Redesigning Smash 64's roster

[Butters Stotch]

There have been threads like this for the rest of the Smash games and the series as a whole, but not Smash 64 on its own, hence this thread. Rules?

• You can have a total of 12 characters; eight unique, one full clone, one semi-clone, and two mostly unique characters. You can sacrifice the semi-clone and one of the fairly unique characters for another unique character.
• The clones and mostly unique characters (you can ignore this if you're trading both Ness and Falcon's slots for one) need to reuse models and/or assets from pre-existing characters.
• Four (three for the above) characters need to be unlockable, but they don't have to be the ones above.
• The game came out in early 1999, so characters chosen must've debuted in 1998 at the absolute latest.
• No third parties are allowed, but second parties like Rare (at that time) are acceptable.
• If you want, you can list the four characters that would've been next in line to get in. Bowser, Marth, Dedede, and Mewtwo were intended to be playable.

I've posted my version of the Smash 64 roster before, but I'll do it again here:



The only characters out are Ness and Jigglypuff, with Wario and Marth taking their places. Aside from that, the only difference is that Fox is unlockable instead of Wario. Since the game's budget was low, Wario would be built off of Mario and share a few movements, so I think Fox could be added without having to reuse assets. I don't think everyone will agree with this, but Marth would reuse a lot from Link and be a semi-clone. I never would've added someone like Jigglypuff and Marth is genuinely the only potential semi-clone I can think of this without resorting to a character like Gooey or Falco or reducing the roster size for someone more distinct.

The scrapped characters would've been Bowser (initially planned over Luigi), Ness, Banjo-Kazooie, and uh... Ganondorf? Yeah, I'll stick with him.

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

My Roster is same like Smash 64.
Only Change is Marth, who replaces jigglypuff.

 

[Mamboo07]

Original 8 stays the same.

Dedede, Wario and Banjo-Kazooie would replaced Ness, Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff with Luigi staying.

(Original 8, Luigi, Dedede, B&K, and Wario)

 

[Pupp135]

I changed my mind on this a few times, but it feels like what I’d probably do if I was making a Nintendo All-Star game in the late ‘90s without prior information or Sakurai’s ideas as a template (ie: Jigglypuff as a Kirby semiclone). If I had prior information or Sakurai’s ideas, I’d just leave the roster as is.




Unlock Criteria:

• Luigi: Same as Jigglypuff’s
• Samus: Same as Ness’s
• Wario: Same as Luigi’s
• Falco: Beat Board the Platforms with all starting characters

I’ll just explain the things I’ve changed from the original roster:

• I left out Jigglypuff since Jigglypuff wouldn’t be my first thought for a semi-clone. If I had some form of foresight, I’d keep it because it is the most interesting choice for a clonelike character imo.
• I left out Captain Falcon as I wouldn’t really have thought about promoting F-Zero X at the time.
• Wario Land was the last remaining major franchise to add, and Wario‘s model can easily be based on Mario worst case scenario, so Wario joins.
• Falco joins as he’s the first clone that I’d come up with after Luigi.
• Samus is unlockable as Metroid wasn’t really relevant at the time, but I‘m keeping Samus as she is one of gaming’s first mainstream playable female protagonists.

If I had time for four more fighters, I’ll go with Marth, Bowser, Diddy Kong, and Peach, but if I’m bring honest, Marth and Bowser are the only ones that I’d want to bring in.

For fun, I’ll make a stage list below, and make explanations for changes.

Spoiler: Stages

Mushroom Kingdom: starting stage as it’s more memorable than Peach’s Castle
Kongo Jungle
Hyrule Castle
Crateria*: the starting area of Super Metroid
Super Happy Tree
Dream Land
Sector Z
Pokemon Stadium: going with a more general stage for Pokemon
Onett: I don’t think I would’ve given Mario two stages since Ness would be in my initial plan.
Metal Cavern*
Duel Zone*
Final Destination*
The four stages with asterisks are all unlockable (Crateria is unlocked when 1P game is completed with Samus, Metal Cavern is unlocked when 1P Game is completed with the secret fighters, Duel Zone has Mushroom Kingdom’s, and Final Destination is unlocked when 1P game is completed on Very Hard)

 

[HyperSomari64]

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Samus (as she is) is swapped for Duck Hunt.

