Redesigning/Rebalancing Sheik

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Aug 9, 2015
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Mini-Redesign/Rebalance Threads

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Oh man, this is my first redesign thread with a top tier character in Smash 4. Note that while a lot of this thread will be nerfs, it will be what I would call, "respectable" nerfs. As in, the main focuses and purpose of playing Sheik will still be intact, just with a few more glaring weaknesses added in that don't compromise said playstyle, as well as a few move additions. And this is why I always have an outline for what I want characters' strengths and weaknesses should be, and I feel any designer should do the same. This way they have a bit of cohesion in their changes should they be too strong, instead of just taking away their good combos in patches when they are a combo-centric character to begin with (WINK-WINK).

Speaking of the outline, let's see Sheik's...

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Like with all of my "rebalancing" exercises, I will showcase what I believe the character's purposes should be overall, as well as the strengths and weaknesses they should have.

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Sheik :ultsheik:

Purpose: High pressure/Amazing comboer/Horrible defense/Low power

Strengths should be:

Fast attacks
Great approach
Good shield pressure
Heavy combo ability
Great tech chase ability

Weaknesses should be:

Low overall damage
Low kill power
Extremely low priority
Lackluster neutral
Easy to kill and juggle
Lackluster recovery

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Some general stats for Sheik; these are mostly relative, and will involve universal additions as well, like with all of my rebalance threads.

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General Statistics: :ultsheik:

  • Light weight
    • (Note that weight difference should be much tighter overall, so Sheik will definitely get a weight buff)
  • High walk speed
  • High run speed
    • (Walk speed and run speed would be more compacted for the slowest and fastest characters)
  • Above average horizontal airspeed
  • Standardized first jump
    • (All first jumps for all characters will be the same height: around 80% the height of the top platform in Battlefield)
  • Low double jump height
    • (Baseline for double jump will be lower than it is now, but varied between characters: Sheik's new jump height would be about 50% of her current double jump height in Smash 4)
  • High fall speed
  • High fast fall speed
  • Wall Cling (All characters will be able to wall jump, but not all can wall cling)
  • Can crawl
  • Extremely low roll distance
    • (All characters will have the same frame data on rolls, with the only real variance between them being distance)
  • Extremely low shield health
    • (Shield health would now differ between characters, with the baseline being 100 shield health. Sheik's would have 75)
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So some nerfs in the stats department. Overall, Sheik's lateral movement will be untouched, leaving her as one of the fastest characters in the game when talking horizontally, solidifying her good approach. However, her double jump height will take a hit, both because of the universal nerf, and because she is meant to be awful at leaving disadvantage, meaning jumping out of a combo is not feasible. Note that despite this, a lot of her vertical based combo moves will be changed to reflect this, so she can keep up in an advantage state, where she shines.

The last two of notice are the lower roll distance and shield health. As of this point, Sheik has the lowest prospective shield health of any character I've gone over thus far, with Pichu being the close second at 85. Unlike Pichu, where it's like that to signify he should be harassing more than defending, this is purely to make Sheik forced to sparingly use shields against enemies and hope desperately for a good perfect shield turnaround (though there are ways around this), again, going back to bad defense.

Lastly is the lower roll distance, making her less like my rendition of Roy or Little Mac as a counter centric fighter and simply meant to be poor and sparingly used. Luckily, this gives her more chances to use her dodges for other reasons, but overall, her ground game has very low defense, and when we get to aerials, you'll see this weakness of low defense will be solidified.

So it seems bad so far. Hopefully I haven't pissed off too many Sheik mains. Hopefully they keep going, because believe it or not, I have some cool ideas for Sheik later on.

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:GCA::GCA::GCA::GCA::GCA::GCA: Jab:

  • New sequence: Two knifehand strikes followed by a knee strike, then roundhouse kick, then multiple knifehand strikes, and finished with a palm thrust. Multiple knifehand strike portion is a rapid jab
    • Rapid jab finisher can be manually executed or ignored completely even when enemy is hit
      • This means Jab 3 and Jab 4 are new moves and rapid jab finisher is separate from the rapid jab, making it technically Jab 6
    • All hits have a high SDI factor
  • Extremely low priority on Jab 1, 2, 3, and 4
    • High priority on rapid jab and Jab 6
  • Extremely low startup
  • Extremely low endlag on Jab 1, 2, 3, 4 and rapid jab
    • High endlag for Jab 6
  • Very low shield damage on Jab 1, 2, 3, 4 and rapid jab
    • Above average shield damage on Jab 6
  • Safe on shield for Jab 1, 2, 3, and 4
    • Barely unsafe on shield for rapid jab
    • Unsafe on shield for Jab 6
  • Knockback on final hit is sideways at 25 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Jab 1: 1.0%
    • Jab 2: 1.2%
    • Jab 3: 1.7%
    • Jab 4: 1.9%
    • Rapid jab: 0.4% * 3 per second
    • Jab 6: 6.5%
    • Minimum total: 13.5%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Jab 6: 320%

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This seems like a conglomeration of weird ideas, but follow my logic if you can.

I wanted Sheik's jab to fit with her weakness of not having a good defense, but still wanted it to be quick and good at shield pressure as well as actually buffing it to be a good combo move instead of only as a combo finisher. So what I did was turn it into more of a mindgame tool in the neutral and in advantage with the two extra hits before the rapid jab, making it difficult to gauge when you need to perfect shield to escape Sheik's onslaught, and for the latter, I made it so even the rapid jab is not forced into the laggy finisher so Sheik can continue her combos/strings if she feels like it.

However, I wanted to make it bad at defense, but also still give Sheik SOME kind of anti-approach option in the form of a move, since I want all characters to have a minimum amount of specific tools to work with whatever the game throws at them. So my idea here was that the rapid jab can be used as a "walling" tool by giving it high priority so it can't be challenged easily. You just have to get through the first four hits to get this option (which is another reason why I added those extra two hits), which still makes it a bit hard to use and still fits in with Sheik's defense weakness, but doesn't take out the option entirely. And as an added bonus, you can just not use the final finisher, so changing from walling to offense is not a problem.

But you might ask why you would ever use the rapid jab finisher if it's so laggy. Well I thought of that too, because now the finisher has most of the jab's overall damage tied to it AND it has respectable shield damage which is a rarity in Sheik's moveset AND unlike a lot of Sheik's moveset which angles upwards for combos, this move is mostly for tech chases and edgeguarding due to the low angle. As an extra incentive to use this finisher, the move overall has high SDI, making it unreliable to a certain point in terms of how long you can keep them in the full jab. But again, you can cancel the move after every hit, so this furthers its potential as a mindgame tool.

