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Recovery/ Attacking out of Up-b

kaizo13

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Mewtwo had one of the best recoveries in Melee, and it's back in Project M....with an added bonus of course. You can now attack out of teleport.

I've seen enough high level Mewtwo play to know how effortlessly he can get back onstage with minimal risk. This can be very frustrating for the opposing player, to the point where attempting an edgeguard is not even worth the risk of getting hit and have it possibly lead to a potential string of attacks...most will opt to wait at center stage, granting Mewtwo a free pass back to neutral state.

So how can we make Mewtwo's recovery less safe, while keeping his awesome new teleport ability?

making it so Mewtwo can only attack out of Up-b when he hasn't used his second jump.
This allows Mewtwo to still combo with this ability, but when sent far offstage and he is forced to use his second jump, now he has to either aim for the ledge or find a way to land onstage without getting punished (which shouldn't be a problem because his up-b has very little landing lag)

i hope it's considered for the next release, or at-least heavily tested in the backroom
 
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ThreeSided

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There's an active thread about what changes you'd like to see in mewtwo. This should be posted there.
 

Nemy

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Mewtwos recovery is only free against bad opponents(no offense). Mewtwo generally has 3 options while recovering with teleport(TP). TP on stage, TP above stage, TP to the ledge. All of which are punsihable if you take the time to slow down and anticipate what he will do. Learn to recognize patterns in your opponent(does he attack out of TP everytime? Has he used his second jump/hover?) TP has a set distance, if you take these things into account you can punish bad and good TPs majority of the time.

This would be a drastic change to Mewtwo for no good reason. There are plenty of characters(G&W,ROB,Snake,Sonic) who can act out of their recovery. TP has no hitbox, stopping him from attacking after double jump would make Mewtwos recovery extremely bad.

Besides, you cant TP offstage, double jump, attack, and still make it back. You would have to hover, and immediatedly hover above and towards the stage, which is still very good but definitely not free.
 
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kaizo13

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@ Nemy Nemy

it doesn't make as big a difference as you think it does. You say this would make his recovery "extremely bad", when all it would do is revert it to how it worked in Melee, which is FAR from an extremely bad recovery.

yes other characters can attack out of Up-b, but their hurtboxes don't disappear...you can hit them during their Up-b. The characters you mentioned all have inferior recoveries when compared to Mewtwo, except for maybe Sonic, but..Mewtwo ain't the only one that needs a recovery tweak ;)
 
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Phan7om

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Characters that can probably fly, (Kirby, Mewtwo, Pit, etc.) imo should have good recovery. The only problem is, or rather the reason people think certain characters are really good isnt really the recovery but their onstage game + recovery. Technically, a character is "better" when they have an almost equal strength in onstage game as another character but their recovery is twice as good. lol But after saying that, I think Mewtwo is basically fine how he is now, just some characters need a buff... no one needs a nerf imo. Ex. Puff, a lot consider her/him to be one of the worst characters in this game, but buffing her recovery isnt really going to do much right, its her onstage game that needs work.
 
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kaizo13

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@ Phan7om Phan7om
this thread is solely about Mewtwo's recovery, not his onstage game or how good he is as a whole.

the fact that he can so feasibly get back onstage with very little risk is the problem.
 

Phan7om

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@ Phan7om Phan7om
this thread is solely about Mewtwo's recovery, not his onstage game or how good he is as a whole.

the fact that he can so feasibly get back onstage with very little risk is the problem.
Oh. Then yeah... his recovery is fine then. I was just trying to tell ya, his reovery isnt the problem.
 

kaizo13

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Oh. Then yeah... his recovery is fine then. I was just trying to tell ya, his reovery isnt the problem.
well then that's the problem, you think it's fine to buff the recovery of a character that certainly didn't need it.

All Mewtwo needed was a better moveset and to be made a bit heavier, which were both achieved..but on top of that they buffed the recovery of a character that had 2nd/3rd best recovery in Melee. A very unnecessary change.
 
