Redesigning/Rebalancing Ganondorf

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Aug 9, 2015
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Mini-Redesign/Rebalance Threads

:ultmario: Mario

:ultdk: Donkey Kong

:ultkirby: Kirby

:ultbrawler: Mii Brawler
So I finally get to the prodigal son of rework ideas, Ganondorf. Note that like my Pichu, Dr. Mario, and Samus thread, this will be more akin to a full reimagining of the character rather than just a couple of move changes with a bunch of number tweaks. But with so many people putting in their ideas for Ganondorf, I wanted to stand out, so I haven't shared my ideas for a while because I didn't think it worked as a coherent moveset. But now I think I got it. So let's redo the King of Evil from the ground up!

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Like with all of my "rebalancing" exercises, I will showcase what I believe the character's purposes should be overall, as well as the strengths and weaknesses they should have.

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Ganondorf :ultganondorf:

Purpose: Bruiser/Mighty Wall and Heavy Nuke/Extremely slow/Poor recovery

Strengths should be:

High octane combos
Heavy kill power
Adequate tech chase and traps
Good edgeguarding

Weaknesses should be:

Very low mobility
Low general defense
Low recovery ability
Relies on getting into range to be effective

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General stats to go through overall stuff about Ganondorf. The usual...

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General Statistics: :ultganondorf:

  • Superheavyweight
  • Low walk speed
  • Very low run speed
    • (Walk speed and run speed would be more compacted for the slowest and fastest characters)
  • Very low horizontal air speed
  • Average fall speed
  • High fast fall speed
  • Standardized first jump
    • (All first jumps for all characters will be the same height: around 80% the height of the top platform in Battlefield)
  • Average double jump height
    • (Baseline for double jump will be lower than it is now, but varied between characters: Ganondorf's new jump height would be about 85% of his current double jump height in Smash Ultimate)
  • Wall Jump (All characters will be able to wall jump, but not all can wall cling)
  • Below average roll distance
    • (All characters will have the same frame data on rolls, with the only real variance between them being distance)
  • Average shield health
    • (Shield health would now differ between characters, with the baseline being 100 shield health. Ganondorf's would have 105)
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So overall, not much would change for Ganondorf stat wise, which may make you weary, but since very low mobility overall is his main weakness, we will compensate accordingly. One upside is his slower fall speed, making it slightly harder to just combo him to oblivion, while his fast fall speed would be far greater, making it easier to not just land, but get out of juggle situations. Not TOO well. After all, he still has shoddy defensive abilities, shown here by his lower roll distance and having the lowest shield health relative to weight of the entire cast, but just you wait.

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Aesthetic Changes::ultganondorf:

  • Ganondorf would by default dual wield two greatswords that are close to his swords in his Ganon form from OoT and his Final Smash
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I want to get this in its own section because the rest of the moveset makes a lot more sense when you take this into account. Note that not all moves of Ganondorf's will be sword based, and quite a few will still involve magic and powerful kicks. Also note that the disjoints on these moves would give Ganondorf some much needed range, allowing him to pressure better from slightly further, giving him again some better offensive capabilities.

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:ultganondorf: Special Trait: Dark Flames

  • Whenever Ganondorf hits an enemy, they will be engulfed in purple flames temporarily. When under this debuff, the next attack will give more hitstun to the enemy. Hitstun bonus will stack up to 5 times
    • Debuff lasts for 1 second after enemy leaves hitstun from the inflicting move
    • Each stack will add 20% hitstun
      • Maxes to 100% extra hitstun
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So with the many discussions I've had along with Quillion Quillion with separating hitstun and damage, I think a direct buff to a character's hitstun as a mechanic is a good idea to build on that discussion. In return, Ganondorf's DI deviation would be rather high, making even enemies in high hitstun able to, with proper DI, escape Ganondorf's combos. Plus, Ganondorf is slow by default, so the first few hits can be a bit problematic... or at least they would if not for the plethora of low knockback jank he will have at his disposal, but that's for a bit later on. ;)

For now, just remember that Ganondorf's combos stack more hitstun, eventually becoming nigh impossible to escape other than the Ganondorf messing up, you DI'ing into the ground to start a tech chase, which Ganondorf can easily punish you for, or the knockback becomes too high. All in all, Ganondorf is far more of a combo machine when he finally gets into your face. And as I have discussed and the many of you have probably realized by now, the high hitstun would easily make even the slow, sluggish Ganondorf able to catch up with his victim to true combo them.

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:GCA: Jab:

  • New sequence: A Triforce infused palm thrust. Can be charged temporarily for more damage, shieldstun, and less DI deviation
    • Max charge time is 1 second
    • Charge gives a maximum of 20% extra damage, shieldstun, and DI deviation
  • Very low startup
  • Below average endlag
  • Average priority
  • High DI deviation
    • Average DI deviation when charged
  • Knockback is at the Sakurai angle
  • Barely safe on shield
    • Safe on shield when charged
  • Low shield damage
  • Approximate damage numbers: 9.6%-11.5%
  • Approximate kill time: 220%-200%

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Welcome to the first gimmick of my Ganondorf idea, which is chargeable normal ground attacks. This is for three reasons. One, because of the high hitstun brought by the new Dark Flames trait, Ganondorf can augment his usual combos with chargeable normal attacks, dishing out extra damage if the player feels they have enough hitstun to get away with it. Second, it gels with Ganondorf's dual nature of having high damage combos and high kill power. Now each normal attack works overtime as a multifaceted move for quick damage combos or more kill power in their own right. Thirdly, it allows Ganon to bait, which can give him some trickery in his offense, befitting the cunning King of Evil.

For this specifically, Jab still is pretty darn fast, and when charged, it now has more shieldstun and less DI deviation, making it the go to normal for the few instances you can charge it to prolong a combo further due to the low DI deviation reducing risk immensely. Plus, it is Ganondorf's weakest singular move knockback wise, making it even better at the job. The one nerf is lower damage at base, but it quickly gets to the current level when charged, so a small price to pay.

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:GCA::GCR: FTilt:

  • New sequence: A forceful frontal kick. Has a sourspot on the leg and a sweetspot on the foot. Can be charged temporarily for more damage, shieldstun, and lower DI deviation
    • Max charge time is 1 second
    • Charge gives a maximum of 20% extra damage, shieldstun, and DI deviation
  • Average startup
  • Above average endlag
  • Above average priority
  • Below average hitstun
  • Average DI deviation
    • Very low DI deviation when fully charged
  • Knockback is sideways at 20 degrees
  • Average shield damage
  • Barely safe on shield
    • Extremely safe on shield when fully charged
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Sweetspot: 13.0%-15.6%
    • Sourspot: 10.5%-12.6%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sweetspot: 165%-155%
    • Sourspot: 175%-165%

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Same old same old, well, besides the charging function. This move is still great for following up on tech rolls and its semi-spike angle still makes it a great edgeguarding tool and spacing tool. The biggest buff comes in the form of shieldstun. It already would have a huge amount, enough to followup with quicker moves like NAir and Jab, but charged, the shieldstun is so high that you can potentially get off charged tilts or smash attacks, making it a great shield pressure tool.

