards the opponent and immediately buffering spot dodge. If done in shield hitlag for a multi hit move, it's possible to actually use the early (and usually weaker) hitboxes your opponent does on shield while side stepping the last (and usually strongest knockback) hit box, increasing spacing and frame advantage.
VII. Platform Cancelling
It has previously been documented that a player can platform cancel using C-Stick down, down + specials, down + shield, or simply tapping down on the analog stick and returning the stick to neutral at the appropriate time. It is also possible to platform cancel by holding down on the analog stick and tapping the C-Stick in any direction. If you hold down and a horizontal direction on the analog stick, it is possible to buffer a dash straight out of platform cancel if combined with a C-Stick input.
By doing this, it creates an interesting option select. For example, certain characters do not have a safe Dair for platform cancelling (see IC's/TL/etc). Improper execution of a platform cancel offstage on a level such as Smashville would almost mean certain death. By using the alternate C-Stick method, you can safeguard your platform cancel with an alternate aerial in the event you fail to execute the technique. This adds another available option other than the accidental Dairs, Down Specials, Air Dodges, or Empty hops that might normally occur with present techniques.
By doing this, it creates an interesting option select. For example, certain characters do not have a safe Dair for platform cancelling (see IC's/TL/etc). Improper execution of a platform cancel offstage on a level such as Smashville would almost mean certain death. By using the alternate C-Stick method, you can safeguard your platform cancel with an alternate aerial in the event you fail to execute the technique. This adds another available option other than the accidental Dairs, Down Specials, Air Dodges, or Empty hops that might normally occur with present techniques.
VIII. Conclusion
Our hopes from the Smash Lab is that this guide will achieve two goals. First, we hope it will advance the overall metagame of the community and will make what was once thought of as technically improbable commonplace throughout the community. Second, we hope that this inspires future works into the topic. Already there has been expansion upon the basic research in this thread in using this technique and applied towards character specific ATs. We invite the community to further our research and exploration into the topic.
Credit goes to:
1. Yikarur for first opening up research and observing the simultaneous Analogue/C Stick action
2. KPrime for releasing the videos that ultimately inspired future research into the topic
3. Stealth Raptor for the original write up on the topic
4. Bionic for Videos
5. rPSI for amazing control stick and c-stick graphics
6. Mr. Doom for setting an example SDI that I'd try to emulate
7. Toomai for knowing everything
8. Dnyce for helping test
9. Coyn3Masta for helping Bio with the video
10. MK26 for additional troubleshooting
11. Magus for correcting technical information
12. The rest of the Smash Lab for being Awesome
13. InnocentRoad for the SDI Control Stick Picture
14. DeLux with the final write up