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:GCR::GCA: FTilt:

  • A roundhouse kick
  • Extremely low priority
  • Very low startup
  • Very low endlag
  • Knockback is upwards at 80 degrees
  • Base knockback is very low to allow for combos
  • Unsafe on shield
  • Extremely low shield damage
  • Knocks back shielded opponents very slightly
  • Approximate damage numbers: 3.1%
  • Approximate kill time: 420%

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Ah, the premier comboing move that has achieved meme status along with FAir. It's also a nice out of shield option, one of the few Sheik has. However, some downsides include being unsafe on shield despite its speed, meaning even if you want to use it OOS, you better make sure the enemy used a slow move, else they will simply flash shield and you will be assaulted again before the next kick. The damage is also nerfed.

However, the combo potential for this move is still very high, and unlike a lot of Sheik's other combo-centric moves that you will soon see, there isn't a higher DI deviation on hit to allow the opponent to trick you. If they DI in, you got BAir, FTilt again, or even USmash and UTilt. If they DI out, you have FAir, NAir, Needle Storm (you'll see why), and maybe even a slight run into USmash. Plenty of ways to go.

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:GCU::GCA: UTilt:

  • An upwards kick followed by an axe kick. Hits two times
  • Extremely low priority on both hits
  • Slightly high DI deviation
  • Very low startup
  • Low endlag
  • Very low shield damage on first hit
    • Above average shield damage on second hit
  • Barely unsafe on shield for both hits
  • Knockback on second hit is upwards at 70 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • First hit: 3.5%
    • Second hit: 6.5%
    • Total: 10.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Second hit: 300%

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So this move still has the general weakness of Sheik's moves in that it is very easy to challenge and despite its nice combo ability, which is buffed due to the higher angle and slightly lower knockback scaling, it has a higher than average DI deviation, meaning more reads will be needed during combos. It also has a slight damage nerf.

Where this move shines compared to Sheik's other moves it the actually respectable shield damage it does, making this a fine shield breaker during pressure, or just a move the enemy might not prepare for when Sheik is whittling away during her shield pressure. However, if the first hit doesn't land, this can make it easy for the opponent to perfect shield. Luckily the first hit will combo into the second even on shield, so hitting the admittedly hard to hit first hit will ensure the high shield damage of the second. Overall, a nice shield pressure and combo tool.

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:GCD::GCA: DTilt:

  • A low sweep. Sheik will lean outward when kicking
  • Above average range for Sheik
  • Extremely low priority
  • Very low startup
  • Average endlag
  • Knockback is upwards at 70 degrees
  • High DI deviation
  • Base knockback is low to allow for combos
  • Barely safe on shield
  • Very low shield damage
  • Approximate damage numbers: 4.4%
  • Approximate kill time: 400%

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A good combo starter and combo tool in general. It also is good for poking shields since it is safe. The only real big changes are the slightly higher endlag, higher range, and lowered damage. The higher range in particular makes this a very good way to crouch and hit an enemy that is attacking from the air, giving some form of defense to Sheik, however small, through simply using her low crouch to her advantage.

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:GCR::GCR::GCA: Dash Attack:

  • A lunging double knifehand strike. Has an early sweetspot and late sourspot. Destroys projectiles throughout the move
    • (Projectile destruction is a universal aspect of all dash attacks)
  • Extremely low priority
  • Very low startup
  • Very high endlag
  • Cannot crossup shields
  • Average shield damage on both sweetspot and sourspot
  • Barely safe on shield for both sweetspot and sourspot
  • Knockback on both sweetspot and sourspot is upwards at 55 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Sweetspot: 9.3%
    • Sourspot: 6.5%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sweetspot: 195%
    • Sourspot: 220%

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So I decided to go a different route for Sheik's dash attack. I think it would be best used as both a safe on shield approach tool to simply catch people's waffling neutral walking patterns of dash dancing, as well as a finisher of a combo that also doubles as a stage controller. Because of this change, I decided to up the damage of it as well as increase the endlag of the move slightly, so tentative opponents can still sidestep if needed.

A cool little feature is the inability to crossup shields, similar to Fox Illusion in Ultimate right now. This would be bad if it wasn't for the fact this is safe on shield, giving it some pressure ability. However, they can still end up dodging it and punishing you should they roll forward or sidestep out of shield.

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:GCCR::GCCR: FSmash:

  • New sequence: A double pronged forward kick combo. Has two individual parts that can be used one after the other
    • Can delay the second attack
  • Extremely low priority on first hit
    • Above average priority on second hit
  • Average startup
  • Average endlag on both hits
  • Knockback for first hit is sideways at 40 degrees
  • Knockback for second hit is at the Sakurai angle
  • Below average shield damage
  • First hit is barely unsafe on shield
  • Second hit is barely safe on shield
  • First hit cannot crossup shields
    • Second hit can
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • First hit: 6.2%-8.7%
    • Second hit: 6.3%-8.8%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • First hit: 205%-155%
    • Second hit: 165%-115%

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So this got quite an overhaul. I told you guys that despite me nerfing Sheik, I would still give her some new stuff to play with.

The first thing I want to mention is that my usual system with charging smash attacks is that the KO potential goes up by about 30% difference usually. This is just an estimation, but I think 30% more KO potential is worth the charge. However, I also want all characters to be able to kill at reasonable percents, or at least be able to do so, and despite her premier weakness being "terrible at closing stocks", I want the same for Sheik.

In the spirit of compromise, all of Sheik's smash attacks will get a much higher than average kill potential increase if you charge them. This still makes her killing based around reads, but it also makes charging up her smash attacks actually mean something to her. This way, I can keep her poor kill potential intact while still hiding some regular kill potential within.

Funny how I prioritized that over the ability to do two separate attacks, which is the real new thing.

So the first hit is barely unsafe on shield, meaning it's good at shield pressure and regaining neutral. It still has a horrible priority and the startup would be increased a smidge, so don't think it's for general anti-approach. However, the second hit can now be manually done to trick the opponent, since this move actually has respectable priority and can crossup shields, making it harder for the enemy to figure out where Sheik will end up.

This also opens up the ability to trick the opponent by simply doing the less safe first hit without the second, to maybe bait a retaliatory hit OOS. While Sheik most likely won't be able to directly challenge it, she can still mess with the opponent regardless.

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:GCCU: USmash:

  • The "diamond cutter" strike overhead. Has an early and late hitbox. Late hitbox is on both sides of Sheik and early is above her
    • Removed intangibility on arms
  • Above average priority on early hitbox
  • Extremely low priority on late hitbox
  • Low startup
  • Above average endlag
  • High hitstun
  • Very high DI deviation
  • Base knockback is low to allow for combos
  • Knockback for early hit is exactly upwards at 90 degrees
    • Knockback for late hit is at the Sakurai angle
  • Average shield damage for both hits
  • Safe on shield for early hitbox
    • Barely unsafe on shield for late hitbox
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Early: 15.0%-21.0%
    • Late: 9.8%-13.7%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Early: 180%-130%
    • Late: 220%-170%

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So this smash attack would be the anti-air, and despite the lower defense on Sheik, it would still work as such. The intangibility on the arms would be removed, but the priority is respectable, meaning while it won't stuff out most dedicated landing options, it can at least still go toe to toe with more commonly used moves.