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:GCA::GCU: UTilt:

  • New sequence: A tall axe kick. Has an early, clean, and late hitbox, with the early one on the foot while straight up, the clean hit while the foot is coming down, which meteor smashes, and the late hit on the ground near the heel with an accompanying shockwave. Can be charged temporarily to give extra damage, shieldstun, and lower DI deviation
    • Max charge time is 1 second
    • Charge gives a maximum of 20% extra damage, shieldstun, and DI deviation
    • Heel hit shockwave is about one Ganondorf width across
  • Low startup
  • Below average endlag
  • Above average priority
  • Average DI deviation
    • Very low DI deviation when fully charged
  • Knockback on early hit is upwards at 45 degrees
  • Knockback on clean hit is downwards at 290 degrees
  • Knockback on late hit and shockwave is upwards at 85 degrees
  • Average shield damage on early and clean hits
  • High shield damage on late hit
  • Barely unsafe on shield for early hit and clean hit
    • Barely safe on shield if fully charged
  • Barely safe on shield for late hit and shockwave
    • Very safe on shield if charged
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Early: 11.0%-13.2%
    • Clean: 12.5%-15.0%
    • Late: 14.0%-16.8%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Early: 195%-185%
    • Clean: 170%-160%
    • Late: 165%-155%

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You may have seen how I inventively made Ganondorf's axe kick one of the slowest moves to a move that actually is usable without removing its long delay. This is because the delay is now the player's choice to bear, while the base move is much faster, about the speed of Captain Falcon's axe kick. The heel shockwave is still there too, making it still good at catching ledge grab opportunities with its downward shockwave hitbox.

The main changes make this move an actual anti-air tool which Ganon was sorely lacking. Now, it has hitboxes on the foot and actual kick downward, with the latter causing meteor smash, making it good at catching jump out of shield attempts or jump off ledge attempts, especially when combining Ganondorf's height. Plus, a quick hitbox above Ganondorf that can potentially combo is fantastic, especially when combining the aforementioned Dark Flames.

If that weren't enough, the DI deviation is the lowest of all his tilts, and the charge decreases it further, making this the go to move to keep combos going, especially if you can get only the early hit, but ALSO is good for starting them if you get the late hit, as it sends them upwards for a good followup. As a final bonus, the shield damage on the heel hit is still pretty darn high, and the charge will allow you to followup on their shield while the added shieldstun keeps them in their, keeping it as a good shield breaker in its own right. Overall a much more varied move than it once was.

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:GCA::GCD: DTilt:

  • New sequence: A crouching front kick. Can be charged temporarily for more damage, shieldstun, and lower DI deviation
    • Max charge time is 1 second
    • Charge gives a maximum of 20% extra damage, shieldstun, and DI deviation
  • Low startup
  • Average endlag
  • Average priority
  • Low hitstun
  • Above average DI deviation
    • Below average DI deviation when fully charged
  • Knockback is upwards behind Ganondorf at 105 degrees
  • Base knockback is low
  • Low shield damage
  • Barely unsafe on shield
    • Barely safe on shield when fully charged
  • Approximate damage numbers: 10.0%-12.0%
  • Approximate kill time: 240%-225%
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Seeing as this used to be redundant with FTilt killing just as well and being just as fast, this now has more use as a combo starter. It would have lower knockback, less safety on shield (but only barely), and the angle would make getting an aerial above Ganondorf the correct play, rather than the usual diagonal launch, making it better at comboing than other fighter's combo starter DTilts. And to top that off, the charge lowers DI deviation, which combined with its low knockback makes this move very useful at all stages of the game. It does lose a lot of killing potential and damage though, but necessary evils I feel.

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:GCR::GCR::GCA::GCA: Dash Attack:

  • New move: Ganondorf will lunge forward and swipe with the left sword, similar to his slash attack in OoT. Pressing the button again will do another lunging slash with his other sword, with the second lunge going further than the first. Destroys projectiles throughout the first slash only
    • Second slash can be delayed slightly
    • Second slash can be immediately input on startup to cause both slashes to follow through quickly
  • Average startup for first slash
    • Below average startup for second slash
  • Average endlag for first slash
    • Average endlag for second slash
  • Very low priority for both strikes
  • High DI deviation for first slash
    • Low DI deviation for second slash
  • Knockback on first slash is sideways at 25 degrees
    • Knockback on second slash is upwards at 70 degrees
  • Barely unsafe on shield for first slash
    • Unsafe on shield for second slash
  • Average shield damage for both strikes
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • First Slash: 12.0%
    • Second Slash: 12.5%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • First Slash: 240%
    • Second slash: 125%

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Welcome to the second gimmick of Ganondorf's ground attacks and where the low knockback jank will come from mostly. Dash Attack and all three smash attacks will be a sequence of two separate attacks in a chain that build off of each other, with the first hit comboing into the second usually. Of course, DI deviation can get in the way, so as a countermeasure to make sure Ganon has kill moves, all of these moves have the ability to be quickly input, causing the two hits to come in one after the other much quicker, ensuring the first combos into the second to kill.

The reason behind this change is to give Ganondorf some low knockback attacks to combo off of and easily stack Dark Flames for more punishing combos. And of course, he can always predict DI directions and follow into the second more powerful attack, making Ganondorf's DI punish game varied and tricky for the enemy to get out of.

As for dash attack, like all dash attacks in my reworks, it will destroy projectiles throughout. Unlike most, this has the caveat of only the first one doing it, meaning it's not going to work for the further lunge forward, giving enemies ample opportunity to push him back again or catch his second slash. And speaking of, his second slash overall is far better at killing and distance closing, but worse against shields, making it terrible at shield pressure. Meawhile, the first slash is good at both, but terrible at killing, allowing it to do what I mentioned before and start combos. Except the launch angle is closer to the ground, making it more used for tech chasing.