The mostly unique fighters are Ness and Wario. Wario takes certain moves and animations from DK, albeit edited to fit his pudgy upright posture.

The semi-clone is Muddy Mole, having different special moves but taking most normals from Pikachu.

The full clone is Samus, of Fox.

The unlockable fighters are

1. Samus - Clear Classic on Very Hard
2. Ness - Clear Classic on any difficulty with every fighter
3. Duck Hunt - Clear all starter Target Test levels
4. Muddy - Clear Classic Mode once

Wario therefore becomes a starter

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

Samus (as she is) is swapped for Duck Hunt.

The mostly unique fighters are Ness and Wario. Just as Ness does, Wario takes certain moves from Mario.

The semi-clone is Muddy Mole, having different special moves but taking most normals from Pikachu.

The full clone is Samus, of Fox.

The unlockable fighters are

1. Samus - Clear Classic on Very Hard
2. Ness - Clear Classic on any difficulty with every fighter
3. Duck Hunt - Clear all starter Target Test levels
4. Muddy - Clear Classic Mode once

Nice concept, but isn't Muddy too obscure to be added?
(I'm asking tho)

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Well, here's my thinking.




I've got a couple of changes, but let me explain in detail.

Spoiler: The Unchanged Fighters

Mario
The thing is, Mario has to remain. He's not only an icon of Nintendo, but of gaming as a whole! However, I'm going to suggest that in this game, his moveset is based on a fusion of Super Mario 64 with elements of Super Mario World. SM64 was a landmark title, and as with how Link is seen (which I'll get into soon!), this is a logical way to handle Mario.

Donkey Kong
Donkey Kong is a heavy-hitter, but I think it would be a good idea in this case to base his appearance from the Donkey Kong Country titles as opposed to DK64. The main reason is simple - DK64 was released pretty close to Smash, and with hindsight goggles, it... wasn't very well recieved. Even so, having him as a heavyweight grappler balances out the roster archetypes a little.

Link
Link, of course, is based on his Ocarina of Time appearance. With OoT being as popular and important as it was, even at the time, it makes sense to use that as the basis for what Link, well, is. Even so, I'd like to point out that his Boomerang is replaced with the Bow, which better reflects his appearance in the game in question (Adult Link is unable to use the Boomerang.) It would work well as a Side-B to be introduced in Melee, though!

Samus
This is a good example of a time where we can really stretch our creative muscles. Famously, Samus's playstyle is seen by many to be a poor representation of her appearance in the Metroid series, which I agree with. As such, however, I think it would be a good idea to have a few changes. First up, her down special would allow her to enter Morph Ball mode, which allows her to plant multiple bombs and roll around and the like. Also, Charge Shot is replaced with Ice Beam. Lastly, she's actually a bit faster, but not too much, as well as being a little floatier.

Yoshi
Yoshi is actually pretty good here. As seen originally, his style is based on a fusion of Yoshi's Island as well as Yoshi's Story. It works well, and Yoshi being a light character with a couple of ranged attacks with Egg Throw and his grab, works well.

Kirby
Perhaps a weird choice, but Sakurai bias. Not only this - but Kirby is actually still somewhat of a Nintendo icon in this period of time. However, it's not going to be possible to take inspiration from Kirby 64, not only because of it's release date being after Smash 64, but also because Sakurai only provided voice acting, meaning that he would be unable to provide inside information. However, I'll suggest that Kirby is mostly based on Kirby Super Star.

Fox
Again, a logical pick here. StarFox 64 was well-recieved, as was StarFox on the SNES, so it makes sense to have him here for the time. His fast, aggressive playstyle works well, and I quite like his overall design and the like, so it can stay.

Pikachu
Poke-Fever. Need I say more. That aside, Pikachu is a good choice as a rapid rushdown character works well, and Pokemon being as popular as it was at the time makes it absolutely essential that Pikachu makes it in.