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Nemy

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This isnt melee.

Besides. Almost every character has a good recovery in PM. Have you seen Samus?

People need to understand this is a completely new game. Change is good.

The recovery certaintly isnt as hard to punish as tethers. Learn to adapt, play smarter. Its not as free as everyone thinks. Most people are afraid of it and dont even go for punishes. Theres always options. Pick the right one.
 

didds

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tether punishment is pretty character dependent imo.

some characters have seemingly no answer and then there are characters like squirtle who almost seem like they were made to eat tethers.

but this is off topic, i just thought I'd mention that I would def take m2's recovery over any tether recovering character's, perhaps excluding samus for obvious reasons.

tethers are just new and don't have a well developed counter meta
 

kaizo13

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Mewtwo's recovery > tethers

as tough as they may seem to edgeguard, they have nowhere near the recovery options mewtwo has
 

bobsterls

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Look, kid, Mewtwo's recovery is fine and he doesn't need any nerfing. Stop whining and learn how to adapt if you can't deal with him.
 

kaizo13

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feel free to share your opinions as long as its constructive
 
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kaizo13

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So after watching Emukiller at SKTAR3, i am that much more confident that my suggestion in the OP is reasonable
 

Roxas215

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It's so funny. Before sktar 3 everyone was saying "Mewtwo isn't that bad. Get better scrub"

Emukiller INTENTIONALLY proves how stupid Mewtwo is and wins Sktar3 and now people are screaming "Nerf"

Smdh. People have BEEN saying how dumb Mewtwo is. But of course all these elitists just thinks the player complaining is bad.
 

kaizo13

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keep in mind that M2 also received a notable weight increase, from 85 in Melee to 97 in P:M

that makes him heavier than 24 other characters...

should he really be that heavy when arguably having the best recovery in the game?
 

CeLL

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His recovery was hardly even buffed from Melee.

Mewtwo is not OP. Your main (whoever that might be, unless you main Fox or Falco) is underpowered. Get the PMBR to buff whoever that is.

But of course all these elitists just thinks the player complaining is bad.
Assuming either way is bad. Support your argument with facts to form an opinion and someone might listen.

Change is good.
My least favorite line ever. Please avoid blanket statements that are inherently incorrect.

If there is a change to the law saying that murdering someone makes the government owe you $10, rather than any punishment, that is bad. A change that's bad? What?
 
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victinivcreate1

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Honestly, Mewtwo is not broken. I think Emukiller was just another Salem. Dude using a high (not top tier) character that just had an extremely lucky break, clean sweeping players that were expected to wreck Emu (aka Prof, Mew2King, Armada). Now if Emu wins another notable tournament or gets top 8 or around that, then that'll seal the deal as him being a top player and one of, if not the best Mewtwo.

Now if Emukiller ISN'T another Salem, relax. Mewtwo is still not broken. There is a good reason for him winning SKTAR 3. I've seen plenty of Project M Mewtwo, and I do main the character as well. And man oh man, his Mewtwo was probably the fastest Mewtwo I have ever seen. Unlike Salem's ZSS in Brawl, who won by being just extremely tricky and full of feints and baits, Emukiller dominated his opponents with raw speed. Professor Pro is arguably a much more skilled player, but Emukiller was moving significantly faster than Professor could react. He was applying great shield pressure, playing a strong neutral game, and he was nearly unreadable. I was able to pick up on the other players habits, but this man was moving too fast. The only person who really stood a chance was ESAM who actually saw what he was doing, but he blew it by striking first (and hitting the shield) in the last stock last hit scenario of game 5.
 

Roxas215

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His recovery was hardly even buffed from Melee.

Mewtwo is not OP. Your main (whoever that might be, unless you main Fox or Falco) is underpowered. Get the PMBR to buff whoever that is.



Assuming either way is bad. Support your argument with facts to form an opinion and someone might listen.