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:GCCR::GCCR: FSmash:

  • New move: Swings one sword overhead, creating a small explosion of darkness on the tip of the blade. Pressing again will do another overhead swing, creating a bigger explosion of darkness on the tips of the blades. Each swing has an early and late hitbox
    • Second swing does not charge independently and is charged along with the first hit
    • Can delay the second swing
    • Pressing both in quick succession will cause both attacks to happen with a much smaller delay
    • First explosion is about 0.5 Ganondorf widths across
    • Second explosion is a Ganondorf width across
  • High startup for first hit
    • Average startup for second hit
  • Average endlag for first hit
    • High endlag for second hit
  • Low priority for both hits
  • Above average DI deviation for first hit
    • Average DI deviation for second hit
  • Knockback of early first hit is downwards at 340 degrees
    • Knockback of late first hit is at the Sakurai angle
  • Knockback of early and late second hit is at the Sakurai angle
  • Knockback of explosion is upwards at 45 degrees
  • Above average shield damage for both hits
    • High shield damage for explosions
  • First hit is safe on shield
    • Second hit is barely safe on shield
    • Explosions are safe on shield
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Early first hit: 16.0%-22.4%
    • Late first hit: 18.0%-25.2%
    • Early second hit: 14.0%-19.6%
    • Late second hit: 18.0%-25.2%
    • First explosion: 10.0%-14.0%
    • Second explosion: 14.0%-19.6%
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Early first hit: 260%-250%
    • Late first hit: 300%-290%
    • Early second hit: 100%-80%
    • Late second hit: 70%-50%
    • First explosion: 200%-190%
    • Second explosion: 110%-90%

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So this is basically like Dash Attack's deal with choosing to go for one or both hits based on the situation. The differences between the two hits are the same here. The first has a higher DI deviation than the other and has less damage (though in this case, it has more due to the high startup) making it perfect to swing in between combos. And even the high startup of this move can work when comboing with Dark Flames, so the downward, sideways knockback from just the first hit can come in handy. Plus, this is still good at catching airborne enemies, making it that much more useful when comboing at lower percents.

The explosions after each strike give this some extra range and shield safety as well as shield damage, making this a potent shield breaker if spaced properly. Meanwhile, the second hit is all about killing, and getting hit by it even at low percents is a death sentence. and the weaker explosion hitbox on the tip can still catch any DI down attempts.

And like Dash Attack, it can be done in quick succession of each other with little delay, making it still a reliable at killing only. And on top of that, it is safe on shield no matter where you hit, unlike how it is now.

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:GCCU::GCCU: USmash:

  • New move: Does an overhead arcing slash catching both sides of Ganondorf. Pressing the button again will have Ganondorf charge the second sword with light energy at the tip and thrust it skyward, lingering and dealing damage multiple times. First hit has a sweetspot on the blade and sourspot on Ganondorf's arm
    • Second swing does not charge independently and is charged along with the first hit
    • Can delay the second swing
    • Pressing both in quick succession will cause both attacks to happen with a much smaller delay
  • Above average startup on first hit
    • Low startup on second hit
  • Average endlag on first hit
    • High endlag on second hit
  • Low priority on both hits
  • Average DI deviation for both hits
  • Knockback on first hit is upwards at either 100 or 80 degrees depending on place hit
    • Knockback on second hit is upwards at 90 degrees
  • Above average shield damage on first hit
    • Very high shield damage on second hit
  • Barely safe on shield for first hit
    • Unsafe on shield for second hit
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • First hit sweetspot: 13.8%-19.3%
    • First hit sourspot: 12.8%-17.9%
    • Second hit multihit: 1.1%-1.5% * 6
    • Second hit final hit: 6.0%-8.4%
    • Second hit total: 12.6%-17.6%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • First hit sweetspot: 280%-270%
    • First hit sourspot: 300%-290%
    • Second hit final hit: 100%-80%

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Whereas the FSmash system is about catching high airborne enemies to continue combos, the first hit is more about scooping up grounded enemies. And note that it is safe on shield too, making it good at catching rolls still, as well as just "uppercutting" a shield in front of Ganondorf. Where the difference is involves the lingering second sword skyward creating a very deadly anti-air that can break shields, which also makes it a surprise shield breaker from below.

The sword's position makes it difficult to catch opponent's DI, though the second hit is fast enough that anyone straying too much towards the center of Ganondorf's swipe will quickly get hit. And building onto the main reason why his smashes are two hit, they will DI away, which still leaves them plenty open for combos.

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:GCCD::GCCD: DSmash:

  • New move: Swipes diagonally downward with the left sword. Pressing the button again will diagonally swipe downward with the right sword on the other side of Ganondorf
    • Second swing does not charge independently and is charged along with the first hit
    • Can delay the second swing
    • Pressing both in quick succession will cause both attacks to happen with a much smaller delay
  • Low startup on first hit
    • Very low startup on second hit
  • Low endlag on first hit
    • Average endlag on second hit
  • Low priority on both hits
  • Above average DI deviation on both hits
  • Knockback of first hit is backwards at 170 degrees
    • Knockback of second hit is at the Sakurai angle
  • Below average shield damage for both hits
  • Safe on shield for first hit
    • Barely safe on shield for second hit
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • First hit: 8.0%-11.2%
    • Second hit: 12.0%-16.8%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • First hit: 400%-390%
    • Second hit: 135%-115%

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No surprise, the new DSmash involves one sword swipe on each side of Ganondorf. While this seems rather banal for the idea of double hit, it brings a great little consequence. Because of the very low angle backwards of the first swipe, it can really mess with DI patterns, further made possible by the fact this is the fastest smash attack Ganondorf has. This may make usual DI attempts to DI out to instead DI into the floor, allowing a followup with the second swipe, or a tech chase.

As for the swipes on shield, they are both great against them, which can make the first hit a very quick OOS option or just general shield pressure option. The main downside is it kills far later than the other two.

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:GCX::GCA: NAir:

  • New move: Ganondorf slashes on both sides of him simultaneously, left being downwards and right being upwards
  • Below average startup
  • Low endlag
  • Low landing lag
  • Very low priority
  • Below average hitstun
  • High DI deviation
  • Knockback on all hitboxes is at the Sakurai angle
  • Very low shield damage
  • Barely unsafe on shield
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Left: 10.0%
    • Right: 10.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Left: 175%
    • Right: 175%

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A very simple new move. Note that due to the swing angles, it would be a bit better against smaller characters than the current NAir. It is a rather generic disjoint NAir. Good for combos and general neutral, though the very low priority necessitates spacing for maximum effect. A bit sketchy against shields, but enough to be safe if you shield right when landing. Not much damage, especially compared to the one-two total of the current Nair, but this is due to the better combo potential with Dark Flames this move can bring. And if nothing else, it's a good offstage kill move.

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:GCX::GCA::GCR: FAir:

  • New move: A double overhead sword swing, similar to his lunging attack from Wind Waker. Has an early and late hitbox, as well as a landing hitbox
    • Late hitbox spikes but does not meteor smash
  • Above average startup
  • High endlag
  • Average landing lag
  • Low priority
  • Above average DI deviation
  • Knockback on early hit is upwards at 50 degrees
  • Knockback on late hit is downwards at 280 degrees
  • Knockback on landing hit is upwards at 70 degrees
  • Average shield damage
  • Barely unsafe on shield for all hitboxes
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Early: 12.8%
    • Late: 14.6%
    • Landing: 7.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Early: 150%
    • Late: 160%
    • Landing: 240%
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So this new aerial works a lot like Donkey Kong's forward aerial in that it does a meteor smash (albeit far weaker) on a perfect hit downward. A difference is that it actually has a landing hitbox, making it a bit better at covering Ganondorf's landing. Plus, the landing has a good angle for combos. As you might guess, DAir is going to have a bit of a different purpose than just spike. But that's in a bit.