The cool thing about this move is that if you actually manage to hit the main hitbox above on a shield, it will be completely safe, again working towards the great approach of Sheik. However, the later hitbox will be barely unsafe, meaning while Sheik can still get out via movement, she won't get a safe followup.

However, the real kicker with this is the high hitstun and DI deviation, making this a combo move for reads, if that makes sense. Note that if I were in charge, I would change the DI deviation drastically to even above Melee's level of 17 degrees to maybe about 20 degrees by default. With the higher deviation on this move, that would probably increase to about 35 degrees, making this terrible at killing, but great in that the enemy is committed to a direction that with the high hitstun, Sheik can exploit as she sees fit.

The damage on the main hitbox is unchanged because I don't see the need to reduce it, despite Sheik's weakness of low damage, since this isn't exactly the best at range. The late hitbox has gotten a damage nerf though and changed to Sakurai angle, making it worse overall at early percents.

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:GCCD: DSmash:

  • A windmill kick. Hits four times with different hitboxes in both directions
  • Above average priority
  • Average startup
  • Above average endlag
  • Very low shield damage for all hits
  • Barely safe on shield
  • Knockback angle is at the Sakurai angle for all hits
  • Approximate damage numbers (Front / Back):
    • Hit 1: 6.0%-8.4% / 6.5%-9.1%
    • Hit 2: 5.0%-7.0% / 6.2%-8.7%
    • Hit 3: 4.5%-6.3% / 5.9%-8.3%
    • Hit 4: 4.0%-5.6% / 5.5%-7.7%
  • Approximate kill times (Front / Back):
    • Hit 1: 220%-170% / 200%-150%
    • Hit 2: 240%-190% / 210%-160%
    • Hit 3: 250%-200% / 220%-170%
    • Hit 4: 255%-205% / 225%-175%

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The main point of this smash attack is twofold: firstly, with the extra hitboxes, it lasts quite a while, and has high priority, making it in the same vein as Sheik's rapid jab, an anti-approach, albeit slightly unsafe on whiff. If you feel the enemy is coming in, just bust this out. It is slightly punishable on whiff though.

The second purpose is to make tech chases, since it hits at the Sakurai angle, meaning it will trip or make the enemy prone quite often. It sort of has a smaller purpose of shield pressure, since it is now safe on shield, if only by a bit, enough to continue shield pressure. As always with Sheik though, it doesn't deal much shield damage, so it isn't too strong in that scenario.

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:GCX::GCA: NAir:

  • A flying sex kick. Has an early and late hitbox
    • Increased range on early hitbox
    • Late hitbox loses significant range compared to early hitbox
  • Lingering hitbox
    • (Less lingering frames than present)
  • Extremely low priority
  • Extremely low startup
  • Low endlag
  • Very low landing lag
  • Barely safe on shield
  • Extremely low shield damage
  • Knockback is upwards at 50 degrees
  • Base knockback is very low to allow for easy combos
  • High DI deviation
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Early: 6.0%
    • Late: 4.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Early: 400%
    • Late: 600%

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So the main idea for this move in my head is to be a sort of quick jump "catcher"; as in, when pressuring either on shield or on the ledge, this move is great for getting people into an easy to combo position with the slight increased range on its early hitbox. However, the lingering aspect of this move is weakened, since the late hitbox not only lasts for a shorter time, but loses range compared to what it is now. Again, these range changes won't be too big a deal overall, just gives a clearer purpose for this lingering move compared to something like BAir.

The growing trend with Sheik's moves continues as this has extremely low priority and lowered damage, making it almost useless at combo breaking now, and the lower hitbox duration makes it a tad worse at landing safely, especially against aggressive opponents. However, using this against scared opponents is still great and can still be used to approach at least a tiny bit as it is safe on shield to the point of being able to pressure shield.

Now it might seem bleak for this move, but the big buff to it is that it is no longer at the Sakurai angle, meaning if you actually land it on grounded opponents, which granted is much harder overall, you will be rewarded with a guaranteed upwards knock back perfect for starting combos no matter where the opponent is or where their percentage is.

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:GCX::GCR::GCA: FAir:

  • A downwards knifehand strike
  • Very low range
  • Very low startup
  • Average endlag
  • Very low landing lag
  • Very high DI deviation
  • Very low shield damage
  • Barely safe on shield
  • Extremely low priority
  • Knockback angle is upwards at 65 degrees
  • Base knockback very low to allow for combos
  • Approximate damage numbers: 3.7%
  • Approximate kill time: 380%

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Sheik's other infamous move. To make it good at approaching, it is still safe on shield, making it a good thing to throw out should the enemy be nervous. However, it has pitiful priority and the endlag in the air is a bit higher, so general spacing with it is not a good idea, making it meh in neutral. It still has a good angle and low knockback, however, the DI deviation means it won't combo into itself very easily anymore, leading to having to be creative with your air combos. Still doable, just not as simple.

Lastly, it has a damage nerf and a removal of sweetspot/sourspot to make it more streamlined.

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:GCX::GCL::GCA: BAir:

  • High angle back kick. Has an early hitbox and late hitbox
  • Heavy lingering hitbox
  • Extremely low priority
  • Extremely low startup
  • Below average endlag
  • Average landing lag
  • Below average shield damage for both hitboxes
  • Very safe on shield for early hitbox
  • Barely safe on shield for late hitbox
  • Knockback for both hitboxes is at the Sakurai angle
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Early: 6.5%
    • Late: 5.8%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Early: 200%
    • Late: 240%

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Very similar to NAir, with a few added benefits and weaknesses. Starting with weaknesses, this is at the Sakurai angle still, so at later percents, you probably won't get too many combos. However, it can lead to tech chases. This also has higher landing lag to make sure it isn't too good at just spacing out the opponent defensively with shorthop, since Sheik isn't about that, but still short enough to combo with it.

The strengths compared to NAir come with the lingering hitbox and hitting shield. This move, when hitting a shield early, has enough shieldstun to allow for stuff like grabs. Also, with the shortening of the hitbox duration on NAir, this one would have a longer hitbox duration, making it good at catching DI attempts with the combination of jumping and fastfalling. It also has slightly more damage than NAir.

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:GCX::GCU::GCA: UAir:

  • A vertical corkscrew kick. Hits 5 times
    • Enemies caught will lock to Sheik's trajectory
    • If Sheik lands before the final hit, the enemy will be knocked away at a different angle
  • Extremely low priority
  • Extremely low startup
  • Very low endlag
  • Average landing lag
  • Knockback on final hit is upwards at 80 degrees
    • Knockback on multihit when hitting the ground is upwards at 50 degrees
  • Very low shield damage
  • Barely unsafe on shield
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Multihit: 1.3% * 4
    • Final hit: 3.2%
    • Total: 8.4%
  • Approximate kill time:
    • Final hit: 320%

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Some changes to be more in line with the Smash 4 release UAir where it had 5 hits instead of 4. The landing lag would be a bit higher than Sheik's usual, but a cool change involves the difference in angle if you land this move with the multihit still going or not. If you do, the angle is a bit outwards, whereas final hit confirmation will go upwards. And since the enemy autolocks to Sheik's trajectory, this means she can play a bit of trickery in her combos with two different angles of knockback. The move itself also gets its overall damage buffed comparative to Smash 4 release too.

