Redesinging Ganondorf (but keeping him the same)

[Jotari]

Other redesigns

https://smashboards.com/threads/redesinging-ganondorf-but-keeping-him-the-same.513191/
https://smashboards.com/threads/new-melee-moves-for-samus.515562/
https://smashboards.com/threads/redesigning-link-but-keeping-him-the-same.518191/
https://smashboards.com/threads/redeisgning-kirby-but-keeping-him-the-same.521634/
https://smashboards.com/threads/redesigning-zelda-but-keeping-her-the-same.521781/
https://smashboards.com/threads/redesigning-ike-but-keeping-him-the-same.522334/

So the most recent thread below this one is a thread about redesigning Ganondorf. But the reason that's the most recent one is because, silly me, I posted on it not realizing it's over two years old. But it did get me thinking about what I want and don't want to see for Ganondorf in Super Smash Bros. I think the desire to completely redesign Ganondorf from the ground up has died down since the release of Ultimate because they gave him a sword for his smash attacks. I was always in the camp that he should keep his current moveset, but should still get a few references here and there as nods to his games. So here are my ideas for such alterations to his existing attacks that would pull more from the Zelda series and throw off more of the Falcon clone label that still sticks to him if only a little.

First off this is his Jab.

It's a good fine move for him. Comes out quick enough and forces enemies away from him. I'm not sure if it's just a coincidence or not, but he also uses his palm like he does when casting magic in Ocarina of Time. Let's make that not a coincidence by adding an extra few frames onto the attack.

A ball of lightning appears briefly after the hit boxes go out. The palm thrust is still the main part of the attack, with the ball only dealing light damage. It serves more to make the attack safer on use by extending it's range and duration. I also think it would be really nice if his Jab could reflect projectiles. It's something he does in several appearances and it would give him some protection against enemies who can gimp him by spamming projectiles.

Next up his Forward and down tilts. These moves are fine. It's obviously inspired by the kick he does in the Space World Demo and Twilight Princess. It is a bit repetitive that he uses the same sort of kick for both attacks, but both of them are decent attacks so I don't see any pressing need to change them.

His Up tilt is a pretty odd attack that a lot of people complain about, but personally I love it. It's one of those really satisfying attacks to use, and unlike Warlock Punch it actually has use in edge guarding. I would like a way to cancel it for accidental uses though.

Dash attack fine. Don't find myself using it in Smash U as much as previous games (probably because his Air game has improved), but it works okay as an attack.

Next attack I want to change is actually his new forward smash.

I find it's not quite as useful as his Up Smash and it hits more or less the same area. And while everyone celebrating over him finally having a sword, it's a pretty generic swing. And I actually quite liked his old side smash, especially how you could angle it. So given the choice I would bring back his old side smash.

However, I'm adding another phase to the attack. Like with Link, if you attack again during the forward smash, Ganondorf will perform another attack. In this case, a turning swing with his sword. Unlike Link's side Smash however, the first hit does not deal set knockback into the second hit, both hits are moves with high knockback and kill potential. The sword swing comes out horizontally so it's range is good for hitting in front of Ganondorf, but does not cover much ground vertically. All in all the move looks like Ganondorf's combo from Twilight Princess.

Next is his down Smash.

I find that this attack looks a bit weak, especially the first knock with the hilt, it just doesn't feel like a solid move. And I don't know if it's just because of that or because it's also not a good move, but I just don't find myself using it often. I prefer going for a down tilt in such scenarios. So I want to give him a new down smash. For this attack Ganondorf charges up energy in his hands and then plants it onto the ground, damaging enemies on either side of him. Has a bit more start up lag than his current down smash, but he doesn't have to worry about enemies rolling behind him when using it.

Now we move onto his Aerials. Despite making this thread, I am pretty much fine with all of Ganondorf’s moves from an aesthetic point of view, with the exception of this one, his Neutral Aerial. The two quick kicks are the only move which I feel outright doesn’t fit Ganondorf at all. But they are a functional move and a good approach option for Ganondorf. So their replacement will cover more or less the same area as before. Instead of kicking however, Ganondorf will send out two streams of Blazing Bats from A Link to the Past. The distance travelled is approximately the same as his current Neutral Air and the hitboxes are largely the same too. The only real differences is that the outer most part of the attack has a slight disjointed hitbox and that it’s now considered a fire hit box and thus can instantly ignite explosive boxes.

After much deliberation I've changed my mind about his neutral Aerial. Yes, it's a core part of his moveset right now, but that's only because of how good the frame data is. The move is unfitting for him and trying to modify it into a stream of fire is a bit clunky. There's also a move from his games that is perfect for his Neutral Aerial.

That's right, the Dead Man's Volley as a Neutral Aerial. But if we're to replace his old Neutral Aerial the new attack needs to be good. It actually isn't all that different. It's still a two hit attack, with him swiping his cape across his body and then outwards again for the second hit. It also comes out quick. So it's a quick, long lasting two hit combo with the first hit dealing set knockback into the second. So what's different about it compared to his old nAir? Well the main difference is the range. He's not using his feet so he doesn't strike quite as far horizontally. However, to compensate it has a slight wind hit box on the second hit. This is less to gimp enemies, as it's not that powerful, and more just to make it safer if you accidentally whiff the attack. Using the Blazing Bats in the above picture, the hitbox would be just over two bats wide while the wind hitbox would be the third bat. However, its biggest change is that it reflect projectiles. Ganondorf will reflect projectiles with either the hit box from the attack or with his own hurtbox throughout the attack. It will still take somewhat precise aiming to hit enemy projectiles, but merely having the option means opponents need to be a lot more wary about throwing projectiles out at Ganondorf.Finally, the attack would have inordinately low landing lag, to the point that he can repeatedly shot hop into it.

Since I've remove the Blazing Bats from his neutral aerial, it's probably best to leave them off the moveset entirely. But I put a lot of work into those gifs (despite what it looks XD ) so I'm keeping them.

His side aerial is fine, it’s been with him since Melee and it’s a reference to his games. His up aerial however, I am giving a similar treatment to his neutral air. Less because I don’t like it visually and more because I don’t want him summoning flaming bats for just one attack. That would look a bit random. For this move Ganondorf uses his arm instead of his legs. So it is quite visually different to his over the head tumble. Before Ganondorf’s toes had a weaker hit box than his legs, here something similar will happen, with Ganondorf’s arm having a stronger hit box than the bats themselves that he’s summoning. Like his new neutral aerial, this attack too is considered a fire attack.

Now that I think about it, just to squeeze the bats into one more move, they could also be featured in his up tilt as an effect. He's already dealing with fire and an explosion in that attack anyway.

Ganondorf’s back air is quick and effective, but I still want to change it because it’s an relic of Cpt Falcon and I think there’s a better character Ganondorf can steal from for a back aerial. That being Corrin’s cape attack. Ganondorf noticeably uses his cape in the Ocarina of Time battle, so I think having a cape attack fits him nicely. It would come out slower than current back aerial, which is surprisingly fast.

Down aerial thunder stomp is a classic, so it’s left alone. And that brings us to his grabs. Which is probably the thing I would most like to change about Ganondorf from a mechanical point. His grab range utterly sucks. Which is a shame because his throws are pretty decent. So I would give Ganondorf a grab that’s more similar to Pac-Man, much higher range, but fitting for him, quite slow and risky. Like most of Ganondorf’s arsenal, it’s something you have to judge carefully when to use.

On his actual throws, For his foward throws I'd change it from one upper cut to two uppercuts followed by a punch to the face, in reference to the punch rush Ganondorf uses in Ocarina of Time. This knocks enemies downwards into the stage and sends them sliding quite far. Enemies might instinctively tech it which actually leaves them open to follow up attacks.