For now, note that this move uses the swords, making it a nice disjoint, if a bit slow (about as slow a startup as his current FAir). And like most sword moves, it has low priority, meaning someone closer up can win a trade against Ganondorf, so it requires spacing a little bit. Lastly, when it hits shields, it is pretty unremarkable, but with the right spacing, it can potentially be unpunishable due to only being barely unsafe. As for nerfs, it deals less damage, but otherwise is about as strong kill wise.

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:GCX::GCA::GCL: BAir:

  • New move: A sideways kick behind Ganondorf. Has a sweetspot on the foot and sourspot on the leg
  • Very low startup
  • Average endlag
  • Below average landing lag
  • Above average priority
  • Below average hitstun
  • Above average DI deviation
  • Knockback on both hitboxes is at the Sakurai angle
  • Below average shield damage
  • Unsafe on shield
  • Pushes back shielded opponents
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Sweetspot: 11.8%
    • Sourspot: 10.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sweetspot: 125%
    • Sourspot: 140%

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A rather banal new move that works with his double greatsword wielding status. One thing to note is that unlike the backfist, shorthopping with this will allow Ganondorf to hit smaller characters where the backfist won't, making it a much better defensive anti-approach option.

And it is no different here. The lag is rather low, though the endlag is higher than the startup would be believed, so it's best to use it from a short hop or a fast fall to take advantage of the smaller landing lag. As per usual, the hitstun is low and the DI deviation is high, so Dark Flames will be needed to make this into more of a combo tool. Even so, it can net some surprise kills OOS due to its speed and ability to hit smaller characters, as well as its heavy kill power. The one big nerf, like a lot of Ganondorf's aerials, is less damage, which makes sense considering he can get combos off at even mid percents if played well.

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:GCX::GCA::GCU: UAir:

  • A bicycle kick upwards. Has an early, clean, and late hitbox
  • Low startup
  • Low endlag
  • Low landing lag
  • Average priority
  • Low hitstun
  • Above average DI deviation
  • Base knockback is low
  • Knockback on all hitboxes is upwards at 90 degrees
  • Low shield damage
  • Barely unsafe on shield
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Early: 10.4%
    • Clean: 9.6%
    • Late: 7.5%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Early: 170%
    • Clean: 180%
    • Late: 185%

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The one aerial that is left unchanged completely in terms of animation. In terms of use, it is now a full blown sharking and juggling tool, befitting for the new combo ability Ganondorf has in this rework. The hitstun is low though, so this is best used as a combo tool only after some stacks of Dark Flames are applied, plus it has far lower damage to compensate, but early on it is a combo tool with its very low overall lag and at higher percents, it can be a surprise kill move. It also is kinda okay on shields, but not too much to be spammed.

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:GCX::GCA::GCD: DAir:

  • New move: Ganondorf will clench his fist with Triforce based energy and fast fall to the ground fist first with a hit that meteor smashes. Trajectory of stall then fall can be guided slightly. When landing, will create a very big shockwave that can hit short hopping enemies
    • Shockwave is about 4.5 Ganondorf widths across
    • Shockwave height is about Ganondorf's standing height
    • Trajectory can be controlled with about a 15 degree angle
  • High startup
  • Very high endlag
  • High landing lag
  • High priority
  • Very low DI deviation
  • Knockback on fist is downward at 270 degrees
  • Knockback on shockwave is upwards at 50 degrees
  • High shield damage on fist
  • Below average shield damage on shockwave
  • Barely unsafe on shield for both hits
  • Pushes back shielded enemies greatly
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Downward fist: 20.0%
    • Landing fist: 20.0%
    • Shockwave: 8.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Downward fist: 80%
    • Shockwave: 275%
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For those who can't tell from my wording, this references Ganondorf's opening ground fist slam in Ocarina of Time.

This is Ganondorf's chief landing option, and it fits this iteration to a tee. Firstly, it is slow, but powerful, still doing a nice hefty meteor smash. Secondly, it has a giant shockwave to cover his landing and even can catch short hopping enemies, forcing enemies to full hop if they want to punish his long landing. Thirdly, even if they do shield the shockwave, it pushes back by a wide margin. Couple this with the shockwave being about a third of Final Destination across, and it can make for some displacement problems for enemies who don't respect it.

Lastly, the shockwave hit itself can give way to followups as it pops enemies up and when combined with the very low DI deviation, their path will be easy to predict even without Dark Flames active.

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:GCB: Neutral-B:

  • New move: Illusions of Darkness: Ganondorf will create spinning dark images of his two swords. These spinning images will knock opponents away and can be destroyed with enough damage dealt to them. Pressing the special button again while they are out will cause them to home in on Ganondorf's location, knocking enemies towards Ganondorf in the process. Tilting the control stick in certain directions will change the formation of the two sword images
    • Illusion duration is 6 seconds
    • Illusions can take up to 9.0% damage
    • Illusions can only hit an enemy once when retreating to Ganondorf
    • Formations will have both illusions appear next to Ganondorf on both the side the control stick is tilted, and the exact opposite cardinal direction
      • (i.e. Northeast tilt will cause an illusion to appear northeast and southwest of Ganondorf)
  • Average startup
  • Average endlag
  • Low priority
  • Below average hitstun
  • High DI deviation
  • Low shield damage for all hitboxes
  • Low shieldstun for all hitboxes
  • Knockback from illusions when idle is at the Sakurai angle
  • Knockback from illusions when retreating is dynamically towards Ganondorf
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Idle: 4.0% per 1 second
    • Retreat: 6.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Retreat: 190%

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Something better than Warlock Punch! As if that was difficult lol. This is clearly based on his trident "boomerang" moves from the 2D Zelda titles.

This move works in many different ways. Firstly, the illusions on creation can allow Ganondorf to get someone off him due to the pushback outwards. Second, since they last a while, they can stick around to defend his position a bit, though they can be destroyed. This especially works for landings.

Thirdly, pressing the button again while these are out causes the enemy to be quite literally dragged into Ganondorf's range, making them amazing combo tools provided they aren't destroyed by the enemy. However, the knockback isn't set and the shieldstun is low, so it won't be super easy to just get a followup for free, but requires a bit of finesse, again, fitting the King of Evil.

Some other uses can include guarding ledges with the illusion, pushing enemies away. Granted, they will probably destroy it with an Up-B, but it makes it much more difficult nevertheless. The main problem is setting them up, which takes a little while both startup and endlag wise. But I think this is a great tool to work with Ganondorf's hitstun stacking as well due to the potential to just nick someone into the illusion to then activate it to come back to you and the enemy with them, already with much more hitstun added on, to then go for more combos or a full kill. Really, the possibilities of this move are up to your imagination.