The downsides of this move are both the heavy landing lag, meaning if you don't drag the enemy down it is liable to be whiff punished, and its slight lack of safety on shield, meaning even if you hit them in shield, you won't be getting shield pressure done, making this a poor approach option.

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:GCX::GCD::GCA: DAir:

  • A flying kick that goes downwards after a brief delay. Can change horizontal trajectory. Kick will trap opponents to Sheik's trajectory and deal multiple hits. Has a small shockwave on landing
    • Deviation of kick is about 25 degrees in both directions
      • Main angle of kick is now 90 degrees downward
    • Landing hitbox is untechable
    • Shockwave on landing is about 2 Sheik widths
  • High priority
  • High hitstun
  • High startup
  • High endlag
  • High shield damage on landing
  • Very low shield damage on kick and shockwave
  • Unsafe on shield on both landing and shockwave
  • Shockwave will push back shielded opponents
  • Knockback angle of landing is upwards at 70 degrees
    • Knockback angle on shockwave is at the Sakurai angle
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Multihit: 0.7%
      • Rehit: 4 frames
    • Landing: 12.3%
    • Shockwave: 2.5%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Landing: 110%
    • Shockwave: 400%

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The lesser used aerial move is repurposed to be a better landing option. Now it has a shockwave component that pushes back shielding enemies, and unlike most of Sheik's arsenal, has high priority making it hard to challenge from below. In addition, it has respectable shield damage on landing.

The biggest change comes in the fact that the kick itself now drags enemies along with Sheik, plus being able to angle it more precisely. With this, it can now be used as a "Sheikcide" move. But even without going offstage, this is one of the few moves Sheik has that can respectably kill very early should she hit it, considering it is also untechable.

The main drawbacks with this move are still intact, those being the high endlag and being unsafe on shield when landing directly. However, the startup would be increased by a bit to make sure this potential kill move isn't able to be comboed into very easily at mid percents, making this more of a reading situational move. Even so, it at least is lethal, so the read can be well worth it.

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:GCB: Neutral-B:

  • Needle Storm: Charges up and throws small needles a long distance very quickly. Behave differently if the enemy is in hitstun or not. Deals less damage the further away they hit the opponent. Can be angled up and down both on the ground and in the air. Can charge up to eight needles
    • Takes about 2.5 seconds to charge all needles
    • Can cancel charge by shielding, jumping, or dodging
    • Hitstun differences:
      • When enemy isn't in hitstun, will not cause any hitstun or knockback
      • When enemy is in hitstun, will cause heavy hitstun and minor knockback
    • Ignores all projectiles and projectile destruction
      • Does not ignore walling entities (e.g. Zelda Phantom, Duck Hunt Gunmen, etc)
    • Throw angle has a variance of about 45 degrees in both directions
    • Max range of needles is about the full length of Battlefield
  • Low startup
  • High endlag
  • Low shield damage
  • Knockback on mid-hitstun is upwards at 45 degrees
  • Has a set knockback
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Near: 1.5%
    • Middle: 1.4%
    • Far: 1.2%
    • Maximum: 12.0% / 11.2% / 9.6%

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So fitting with Sheik having terrible defense and shoddy neutral, Needle Storm has been overhauled. The first big change is the difference in behavior when an enemy is in neutal, or not in hitstun, where it won't interrupt them at all, similar to how it behaves on Bowser when Tough Guy can power through them. This removes Sheik's ability to play at equal footing at a distance by quite a large margin, and it also makes the ability to stuff approaches a thing of the past, again fitting with her horrible defense. In addition, charging it up takes quite a while now, though there are now two extra needles, so that makes a bit of sense there.

On the other side of the coin from no hitstun targets not being phased, targets in the middle of a combo from Sheik, which she has PLENTY of, will not only be knocked back and stunned, but have a higher hitstun and be knocked back a set distance. If all eight needles are charged, this can lead to a heavy frame advantage which can allow Sheik to read the DI of the opponent a lot better and maybe start an edgeguard or even a sneaky 50/50 trap if she's feeling cheeky.

Some other compensatory buffs were in order, and some are more nuanced, like the needle throw being able to be angled manually both on the ground and in the air, and having that angle extend upwards, allowing for some slight anti-air. Some are more straightforward, like an overall damage buff due to the inclusion of two extra needles able to be charged. And as for other projectiles, due to it no longer stuffing approaches, I think keeping its transcendence is totally fine, and despite dash attacks having projectile destruction, this will ignore that too. Unfortunately, body blocking with minions will still work against it, so uber defense characters like Zelda and Duck Hunt still won't care.

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:GCL::GCB::GCR: Side-B:

  • Remapped move with new sequence: Bouncing Fish: A 360 lunging kick that propels Sheik forward that will by default bounce off of opponents. Holding down the special button allows Sheik to bounce off of any surface that isn't a floor or opponent on contact up to 3 times. Damage, priority, shield damage, and knockback are slightly stronger with each bounce. Can control the distance of the bounces with the control stick
    • Can bounce off of both walls and platforms
    • Tapping the special button will cause a quicker kick with less distance
      • Can still hold the button afterwards to allow bouncing off surfaces
  • Extremely low priority at base
    • Scales up to extremely high on last bounce
  • High startup
  • High endlag after bouncing
    • Above average endlag if no bounce occurs
  • Extremely low shield damage at base
    • Scales to above average on last bounce
  • Unsafe on shield
  • Knockback is at the Sakurai angle
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • No bounce: 10.0%
    • First bounce: 11.5%
    • Second bounce: 13.0%
    • Third bounce: 14.5%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • No bounce: 170%
    • First bounce: 155%
    • Second bounce: 140%
    • Third bounce: 120%

------------------------------------

Now this is a weird idea.

The big change is that Bouncing Fish now bounces off platforms and walls and not just the latter, giving the bouncing aspect some utility on platform based stages. And with that comes another cool idea of controlling the amount of bounces as well as distance each one goes. Despite the high endlag on the move, this combination makes it hard to know where the Sheik will end up or when the onslaught will actually end, making this technically a safe move if placed unpredictably.

An added bonus to continuing to bounce is an increase in offensive ability of the move, to the point where it has a high enough priority and knockback to become a killing move. Like most of Sheik's arsenal of baseline kill moves, it takes some work to get to, but it is still there. Plus, it increases in shield damage as well, so even when the enemy shields they aren't completely safe from their shield just being grinded down by repeated hits. This overall makes this move more about harassing the enemy by using the terrain than simply killing.

The main weaknesses of the move are the low priority and high startup on the first hit, meaning without bouncing, the move is only really used for edgeguarding and killing off stage and is bad for recovery since the enemy can swat you away with ease.

