Redesigning/Rebalancing Daisy ("De-echo-fication")

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Aug 9, 2015
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Mini-Redesign/Rebalance Threads

:ultmario: Mario

:ultdk: Donkey Kong

:ultkirby: Kirby

:ultbrawler: Mii Brawler
So I get to my first echo redesign idea. This has been a thing I've been struggling on, because when you redesign an echo character, you basically create an entirely new character and potentially new archetype with it. While technically I did that already with semiclones like Pichu and Dr. Mario here, Daisy basically IS Peach, so not only do I have to make a moveset, but also remove her from Peach's archetype of fighter well enough. Plus, you know, have actually good ideas.

Of course, my ideas are probably trash, but I guess I'll humor myself like I do with all of these threads I make.

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Like with all of my "rebalancing" exercises, I will showcase what I believe the character's purposes should be overall, as well as the strengths and weaknesses they should have.

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Daisy:ultdaisy:

Purpose: Trickster/Stage control/Fragile/Snowball

Strengths should be:

Many combo pathways
Unique traps and setups
Good shield pressure
High area of effect

Weaknesses should be:

Requires setup
Poor disadvantage
Easy to kill
Poor kill setups

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General stats for Daisy. They are slightly different than Peach.

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General Statistics::ultdaisy:

  • Lightweight
  • Low walk speed
  • Low run speed
    • (Walk speed and run speed would be more compacted for the slowest and fastest characters)
  • Below average horizontal air speed
  • Average fall speed
  • Average fast fall speed
  • Average double jump height
    • (Baseline for double jump will be lower than it is now, but varied between characters: Daisy's new jump height would be about 85% of her current double jump height in Smash Ultimate)
  • Wall Jump (All characters will be able to wall jump, but not all can wall cling)
  • Average roll distance
    • (All characters will have the same frame data on rolls, with the only real variance between them being distance)
  • Average shield health
    • (Shield health would now differ between characters, with the baseline being 100 shield health. Daisy's would have 95)
  • Note: Can no longer float
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For changes between Daisy and Peach, the only big difference is the faster falling speed and fast falling speed. This would make her a bit better at doing horizontal combos, but make her slightly more susceptible to them too. Other than that, not too many differences that aren't universal.

Well, except for removing the ability to float. But that's Peach's gimmick, and I have different plans for Daisy anyway.

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:GCA: Jab:

  • New move: A quick swing with a golf club. Has a sweetspot on the head of the club and a sourspot on the arm and body of the club
  • Below average startup
  • Average endlag
  • Low priority
  • Knockback on both hitboxes is upward behind Daisy at 95 degrees
  • Below average shield damage
  • Safe on shield for sweetspot
  • Barely unsafe on shield for sourspots
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Sweetspot: 10.0%
    • Sourspots: 5.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sweetspot: 290%
    • Sourspot: 400%

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Already you can see one of the motifs with Mario sports aesthetically. Mechanically, this is a slower disjointed jab on a fighter with very few, making it great for spacing. The angle is upward above Daisy, which makes it good for starting aerial combos. The head of the club is the "tipper", which has a lot more damage and power, as well as being fully safe on shield unlike the sourspot, owing to her good shield pressure.

The one huge downside for this move is the higher than average endlag for a jab, as well as higher startup than the average jab. As such, it is functionally more similar to an FTilt than a jab, which fits with Daisy's lower than average disadvantage causing her to not be able to get people off her too well.

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:GCR::GCA: FTilt:

  • New move: A quick sideways kick. Can be angled. Has a sweetspot on the inner leg and sourspot on the lower leg and foot
    • Angle deviation is about 35 degrees up and down
  • Low startup
  • Average endlag
  • High priority
  • Knockback is at the Sakurai angle for all hitboxes
  • Average shield damage
  • Barely unsafe on shield for all hitboxes
  • Heavy shield pushback
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Sweetspot: 9.0%
    • Sourspot: 8.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sweetspot: 200%
    • Sourspot: 200%

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Immediately contrasted with Jab being like an FTilt, we have the new, faster FTilt that is more athletic and martial-art based to fit Daisy a bit better. It also can be angled, and the sweetspot/sourspot system is reversed to be closer to Daisy. This is closer to a get-off-me tool for Daisy, but trades that safety as well as potential to kill from the edge at higher percents for both a slight amount of damage and combo ability. It also isn't totally safe on shield, so you can't followup, but you won't be followed up on either.

Other than that, not much to talk about other than the Sakurai angle allowing tripping for setups.