Down and back throws are fine. Pummel could be changed to something more appropriate than a knee, but mechanically it’s hard to get a pummel wrong. The only other thing I have something significant to talk about is his up throw.

Ganondorf’s throws are good for leading into his combos (if you can ever actually grab someone), but he doesn’t have any kill throws. I would turn his up throw into a kill throw. Ganondorf holds his opponent up in the air and strikes them with lightning. This is reminiscent of Demise charging up his skyward strike, only Ganondorf is using his enemy as the sword.

Only last thing I’ll note is that his get up attacks are generic and fine, but his old down smash could be retooled into his get up attack, only weaker. Then again if it retained a similar power it would be rather hilarious and unique for a character to have such a strong get up attack.

I'd love to hear what people think about these ideas. I think it's a great way to modify his existing moveset not only to make it better, but also to look more interesting and take more inspiration from his games.

 

[Jotari]

Okay, now onto his specials. First thing I'll say is that I really want custom specials to come back, and not as variants like before but like what Paluentena has. A lot of what makes Ganondorf's moveset feel inappropriate is because of his appearances after Melee. Really if they'd used the sound affect for his floating on Dark Dive and replaced Warlock Punch with a projectile in Melee then he would have been pretty representative of Ocarina of Time Ganondorf, becuase there wasn't a whole lot to represent. And he's not the only character in this situation. Plenty of Smash veterans have newer abilities that aren't represented in Smash and custom specials would be a fantastic way to implement them. For more thoughts on my ideas for custom specials (including for Ganondorf) see here.

I made Custom Special moves for (nearly) every character in the game

I loved special moves in SSB4, at least as a concept. I think in practice they were mostly a bit on the uncreative side, but still cool nonetheless. And ever since I wanted to see them give unique custom specials to every character, not just Palutena and the Miis. So I've made them myself. But...

smashboards.com

But enough of that, let's look at the specials Ganondorf actually has and see if there's anything we can do with them.

The first is Warlock Punch.

Now the obvious thing here is to replace it with a magic projectile. Zelda was even kind enough to name such an attack in Phantom Hourglass, calling it Dead Man's Volley. But honestly I'm just too attached to this move to see it go. It's not massively functional, but it is so much fun when you land a hit. One possibility would be to add a projectile to the end of the attack like I did to his jab (kind of), and we even have a basis for that with Hyrule Warriors, but I think a projectile with so much start up just wouldn't be massively useful unless it's really strong, and Ganondorf's projectitles have always been simple lightning balls. So no, I think I'd keep Warlock Punch mostly the same, as ill fitting as it is to deny Ganondorf a projectile. I would however increase it's Power Armour to practically the entire attack, so it resembles Ryu's Focus Attack more than anything else. Unstoppable and devestating, but requiring a great read or a shield break to actually hit with.

^^^^
That's what I wrote on Warlock Punch when I first made this post. But later I posted this.

I happened to come across a video yesterday about Smash's most powerful attacks. Said video was good, but by the end was a thinly veiled video about altering Ganondorf's moveset. Specifically Warlock Punch, citing things like we have in this thread how the up tilt does more or less the same job. It got me thinking more about how to keep the move as it is, while also making it both more useful, and more unique. As I said before, the obvious answer is either to just replace it with a projectile, or to have it so Ganondorf punchs a projectile out of it like he does in Hyrule Warriors. But neither of those options sat right with me. As I want to keep the move, and making it effectively be a projectile (though one like Wolf's blaster with a more powerful melee hit box) would make the move lose it's identity, and probably wouldn't be a very useful projectile anyway with how long the attack still needs to be launched. So instead I came up with this.

So in function this is a lot like my idea for his Jab. Keeping the hit box as is, but extending it slightly to make it safer. However as this is a special move, this function is also more "special". The dark energy coming out of the attack is nowhere near as powerful as Warlock Punch itself, it's just a light stunning hit. However, if it hits any enemy that is above 100%, it will automatically kill them, similar to the Scythe or the lava pit in the Great Cave offensive. This sounds very dangerous, but remember, it's still Warlock Punch we're dealing with, even if the range is better, it takes an eternity to use. And if you're at 100% against Ganondorf, most of his attacks will probably still kill you anyway. No, the most effective thing about this is the mind games potential it has. Players will know getting hit by the blast when they are in the red will instantly kill them. And given Ganondorf's generous invincibility frames on the move, they know running up and hitting him is not really an option (though grabbing him is). So now this makes it far more dangerous to actually approach Ganondorf while he's charging up this attack, as misjudge your punish and you can take the blast energy to the face. The blast also gives it a lot better edge guarding potential as the length of the attack extends beyond the stage a good distance.

The second part of this attack is removing most of its end lag. It still has a rather lengthy end animation, but you can interrupt it with an attack. That was one of the things I loved doing with Ganondorf in Brawl and SSB4, his up smash actually has like no ending lag, so baiting people into attacking you by launching a useless up smash and then jabbing them in the fact was so satisfying. I'd try to replicate that aspect here and even give the attack some combo potential with the energy blast being possible to chain into a Wizard's Foot (or Trident Rush as I've altered that attack to be) on low percents where it doesn't automatically kill the enemy.

Yeah at high level play Warlock Punch would still probably be pretty useless due to how highly it's telegraphed. But extending it's range and removing it's ending lag would make it harder to punish, and the ability to kill without actually knocking the enemy off the stage would give it a real "special" feel to it, distinguishing it as a pretty unique attack in the game (that's using a feature that's already in the game, just not on any character's actual moveset).

Anyway if you're still visiting this thread tell me what you think of my updated Warlock Punch

Next is flame choke.

Beautiful move, contains several references to his own game and is super useful. Everything you want. I think pretty much all Ganondorf redesigns still want to keep Flame Choke in there somewhere. It seems to be the one move everyone agrees is great on Ganondorf. So yeah, I have no desire to replace or change it. I would however give it an extra property by merging it with Flame Wave from SSB4. That's a Flame Choke custom where Ganondorf blasts the opponent away rather than dropping them to the ground. Personally I never felt Flame Wave all that useful, as I'd rather try and use Flame Choke to set up follow up attacks, but Flame Wave does give some kill potential on a command grab and both can be implemented simultaneously. So my version of Flame Choke would have the regular old drop them to the ground if you hold the B button, but if you merely tap it then he'll perform Flame Wave and launch them away. A bit like Mythra's up special having two variations of the projectile.

Next is Dark Dive. A burst of flight, and Ganondorf can fly, so I call that a reference to his games even though it's clearly just in there because that's what Falcon did. Still, they did make it more Ganondorfy by having him electrocute his enemies and they added that nifty punch in Brawl. But still I want more. So this is my Dark Dive.

I've added another ending to the move, one that actually let's the Dive part of the name make sense. This works like Flame Choke, if you merely tap the button he will do regular Dark Dive, but if you hold it throughout, he will do an extra pound going straight downwards, about as fast as Bowser's Bowser Bomb. This can deal some hefty damage and even buries foes it doesn't quite hit on the final frames. However it provides no horizontal movement for Ganondorf, so if you're not careful you can accidentally suicide with it. And as powerful as it is, it's pretty telegraphed as Dark Dive is going to put you pretty high in the air for opponents to see the attack coming. I've used frames from Wizard's Foot to represent it in my gif, but it would actually be an earth shattering punch like in Ocarina of Time (an attack that's already referenced in his forward aerial, but I think a more direct reference like this is nice for the sake of giving Dark Dive some extra umph). Speaking of Wizard's Foot, his last special.