------------------------------------

:GCU::GCB: Up-B:

  • Vanish: After a delay, create a Deku Nut explosion at Sheik's immediate location and teleport a short distance away in any direction. Explosion has a sweetspot at the center and sourspot on the outer radius. Can control length of teleport via control stick. When teleporting in the air, Sheik will be helpless
    • Max teleport distance increased
    • No longer gives a boost before startup in the air
    • Has no reappearance hitbox or windbox
  • Transcendent priority
  • High startup
  • Above average endlag
  • Knockback on explosion is upwards at 70 degrees
  • High shield damage
  • Unsafe on shield
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Sweetspot: 16.5%
    • Sourspot: 11.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sweetspot: 105%
    • Sourspot: 135%

------------------------------------

The biggest nerf to this move, the removal of the invincibility on startup, has been removed in Smash Ultimate, so at this point, I'm happy to actually buff this move a bit.

The biggest change is that it actually has very respectable kill power on the explosion. However, the explosion now has a sweetspot/sourspot system, with the sourspot being a tad weaker than it is now. However, getting a hard read with this move will net early kills that Sheik probably shouldn't get, and won't easily due to the high startup and lack of invincibility.

Another buff is the increased teleport distance. Maybe about 25-30% longer. However, the windbox on reappearance is gone, so Sheik is a sitting duck on the ground and in the air, again going back to the weakness of being bad against aggression.

Lastly, this move has high shield damage, something on the level of a heavyweight smash attack, which allows it to work as an unexpected shield breaker. It is technically unsafe on shield, but since you teleport, the frame advantage will only really be there if you teleport a short distance

------------------------------------

:GCD::GCB: Down-B:

  • New move: Minuet of the Forest: Sheik will play a chord on her harp which will create a gust of dust and leaves around her that will deal slight damage to any enemies that are caught in it. Dealing damage will extend its duration as well. Playing the harp again while it is active will cause it to end prematurely by expanding and knocking back all enemies, dealing damage based on how much damage it dealt across its lifetime
    • Knockback from second activation is independent from the damage dealt
    • Damage happens every 0.5 seconds and extends the duration of the aura by 0.5 seconds
    • Base duration is 5 seconds
    • Aura width is about three Sheiks worth in diameter
  • Very high startup on activation
  • Low endlag on activation
  • Very low startup on second activation
  • Very high endlag on second activation
  • Knockback on second activation is based on the position of the enemy relative to Sheik (below her will send them downward, etc.)
  • No shield damage on aura
  • Extremely low shield damage on second activation
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Aura: 0.7% per 0.5 seconds
    • Second activation: 100% of damage accrued by aura
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Second activation: 300%

------------------------------------

My one new move for Sheik, and I've been mulling over this one for a while now, but I knew it had to be based on her harp in some way since that makes sense. This new move sort of acts like an extra damage racker when comboing, and simply staying near the enemy makes it go on for a very long time. So staying on the offensive allows the aura itself to rack up damage, and then activate again for a wide finisher that also knocks back the opponent dependent on direction, meaning the Sheik player can easily use their speed to position themselves above the opponent to knock them downwards for example. It also reapplies the full brunt of damage the aura gave the enemy, making it doubly effective when performing combos

Speaking of reactivation, just the fact it knocks back the opponent at all gives Sheik some extra defensive ability and keepaway, no matter how minuscule. The biggest weakness of this move is simply setting it up, since it has a high startup. The other one is the lack of damage scaling on the knockback of the move, meaning the only way this move will kill is WAY off the edge. Speaking of, this is a great edgeguarding tool to keep the enemy away from the edge with a bit of knockback. Unfortunately, with its super high endlag, it could also spell the death of Sheik if used poorly or if the enemy airdodges.

Hopefully this is favored more than the Grenade, but then again, it isn't hard to do that. XD

------------------------------------

:GCZ: Grab and Pummel:

  • Below average range melee grab
  • Average standardized grab frame data
    • (There would be three standardized frame data "rankings" for melee grabs)
      • (Fast: 6 frame standing grab, 8 frame dash grab, 9 frame pivot grab)
      • (Average: 9 frame standing grab, 11 frame dash grab, 12 frame pivot grab)
      • (Slow: 12 frame standing grab, 14 frame dash grab, 15 frame pivot grab)
  • Approximate pummel damage: 0.6%
  • Approximate pummel speed: 0.25 seconds

------------------------------------

So despite her quickness, I would give Sheik the average frame data of the grabs. Again, she can't just be able to grab out of shield that easily. However, they are fast enough to still be great for shield pressure. Her pummel is weak damage wise, but fast; to be expected.

------------------------------------

:GCZ::GCR: FThrow:

  • An upper body check on the opponent
  • Low endlag
  • High DI deviation
  • Knockback is upwards at 70 degrees
  • Base knockback is very low to allow for combos
  • Approximate damage numbers: 4.4%
  • Approximate kill time: 440%

------------------------------------

One of Sheik's combo throws, this one has far less damage and has a DI deviation that makes it harder to really grasp a clear cut followup, but the low endlag makes it pretty much guarantee at least one or two hits even at higher percents. Plus, I would definitely lower the knockback growth so this becomes a reliable followup for at least until the late 100 percents where Sheik can try to create a kill situation with a read from one of her slower moves.

------------------------------------

:GCZ::GCL: BThrow:

  • Tosses the opponent behind her and does a sideways kick into them
  • Low endlag
  • Knockback is upwards behind Sheik at 140 degrees
  • Base knockback is low to allow for combos
  • Approximate damage numbers: 7.3%
  • Approximate kill time: 275%

------------------------------------

Same overall purpose as FThrow, except for the tradeoff of having no higher DI deviation and much more damage, this move will not combo at higher percents and has a much lower angle, so the combos it can do are more limited than FThrow. It is great for edgeguards though due to the low angle.

------------------------------------

:GCZ::GCU: UThrow:

  • Does a handstand kick into the opponent
  • High endlag
  • Knockback is upwards behind Sheik at 100 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • First hit: 3.2%
    • Second hit: 7.9%
    • Total: 11.1%
  • Approximate kill time: 210%

------------------------------------

So I saw this was her worst throw of the four, and I thought, "why not make this the spacing throw?" So unlike her forward and back throws, which go against the norm of stage controlling throws, this one would be her technical spacing throw. It would also dwarf all of her other throws in terms of damage and would actually be a decent kill throw at very high percents unlike the others. I think this will make it actually useful.

------------------------------------

:GCZ::GCD: DThrow:

  • A takedown followed by an axe kick onto the opponent
  • Average endlag
  • Very high DI deviation
  • High hitstun
  • Knockback is upwards at 80 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • First hit: 3.0%
    • Second hit: 4.3%
    • Total: 7.3%
  • Approximate kill time: 370%

------------------------------------

Again, a lot like FThrow, except unlike BThrow, this one trades for more damage and a bit more hitstun at the cost of MUCH higher DI deviation. It also can't combo for quite as long as FThrow both early and late, but the high DI deviation will allow the enemy to cross you up. However, use the high hitstun to your advantage and maybe a read can be in your favor for a high damage hit early on.