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:GCU::GCA: UTilt:

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COMING SOON

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:GCD::GCA: DTilt:

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COMING SOON

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:GCR::GCR::GCA: Dash Attack:

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COMING SOON

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:GCCR: FSmash:

  • New move: Infuses her entire arm with turquoise crystal, then does a powerful overhead punch into the ground. Has an early hitbox throughout the swing and a late hitbox when on the ground
  • Average startup
  • High endlag
  • Above average priority
  • Knockback is upwards at 50 degrees on early hit
  • Knockback is sideways at 40 degrees on late hit
  • High shield damage on both hits
  • Safe on shield for both hits
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Early: 17.0%-23.8%
    • Late: 21.5%-30.1%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Early: 165%-135%
    • Late: 115%-85%

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If you remember Daisy in Mario Strikers Charged, you will know she can control crystals in that game. I loved that idea for one of her powers, so I decided to integrate it here. You'll see quite a few other crystal related moves later on.

To the move itself, it's a heavy hitting smash attack that is like D3's hammer in that the swing itself is far weaker than the grounded hit. As such, it is hard to land optimally, but still gives good damage and amazing shield damage. Plus, it is actually safe on shield along with damaging shields like crazy. A deadly combination. And unlike D3's hammer, it isn't super slow on startup.

Where the weakness comes in is actually setting up into the grounded hit to get actually respectable killpower. Since this is one of Daisy's only straight up kill moves, this makes it difficult to end stocks sometimes, unless you get a really good read. Lastly, it has very high endlag, making it very punishable on whiff despite it being safe on shield.

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:GCCU: USmash:

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COMING SOON

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:GCCD: DSmash:

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COMING SOON

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:GCX::GCA: NAir:

  • New move: Twirls around, creating a small radius of damaging flower petals
    • Radius is only slightly larger than Daisy
  • Average startup
  • Low endlag
  • Very low landing lag
  • Low priority
  • Knockback is upwards at 60 degrees
  • Low shield damage
  • Safe on shield
  • Approximate damage numbers: 6.0%
  • Approximate kill time: 200%

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Basically her current Nair but with flower petals. And it's more of a circle parallel to the screen similar to Ike's Nair. One big difference is it has a tiny bit of startup for a NAir, which fits with Daisy's lower defensive ability. Combined with the lower priority, this move is not great at get-off-me purposes. It also doesn't last very long.

However, it is a great move in pretty much every other aspect as it has very low lag everywhere else, a good radius, good combo ability, and can even kill later on. It's also fully safe on shield, meaning this is alright as an approach option.

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:GCX::GCR::GCA: FAir:

  • New move: A crystalline infused hook in front of her. Has a landing hitbox
  • Above average startup
  • High endlag
  • Average landing lag
  • Average priority
  • Knockback on both hitboxes is at the Sakurai angle
  • Base knockback is high
  • Above average shield damage
  • Safe on shield
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Arm: 17.0%
    • Landing: 5.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Arm: 130%
    • Landing: 300%

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Another crystal punch move. Like NAir, this is very slow for the category of aerial it's in. However, it is safe on shield despite this, meaning it has a ton of shieldstun. It even has a landing hitbox to help with hitting shielded opponents. And when it does hit, the knockback is very high and the damage is as well, making this okay for edgeguards and great at ending stocks early. It still isn't great on whiff though, so it should be used sparingly.

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:GCX::GCL::GCA: BAir:

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COMING SOON

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:GCX::GCU::GCA: UAir:

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COMING SOON

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:GCX::GCD::GCA: DAir:

  • Rapidly kicks down four times, with the fourth kick having the most knockback
  • Average startup
  • Very low endlag
  • Very low landing lag
  • Average priority
  • Knockback on final hit is upwards at 60 degrees
  • Average shield damage
  • Barely safe on shield
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Multi-hit: 2.2% * 3
    • Final hit: 5.4%
    • Total: 12.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Final hit: 195%

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Daisy's only unchanged aerial. Compared to Peach, it has more damage and lower endlag, as well as higher shield damage. The downside is the lack of float to make this a potent harassing tool in advantage, but it's made up for in general safety to throw out as well as the ability to create combos off of both the multihit and final hit while falling.