So I'm happy with Wizard's Foot as a move and don't see any need to alter it (I did before Smash Ultimate, but it's actually much better now than before). However, representation is the name of the game and judging by how excited people were to see Ganondorf get a sword, they'd lose their minds if he got a trident. So I've replaced Wizard's Foot with Trident Rush. Functionally on the ground it is the same as Wizard's foot, though maybe with a more disjointed hitbox if people try to hit Ganondorf from above while he uses it, but I'm not sure if that would make any difference at all (probably wouldn't). However, in the air it works a bit differently.

Ganondorf first tosses the Trident downwards, and then performs a Wizard's Foot to catch it. The trident is launched much faster than the old Wizard's Foot and any enemy that it hits will be pinned in place, like with Corrin's Dragon Lunge, before Ganondorf blasts down on them with the main damaging part of the attack. The trident can be shielded, but the damage from the trident to a shield can make it so the Wizard's Foot part of the attack can potentially shield poke opponents who don't direct their shield.

His final smash is fine. It's always been one of the better final smashes.

And that's it. Once again do tell me how you feel about all these changes, wether you like them or not, wether you want Ganondorf to stay exactly the same or change completely, it doesn't matter much. I'm eager to hear what you have to say.

And for the record, if all of these changes were hypothetically included, the only moves he would share any similarity at all with Captain Falcon would be his Down Aerial, Up Tilt and Warlock Punch, all of which function incredibly different to Falcon's versions (especially the up tilt).

 

[Ridley_Prime]

His Up tilt is a pretty odd attack that a lot of people complain about, but personally I love it. It's one of those really satisfying attacks to use, and unlike Warlock Punch it actually has use in edge guarding. I would like a way to cancel it for accidental uses though.

Not entirely true on the Warlock Punch part. As an edgeguard you can condition the opponent to ledge jump or ledge roll behind you during the startup of the move, then do the turnaround mid animation and hit them. That said, I agree with the few uses of up tilt/volcano kick, but it's one of those moves I both love and hate.

Dash attack fine. Don't find myself using it in Smash U as much as previous games (probably because his Air game has improved), but it works okay as an attack.

I would recommend using the current dash attack more. The late hit sourspot is actually one of his best combo starters, and covers some of the most options after flame choke. If there's a platform that they're knocked on to from the dash attack (after flame choke or down throw), you can up smash them afterward. On that note, late hit dash attack > up smash is a good 50/50 mixup; you can charge the up smash beforehand too to wait out a neutral airdodge.

Next is his down Smash.

I find that this attack looks a bit weak, especially the first knock with the hilt, it just doesn't feel like a solid move. And I don't if it's just because of that or because it's also not a good move, but I just don't find myself using it often. I prefer going for a down tilt in such scenarios. So I want to give him a new down smash. For this attack Ganondorf charges up energy in his hands and then plants it onto the ground, damaging enemies on either side of him. Has a bit more start up lag than his current down smash, but he doesn't have to worry about enemies rolling behind him when using it.

To be honest, I'm fine with his current down smash. It's actually my 2nd favorite smash of his now (the first being up smash). It's another good move to use after flame choke, covering a good chunk of the opponent's movement options, and is a pretty good kill move setup in general when you're at the edge facing the opponent, though suppose the same could be said for his previous d-smash with the kicks. It can also be a good alternative edgeguard tool when you're facing the opposite direction from the opponent. Example.

That's my 2 cents on some uses of his current kit, but good thread you got here overall still.

 

[Jotari]

Not entirely true on the Warlock Punch part. As an edgeguard you can condition the opponent to ledge jump or ledge roll behind you during the startup of the move, then do the turnaround mid animation and hit them. That said, I agree with the few uses of up tilt/volcano kick, but it's one of those moves I both love and hate.

Oh you definitely can use Warlock Punch still. And it's increased invincibility frames is a massive boon to it. But at the end of the day you're still better off using an Up Smash in 90% of situations. I still love it as a move though, it's incredibly satisfying when you do pull it off.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Those flaming bats look kinda un-intimidating in their pixel form, but I assume that's just because it's more of a simple demonstration thing you made. They'd likely look wicked cool if given the HD animation treatment the Ultimate developers could give them. Seems like it'd be in line with Bayonetta's butterflies!

 

[Jotari]

Those flaming bats look kinda un-intimidating in their pixel form, but I assume that's just because it's more of a simple demonstration thing you made. They'd likely look wicked cool if given the HD animation treatment the Ultimate developers could give them. Seems like it'd be in line with Bayonetta's butterflies!

Indeed XD We work with what we can. The hand on the up Aerial also goes right over his face in my demonstration. But at least it conveys the general properties of the attack.

 

[Jotari]

Want suggestions for Steve? Standard Special should probably stay the same...but the rest can be changed.

Side Special could be Pig Riding. Steve will hop onto a Pig and steer it with a Carrot on a Stick. This is kind of like a slower version of Wario Bike. If Steve dismounts, the Pig will wander the stage and can be killed by any characters' attacks. When the Pig dies, it drops some pork that anyone can eat to restore some health.

Up Special should be the Ender Pearl. Steve throws an Ender Pearl, which can be angled just like Yoshi's eggs. Steve will instantly teleport to wherever the Pearl lands at the cost of receiving 5% damage in the process. If the Pearl hits an enemy, Steve will be teleported directly in front of them and can immediately follow up with an attack.

Down Special can be the Water Bucket. Steve will use the Water Bucket to pour water that flows along the ground, pushing opponents away in the process. If the water flows off a platform, it will flow directly downward, but in this case, players can hold the jump button to "swim" upward through the water. Water sticks around for a few seconds, but Steve can clean it up quickly by using the now-empty bucket again on the spot where he originally emptied it.

Not entirely true on the Warlock Punch part. As an edgeguard you can condition the opponent to ledge jump or ledge roll behind you during the startup of the move, then do the turnaround mid animation and hit them. That said, I agree with the few uses of up tilt/volcano kick, but it's one of those moves I both love and hate.


I would recommend using the current dash attack more. The late hit sourspot is actually one of his best combo starters, and covers some of the most options after flame choke. If there's a platform that they're knocked on to from the dash attack (after flame choke or down throw), you can up smash them afterward. On that note, late hit dash attack > up smash is a good 50/50 mixup; you can charge the up smash beforehand too to wait out a neutral airdodge.


To be honest, I'm fine with his current down smash. It's actually my 2nd favorite smash of his now (the first being up smash). It's another good move to use after flame choke, covering a good chunk of the opponent's movement options, and is a pretty good kill move setup in general when you're at the edge facing the opponent, though suppose the same could be said for his previous d-smash with the kicks. It can also be a good alternative edgeguard tool when you're facing the opposite direction from the opponent. Example.

That's my 2 cents on some uses of his current kit, but good thread you got here overall still.

Those flaming bats look kinda un-intimidating in their pixel form, but I assume that's just because it's more of a simple demonstration thing you made. They'd likely look wicked cool if given the HD animation treatment the Ultimate developers could give them. Seems like it'd be in line with Bayonetta's butterflies!

Okay, I've added the Speical Moves section for anyone interested.

 

[Quillion]

I just wish Ganondorf was reverted to his Smash 4 animations (except the run; that's goofy) plus something similar to his Melee stats, but I like how your revamp mainly focuses on giving him more options while not just retaining the animations and feel of the old moves, but improving them. Perhaps your potential semi-revamp would've been more tolerable than the tacked-on sword Smashes of Ultimate that don't fit his established Smash portrayal in the slightest.