------------------------------------

Finally done... and enemies made it seems. Knew it. >_<
 
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TropicalTaco

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 9, 2006
Messages
225
Location
Florida
#2
I'll commend you for the amount of effort you put into this, but I'm sorry to say a lot of these are bad ideas. This isn't a character that needs sweeping changes/redesigns, much less even further nerfs.

Case closed.
 
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Joined
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Messages
558
#3
I'll commend you for the amount of effort you put into this, but I'm sorry to say a lot of these are bad ideas. This isn't a character that needs sweeping changes/redesigns, much less even further nerfs.

Case closed.
I'd rather you tell me where these "bad ideas" are, if you'd be so kind.

Also I wouldn't really call this particular one of my ideas a "sweeping" redesign per se. I was only planning one actual new move involving a harp, because why doesn't she have one? XD

I really want to know though. You are the first to just say my ideas are just "bad". I'd like to know why.
 

Glitchy_

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Messages
135
Location
Austria
NNID
Nintend0pr0
#4
Ok. I didn't read the whole thing but I'd like to tell you some things:

1. It's kind of obvious that Skeik players (any top-tier's community) will disagree strongly as you're trying to make their character worse / give him/her different tools that replace the ones they love. Except for Side B. Were don't need side B.
That said, ...

2. I disagree with your planning. (the concept)
Trying to make characters more balanced is fine but some things just can't work.
For example: you wrote
Strengths should be:

Fast attacks
Great approach
Good shield pressure
Heavy combo ability
Great tech chase ability

Weaknesses should be:

Low overall damage
Low kill power
Extremely low priority
Lackluster neutral
Easy to kill and juggle
Lackluster recovery
...which doesn't make a lot of sense.
You can't have...
Fast attacks
Great approach
Good shield pressure
...and at the same time have a "Lackluster Neutral". It just doesn't work. name one character in any Smash Game, that has those stats and still is said to have a bad neutral.
Of course, your thought of giving her "Extremely low priority" would indeed make her neutral worse... it would only work though if you made her hitboxes unreasonably small, like Fair only having a Hitbox at her shoulder. (doing this would also ruin the "Great Pressure" thing.

Some things just don't really work and one of them is making fast and mobile characters bad.

3. This is the most important thing in my opinion: you shouldn't remove characters archetypes.
SHEIK'S A FREAKING NINJA!!!
Of course she'll be better than a random doctor (Mario) or random plumbers or a princess.
SHEIK'S A FREAKING NINJA!!!
Of course she'll be fast and deadly. if you remove stuff like big rolls or double jumps and give everyone a walljump, where's the ninja flare? It's dead.

If you want a balanced game, make everyone Mario. It would, however, no longer be Smash.
 
Joined
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Messages
558
#5
Oh cool, a dissenter that doesn't just say "it is bad" and then leaves. Better than the alternative. :D

Ok. I didn't read the whole thing but I'd like to tell you some things:

1. It's kind of obvious that Skeik players (any top-tier's community) will disagree strongly as you're trying to make their character worse / give him/her different tools that replace the ones they love. Except for Side B. Were don't need side B.
I've been trying less to make the character definitely worse in all aspects so much as give her new weaknesses she doesn't have to counterbalance her strengths. The weaknesses I chose to include involve defense and lack of super safe neutral play, while still retaining her main strengths of pressure and combos with speed.

Funny you mention Side-B, because that was the ONE move I was replacing with a new one lol. Just haven't pinned down a good concept yet, but I'm getting close.

2. I disagree with your planning. (the concept)

It just doesn't work. name one character in any Smash Game, that has those stats and still is said to have a bad neutral.

Of course, your thought of giving her "Extremely low priority" would indeed make her neutral worse... it would only work though if you made her hitboxes unreasonably small, like Fair only having a Hitbox at her shoulder. (doing this would also ruin the "Great Pressure" thing)

Some things just don't really work and one of them is making fast and mobile characters bad.
Funny enough, Sheik from Melee has fast attacks and okay shield pressure with a poor neutral game, mostly due to her lackluster short hop and bad wavedash. I wanted to follow in that same vein. Since movement in Ultimate and my ideal of Smash is slightly different from Melee, I also included low priority for that. And her hitboxes already are rather short range on quite a lot of them, so yes, I think overall her neutral would be worse without making her moves too unsafe per se. There are many ways to have a bad neutral.

And ignoring that you seem to think I'm trying to make her "bad", there are plenty of ways to make fast/mobile characters "bad". To pretend it's some sort of impossibility is silly.

As for the "good pressure" thing, it was mostly based on the fact that despite her general combo tools having super low priority, she would have some more average or above average priority tools up her sleeve that can make stopping her advantage state a bit tough. It also refers to her ability to tech chase and edgeguard, which she does have tools for still. "Pressure" was a nebulous concept in this case, but I still feel it works with what I've given her.

3. This is the most important thing in my opinion: you shouldn't remove characters archetypes.
SHEIK'S A FREAKING NINJA!!!
Of course she'll be better than a random doctor (Mario) or random plumbers or a princess.
SHEIK'S A FREAKING NINJA!!!
Ignoring you thinking Sheik beats Mario in universe (I think Mario is leagues above her in power honestly), and the fact that Olimar, a few inch tall, middle aged alien with sentient multicolored carrots is stronger than Sheik in Brawl, this is a video game that involves balance of characters for competitive integrity. Nobody should care about that sort of stuff. The only people who care about balance in game to match power levels in universe are doing so as a joke. No competitive player actually cares. Imagine if Jigglypuff was on top of the food chain in Ultimate (hypothetically). You think anyone would care because she's canonically a weak Pokemon that she HAS to be worse than Sheik because she's canonically stronger?

Of course she'll be fast and deadly. if you remove stuff like big rolls or double jumps and give everyone a walljump, where's the ninja flare? It's dead.
I don't see it. Sheik would still be fast in this rework, and her deadliness comes from this speed, as a ninja should (low kill power, high damage racking ability via combos). Everyone has a walljump because it's better for everyone to have a minimum amount of movement option, and wall jump is a cool one to have. You honestly think that my iteration of Sheik wouldn't play like a ninja despite still being one of the fastest overall characters because everyone can do only a few things she can?

If you want a balanced game, make everyone Mario. It would, however, no longer be Smash.
I honestly never got this logic, like people who ask for balance among characters want PERFECT balance. I don't. There is a way to balance a game without removing uniqueness between characters. But considering you seem to think that Sheik is required to be good because she's "fast, agile" and "an FREAKING NINJA!!!" honestly shows a lack of imagination on your part on how to design/balance a competitive game than a really compelling argument. It also implies that because we can't have a PERFECTLY balanced game with different character archetypes, then we shouldn't even try, which is ridiculous.
 