My least favorite line ever. Please avoid blanket statements that are inherently incorrect.

If there is a change to the law saying that murdering someone makes the government owe you $10, rather than any punishment, that is bad. A change that's bad? What?
Are u serious??? So unless you play one of the best characters in the game you character is considered "underpowered" and instead of nerfing OBVIOUS characters you want to buff more then 3/4 of the cast to keep up with a select few???

I cant even............
 

kaizo13

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Nowhere in the original post does it say Mewtwo is OP or broken

...why do you guys like throwing those words around so much??

Besides, just because something isn't outright broken, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed for improved balance or a better design
 
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CeLL

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Are u serious??? So unless you play one of the best characters in the game you character is considered "underpowered" and instead of nerfing OBVIOUS characters you want to buff more then 3/4 of the cast to keep up with a select few???
I cant even............
Indeed. I've explained it elsewhere, but here it goes. Clearly we ideally want the entire cast to be just about the same level. The question is where to draw that line. Any character above it would be nerfed, and any below it would be buffed. Currently we pretty much nerf everyone above whoever is the worst. So where is the line? I put it at the Melee top 4 (infinites excluded), because they, are in my opinion (and more and more people's opinions, given the recent rise in popularity of Melee) the most fun both to watch and play. Currently, only a few characters in PM are that level, such as Fox and Falco, arguably Mewtwo and maybe even Pit. Even Sheik and Marth don't match up to their Melee incarnations. All the other characters would need to be buffed to approach the level of the Melee top 4. So yes, it is my opinion that unless you main Fox or Falco (and arguably Pit or Mewtwo), that your main is underpowered.

Nowhere in the original post does it say Mewtwo is OP or broken
...why do you guys like throwing those words around so much??
No need to beat around the bush. Why would you nerf a character that's not more powerful than the others (overpowered). If you are saying that Mewtwo should be nerfed (in any way), then you are either saying that he is overpowered or are irrationally wanting to nerf a character for no reason.

Besides, just because something isn't outright broken, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed for improved balance or a better design
Very true, but also you also shouldn't go around arbitrarily changing things with no end goal.
 
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CeLL

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To clarify, I'm not specifically opposed to nerfing Mewtwo. If he proves to be above the Melee top 4, he should be nerfed in some way to make him closer to them. I'm opposed to the "that character's better than the others so it needs nerfed even though it hasn't been considered that buffing all the others could result in a more fun game" process of "game balance" which 90% of people whose posts I've read tend to use. Of course it's always possible that nerfing a good character is the correct option, but both must be considered.
 
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batistabus

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Besides. Almost every character has a good recovery in PM. Have you seen Samus?
A bunch of characters in this game need recovery nerfs. Mewtwo is certainly one of them, and he'd be more than fine with his up-b reverted to Melee.

The only other thing that screams out to me is his nair, which is uncomfortably similar to Brawl Metaknight's tornado (especially when paired with float). It would be fine lasting only a fraction of the amount of time it does now.

This isnt melee.

People need to understand this is a completely new game. Change is good.

The recovery certaintly isnt as hard to punish as tethers.
Those first two lines add absolutely nothing to this conversation, and that third one is just wrong.
 
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Shadow Huan

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Mewtwo can only go in so many directions when he teleports, and he can't even act instantly out of it. so if you think he's going to Teleport onto the stage, stick out a lingering hitbox and stuff that recovery on the reappearing frames

I have to watch this EMUkiller dude's Mewtwo, i wanna see why everyone is loosing their **** over it lol
 

CeLL

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A bunch of characters in this game need recovery nerfs. Mewtwo is certainly one of them, and he'd be more than fine with his up-b reverted to Melee.
Mewtwo's up B change has a far greater effect on his combo ability and approach (two things that he doesn't really have without it) than his recovery. It's barely a recovery buff at all.