I also agree that Warlock Punch shouldn't be thrown out for a projectile. But I have an idea for him that can reference his Dead Man's Volley in spirit: tap B to do a quick projectile-reflecting, combo-starting backhand, hold B for the move as it is now. This would reference Ganondorf's penchant for reflecting back projectiles while giving Warlock Punch a more practical variation and keeping its current function. I think Volcano Kick should get a similar treatment (apparently both Project M and Smash Flash 2 do the same thing already), as well as Falcon's Falcon Punch and Byleth's Aymr.

Your ideas are actually a bit similar to my own in terms of "aesthetically change but keep him the same" that I like to brainstorm on occasion. Here's something I myself came up with:

Spoiler: My ideas for semi-revamping Ganondorf

Neutral-B: Warlock Punch: Can be tapped to do a quick, projectile-reflecting, combo-starting backhand, but can be held down to do the move as it is now.

Side-B: Can stay where it is.

Up-B: Posession: Ganondorf dissolves into dark smoke and rises up. If he makes contact with anyone in this state, they are still grabbed (possessed in this case), then Ganondorf jumps out of the opponent. If he doesn't make contact and but hits with the end of the move, he releases a burst of energy that sends opponents skyward.

Down-B: Trident of Power: Same as Dark Dive, but instead of holding out his foot, he rushes forward with his trident held out. He still goes sideways on the ground and diagonally down in the air. Has more range.

Jab: Same, but a spark appears a bit away from Ganondorf's hand signifying a sweetspot. This sweetspot has stunning properties and allows for better followup.

U-tilt: Raises his hand and creates a ball of fire. If A is held, he charges it for a bit and tosses it into the ground for a big explosion. This way, his u-tilt can be used as an actual u-tilt, but the element of the Volcano Kick is still present.

F-air: Vertical aerial sword swing. Same frame data as his current F-air, but better range means better approach.

U-air: A quick horizontal sword swing. Otherwise, I definitely would change it back to the old U-air where it sets up for and continues juggles better.

Every other move can stay the same. Including sword smashes.

 

[Jotari]

I just wish Ganondorf was reverted to his Smash 4 animations (except the run; that's goofy) plus something similar to his Melee stats, but I like how your revamp mainly focuses on giving him more options while not just retaining the animations and feel of the old moves, but improving them. Perhaps your potential semi-revamp would've been more tolerable than the tacked-on sword Smashes of Ultimate that don't fit his established Smash portrayal in the slightest.

I also agree that Warlock Punch shouldn't be thrown out for a projectile. But I have an idea for him that can reference his Dead Man's Volley in spirit: tap B to do a quick projectile-reflecting, combo-starting backhand, hold B for the move as it is now. This would reference Ganondorf's penchant for reflecting back projectiles while giving Warlock Punch a more practical variation and keeping its current function. I think Volcano Kick should get a similar treatment (apparently both Project M and Smash Flash 2 do the same thing already), as well as Falcon's Falcon Punch and Byleth's Aymr.

Your ideas are actually a bit similar to my own in terms of "aesthetically change but keep him the same" that I like to brainstorm on occasion. Here's something I myself came up with:

Spoiler: My ideas for semi-revamping Ganondorf

Neutral-B: Warlock Punch: Can be tapped to do a quick, projectile-reflecting, combo-starting backhand, but can be held down to do the move as it is now.

Side-B: Can stay where it is.

Up-B: Posession: Ganondorf dissolves into dark smoke and rises up. If he makes contact with anyone in this state, they are still grabbed (possessed in this case), then Ganondorf jumps out of the opponent. If he doesn't make contact and but hits with the end of the move, he releases a burst of energy that sends opponents skyward.

Down-B: Trident of Power: Same as Dark Dive, but instead of holding out his foot, he rushes forward with his trident held out. He still goes sideways on the ground and diagonally down in the air. Has more range.

Jab: Same, but a spark appears a bit away from Ganondorf's hand signifying a sweetspot. This sweetspot has stunning properties and allows for better followup.

U-tilt: Raises his hand and creates a ball of fire. If A is held, he charges it for a bit and tosses it into the ground for a big explosion. This way, his u-tilt can be used as an actual u-tilt, but the element of the Volcano Kick is still present.

F-air: Vertical aerial sword swing. Same frame data as his current F-air, but better range means better approach.

U-air: A quick horizontal sword swing. Otherwise, I definitely would change it back to the old U-air where it sets up for and continues juggles better.

Every other move can stay the same. Including sword smashes.

I like most ideas, but not possession. It seems the mechanics of it would work exactly the same as Dark Dive, so it would mostly be an aesthetic change, but possessing someone is something he's only ever done like once (maybe twice if we count A Link to the Past). I don't think it's a big part of his character (amusingly, I'd say it's a bigger part of Zelda's character given Spirit Tracks). And Dark Dive as is I think suits him well enough, being a burst of flight and magical electrocution. If i were to give him any other recovery it would be tossing the trident like a boomerang and then warping to it as he's frequently does as Ganon.

 

[Quillion]

I like most ideas, but not possession. It seems the mechanics of it would work exactly the same as Dark Dive, so it would mostly be an aesthetic change, but possessing someone is something he's only ever done like once (maybe twice if we count A Link to the Past). I don't think it's a big part of his character (amusingly, I'd say it's a bigger part of Zelda's character given Spirit Tracks). And Dark Dive as is I think suits him well enough, being a burst of flight and magical electrocution. If i were to give him any other recovery it would be tossing the trident like a boomerang and then warping to it as he's frequently does as Ganon.

Agreed, but some people seem to think that a "one shot" move or ability is somehow better than a vague reference.

 

[Jotari]

Agreed, but some people seem to think that a "one shot" move or ability is somehow better than a vague reference.

I don't think that would be the case. I think people more inclined to rebuild Ganondorf's moveset would want a warp or a float as his recovery.

 

[Quillion]

I don't think that would be the case. I think people more inclined to rebuild Ganondorf's moveset would want a warp or a float as his recovery.

A teleport would make him too much like Mewtwo though while a float would make him too much like ROB.

 

[Jotari]

A teleport would make him too much like Mewtwo though while a float would make him too much like ROB.

Yeah, I don't think either would particularly suit his moveset. That's why I've left Dark Dive as it is (though added an extra part to the attack to be remeniscent of his earthquake punch in Ocarina of Time).

 

[StrangeKitten]

I honestly like the sword smashes. They suit him well, even if the sword was only ever seen in a tech demo. I want small hitbox fixes to remove their blind spots more than I want any redesigns for them. Wouldn't complain if he used his trident instead, though.

I'd add more darkness effects to his attacks, and replace Warlock Punch with a non-chargeable projectile that would be around the same size and strength as a half-charged Shadow Ball from Mewtwo. I would give him a regular up tilt that would have a pretty wide % window to combo into up air at low and mid%s, since his combo game could use the help. Have I gotten mileage out of Warlock Punch and Volcano Kick? Sure, especially 2-framing with the latter. But I'd still gladly trade them for more useful neutral tools, as he doesn't really need these two YOLO kill options. That's what his smash attacks are for.

Those are the only major changes I'd do. Of course, he won't get changes like that in Ultimate (if ever), so for now, I really hope they throw the same love his way that they've thrown to most of the other superheavies. He's long overdue for buffs; I really hope the dev teams stops neglecting him.

 

[Jotari]

I honestly like the sword smashes. They suit him well, even if the sword was only ever seen in a tech demo. I want small hitbox fixes to remove their blind spots more than I want any redesigns for them. Wouldn't complain if he used his trident instead, though.