Ness
Ness is seen by many as a weird pick. After all, EarthBound wasn't popular in the West... but you have to remember, Mother was still a popular series, and Mother 3 for the N64 was in development... with Iwata at the helm. Iwata may have requested Ness's inclusion, and Ness being so unique as a character makes him a logical choice.

Captain Falcon
With Falcon's model being taken from early development, this makes sense. It's also key to note that F-Zero was a very popular launch title for SNES, and F-Zero X was still doing pretty well overall - and for this reason, it makes sense to see him here. I also love that his moveset is so risk-reward.

Spoiler: The Alterations

Bowser
A very important addition, that is, a villain. I think Bowser would work well to replace the heavy archetypes seen in DK and, to an extent, Samus, which balances archetypes. Not only this, but Bowser is a Mario villain, meaning that he's essentially a shoe-in. Whilst Luigi makes a lot of sense to include, I think it would be interesting to see him in Melee simply because of the existance of Luigi's Mansion - and Bowser... has a more unique archetype. In terms of his creation, however, he actually shares a surprising amount of normal moves with DK, with only certain ones being unique for his body type.

Mewtwo
I felt a second Pokemon rep was essential. However, Jigglypuff - whilst popular - couldn't hold a candle to Mewtwo. Being the main villain of the first movie released in 1997, as well as a legendary seen in Gen I, Mewtwo is a bizarre, but unique, addition due to its lightweight but large nature. Notably, I think it could get away with reusing certain moves - for instance, Ness's down special, but reflecting as opposed to absorbing.

 

[Butters Stotch]

Bowser
A very important addition, that is, a villain. I think Bowser would work well to replace the heavy archetypes seen in DK and, to an extent, Samus, which balances archetypes. Not only this, but Bowser is a Mario villain, meaning that he's essentially a shoe-in. Whilst Luigi makes a lot of sense to include, I think it would be interesting to see him in Melee simply because of the existance of Luigi's Mansion - and Bowser... has a more unique archetype. In terms of his creation, however, he actually shares a surprising amount of normal moves with DK, with only certain ones being unique for his body type.

I heard that Sakurai wasn't aware of Luigi's Mansion until later into development, so in an alternate reality, he may've gotten a Poltergust attack in Melee. I wonder what his Final Smash would be in this scenario; the return of the Negative Zone or, dare I say, Mr. L?

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I heard that Sakurai wasn't aware of Luigi's Mansion until later into development, so in an alternate reality, he may've gotten a Poltergust attack in Melee. I wonder what his Final Smash would be in this scenario; the return of the Negative Zone or, dare I say, Mr. L?

Personally, I like to imagine that Luigi's grab could well have been the Poltergust. (and maybe they'd fix his dash attack given he's a new character in this "timeline"?) Even so, the fact that Final Smashes came about in Brawl would probably mean that the Poltergust came about as opposed to the Negative Zone. (To be honest... I still don't know where the Negative Zone came from - but I'm willing to be educated! :D)

 

[Butters Stotch]

(To be honest... I still don't know where the Negative Zone came from - but I'm willing to be educated! :D)

I don't know either. I don't recall seeing it outside of Brawl, so it may've been made up by Sakurai. I think it's a nice metaphor for how Luigi is always in Mario's shadow.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I don't know either. I don't recall seeing it outside of Brawl, so it may've been made up by Sakurai. I think it's a nice metaphor for how Luigi is always in Mario's shadow.

I think it's quite cool too! To be honest, I think that a lot of Smash-original content gets a bad rep. In a lot of circumstances, I get that it would be better to actually represent something from a character's history, but I also think that Smash-original additions are cool too. After all, we wouldn't have had Dark Pit in Kid Icarus Uprising if not for an alt in Brawl! :D

 

[Butters Stotch]

Here are some threads that cover later installments if you're interested:
SSB64 and "Sequel" Redone Roster Ideas by Pupp135
You are Sakurai in 1999, what becomes your roster input for 64 and later installments? by Dee Dude

 

[Perkilator]

Characters​

Luigi​	Mario​	Donkey Kong​	Link​	Samus​	Captain Falcon​
Ness​	Yoshi​	Kirby​	Fox​	Pikachu​	Meowth​