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:GCL::GCB::GCR: Side-B:

  • New move: Fury of Demise: Ganondorf will light his swords on fire and proceed to slice with double sword swings up to 8 times while lunging forward while hovering. The player can hit the special button to continue the combo up to the eighth strike, and can control Ganondorf's hovering and swing direction by choosing a direction with the control stick. Ending prematurely will briefly cause a pulse of fire to come off Ganondorf, dealing damage. The more successful hits he gets off, the greater the pulse's damage and knockback will be
    • Has heavy armor on startup that can withstand up to 9.0% damage
    • Ganondorf's falling speed will be decreased immensely while in this state
    • Can only do once before hitting the ground
    • Pulse radius is about 2 Ganondorf widths across
    • Types of strikes:
      • Forward or Neutral: A cross slash while hovering forward a short distance
      • Backwards: A single crescent slash while hovering back a short distance. Will automatically turn Ganondorf around afterwards
      • Up: A double uppercut while hovering upwards a short distance
      • Down: An inward slash with both swords while hovering downwards a short distance. Doing this on the ground will cause Ganondorf to not move
  • Above average startup
  • High endlag
  • Very low priority on all strikes and pulse
  • Very high DI deviation on all strikes and pulse
  • Low hitstun on all strikes and pulse
  • Knockback on pulse is at the Sakurai angle
  • Knockback on strikes:
    • Forward/Neutral: 45 degrees
    • Backwards: 40 degrees
    • Up: 90 degrees
    • Down: 60 degrees
  • Unsafe on shield for all strikes
  • Safe on shield for pulse
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Forward/Neutral strike: 5.8%
    • Backwards strike: 5.5%
    • Upwards strike: 5.5%
    • Downward strike: 6.6%
    • Pulse:
      • Base damage: 2.0%
      • Added damage: 2.0%
      • Maximum: 18.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • All strikes: 900%
    • Pulse:
      • Base: 240%
      • Added: -15%
      • Max potential: 120%

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Welcome to one of my weirder ideas. Unless you've been following me since the beginning of my rework threads, in which case this is only slightly weirder than what I did with Dr. Mario as a whole lol.

To put this more simply, imagine Marth's Dancing Blade if it had eight strikes instead of four, and every different type of strike also moved Marth himself in that direction. Now imagine if it had a built in finisher when you don't continue that did more damage and knockback the more strikes you landed. That's basically this move.

What is this for? This is the move that works most directly with his new Dark Flames trait as well as a DI reading test by itself. None of the strikes kill, but each has heavy DI, so if you predict the opponent's movement, you will not only have Dark Flames make it easier on you for each strike by not letting them escape due to higher hitstun, but the finisher will go from a simply okay safe on shield consolation prize for flubbing your first strike to a full on kill move. And did I mention that since this allows Ganondorf to hover, it can be used offstage to great effect?

Yeah, this solidifies Ganondorf's scary edgeguarding prowess along with his Up-B, and can lead to seriously hype kills as a good Ganondorf can follow DI all the way off the stage leading to a nice kill, or even upwards for a kill off the top. And the better part is that it doesn't need to hit right away, since if they get caught in the strikes, that can still lead to a good buildup of Dark Flames and damage.

Some downsides include the high startup and endlag times, though the startup has armor, so it can be used to read a get up attack for example. Another problem is it being unsafe on shield, meaning if the enemy gets to shield between your strikes, they can easily cancel the next strike, especially considering the low priority of the strikes. All in all though, this is more of a test within itself to see how well you can work with Ganondorf's new passive Dark Flames and how well you can ruthlessly chase the opponent to the ends of the earth.

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:GCB::GCU: Up-B:

  • New move: Dead Man's Volley: Ganondorf will float off the ground, giving free movement in all directions for a short duration. While floating, he will be engulfed in a dark aura that reflects projectiles and increases their speed. Dark aura itself does damage. Can cancel prematurely by doing an aerial attack or airdodging. Works on a recharge meter system. If the meter is emptied, Ganondorf will enter helplessness
    • Floating speed is about 25% faster than Ganondorf's air speed
    • Max duration is 2.5 seconds
    • Max recharge time is 9 seconds
      • Recharge only happens when not in Dead Man's Volley
    • Reflected projectiles have 30% more speed and no added damage
  • Very low startup
  • Very low landing lag when not emptied
  • Average landing lag when emptied
  • Very low priority
  • Low shield damage
  • Low shieldstun
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Aura: 1.8% per 0.5 seconds
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Aura: 800%

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

So this is Ganondorf's new main recovery option, and it doubles as one of the better anti-zoning tools in the game, though it can't do both. The recharge system disallows this to be spammed too much, meaning either it will be used to approach with Ganondorf as a floating reflector, or used as recovery with the added trickery of cancelling into aerials or airdodge. This also gives it utility when edgeguarding, as hitting the aura at least once will proc a Dark Flames, meaning following up on a cancelled aerial attack is much easier and deadly. On top of this, cancelling the DMV doesn't send Ganondorf into helplessness unless he actually runs out, making it even more usable off the edge.

One difference between this and other reflectors is that, like in his games, it only increases projectile speed but not projectile power, so don't expect to get quick kills from this. Plus, it has a tiny bit more startup compared to other reflectors, so preemptive use is important.

Overall, this move is a more cerebral take on the Dead Man's Volley move, being very versatile while also limited in a way that means the player must find the best possible times to use it. But using it well not only means Ganondorf has a remedy against zoners, but has very good edgeguarding capabilities despite being so heavy without multiple jumps.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

:GCB::GCD: Down-B:

  • Remapped move with new sequence: Flame Choke: Ganondorf will send out a dark mist resembling a hand forward a short distance. Hitting enemies will cause them to be grabbed and slowly sent back towards Ganondorf. Ganondorf can then press the special button again to slam them towards the floor into prone position
    • Slam cannot be teched
    • When enemy is grabbed, hand will retreat to the halfway point between its grab and Ganondorf before automatically slamming the enemy
      • Takes about 1.1 seconds before automatically slamming
    • Max distance of hand is about 3 Ganondorf widths forward
  • Above average startup
  • Above average endlag if missing
  • Low endlag if successful
  • Knockback is downwards at 270 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Grab: 8.0%
    • Slam: 11.0%
    • Total: 19.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Slam: 160%

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

So this is the new Flame Choke, and the only special move Ganondorf retains, but it's so changed that I don't even think it's good enough to call it a rework.

For one, there is no dash forward for Ganondorf. While this removes a recovery option and suicide move, it also makes this move far safer on whiff due to the distance Ganondorf sends out the hand. Also, the aerial version is the same and will cause a prone position so long as the enemy reaches the ground before the hitstun is over, so you have quite a bit of leeway while over the stage to make your tech chase scenario.

Speaking of tech chases, this is still great as ever for that, though there is one caveat in that the hand will only reach the halfway point between you and the grabbed enemy before stopping and doing the slam without your manual input. While this matters very little in close range, at longer ranges, this can potentially make reading rolls away from Ganondorf difficult with anything but Dash Attack since Wizard's Foot is gone. It's more a self-balancing tool to make sure Ganondorf's mid range command grab isn't TOO strong, though it still can cause tech chases and cannot be teched, so the enemy will be there at least a little while either way.