I'd add more darkness effects to his attacks, and replace Warlock Punch with a non-chargeable projectile that would be around the same size and strength as a half-charged Shadow Ball from Mewtwo. I would give him a regular up tilt that would have a pretty wide % window to combo into up air at low and mid%s, since his combo game could use the help. Have I gotten mileage out of Warlock Punch and Volcano Kick? Sure, especially 2-framing with the latter. But I'd still gladly trade them for more useful neutral tools, as he doesn't really need these two YOLO kill options. That's what his smash attacks are for.

Those are the only major changes I'd do. Of course, he won't get changes like that in Ultimate (if ever), so for now, I really hope they throw the same love his way that they've thrown to most of the other superheavies. He's long overdue for buffs; I really hope the dev teams stops neglecting him.

I could maybe see them removing the blind spots on his smashes in an update. But yeah, they'll never outright change the function or replace a move entirely via an update.
In regards to his sword smashes, I was a bit iffy on them at first, but I like them them too, now. I just find the coverage of his forward and up smash is too similar, and I'd rather an attack that covers both sides, that's why my proposed change alters his forward and down smash. The forward smash still uses the sword though, just in a different manner.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

You can surprisingly get some aerial followups after edgeguarding with Volcano Kick at early %, namely fair or bair if you’re quick enough, and shorthop aerial flame choke, which even if they break out of can send them to their death.

Doing an up tilt after down throw is sometimes funny too if they like double jump when trying to DI away and get caught by the vacuum effect. Said effect covers platforms too if they’re not too high above, and if they’re caught by it in either scenario, will have to either take the hit or a likely shield break. The move can be a nice counter to Zelda’s up B too when timed/anticipated right.

That said, Volcano Kick’s the first thing I’d want to see go even with the few mentioned positives it has.

Even without a viable up tilt, would say his current combo game’s surprisingly decent for what it is, but still… Yeah.

The blindspot fixes is what he needs first and foremost. Wouldn’t be surprised if some were intentional though.

Despite the obvious shortcomings he still has, I’ve been happier with Ganon as a secondary/co-main in Ultimate than most if not all previous Smashes, but still like pretty much all the ideas posted here.

 

[Quillion]

I honestly like the sword smashes. They suit him well, even if the sword was only ever seen in a tech demo. I want small hitbox fixes to remove their blind spots more than I want any redesigns for them. Wouldn't complain if he used his trident instead, though.

I'd add more darkness effects to his attacks, and replace Warlock Punch with a non-chargeable projectile that would be around the same size and strength as a half-charged Shadow Ball from Mewtwo. I would give him a regular up tilt that would have a pretty wide % window to combo into up air at low and mid%s, since his combo game could use the help. Have I gotten mileage out of Warlock Punch and Volcano Kick? Sure, especially 2-framing with the latter. But I'd still gladly trade them for more useful neutral tools, as he doesn't really need these two YOLO kill options. That's what his smash attacks are for.

Those are the only major changes I'd do. Of course, he won't get changes like that in Ultimate (if ever), so for now, I really hope they throw the same love his way that they've thrown to most of the other superheavies. He's long overdue for buffs; I really hope the dev teams stops neglecting him.

The problem with the sword smashes is that they are conceptually horrible moves that alienate the fans who liked how they were before. They long establish Ganon as a heavy brawler, and then they undermine that by giving him moves that edge him on Ike's niche.

It also doesn't help that they bowed to the vocal minority of complainers like sheep instead of stick to their guns. And seriously, these same whiners celebrate that Zelda lost her Light Arrow instead of reworking that as a regular move.

Whew, I just had to rant about that. At least Jotari 's proposed changes leave the sword as an alternative option instead of replacing them.

Anyway, giving Ganondorf a projectile would be an even worse, more alienating idea than the sword smashes.

 

[Jotari]

You can surprisingly get some aerial followups after edgeguarding with Volcano Kick at early %, namely fair or bair if you’re quick enough, and shorthop aerial flame choke, which even if they break out of can send them to their death.

Doing an up tilt after down throw is sometimes funny too if they like double jump when trying to DI away and get caught by the vacuum effect. Said effect covers platforms too if they’re not too high above, and if they’re caught by it in either scenario, will have to either take the hit or a likely shield break. The move can be a nice counter to Zelda’s up B too when timed/anticipated right.

That said, Volcano Kick’s the first thing I’d want to see go even with the few mentioned positives it has.

Even without a viable up tilt, would say his current combo game’s surprisingly decent for what it is, but still… Yeah.

The blindspot fixes is what he needs first and foremost. Wouldn’t be surprised if some were intentional though.

Despite the obvious shortcomings he still has, I’ve been happier with Ganon as a secondary/co-main in Ultimate than most if not all previous Smashes, but still like pretty much all the ideas posted here.

I think I'd rather see Warlock Punch outright replaced before I'd see the Volcano Kick replaced. As it does have the positive utility you've mentioned, while Warlock Punch is mostly just a strong attack that is more unreliable and doesn't have any more viability as a kill move than his Smashes. I am irrationally attached to both moves though, hence why I didn't replace either in my suggestions in the OP.

The problem with the sword smashes is that they are conceptually horrible moves that alienate the fans who liked how they were before. They long establish Ganon as a heavy brawler, and then they undermine that by giving him moves that edge him on Ike's niche.

It also doesn't help that they bowed to the vocal minority of complainers like sheep instead of stick to their guns. And seriously, these same whiners celebrate that Zelda lost her Light Arrow instead of reworking that as a regular move.

Whew, I just had to rant about that. At least Jotari 's proposed changes leave the sword as an alternative option instead of replacing them.

Anyway, giving Ganondorf a projectile would be an even worse, more alienating idea than the sword smashes.

I do see your point, and Ganondorf turning from a Captain Falcon clone to an Ike clone was one of my biggest concerns with giving him a sword. But ultimately I think it works for him precisely because it is limited to the smash attacks. Ganondorf's standards still have the launch potential and lack of range that's good for both comboing and killing. And the smashes do play into his strength of punishing reads with the mechanic of extended charging beyond max damage. On of my favourite things to do with his Up smash is to delay swinging it against an opponent who's predicting it and shielding on a ledge above him. By delaying the swing and letting a second to past while the shield reduces, he's more likely to break the shield than to just whiff the attack, which feels pure Ganondorf. The only one, as I've mentioned already, that I don't really like is his down smash, but I also had problems with how his old down smash felt to use too.

 

[Quillion]

I think I'd rather see Warlock Punch outright replaced before I'd see the Volcano Kick replaced. As it does have the positive utility you've mentioned, while Warlock Punch is mostly just a strong attack that is more unreliable and doesn't have any more viability as a kill move than his Smashes. I am irrationally attached to both moves though, hence why I didn't replace either in my suggestions in the OP.

Still think both moves should have weak "tap" and strong "charge" options so that everyone wins. And Warlock Punch's "tap" option would reflect projectiles.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

I think I'd rather see Warlock Punch outright replaced before I'd see the Volcano Kick replaced. As it does have the positive utility you've mentioned, while Warlock Punch is mostly just a strong attack that is more unreliable and doesn't have any more viability as a kill move than his Smashes. I am irrationally attached to both moves though, hence why I didn't replace either in my suggestions in the OP.