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:GCB: Neutral-B:

  • New move: Superball: Throws a superball from the Super Mario Land game. Superball will ricochet off platforms and walls. Can be angled on startup
    • Starting angle is 30 degrees upwards
    • Available angles:
      • Diagonal up/Sideways: 30 degrees
      • Diagonal down: 330 degrees
      • Up: 45 degrees
      • Down: 315 degrees
        • (Can do the same in the opposite direction a la Metal Blade)
    • Superball lasts for 2.5 seconds and has about the same speed as Mario's Fireball
    • Disappears on hit with a player
  • Average startup
  • Above average endlag
  • Knockback is at the Sakurai angle
  • Low shieldstun
  • Below average shield damage
  • Approximate damage numbers: 8.2%
  • Approximate kill time: 300%

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A long forgotten powerup from a long forgotten game, Super Mario Land, Daisy's debut game. This strange ball (idk even know what it's supposed to be, all I know is that it isn't fire) ricochets off platforms, giving it some niche uses on specific maps. However, it is special in that the angles available to throw are not straight ahead or straight up, meaning you will have to rely on its ricochet properties to zone with it.

But like the fireballs they were meant to replace, this projectile is rather unremarkable in all other respects. Just a nice zoning tool that requires a bit more brainpower to make work but can allow for some fun traps, especially when combined with the next move...

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:GCL::GCB::GCR: Side-B:

  • New move: Flower Field: Daisy creates a mid range wave of spores that deal slight damage and will disappear quickly. If these spores touch the ground, they will cause the ground in front of Daisy and beyond to become a field of daisies. This trail will end only when hitting a ledge or the end of a platform. While in the field, Daisy's run speed increases and all of her attacks in the field will create flower platforms that only she can stand on
    • Spores and trail on creation will lower any hit enemy's air speed and ground speed by 15% for 3 seconds
      • Will no longer slow when the trail of daisies stops growing
    • Daisy trail lasts for 25 seconds
      • Will automatically disappear if Daisy is off of the field for 6 seconds
    • Trail can be destroyed by enemies attacking within it
    • Daisy trail will buff Daisy's movement by 15%
    • Flower platforms' "stems" will be based on the used move's knockback angle (e.g. FSmash late hitbox will cause the flower stem to be at a 30 degree angle)
      • Stem length is based on move's power (e.g. FSmash will create a platform further out when charged)
    • When enemies land on the flower platforms, they will immediately be destroyed and they will lose all jumps (not helplessness)
    • Spore distance is about 4 Daisy widths long
  • Very low startup
  • Low endlag
  • No shield damage
  • No shieldstun
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Spores: 2.0%

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This is THE main move I came up with to base Daisy around. It's complicated, like all of my ideas are, so here's the basics.

Daisy will create a wave of spores that deal slight damage and no hitstun, but will slow enemy movement. Due to the non offensive nature of the attack as well as the reach, this is already very useful to chase down enemies who happened to DI outside your combo range or simply to throw out the halt edgeguarding by just a tad.

But if the spores hit any form of ground, they will bloom along the ground and slow enemies along the way. The slowing doesn't happen when they are done growing though, but Daisy gets a huge form of stage control. Firstly, she is faster while on the field, making her spacing game far better, and second, she creates new platforms to do ladder combos off of if she attacks on it.

Topping this off is the dynamic nature of the flower platforms' formation; different moves give different results and rewards understanding how Daisy's more basic moves work. Because the platform usually follows the trail of a hit enemy due to tracking the move's knockback, chances are that the enemy will find themselves landing on the newly created platform midflight. And when they land on it, they lose their jump and are forced to attack to escape followups, which Daisy can use to her advantage easily considering she is faster in the field.

And let's not forget that the new platforms give a conduit for Superball's ricochet to work off of even on platformless stages!

There are things the enemy can do about the field though. First, they can remove a huge chunk by attacking, but that gets back to baiting the enemy to attack for Daisy to punish, so it's not the best solution. Another thing they can do is attack flower platforms so Daisy cannot use them, but the same problem arises. However, the real answer is to attack Daisy herself. This field only gives mobility, not full defense, so getting her out of the field removes that mobility buff and the field will disappear rapidly once she is off of it.

This is THE move I based this rework around because I liked the idea that much. It is very similar to Sylvanos' grass in Rivals of Aether, but creates new platforms and combo routes rather than bolstering attacks themselves, so I think it's unique enough.