Last thing to note is the great potential for this move to send people down with Ganondorf in a non suicidal fashion by grabbing them while he is just offstage and gripping them towards him while he is falling and slamming them down to the blast zone. So in that way, it is still a suicide move, though less directly.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

:GCZ: Grab and Pummel:

  • Average range melee grab
  • Average standardized grab frame data
    • (There would be three standardized frame data "rankings" for melee grabs)
      • (Fast: 6 frame standing grab, 8 frame dash grab, 9 frame pivot grab)
      • (Average: 9 frame standing grab, 11 frame dash grab, 12 frame pivot grab)
      • (Slow: 12 frame standing grab, 14 frame dash grab, 15 frame pivot grab)
  • Approximate pummel damage: 0.9%
  • Approximate pummel speed: 0.33 seconds
  • Pummel does not cause Dark Flames


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

So despite the swords, Ganondorf will still grab the opponent like he normally would and pummel them with the knee like normal too. He also has the average frame data set here, meaning his grab is pretty average across the board lol.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

:GCZ::GCR: FThrow:

  • New move: Holds the sword upwards and stuns the player with a lightning strike aimed at the sword. Slashes the sword, sending out a multihitting lightning disc that traps the opponent
    • Lightning disc sends opponent about two Ganondorf widths away before launching
  • High endlag
  • Extremely high DI deviation
  • Low hitstun
  • Knockback angle is upwards at 45 degrees
  • Base knockback is high
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Stun: 1.0%
    • Multihit: 1.5% * 4
    • Final hit: 3.2%
    • Total: 10.2%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Final hit: 225%

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The astute of the four of you who actually read this may notice this is similar to the lightning sword attack from Demise in Skyward Sword. That's the inspiration. But what's more interesting is the function.

Note that every single individual hit increases Dark Flames, meaning by the end of the throw it will be maxed out due to hitting 6 times and needing only 5. However, this is an average knockback throw at early percents, meaning you can potentially follow the disc for a followup. Of course it has a high DI deviation making the destination of the enemy difficult.

This showcases a running theme of these throws in that will work with Dark Flames extensively. This particular throw is less combo oriented and more stage control oriented later on however due to the high base knockback.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

:GCZ::GCL: BThrow:

  • New move: Charges light energy on the tip of one sword while throwing the enemy backwards. Quickly shoots them with the ball of accrued light energy mid flight
  • Average endlag
  • Knockback is sideways at 40 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Throw: 3.0%
    • Light projectile: 10.5%
    • Total: 13.5%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Light projectile: 165%

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is technically speaking Ganondorf's most "normal" throw besides UThrow. Not much to talk about really. It isn't great for comboing but is great for general stage control as well as being his main kill throw and one of the more damaging throws.

And it references Ganondorf's first attack with the Light ball when possessing Zelda in Twilight Princess before starting the Dead Man's Volley.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

:GCZ::GCU: UThrow:

  • New move: Ganondorf forcefully uppercuts with both swords, launching the enemy
  • Below average endlag
  • Knockback is behind Ganondorf at 100 degrees
  • Above average DI deviation
  • Approximate damage numbers: 13.5%
  • Approximate kill time: 185%
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is definitely the most normal throw in Ganondorf's arsenal. It's very simply a combo throw with quite a good amount of damage to it but little kill power. Early on, it is good for combos, but later on it becomes far less useful compared to the kill power of BThrow. However, it can still make for a good kill throw while on a high platform.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

:GCZ::GCD: DThrow:

  • New move: Slams the opponent downward into four pulses of dark energy that "carry" the opponent forward until the last one launches them upwards.
    • Pulses will spawn offstage if close enough to the edge
  • Above average endlag
  • High DI deviation
  • Low hitstun
  • Knockback is upwards at 90 degrees
  • Base knockback is low
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Slam: 1.5%
    • Pulses: 1.6% * 4
    • Total: 7.9%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Last pulse: 250%

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is definitely the most unique of the throws and requires a bit more explanation.

This is the designated combo throw, as it will last far longer than FThrow. And like FThrow, it can cause edgeguarding or even offstage combo potential due to not only maxing out Dark Flames, but carrying the opponent off the stage with the pulses if Ganondorf does it while near the edge facing the edge. The low base knockback and upward angle makes it so combos are easy, but the DI deviation can get in the way, so barring that, it can still always be used as a read situation if you feel Ganondorf is too slow to get the true combo.

The main downside is the lower damage compared to all other throws.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

This may be my best one yet... or absolute garbage. Whether or not is up to the maybe 10 people who actually look through all of this lol.
 
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Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
3,202
#2
You're finally doing it. Awesome!

I know that I've been unkind to other "Ganondorf revamp" threads in the past, but I'll be interested to see what you are doing.

That said, why would you want to give him a major aesthetic and moveset overhaul with two swords instead of just making his existing moveset work? Even you should know that complete overhauls like that aren't good for the series' integrity.
 
Joined
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Messages
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#3
You're finally doing it. Awesome!

I know that I've been unkind to other "Ganondorf revamp" threads in the past, but I'll be interested to see what you are doing.

That said, why would you want to give him a major aesthetic and moveset overhaul with two swords instead of just making his existing moveset work? Even you should know that complete overhauls like that aren't good for the series' integrity.
Firstly, thank you. <3

Second, you'll be in for a bit of a treat. Had to look through a lot of Ganon and Ganondorf stuff in past games to get inspiration while still having it work with the moveset as a whole.

Thirdly, I know full overhauls aren't super great, but I vow to make every semi-clone and echo an actual unique fighter, plus I'm a huge masochist lol. That said, some fragments of old Ganondorf will still be here, but I think his general playstyle is going to be less changed and rather built upon further (at least that's my intention)
 

Quillion

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#4
Looking at your first post more seriously, I must admit it's kinda hard to imagine Ganon being a combo monster since his punish game has always been his meat and potatoes. Then again, said meat and potatoes never had any veggies or sides if you catch my drift. I suppose if Ganon were to keep his low-range superheavy niche, it would be best for him to be a combo monster so that getting in close would have more of a reward.

Then again, you seem to want him to be a dual sword wielder. And not his tiny Wind Waker swords; the swords would be more like his Hyrule Warriors greatswords. Does Ganon really need to be a combo monster with that much range?
 
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#5
Looking at your first post more seriously, I must admit it's kinda hard to imagine Ganon being a combo monster since his punish game has always been his meat and potatoes. Then again, said meat and potatoes never had any veggies or sides if you catch my drift. I suppose if Ganon were to keep his low-range superheavy niche, it would be best for him to be a combo monster so that getting in close would have more of a reward.