I guess I'm more partial to Warlock Punch because of the increased mobility you can have when using it compared to Volcano Kick; as a ledge jump attack mixup, and of course the stylish kills you can get from doing it as a turnaround special or wavebounce, the latter of which is hardest to do with WP but can be done apparently. Aside from also simply finding the animation of it cooler, I suppose the armor that WP eventually got made me a bit more forgiving of it too, even if it's otherwise as counterable as it was before. At least give Ganondorf some armor during Volcano Kick with how vulnerable it leaves him. IDK

But yeah, there's reason for one to prefer Volcano Kick out of the two depending on their preference. If nothing else I would make both of them chargeable attacks or cancellable into a weaker version of the two moves as the above post suggested.

 

[Jotari]

I guess I'm more partial to Warlock Punch because of the increased mobility you can have when using it compared to Volcano Kick; as a ledge jump attack mixup, and of course the stylish kills you can get from doing it as a turnaround special or wavebounce, the latter of which is hardest to do with WP but can be done apparently. Aside from also simply finding the animation of it cooler, I suppose the armor that WP eventually got made me a bit more forgiving of it too, even if it's otherwise as counterable as it was before. At least give Ganondorf some armor during Volcano Kick with how vulnerable it leaves him. IDK

But yeah, there's reason for one to prefer Volcano Kick out of the two depending on their preference. If nothing else I would make both of them chargeable attacks or cancellable into a weaker version of the two moves as the above post suggested.

Giving Volcano Kick a turn around option, while bloody weird for an up tilt, would be hilariously useful. As far as making them chargable, I think it would be a bit weird for an up tilt to be chargable. Wouldn't that basically just be an Up Smash? It could definitely to with a cancel though. And invincibility frames would always be nice. Though I tend to use it only for edgeguarding where I know there's small chance the enemy will actually reach me in time to punish the long wind up. Still, would never turn down invicbility frames, especially if it's at the last few frames when the attack is actually being launched. After all the charge up it should come out unstoppable.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

I mean turnaround tilts are kind of already a thing; for any character when facing right as an example, press the control stick diagonally up left and hit A and you'll do a turnaround up tilt. I get why Volcano Kick wasn't given that option though due to how differently it works from other up tilts, but it would've given it more potential use, yeah.

edit: After testing in training to be sure, turns out you can actually do this with Volcano Kick. Not sure when it became possible or if it always was and I just didn’t consider it, but good to know as of now.

And fair enough on the other points.

 

[Jotari]

I mean turnaround tilts are kind of already a thing; for any character when facing right as an example, press the control stick diagonally up left and hit A and you'll do a turnaround up tilt. I get why Volcano Kick wasn't given that option though due to how differently it works from other up tilts, but it would've given it more potential use, yeah.

edit: After testing in training to be sure, turns out you can actually do this with Volcano Kick. Not sure when it became possible or if it always was and I just didn’t consider it, but good to know as of now.

And fair enough on the other points.

I mean turn around after the kick has already been in progress for quite some time, like Byleth's Aymr. I assume you mean it can be executed and quickly turned around. If you could just turn it around at the last moment and hit behind you, that'd be pretty great and I'd feel stupid for not knowing it sooner.

 

[Jotari]

I didn't really mean to come back to this and add any more changes beyond the first two posts. But then I happened to come across a video yesterday about Smash's most powerful attacks. Said video was good, but by the end was a thinly veiled video about altering Ganondorf's moveset. Specifically Warlock Punch, citing things like we have in this thread how the down tilt does more or less the same job. It got me thinking more about how to keep the move as it is, while also making it both more useful, and more unique. As I said before, the obvious answer is either to just replace it with a projectile, or to have it so Ganondorf punchs a projectile out of it like he does in Hyrule Warriors. But neither of those options sat right with me. As I want to keep the move, and making it effectively be a projectile (though one like Wolf's blaster with a more powerful melee hit box) would make the move lose it's identity, and probably wouldn't be a very useful projectile anyway with how long the attack still needs to be launched. So instead I came up with this.

So in function this is a lot like my idea for his Jab. Keeping the hit box as is, but extending it slightly to make it safer. However as this is a special move, this function is also more "special". The dark energy coming out of the attack is nowhere near as powerful as Warlock Punch itself, it's just a light stunning hit. However, if it hits any enemy that is above 100%, it will automatically kill them, similar to the Scythe or the lava pit in the Great Cave offensive. This sounds very dangerous, but remember, it's still Warlock Punch we're dealing with, even if the range is better, it takes an eternity to use. And if you're at 100% against Ganondorf, most of his attacks will probably still kill you anyway. No, the most effective thing about this is the mind games potential it has. Players will no getting hit by the blast when they are in the red will instantly kill them. And given Ganondorf's generous invincibility frames on the move, they know running up and hitting him is not really an option (though grabbing him is). So now this makes it far ore dangerous to actually approach Ganondorf while he's charging up this attack, as misjudge your punish and you can take the blast energy to the face. The blast also gives it a lot better edge guarding potential as the length of the attack extends beyond the stage a good distance.

The second part of this attack is removing most of its end lag. It still has a rather lengthy end animation, but you can interrupt it with an attack. That was one of the things I loved doing with Ganondorf in Brawl and SSB4, his up smash actually has like no ending lag, so baiting people into attacking you by launching a useless up smash and then jabbing them in the fact was so satisfying. I'd try to replicate that aspect here and even give the attack some combo potential with the energy blast being possible to chain into a Wizard's Foot (or Trident Rush as I've altered that attack to be) on low percents where it doesn't automatically kill the enemy.

Yeah at high level play Warlock Punch would still probably be pretty useless due to how highly it's telegraphed. But extending it's range and removing it's ending lag would make it harder to punish, and the ability to kill without actually knocking the enemy off the stage would give it a real "special" feel to it, distinguishing it as a pretty unique attack in the game (that's using a feature that's already in the game, just not on any character's actual moveset).

Anyway if you're still visiting this thread tell me what you think of my updated Warlock Punch

 

[Deleted member]

As someone who's been obsessed on how could be overhauled in the future of Smash as of late, I'm glad this topic exists.

I dig on the idea of the fire bats for new attacks, but I'm more on the idea of replacing his neutral aerial with a completely new move, like summoning two fire bats from his cape before spinning around him for a few seconds.

I'm also more on the idea on making more uses of his trident, like swirls it above him for his new up aerial, and using it as part of an all new dash attack which would consist of two stages (a first in Smash), the first consisting of a bash, followed by a slash with his trident if the button is pressed a second time, akin to this attack he performed in Twilight Princess:

And in the case it'd still be too much work depending on the circumstances of SSBU's successor's development, he still could at least have retooled versions of his best custom moves from Smash For, notably his Warlock Blade and Wizard's Dropkick:

 

[Jotari]

As someone who's been obsessed on how could be overhauled in the future of Smash as of late, I'm glad this topic exists.

I dig on the idea of the fire bats for new attacks, but I'm more on the idea of replacing his neutral aerial with a completely new move, like summoning two fire bats from his cape before spinning around him for a few seconds.

I'm also more on the idea on making more uses of his trident, like swirls it above him for his new up aerial, and using it as part of an all new dash attack which would consist of two stages (a first in Smash), the first consisting of a bash, followed by a slash with his trident if the button is pressed a second time, akin to this attack he performed in Twilight Princess:

And in the case it'd still be too much work depending on the circumstances of SSBU's successor's development, he still could at least have retooled versions of his best custom moves from Smash For, notably his Warlock Blade and Wizard's Dropkick:

The thing about changing his neutral air to something original using the bats is that his current neutral air is already one of his best approach options. So it's quite a vital asset in his moveset for players who know how to use it. So I'd hesitate to overhaul it completely without a good idea of how well the replacement one functions. Giving him something like Mewtwo's neutral might make sense visually, but how well would it play functionally is more pertinent question.