Stages​

Mushroom Kingdom​	Kongo Jungle​	Hyrule Castle​	Planet Zebes​	Super Happy Tree​
Green Greens​	Great Fox​	Saffron City​	Magicant​	Mute City SNES​
​	Meta Crystal​	Duel Zone​	Final Destination​	​

 

[DragonRobotKing26]

Here's my version of Smash 64 roster

1. Mario (Super Mario Bros.)
2. Donkey Kong (Donkey Kong Country)
3. Link (The Legend of Zelda)
4. Samus (Metroid)
5. Yoshi (Yoshi's Island)
6. Kirby (Kirby)
7. Fox McCloud (Star Fox)
8. Pikachu (Pokémon)
9. Duck Hunt Duo (Duck Hunt)
10. Marth (Fire Emblem)
11. Ness (EarthBound)
12. Captain Falcon (F-Zero)

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I feel like I might as well take a crack at this one too, given it's been a couple of years since I actually got the opportunity to look at it. It's a fun concept, so I reckon it's pretty reasonable to go with. Unlike some takes here, my main priority is in variety - ideally, I don't want to overrepresent certain genres if possible, whilst also providing some more unusual concepts and ideas that'd work at least decently.

Super Smash Bros.
First things first, the base roster for this game is already honestly pretty decent, but I would personally suggest a few changes - some of which I imagine will be a little on the controversial side. That being said, I think they're reasonable. Another note is that the design document from the very beginning is intended to outline a total of 12 characters, meaning there'll be no outright clones in this game. That being said, some characters may share minor elements here and there.

(Italics indicate unlockables.)

Bowser​	Mario​	Donkey Kong​	Link​	Pikachu​	Charizard​
Paula​	Kirby​	Samus​	Fox​	Marth​	Captain Falcon​

Okay, a few odd decisions here... but let me explain myself.

• Mario obviously sticks around, with his main vibe being based on Super Mario 64 for the most part. I think he's handled pretty well as is, honestly!
• Donkey Kong is predominantly inspired by the Donkey Kong Country series as opposed to the original arcade games. For that matter, no, I'm not giving him a projectile - neither the infamous Coconut Gun or a Barrel.
• Link is inspired by Ocarina of Time, featuring items from that game. In keeping with this, his Boomerang is replaced with a Bow, and he now has a taunt in which he plays on the Ocarina itself.
• Pikachu was also handled pretty well here, plus it's more than warranted as a Pokémon rep, so I think it can stick around.
• Kirby returns, with many of his attacks being pulled from different Copy Abilities. Otherwise though, I think he's handled well here.
• Samus is also back as the Metroid rep, being predominantly based on her appearance in Super Metroid. She's a little faster and less "the ranged character" here, representing Metroid's gameplay a little better.
• Fox is also here, and I think his Smash moveset is pretty much fine as-is.
• Marth is a newcomer, but one who makes sense - the Fire Emblem series was decently popular in Japan at this time, plus he's a rep for strategy games which is pretty neat. I'd say his main "gimmick" is that his specials have him summon in characters from Shadow Dragon to perform unique attacks befitting of their class. Obviously, future Fire Emblem characters wouldn't have this, and maybe Marth himself would have this taken away in the future.

And, as for unlockables,

• Charizard is a box-art Pokémon and an obvious rep for the series, being one of the most iconic things from the series as a whole, as well as being a much-needed heavyweight that I think would work well here.
• Captain Falcon retains his general vibe, but I'd lean even more into the "pro-wrestling" sort of vibe for him. I've heard the F-Zero series described as akin to wrestling in how its character designs and worldbuilding are handled, and I think that'd be cool to represent.
• Bowser is another heavyweight, a second Mario series character, and makes a lot of sense for his iconic nature. Not many notes here - his moveset from Melee being mostly backported seems fine enough to me.
• Paula is picked over Ness due to her ability to act as a more "mage-like" character, using PSI abilities more than Ness overall and having more ranged tools, as well as putting less focus on physical weapons like the bat or yo-yo.