Then again, you seem to want him to be a dual sword wielder. And not his tiny Wind Waker swords; the swords would be more like his Hyrule Warriors greatswords. Does Ganon really need to be a combo monster with that much range?
The range would actually not be TOO massive, plus you remember he is still one of the slowest characters in the game both on the ground and in the air and (spoiler) he will not have Wizard's Foot to close distance with. He will have something else, but not as smooth a distance closer as Wizard's Foot.

And the idea is that his punish game would stem not only from his combos, but also his newfound range and certain moves that I will get to (mostly his new Down-B and Neutral-B moves) would help out in that endeavor. The idea is that he is still a bruiser, but a bruiser that not only does the big punishes, but can combo off of said punishes all the way until mid percents at which point he can easily go for a kill.

Again, his main gameplan is close distance in some fashion and once he's within his sword range which is only slightly longer than Marth or Ike's range (without their better frame data/speed), he gets punishes off to do combos AND kill, rather than just punishes for killing purposes. So the improvements stem mostly from his main gameplan being more varied and a bit stronger against disjoints and in some aspects zoners while opening combos as a portion of what his punishes can bring. And the main weaknesses are not only the low mobility with a few tools to cushion that (cause I said every character will have at least a few distance closing type tools), but he needs to be precise in his offense still even when trying to get combos.

This is why I added the Dark Flames passive, because when you get in as Ganondorf, unlike Incineroar, you aren't really guaranteed your punish due to his bad frame data, so Dark Flames makes it so when you do something right you get a LOT off of it, enough to potentially win a stock outright due to his better edgeguarding tools if you continue reading the enemies DI and tech situations well.

In short, it would play like Ganondorf does now, but with far more options to press your advantage with and far less crippling weaknesses.

IN THEORY! I have to remind myself this is still theoretical and when modding Ultimate becomes more safe and easier, I will definitely try this out. It hopefully will work out the way I want it to.
 
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link2702

Smash Champion
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May 10, 2008
Messages
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#6
^Why not try modding something like this in smash4 or brawl? You’d have far more effective tools to do this with as opposed to waiting until switch modding and ultimate modding are stable and refined. As much as the wii and brawl were modded I’d figure there’s some sort of simple tools to create your own custom characters and movesets.
 

link2702

Smash Champion
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#7
^Why not try modding something like this in smash4 or brawl? You’d have far more effective tools to do this with as opposed to waiting until switch modding and ultimate modding are stable and refined. As much as the wii and brawl were modded I’d figure there’s some sort of simple tools to create your own custom characters and movesets

If this is just a theory type thing/proof of concept idea, I don’t see why you couldn’t just try it on the previous 2 games.


Edit: why is Smashboards duplicating my posts when I edit them....
 
Last edited:
Joined
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#8
^Why not try modding something like this in smash4 or brawl? You’d have far more effective tools to do this with as opposed to waiting until switch modding and ultimate modding are stable and refined. As much as the wii and brawl were modded I’d figure there’s some sort of simple tools to create your own custom characters and movesets

If this is just a theory type thing/proof of concept idea, I don’t see why you couldn’t just try it on the previous 2 games.


Edit: why is Smashboards duplicating my posts when I edit them....
I guess so. It's just that I don't think I have the tools to do anything with the previous game. Heck, I don't even think modding Brawl could work cause I dont have a Gamecube controller to test, unless there's a way to test out the mod with a mouse and keyboard... or just not with a Wii or Wii U (in the case of Smash 4)
 

Quillion

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#9
Aesthetic question: Given that you're still retaining some empty-handed moves for him, wouldn't it be best for Ganon to just wield one sword in one hand? It would decrease the awkwardness of his jab having his sword blink in and out of existence if you still want the uncharged version to still be fast.

Heck, I'd think having him be empty-handed by default would still work better; at least his swords can appear/disappear with malice sparks a la Hyrule Warriors.
 
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#10
Aesthetic question: Given that you're still retaining some empty-handed moves for him, wouldn't it be best for Ganon to just wield one sword in one hand? It would decrease the awkwardness of his jab having his sword blink in and out of existence if you still want the uncharged version to still be fast.

Heck, I'd think having him be empty-handed by default would still work better; at least his swords can appear/disappear with malice sparks a la Hyrule Warriors.
I actually was thinking it could be a disappear/reappear thing at first. I feel that might be a default, but note that other than his jab and new DAir, none of his moves would be fist based, so it feels weird to have him empty handed by default for so many moves. It's mostly a consistency in design thing. Ganondorf uses swords for most of his moves, so a player would perhaps like to see swords on his person by default.

But maybe that's just me.
 

CoolGuyAlex

Smash Rookie
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Feb 3, 2019
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#13
This is kinda dumb, you clearly don't know anything about how a TRUE Ganondorf would play alright! That's lesson uno, now comes numbah 2. Ganondorf doesn't wield two swords, he only uses 1 and only fo smash attacks ya dig.
 

Quillion

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Joined
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#16
This is kinda dumb, you clearly don't know anything about how a TRUE Ganondorf would play alright! That's lesson uno, now comes numbah 2. Ganondorf doesn't wield two swords, he only uses 1 and only fo smash attacks ya dig.
He honestly was more fun without the sword, but oh well, had to stop the whiners from growing too salty.
 
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#17
I can't tell if this is an insult or a compliment, so I guess I'll take it as the latter. Thanks!
I mean, here you are doubling down on the idea that Ganondorf should lose for free to absolutely every basic tool in the game, so...yeah, neither of you knows **** about how Smash is actually played.
 
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#18
I mean, here you are doubling down on the idea that Ganondorf should lose for free to absolutely every basic tool in the game, so...yeah, neither of you knows **** about how Smash is actually played.
Can you clarify what you mean by "losing to every basic tool in the game"?

Projectiles? You have both dash attack and the new Up-B for those.

Disjoints? Forgetting that I have theoretically found a way to make melee hits in general stronger against disjoints, for this rework specifically, Ganondorf has a slew of disjoints of his own that would be very slightly longer than the likes of Ike and Cloud.

Shield pressure? New NAir should cover that as well as the current one does. Plus, you have BAir which is faster and has more kill power at the expense of range and not covering both sides. And Side-B has armor on it to begin with, so you can Side-B OOS if you feel you will be attacked immediately. Plus I made DTilt faster and Jab is also there.

Shielding? Charging jabs and tilts increases their safety on shield for one, but another is that all of his smashes are safe on shield if you only do the first part, and his FTilt raw is safe on shield just fine as well as DTilt. Plus, his slower aerials have plenty of shieldstun to followup on. Oh yeah, and Flame Choke.

Juggling? Again, Side-B armor plus downward strikes to potentially slowly land with hitboxes, but there's also DAir in general with its gigantic shockwave and stall-then-fall. Plus, his fast fall speed would be higher than it is now.

Reversals during combos? Well he still has disjoints, so not sure what the problem would be to catch airdodges and the like.