Before SSBU I was pretty eager to see Warlock Blade replace Warlock Punch. It was a good compromise to him not using a sword, but now the he actually does use a sword for his smash attacks and I accept that, I don't have as much of a desire to see Warlock Blade return. Warlock Punch is more classic.

If we could make it so Wizard's Foot and Wizard's Drop Kick were in the same move, like I suggested for Flame Choke/Flame Wave (ie a hold vs tap variation doing the two different types of attacks) then that'd be pretty cool, especially for recovery. But I wouldn't like to give up Wizard's Foot for Wizard's Drop Kick, as Wizard's Foot is really good in Ultimate. And if it's a question of custom moves, I'd rather, should customs return, they be more diverse than things like Wizard's Foot and Drop Kick. And it's moot for my own ideas anyway as I replaced Wizard's Foot with a functionally similar Trident Rush.

What you suggest for a new Dash Attack is the same thing I suggested for a New Forward Smash (though it'd also be similar to his old forward smash since he used an elbow in both to begin with). I'd be hesitant to give him his trident in his normal moves. As I like Brawler Ganon. Giving him his sword in his Smash attacks was already a pretty bold move, if more attacks are replaced with trident swipes then you've basically changed his whole moveset, which is precisely what I don't want. That being said, I could see his up and down aerials being replaced by a trident while still functioning identical to their past versions. But I like my own idea for the Flame Bats better for his up aerial and the thunder stomp is also a classic move for his down aerial that I don't want to see replaced.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Already knew nair was one of current Ganondorf’s best moves, but the extent of which I learned the down throw > delayed nair combo originally founded by the Japanese player Gungnir makes me appreciate nair even more. The inputs and timing is tough, but after dthrow, if you dash 1 to 2 frames, shorthop, hit A just a few frames after, and hold down right after the first kick, you can fastfall in between the nair while both kicks still come out but also land sooner and can get dash attack or another nair as a true combo followup.

The extent of my practice so far with it is just being able to do it at 2/3 speed or slower in training mode. At 1x normal speed I struggle to do it consistently, so not sure if it's something I'll become good enough to pull off in real matches, but happy with how far I've come in understanding it nonetheless. The important thing is saving as many frames as you can with that stuff. We can’t all be Gungnir, but getting dthrow > nair’s as close to true for followups as possible can take you a long way.

And look at those triple nair combos demonstrated on DK. Almost makes Ganondorf look like Sheik.

 

[Deleted member]

The thing about changing his neutral air to something original using the bats is that his current neutral air is already one of his best approach options. So it's quite a vital asset in his moveset for players who know how to use it. So I'd hesitate to overhaul it completely without a good idea of how well the replacement one functions. Giving him something like Mewtwo's neutral might make sense visually, but how well would it play functionally is more pertinent question.

Before SSBU I was pretty eager to see Warlock Blade replace Warlock Punch. It was a good compromise to him not using a sword, but now the he actually does use a sword for his smash attacks and I accept that, I don't have as much of a desire to see Warlock Blade return. Warlock Punch is more classic.

If we could make it so Wizard's Foot and Wizard's Drop Kick were in the same move, like I suggested for Flame Choke/Flame Wave (ie a hold vs tap variation doing the two different types of attacks) then that'd be pretty cool, especially for recovery. But I wouldn't like to give up Wizard's Foot for Wizard's Drop Kick, as Wizard's Foot is really good in Ultimate. And if it's a question of custom moves, I'd rather, should customs return, they be more diverse than things like Wizard's Foot and Drop Kick. And it's moot for my own ideas anyway as I replaced Wizard's Foot with a functionally similar Trident Rush.

What you suggest for a new Dash Attack is the same thing I suggested for a New Forward Smash (though it'd also be similar to his old forward smash since he used an elbow in both to begin with). I'd be hesitant to give him his trident in his normal moves. As I like Brawler Ganon. Giving him his sword in his Smash attacks was already a pretty bold move, if more attacks are replaced with trident swipes then you've basically changed his whole moveset, which is precisely what I don't want. That being said, I could see his up and down aerials being replaced by a trident while still functioning identical to their past versions. But I like my own idea for the Flame Bats better for his up aerial and the thunder stomp is also a classic move for his down aerial that I don't want to see replaced.

Admittedly I'm not much into competitions and don't play as that often, so I get that, while it is still derived from , his neutral air is a useful tool to the character's overall flow.
For my defense I've been checking this thread about moves tier-lists on Reddit, and noticed how the best neutral aerials tend to be "rotating" ones, notably 's, 's and 's, thus I thought my idea of a new neutral air I suggested above would give a better flow as well as being a neat new reference to 's overall portrayal.

The way I consider getting overhauled is to replace the moves that still are derived from 's with new ones, and by making 's global moveset more of an amalgamation of all of his appearances in the Zelda series, both in his Gerudo and pig forms.

And I see where you go for his new forward smash, though I'd still suggest to use his trident instead as it'd look weird to perform a swing with a large two-handed sword as opposed to the one-handed sword he used in Twilight Princess.

 

[Geno Boost]

i would say keep Ganondorf twilight princess design i am not sure why they had to remove that one if we can have 2 Ike designs why cant we have 2 Ganons with 2 different voices

 

[Jotari]

Admittedly I'm not much into competitions and don't play as that often, so I get that, while it is still derived from , his neutral air is a useful tool to the character's overall flow.
For my defense I've been checking this thread about moves tier-lists on Reddit, and noticed how the best neutral aerials tend to be "rotating" ones, notably 's, 's and 's, thus I thought my idea of a new neutral air I suggested above would give a better flow as well as being a neat new reference to 's overall portrayal.

The way I consider getting overhauled is to replace the moves that still are derived from 's with new ones, and by making 's global moveset more of an amalgamation of all of his appearances in the Zelda series, both in his Gerudo and pig forms.

And I see where you go for his new forward smash, though I'd still suggest to use his trident instead as it'd look weird to perform a swing with a large two-handed sword as opposed to the one-handed sword he used in Twilight Princess.

You'll note from the results of that linked thread that Ganondorf's current neutral air is already rated by them as very high tier. Not that I'm against changing it, it's just that whatever it's changed to should retain the same properties as one of Ganondorf's few moves with combo potential. That doesn't necesairly have to be done by being two forward hits, but there's something of a "If it ain't broke, why fix it" mentality. Sure he shares it with Cpt Falcon, but some characters do share moves with other character. Pikachu and Luigi have the same side special. King K Rool and Ridley have the same Down Smash. Charizard and Wario share the same up special. Half the sword users share the same one-two swipe down smash. People judge Ganondorf harshly for being a clone of Falcon, but after the changes he received in Brawl and Ultimate, he doesn't have a massive mount of similarities to Falcon any more. My desire to change his neutral aerial visually more comes from me thinking that his current neutral aerial just doesn't look right for him more than a desire to distant him from Falcon.

i would say keep Ganondorf twilight princess design i am not sure why they had to remove that one if we can have 2 Ike designs why cant we have 2 Ganons with 2 different voices

I agree whole heartedly. They wouldn't even need two different voices to satisfy me. Instead of releasing dozens of Wii Costumes I never plan to buy, I wish they put some effort into making alternate costumes for the rest of the cast, most of which I would shell out for.

 

[Codebox]

I always wondered why the bats or trident weren't in his moveset since the tident is more of his iconic weapon that his sword. Though he used it as Ganon and not Ganondorf. The energy ball, flaming bats and levitation should've been in his moveset while still keeping in tact. He could have the same type of floating animation as Dark Samus.

 

[Deleted member]

It's when I see Ganondorf performing a literal midair jump during his battle from Wind Waker that it'd be cool for him to have his own version of Flip Jump/Bouncing Fish/Feint Jump.