TropicalTaco

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 9, 2006
Messages
225
Location
Florida
#6
Oh cool, a dissenter that doesn't just say "it is bad" and then leaves. Better than the alternative. :D

Sorry about that, kiddo. I very often have better things to do than dissect the fantasies of the ill-informed.

In your first post alone you said so much I disagreed with on a fundamental level that I didn't even know where to start, so I didn't. I also suspect that's part of why you're not getting much discussion in this thread. Most people aren't reading the wall of text, and the ones that are don't have to read very far to see you don't know what you're talking about, and that you're not genuinely a fan of Sheik's design, nor do you have her or her fans' best interests at heart.

Almost everything you've suggested here is either half-baked or ill-conceived (or both), and that's putting it very mildly. You either didn't think this thread through, or, more likely, this is all poorly disguised character hatred, posted under the outwardly harmless pretext of "balance" and "design" philosophy. I don't care which one it is, to be honest. Do as you will.
 
Joined
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Messages
558
#7
Sorry about that, kiddo. I very often have better things to do than dissect the fantasies of the ill-informed.

In your first post alone you said so much I disagreed with on a fundamental level that I didn't even know where to start, so I didn't. I also suspect that's part of why you're not getting much discussion in this thread. Most people aren't reading the wall of text, and the ones that are don't have to read very far to see you don't know what you're talking about, and that you're not genuinely a fan of Sheik's design, nor do you have her or her fans' best interests at heart.

Almost everything you've suggested here is either half-baked or ill-conceived (or both), and that's putting it very mildly. You either didn't think this thread through, or, more likely, this is all poorly disguised character hatred, posted under the outwardly harmless pretext of "balance" and "design" philosophy. I don't care which one it is, to be honest. Do as you will.
Start with one then. Find just one fundamental disagreement you see. Considering you say this is such a god awful idea, it shouldn't be hard to find something wrong.
 

TropicalTaco

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 9, 2006
Messages
225
Location
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#8
Start with one then. Find just one fundamental disagreement you see. Considering you say this is such a god awful idea, it shouldn't be hard to find something wrong.

Let me ask you a simple question.

Do you believe, and I'm talking like, with ABSOLUTE conviction, that a character that dies at 60-70%, has low kill power, has unorthodox and hard to land kill moves, has some of (if not the) worst damage trading in the game, and who has no guaranteed kill combos outside of two or three extremely specific setups, should not only have a weak neutral, but have a weak recovery, as well?

Like, honest to God, hand on your heart, do you believe that? Yes or no.
 
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Joined
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Messages
558
#9
Let me ask you a simple question.

Do you believe, and I'm talking like, with ABSOLUTE conviction, that a character that dies at 60-70%, has low kill power, has unorthodox and hard to land kill moves, has some of (if not the) worst damage trading in the game, and who has no guaranteed kill combos outside of two or three extremely specific setups, should not only have a weak neutral, but have a weak recovery, as well?

Like, honest to God, hand on your heart, do you believe that? Yes or no.
Well it depends on the strengths given, which in this case is very easy to continue combos and pretty good approach tools with potentially high damage racking ability and edgeguarding ability as well as all but one throw being basically a combo throw combined with a good amount of shieldstun on most moves. Not to mention still being one of the fastest characters in the entire game. Plus I don't think Sheik would die at 60-70% considering she would technically get a weight buff.

I guess I didn't mention it, but another consistent thought I had throughout doing this is decreasing Sheik's overall knockback growth for almost all of her combo centric moves so if she read DI correctly, even at the 110%-130% range she could still get off a pretty good combo whereas most other combo centric characters couldn't.

In my head, the overall gameplan of a Sheik with this redesign was to get into range to shield pressure, maybe retreat a bit, make sure you find your opening because of not being able to trade well with most moves, but when you get your combos off, they can rack up a lot of damage at pretty much any percent. And with this combination, Sheik can easily just chip someone away to a higher than average percent for her weaker kill options to kill anyway.

That was the general idea, so having all of those weaknesses was a counterbalance to how crazy insane those particular strengths can be when working in tandem. So it all depends on the strengths. Sheik, to me, has always been on an extreme scale compared to other combo centric character (post-Melee even more so) where she doesn't kill with heavy hitting moves at all, but can do combos and general pressure/stage control for days.

When I started this thread, my first thought was "let's take that dynamic to a wild extreme" and when I figured out how ridiculous a character that can start combos from over half her moves and these combos are able to be done even at higher percents than all other combo centric characters, I was hesitant on what weaknesses would be appropriate and what would keep this potential monster I was creating in line. So I chose a weak neutral so you would actually have to work to get your combos, and I did this through lower priority. But then I thought that if Sheik actually didn't get attacked, I think still giving her shield pressure ability would be fine for offensive purposes, plus it fits with the nebulous "high pressure" motif I've decided she should have.

So to answer your question, no, I don't have ABSOLUTE conviction that my idea is completely appropriate, however, you can see that I wanted some heavy strengths for Sheik in the combo department and the added weaknesses were simply a way to counteract the potential imbalance I could bring with that idea. I guess your next question is "why increase her combo ability then if it will just cause imbalance?"

One reason for doing this rebalancing exercise is to maybe show that so long as you stick to your general rules of what you want this character to be, you can even create very extreme things that can still work out fine. If you still think I just hate the character and doing this out of spite, then I guess I've tried convincing you otherwise.
 

TropicalTaco

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 9, 2006
Messages
225
Location
Florida
#10
*Sigh* I don't think you hate the character. I just think your perception of ideal balance for this character is a bit off the mark. I definitely would like to apologize for the things I said and for the weirdly hostile way I acted earlier, though... Pretty embarrassed about it, actually, but what's done is done.

Just know that Sheik is a character that I care very deeply about, and hope will be a good character in Ultimate. She got treated like complete trash in the Wii U version. Like, people got very weirdly defensive (even terrified) about the idea of her being a good character. I still remember how people whined and whined and whined until she got nerfed almost to the point of not being viable, and brought her a lot closer to the range of troll/meme character territory. Is Sheik really that bad? No. But I swear she was like one or two nerfs away from actually being that bad. Like (and I'm still talking about her Wii U incarnation here), she is just barely, barely a functioning character. If she were any worse in any one area she'd just crumble apart and not work. She'd be Brawl Sheik 2.0, which was basically a mosquito with frame data, and I don't think anyone except the most royally fraudulent want that for her.

Sheik, the quick, combo oriented character having good combo routes and 50/50s, was apparently too absurd. So most of that got stripped from her. Meanwhile, characters like Diddy, Fox, Mario, etc, retained all of that and more, for the *entirety* of the Wii U version's lifespan. That's before even mentioning Bayonetta, who violently craps on everything Sheik had going for her, even before any nerfs happened. And that's before factoring in heavy characters with rage gimmicks that can lose neutral like 30 times and then grab her once at 50-60% and kill her with an upthrow > uair or some nonsense. All in all, yeah, I'd say Sheik has had it pretty rough, despite what the uneducated masses might otherwise lead you to believe. It's easy to see someone like Void succeed with her and be like, "wow, what a god! Sheik is so OP! D:" without realizing just how much of his success has to do with player skill as opposed to character strength. The amount of effort and skill needed to succeed with Sheik in a competitive environment is vastly, like, VASTLY disproportionate to the amount of effort/time/skill needed to succeed with any other character, and you'd be shocked how few people know that. The two or three people that still play Sheik will know what I mean... but I highly digress.