Well, this is a weird start... and where are;

• Yoshi is in a weird spot where I feel like he's warranted, but at the same time, being another "Mario spin-off series" character in a roster that already has Donkey Kong and two actual Mario reps made him a logical exclusion. He'd be added in my take on Melee, getting his own dedicated series.
• Luigi is effectively replaced with Bowser purely because we don't need clones here and I think Bowser is kind of more warranted. Again though, he seems like an obvious Melee consideration.
• Ness got cut and replaced with Paula, like I mentioned earlier. Ness feels like he might be more fun to include in, say, Brawl - with more focus on the weapons from EarthBound like the yo-yo and baseball bat, mixed in with a little PSI for flair, to give him a unique vibe compared to Paula.
• Jigglypuff is undeniably cool for the era, and I think it would work well as a fighter, but Charizard just makes infinitely more sense if we're not cloning anyone here.

Honourable mentions go to Lip, who came close to edging out an unlockable slot but missed out to Paula, and Leif, who I briefly considered including over Marth before going with the more obvious conclusion.

With this in mind, we'd also need an updated stage list. That'd look like...

Peach's Castle​	Kongo Jungle​	Kokiri Forest​	Saffron City​	Bowser's Castle​
Butter Building​	Upper Brinstar​	Corneria​	Altea​	Metal Cavern​

I've made a few changes here too, including giving every stage two tracks instead of one. (The one which plays is determined at random, at a roughly 70/30 split.) Let's take a look.

• Peach's Castle is now more closely inspired from Super Mario 64, though the platforms more closely resemble traditional Mario blocks, and the layout itself has changed somewhat. Toads run around on the background layer.
  • Ground - Super Mario Bros. (Remix)
  • Main Theme - Super Mario 64 (Gamerip)
• Kongo Jungle mostly remains the same, though I'd personally opt to include a texture of different Kongs occasionally watching the match. (Probably Diddy, Cranky, and Funky.) They appear at random times.
  • DK Island Swing - Donkey Kong Country (Remix)
  • Map Page - Donkey Kong Country (Remix)
• Kokiri Forest replaces Hyrule Castle, mostly because I'd like for there to be more variety in stage appearances. It's set in the small village, with the Great Deku Tree in the distance.
  • Main Theme - The Legend of Zelda (Remix)
  • Lost Woods - The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (Gamerip)
• Saffron City mostly remains the same. I'd even keep the different Pokémon, actually!
  • Main Theme - Pokémon Red & Blue (Remix)
  • Free Battle - Pokémon Stadium (Gamerip)
• Butter Building replaces Dream Land because I think it'd be more unique compared to another "grassy fields first level" type stage. In terms of appearance, it's similar to that seen in Kirby Fighters 2, with its textures pulling directly from the sprites used in Kirby's Adventure.
  • Butter Building - Kirby's Adventure (Remix)
  • Gourmet Race - Kirby Super Star (Remix)
• Upper Brinstar replaces Planet Zebes and is more closely based on the zone of the same name in Super Metroid, being dingy and mostly made up of foliage - plus featuring some minor Metroid enemies that float across the background.
  • Brinstar - Metroid (Remix)
  • Theme of Super Metroid - Super Metroid (Remix)
• Corneria replaces Sector Z, but in practice, this only makes the Great Fox a little smaller and replaces the background. It's otherwise the same.
  • Corneria - Star Fox (Remix)
  • Area 6 - Star Fox 64 (Gamerip)
• Altea is a new stage based on Marth's home kingdom in Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light. The stage itself takes place in a medival-looking town, atop different thatched roofs. A large castle is visible in the distance.
  • Opening Theme - Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light (Remix)
  • Story 5 - Encounter - Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light (Remix)
• Bowser's Castle replaces Mushroom Kingdom, but is uniquely based on the castle stages in Super Mario Bros, featuring hazards like Fire Bars and Podoboos as well as a lava pit. Not much else to add, otherwise - the unlock criteria is still the same.
  • Castle and Castle (Hurry!) - Super Mario Bros. (Gamerip)
  • Bowser's Road - Super Mario 64 (Gamerip)
• Metal Cavern is unlockable! You unlock it after completing Classic Mode on Very Hard difficulty.
  • Metal Mario Fight - Super Smash Bros. (New)
  • Fighting Polygons Fight - Super Smash Bros. (New)