 

[Jotari]

Anyone interested in more of my ideas, I did something similar for Samus over on this thread.

Redesigning Samus (but keeping her the same)

EDIT: This post was originally just about Samus's new melee attacks and how they could be used in Smash. But then I ended up redesigning her completely and it kind of became a series of topics I've started on other characters. Below the moveset is my original post. Other redesigns...

smashboards.com

 

[Jotari]

Just putting some loose ideas here. I don't think anyone is still looking at this thread, it's more for myself as I'll probably take all these ideas and try to make a video some time.
*Give him massive shield damage on his tilts and aerials. Make it so shielding against Ganondorf simply isn't an option, as it will lead to you being put in a dizzy state (which will make Warlock Punch, while not any more useful, far more satisfying). Ganondorf is already weak enough against dodging, might as well take away the entire other defensive option people having going for them.

*Give his up tilt more range. It's actually not as useless an attack as it appears to be as it has some good edge guarding capabilities. Though it's range is smaller than the explosion it generates suggests. More lateral range and the ability to cancel would make this a very good, if still niche, attack.

*Give his jab projectile reflecting properties. Projectile reflecting on a jab would not be the most useful thing in the world, as it wouldn't be possible to do while running or jumping, but it would allow Ganondorf to stand there and force projectile spammers to come to him. It would be situational, but it's greatest strength would be that other players would know he can do it, making them more wary about throwing out projectiles.

*Remove the helpless state on his Aerial Side Special. If Fox can get away without having a helpless state then Ganondorf can too. This would really help his recovery and also make him far more dangerous to edge guard against as Ganoncide is safer.

*Give him Bowser and Kazuya's Tough Guy effect so light attacks can't interrupt his momentum.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

MGK recently did a shield pressure showcase which taught me some things, and have to say his shield damage is pretty good as is.

 

[Deleted member]

I thought it was worth being shared here.

 

[Oracle Link]

Those flaming bats look kinda un-intimidating in their pixel form, but I assume that's just because it's more of a simple demonstration thing you made. They'd likely look wicked cool if given the HD animation treatment the Ultimate developers could give them. Seems like it'd be in line with Bayonetta's butterflies!

They might not look like much but they pull quite a punch especially in the Oracle Games were they can fly up and Down!

 

[Jotari]

I thought it was worth being shared here.

*This does feel like a moveset designed by someone who actually plays Ganondorf and wants him to actually feel good to play. So I wouldn't be massively upset if he became something like this (though bias and nostalgia still make me rather trident was left to specials and stuff like volcano kick remain).

*I don't think all of his smash attacks should be changed. We've only just got them and they're rather well received. True I also changed his down smash to something similar and modified his Side Smash to something quite different, but the Up Smash at least should remain. It wouldn't be a good move to give him a bunch of new smash attacks that people like in one game and then immediately remove them for the next game. And it's not like him wielding a trident would make them impossible, he could hit the same general area with a trident slash as well as with a sword.

*Seems weird he gave him a new up aerial when his current up aerial, of all his moves, would best translate into him having a trident in terms of its hitboxes.

*I can see why he'd like a new forward tilt, but of all his hand to hand moves I feel that's the one that should remain the most as it's what he does in Twilight Princess. True it's still sort of present in his down tilt, but it's not really the same.

*On the surface, I like the idea of giving all his specials a tap and charge variation and then a One Winged Angel mode that makes the charge version the default, This lets him retain his heavy attacks while also giving him quicker ones that are more viable to actually hit with.

*But.....I don't like this implemantion at all with the down special.
**For starters, replacing all the hold version with the charge version sounds great in concept, you get the powerful versions with the speed of the quick versions. But knowing intuitively how powerful and quick an attack is going to be in Smash Bros. is really important. And in some cases you might want to actually use the tap version for set ups and combos, not something Ganodnorf excels at, granted, but it's still something he can do. Upgrading his attacks so to speak actually takes away that versatility that giving him hold and tap variations provides, unless the tap variations just suck compared to the charge variations.
**More than that though it's just really weird to give him a special that is just useless when he's high on health. A character shouldn't have any special that just plain doesn't work unless you're waiting for a cool down or have already fully stocked a resource like Pikmin. I think something like that would be better if it were just straight up ripped from Sephiroth where it automatically happens after a certain amount of time/damage.
**I think the maker of the video didn't want to do that because he wanted a trade off on it with it dealing damage over time and not being able to take away the state, but that just makes it worse as a special, because if you don't value the effects of it then you have a special you're just plain never using. And what if you like the down special that replaces it ones he enters his super mode, but you can't use it without entering the mode you don't want to play as. If it's going to be a special it should be a special that can turn it on and off for selected use. Alternatively, don't make it a special and make it something that's just part of Ganondorf. He gets super strong if he survives into high %s but then starts killing himself. Not the most useful gimmick, but a unique and cool one (and if Pichu can make self damaging work, so too can Ganondorf). But this method of implementation is just the worst of all worlds.

 

[Quillion]

I thought it was worth being shared here.

Hmm, it actually shares my idea for having "tap" variants for specials. I still think it would be better off as an option for Warlock Punch rather than a weapon thrust though, since a "tap" backhand could easily implement his tendency to reflect projectiles as opposed to giving him a projectile that those entitled "faithfulness crowd" 12-year-olds want.

I can also appreciate how, for the most part, it's not another overcomplicated Smash 4-on-style revamp that a lot of people like to suggest for the 64/Melee characters. I'd still keep the Down-B though, albeit tolerating an animation change as explained below...

*I don't think all of his smash attacks should be changed. We've only just got them and they're rather well received. True I also changed his down smash to something similar and modified his Side Smash to something quite different, but the Up Smash at least should remain. It wouldn't be a good move to give him a bunch of new smash attacks that people like in one game and then immediately remove them for the next game. And it's not like him wielding a trident would make them impossible, he could hit the same general area with a trident slash as well as with a sword.

Sword Smashes plus a new trident-based animation for Warlock Kick wouldn't be too overboard IMO. Unless you're absolutely attached to the idea of Ganondorf kicking with dark magic (I don't blame you if you are though, since I've grown to really dislike Bowser's Smash 4-on animations despite his moveset functioning largely the same).

I guess his "True Power" idea could be worked better into my idea for "super specials", though. I've been mulling about having "Shield B" moves being used exclusively for non-attacking status-enhancing moves, and that could work there instead.

 

[Jotari]

Hmm, it actually shares my idea for having "tap" variants for specials. I still think it would be better off as an option for Warlock Punch rather than a weapon thrust though, since a "tap" backhand could easily implement his tendency to reflect projectiles as opposed to giving him a projectile that those entitled "faithfulness crowd" 12-year-olds want.

I can also appreciate how, for the most part, it's not another overcomplicated Smash 4-on-style revamp that a lot of people like to suggest for the 64/Melee characters. I'd still keep the Down-B though, albeit tolerating an animation change as explained below...



Sword Smashes plus a new trident-based animation for Warlock Kick wouldn't be too overboard IMO. Unless you're absolutely attached to the idea of Ganondorf kicking with dark magic (I don't blame you if you are though, since I've grown to really dislike Bowser's Smash 4-on animations despite his moveset functioning largely the same).

I guess his "True Power" idea could be worked better into my idea for "super specials", though. I've been mulling about having "Shield B" moves being used exclusively for non-attacking status-enhancing moves, and that could work there instead.

Oh I'm not overly fond of Wizard's Foot being a kick. I changed it to a trident myself in the openings posts of this thread.