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:GCU::GCB: Up-B:

  • New move: Daisy Dive: Daisy will create a semi-solid trail of daisies to "surf" from upwards, dealing multiple hits of damage and knockback to enemies, with higher knockback at the end. Will cause helplessness afterwards. On the ground, will still cause helplessness at the end of the dive. If used on Flower Field, damage and speed is increased, and helplessness is removed
    • Can be slightly angled with a deviation of about 15 degrees
    • Dive lasts for a maximum of 1 second
    • Speed is roughly the same speed as Waterfall
      • Flower Field speed buff is +40%
      • Base distance is about 80% of the height of the top Battlefield platform
    • Will stop at edges and do the final hit immediately when used on the ground (similar to Space Pirate Rush on the ground)
  • Above average startup
  • Above average landing lag
  • Low priority
  • Knockback is upwards at 80 degrees
  • Low shield damage
  • Unsafe on shield
    • Very safe on shield when on Flower Field
  • Pushes back shielded opponents and sends them along the dive
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Multi-hit: 0.8%-1.1% * 10
    • Final hit: 6.0%-8.4%
    • Total: 14.0%-19.6%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Final hit: 200%

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Emulating her diving into a field of daisies from mostly the Mario baseball games. This particular recovery is unremarkable and is similar to Squirtle's Waterfall when used in the air. On the ground however, it differs as a sort of "wave" similar to Flower Field's growth. Still sends Daisy into a helpless position at the end, but it does push back shielded opponents to reposition them. And if it does hit, it will drag them to the edge like Ridley does, making it still good for creating edgeguards.

When used on a Flower Field is where everything changes. No longer causing helplessness, the shield dragging creates a situation for easy shield pressure AND edgeguarding ability by the end of the dive. And if you do hit, not only is there more damage, but no helplessness means Daisy can start an easy combo by jumping at the final hit. Amazing difference. The distance also increases, so the threat level of Daisy rushing in is very high. The main weakness is it's only on the ground, so it's still rather easy to dodge if you see it coming, but on a Flower Field, it is very hard to punish.

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:GCD::GCB: Down-B:

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COMING SOON

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:GCZ: Grab and Pummel:

  • Below average range melee grab
  • Average standardized grab frame data
    • (There would be three standardized frame data "rankings" for melee grabs)
      • (Fast: 6 frame standing grab, 8 frame dash grab, 9 frame pivot grab)
      • (Average: 9 frame standing grab, 11 frame dash grab, 12 frame pivot grab)
      • (Slow: 12 frame standing grab, 14 frame dash grab, 15 frame pivot grab)
  • New pummel: Now grabs with both hands infused with crystal and knees the enemy for pummel
  • Approximate pummel damage: 0.8%
  • Approximate pummel speed: 0.3 seconds


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Here the crystal shows up again. And also here, a much more brutal display of fighting force is shown for Daisy rather than her being accompanied by a Toad she has never worked with lol.

An average grab all around statwise, though.

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:GCZ::GCR: FThrow:

  • New move: Does a powerful knee strike to stun the opponent, then kicks them
  • Average endlag
  • Base knockback is low
  • Knockback is sideways at 20 degrees
  • High hitstun
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Hit 1: 4.2%
    • Hit 2: 5.8%
    • Total: 10.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Hit 2: 290%

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Daisy's more martial art based style is showing in full force here. I still feel it fits her more snarky tomboyish attitude, plus she isn't a stranger to fighting fisticuffs in the games.

The move itself is more for tripping the enemy and getting some tech chase setups. At high percents, its semi-spike nature can help with edgeguarding too.

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:GCZ::GCL: BThrow:

  • New move: Braces and heaves the opponent behind her with full force
  • High endlag
  • High base knockback
  • Knockback is sideways at 40 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers: 13.6%
  • Approximate kill time: 170%

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The animation would be very similar to Incineroar throwing someone backwards into the ropes during Alolan Whip, but only with a lot more time since Daisy is not exactly burly. But she's got strength nevertheless.

The obligatory kill throw and edgeguarding throw with pretty high damage. This has absolutely no combo potential due to the high endlag however.

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:GCZ::GCU: UThrow:

  • New move: Holds opponent off the ground with one hand slowly, then uppercuts with the other hand
  • Average endlag
  • Above average base knockback
  • Knockback is upwards at 85 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers: 16.0%
  • Approximate kill time: 190%

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This is the heavy damage throw, and can even combo at points DThrow stops. Also great for platform setups at earlier percents too and killing off the top if you are on a higher platform.

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:GCZ::GCD: DThrow:

  • New move: Throws down the opponent and elbow drops them, sending them upwards
  • Low endlag
  • Low base knockback to allow for combos
  • High DI deviation
  • Knockback is upwards at 75 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Hit 1: 1.0%
    • Hit 2: 6.6%
    • Total: 7.6%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Hit 2: 280%
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Last brutal throw of Daisy's I came up with. The usual combo throw, though it has the lowest damage of the bunch and high DI on it, so it's more for early to mid percent combos.

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Hopefully someone finds this somewhat amusing...
 
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