Fast characters? He has very fast options that are safe on shield in his DTilt, NAir, and UAir, as well as Jab. And the new Neutral-B leaves a "projectile" type of thing on the battlefield that lingers and is very big, which can potentially limit movement from faster characters if positioned well.

Edgeguarding? Well forgetting his recovery is meh by design, the new Up-B gives free floating movement for up to 2.5 seconds with the ability to attack out of it without going into helplessness too, which is plenty of time to maneuver and defend yourself against enemies. Plus, a Side-B chain, while less safe, can work out when the enemy is trying to ledgeguard you due to the high range of the sword swings.

Honestly, I'm not seeing what you mean here. Which again is why I'd like for you to specify what you mean that my rework is making him lose against every basic tool in the game.
 

Tsant

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#19
This thread reminds me of every kid on the internet who wants to make an epic, open-world game but has absolutely zero coding experience or any idea of what game development is, so he posts about it on the internet. Of course, nothing comes of it, and the idea fades into existence, and all that remains of this ambition is a few lines of text in cyberspace. Insert something about how life is precious and fleeting or whatever.

If this is something you're well and capable of, go ahead. No one's stopping you. Actually, yeah... have you modded Smash? Have you ever built a new, fully-functional moveset? I'm not tryna be condescending, I'm genuinely curious as I haven't been here very long.
 
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#20
This thread reminds me of every kid on the internet who wants to make an epic, open-world game but has absolutely zero coding experience or any idea of what game development is, so he posts about it on the internet. Of course, nothing comes of it, and the idea fades into existence, and all that remains of this ambition is a few lines of text in cyberspace. Insert something about how life is precious and fleeting or whatever.

If this is something you're well and capable of, go ahead. No one's stopping you. Actually, yeah... have you modded Smash? Have you ever built a new, fully-functional moveset? I'm not tryna be condescending, I'm genuinely curious as I haven't been here very long.
Yeah, it feels that way sometimes. Just some fleeting ideas that no one will remember... except me. Makes it much better that my ideas are so off the wall no current modder of Smash would dare touch it either due to the work to make it happen or the fact that they'd rather play it safe lol. It's only in my head and in the concept stage at this point, but I'm pretty sure it could work from a design standpoint.

but has absolutely zero coding experience or any idea of what game development is
You wound me sir. I'm no expert, but I've been studying a bit on at least general game design and development. Plus, I actually play Smash extensively enough and look up the design under the hood.

Something I am far more experienced in is coding though. Again, not an expert, but I'm sure I could rework plenty of systems in Smash Ultimate's code if I was able. though I'm used to making my own original code, so the limits of modding are not something I'm used to. Being basically versed in about 6 different programming languages can help you out in that too.

Honestly, the main reason I'm not modding Smash this very second is for a few reasons. One: college is a pain. Two: modding on Switch is rather unsafe last I heard. Three: I don't have a Wii for Brawl modding nor a Wii U for Smash 4 modding and I'm not sure you can just play/test either game on a laptop.

So until then, this is what I do.

Actually, yeah... have you modded Smash? Have you ever built a new, fully-functional moveset? I'm not tryna be condescending
Your first paragraph is what made this condescending btw. Just so you know in the future.
 
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Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,202
#21
This thread reminds me of every kid on the internet who wants to make an epic, open-world game but has absolutely zero coding experience or any idea of what game development is, so he posts about it on the internet. Of course, nothing comes of it, and the idea fades into existence, and all that remains of this ambition is a few lines of text in cyberspace. Insert something about how life is precious and fleeting or whatever.

If this is something you're well and capable of, go ahead. No one's stopping you. Actually, yeah... have you modded Smash? Have you ever built a new, fully-functional moveset? I'm not tryna be condescending, I'm genuinely curious as I haven't been here very long.
Ganondorf's portrayal is so controversial that it's a magnet for this sort of thing. It's kinda inevitable at this point.

That being said, I get where you're coming from, as I do believe that changing Ganondorf's moveset the way Necro'lic Necro'lic wants will harm Smash's integrity. I actually came up with a way to revamp Ganondorf's aesthetics while keeping most of the actual mechanics intact:

Neutral-B: Warlock Punch: Can be tapped to do a quick, projectile-reflecting, combo-starting backhand, but can be held down to do the move as it is now.

Side-B: Can stay where it is.

Up-B: Posession: Ganondorf dissolves into dark smoke and rises up. If he makes contact with anyone in this state, they are still grabbed (possessed in this case), then Ganondorf jumps out of the opponent. If he doesn't make contact and but hits with the end of the move, he releases a burst of energy that sends opponents skyward.

Down-B: Trident of Power: Same as Dark Dive, but instead of holding out his foot, he rushes forward with his trident held out. He still goes sideways on the ground and diagonally down in the air. Has more range.

Jab: Same, but a spark appears a bit away from Ganondorf's hand signifying a sweetspot. This sweetspot has stunning properties and allows for better followup.

U-tilt: Raises his hand and creates a ball of fire. If A is held, he charges it for a bit and tosses it into the ground for a big explosion. This way, his u-tilt can be used as an actual u-tilt, but the element of the Volcano Kick is still present.

F-air: Vertical aerial sword swing. Same frame data as his current F-air, but better range means better approach.

U-air: A quick horizontal sword swing. Otherwise, I definitely would change it back to the old U-air where it sets up for and continues juggles better.

Every other move can stay the same. Including sword smashes.

Yes, I admit that Ganondorf was more fun without sword smashes, but I do have fun coming up with ways to compromise between Falcondorf, magic, and swordplay/spearmanship while trying to make his existing moveset work better.
 

CoolGuyAlex

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 3, 2019
Messages
2
#22
He honestly was more fun without the sword, but oh well, had to stop the whiners from growing too salty.
look fella idk who you're joking saying that presword ganon was more fun than how he is now. While I will concede on some attacks and with melee compared to how he played in smash 4 or brawl he is shockingly better and more enjoyable.
 

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,202
#23
look fella idk who you're joking saying that presword ganon was more fun than how he is now. While I will concede on some attacks and with melee compared to how he played in smash 4 or brawl he is shockingly better and more enjoyable.
His elbow strike and kicks were just more fun to look at. It's as simple as that.

Ganon's always going to be competitively bad if he keeps on having bad mobility and frame data; might as well have fun with the aesthetics instead, which Ultimate objectively ruined.
 

Porygon2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 2, 2014
Messages
188
#25
Down-B: Trident of Power: Same as Dark Dive, but instead of holding out his foot, he rushes forward with his trident held out. He still goes sideways on the ground and diagonally down in the air. Has more range.
Really like this idea. Would be brutal to spike offstage with the trident tip.
 

Z1GMA

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Messages
5,523
Location
Sweden
#26
Some really cool stuff, TC.
Now as for what I realisticly want when it comes to balancing:

Frame 6 Jab.
Slightly less cooldown on Dtilt (2 or maybe 3 frames).
Higher Air Acceleration.
Leg-invincibility on wizkick.
Fixed blindspot on Fsmash.
 
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