The main point of this post was to apologize and sort of clarify what was going through my mind at the time when I started reading this thread. My ultimate fear is that Ultimate won't be as ultimate as I want it to be. And a lot of that fear has to do with how they treat Sheik this time around. She's one of the handful of characters I've been keeping an eye on and sort of obsessing over, and I happen to really like her current design and moveset, so... Reading a thread about redesigning and nerfing her was like a catalyst that set me off a bit. But again, sorry for the way I acted. It was more me having a little bit of a freakout/meltdown with all this stuff hot on my mind than me actually taking issue with anything you said. I understand you probably meant for this to be just a speculation/fun theorycraft sort of thread, so, no harm no foul.

Getting back to the topic...

After rereading a bit of what you said, and after reading your most recent post, I think I have a better understanding of where you're coming from. Sadly, I still don't agree with a lot of your proposed ideas, but I don't disagree with all of them, if that's any consolation. I don't have the time or energy to go into detail, but know that I don't bear you any ill will for anything you've posted or plan to post about the ninja of wisdom.

Anyways... that's about all I've got. Sorry about the whole "kiddo" thing.

Peace.
 
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Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
558
#11
*Sigh* I don't think you hate the character. I just think your perception of ideal balance for this character is a bit off the mark. I definitely would like to apologize for the things I said and for the weirdly hostile way I acted earlier, though... Pretty embarrassed about it, actually, but what's done is done.

Just know that Sheik is a character that I care very deeply about, and hope will be a good character in Ultimate. She got treated like complete trash in the Wii U version. Like, people got very weirdly defensive (even terrified) about the idea of her being a good character. I still remember how people whined and whined and whined until she got nerfed almost to the point of not being viable, and brought her a lot closer to the range of troll/meme character territory. Is Sheik really that bad? No. But I swear she was like one or two nerfs away from actually being that bad. Like (and I'm still talking about her Wii U incarnation here), she is just barely, barely a functioning character. If she were any worse in any one area she'd just crumble apart and not work. She'd be Brawl Sheik 2.0, which was basically a mosquito with frame data, and I don't think anyone except the most royally fraudulent want that for her.

Sheik, the quick, combo oriented character having good combo routes and 50/50s, was apparently too absurd. So most of that got stripped from her. Meanwhile, characters like Diddy, Fox, Mario, etc, retained all of that and more, for the *entirety* of the Wii U version's lifespan. That's before even mentioning Bayonetta, who violently craps on everything Sheik had going for her, even before any nerfs happened. And that's before factoring in heavy characters with rage gimmicks that can lose neutral like 30 times and then grab her once at 50-60% and kill her with an upthrow > uair or some nonsense. All in all, yeah, I'd say Sheik has had it pretty rough, despite what the uneducated masses might otherwise lead you to believe. It's easy to see someone like Void succeed with her and be like, "wow, what a god! Sheik is so OP! D:" without realizing just how much of his success has to do with player skill as opposed to character strength. The amount of effort and skill needed to succeed with Sheik in a competitive environment is vastly, like, VASTLY disproportionate to the amount of effort/time/skill needed to succeed with any other character, and you'd be shocked how few people know that. The two or three people that still play Sheik will know what I mean... but I highly digress.

The main point of this post was to apologize and sort of clarify what was going through my mind at the time when I started reading this thread. My ultimate fear is that Ultimate won't be as ultimate as I want it to be. xP And a lot of that fear has to do with how they treat Sheik this time around. She's one of the handful of characters I've been keeping an eye on and sort of obsessing over, and I happen to really like her current design and moveset, so... Reading a thread about redesigning and nerfing her was like a catalyst that set me off a bit. XD But again, sorry for the way I acted. It was more me having a little bit of a freakout/meltdown with all this stuff hot on my mind than me actually taking issue with anything you said. I understand you probably meant for this to be just a speculation/fun theorycraft sort of thread, so, no harm no foul.

Getting back to the topic...

After rereading a bit of what you said, and after reading your most recent post, I think I have a better understanding of where you're coming from. Sadly, I still don't agree with a lot of your proposed ideas, but I don't disagree with all of them, if that's any consolation. xP I don't have the time or energy to go into detail, but know that I don't bear you any ill will for anything you've posted or plan to post about the ninja of wisdom.

Anyways... that's about all I've got. Sorry about the whole "kiddo" thing.

Peace.
That's honestly all I wanted. Didn't want anyone to think I hate their character whenever I do a thread like this. I always try to think less like a player and more like a game designer whenever I do these, which is why I was not hesitant on asking what you found wrong. You don't have to go in detail if you don't want to though. Thanks. :)

Adding to this...

I understand the fear of one of your favorite characters being nerfed. It can get emotional, especially when the team in charge of balance has shown themselves to be lackluster. I would feel the same way in Dota with some of my favorite heroes who haven't been meta for years, but have slowly climbed up to top tier status. I guess the general feeling is a bit alien to me because I understand that even though they will get nerfs, the reason I like playing them will still be intact, because Dota heroes are balanced in a way that makes why they are played and loved by their players intact.

For example, Necrophos, one of my favorite heroes for many years now, is currently a top tier threat at the highest level after many years of basically being ignored. His motif is killing to heal and amplifying healing to himself to survive while also dealing chip damage over time passively with an added bonus of increasing respawn time and being a general anti-tank. Because of how Dota is balanced, I have utmost confidence that these traits about Necrophos will be intact even in this next patch when he is most definitely going to be nerfed, so even if he's less viable, what he does well will still be done well.

I personally love this balance philosophy, and have been using it in all of the balance threads I've done. It's why I have a set strength/weakness chart to follow so I have a concrete understanding of what these characters are meant to be. Because sticking to these means even when the characters are nerfed, they still fulfill their playstyles and motifs and thus the players of said characters are still happy playing them.

So if I think Sheik has too many combo starters and 50/50 capability and I want to nerf her, I stop myself and understand that if I did nerf those, Sheik wouldn't be Sheik anymore. It's why when her combo moves were nerfed in Smash 4, despite me disliking her top tier status at the time (I sort of dislike all top tiers in all games, even if they are personally my favorite characters), I was heavily disappointed in the Smash balance team because SHEIK'S ENTIRE RAISON D'ÊTRE IS TO HAVE GOOD COMBOS! And so when I also started this thread, I sort of (admittedly pretentiously) thought to myself, "I will do better than the Smash team in balancing/designing a combo centric character by not ruining their combo potential".

I guess this is just me adding to that other post, but whatever.
 
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