Mewtwo can only go in so many directions when he teleports, and he can't even act instantly out of it. so if you think he's going to Teleport onto the stage, stick out a lingering hitbox and stuff that recovery on the reappearing frames
True. You only have one option when you're below the stage without your jump: teleport onto the stage. For those of you who don't know this (I'd hope you would), teleport can't sweetspot the ledge from below.

The only other thing that screams out to me is his nair, which is uncomfortably similar to Brawl Metaknight's tornado (especially when paired with float). It would be fine lasting only a fraction of the amount of time it does now.
About nair. Time is not the issue, it's that it beats a lot of stuff and continues going afterward. This may seem counter-intuitive, but the best thing to do about it, if you want to nerf it, is to make it transcendent. This would make it so that any mid to long-range attack and all projectiles beat it.
 
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batistabus

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Mewtwo's up B change has a far greater effect on his combo ability and approach (two things that he doesn't really have without it) than his recovery. It's barely a recovery buff at all.

About nair. Time is not the issue, it's that it beats a lot of stuff and continues going afterward. This may seem counter-intuitive, but the best thing to do about it, if you want to nerf it, is to make it transcendent. This would make it so that any mid to long-range attack and all projectiles beat it.
I disagree. I think the thing it affects the most is his ability to get out of combos, which is already good since he's so floaty. While it does assist in his combo potential, he certainly has a strong combo game without it, particularly on fast-fallers. He doesn't have an amazing approach without it, but that's not to say he doesn't have a good approach. All of his tail moves have very good reach, so he can get in, just not for free. As for it being a recovery buff, it totally is. Even if the opponent can guess the direction that he'll go, he can still cover himself by doing an aerial (bair), which is pretty ridiculous.

Your second point is definitely part of what makes it good, but I do think the duration is still an issue. With float, you can pressure a shield eventually get a poke, even if your opponent clearly sees it coming. Also, I hate move that are super multi-hit and last long (like Ivy's nair). They slow things down, and they require a much more lenient accuracy/timing threshold. But yeah, your suggestion would probably work.
 

CeLL

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I disagree. I think the thing it affects the most is his ability to get out of combos, which is already good since he's so floaty. While it does assist in his combo potential, he certainly has a strong combo game without it, particularly on fast-fallers. He doesn't have an amazing approach without it, but that's not to say he doesn't have a good approach. All of his tail moves have very good reach, so he can get in, just not for free. As for it being a recovery buff, it totally is. Even if the opponent can guess the direction that he'll go, he can still cover himself by doing an aerial (bair), which is pretty ridiculous.

Your second point is definitely part of what makes it good, but I do think the duration is still an issue. With float, you can pressure a shield eventually get a poke, even if your opponent clearly sees it coming. Also, I hate move that are super multi-hit and last long (like Ivy's nair). They slow things down, and they require a much more lenient accuracy/timing threshold. But yeah, your suggestion would probably work.

I find fair a far better option to escape combos, but maybe that's just a preference of mine. I used to play Melee Mewtwo, back before I picked up PM Mewtwo, and to me it's not so much an advantage for recovery or combo escaping. In Melee you could teleport to the ground anyway. Teleport does have ending lag, just not very much. It is very possible to hit Mewtwo before he can attack out of teleport, just difficult. Also, if you can predict where he's going, and know that he'll bair out of teleport, just wait for it and punish the bair. But I really don't see a good recovery as much of an advantage to begin with. Look at Melee. Falco is the second-best character in the game, yet has one of the worst recoveries. Mewtwo has the hands-down best recovery yet is still one of the worst characters in the game. Look at Brawl. Olimar has one of the worst recoveries yet is still number 3. Samus is one of the worst in the game yet has one of the best recoveries. Clearly onstage game is far more important than recovery.

Also, regarding the suggested change to teleport in the OP of making it put him in a helpless state if he's used his second jump, that would absolutely affect his combo ability. For those of you who aren't Mewtwo mains, DJC (double jump cancelling) is a very important part of Mewtwo's combo game, allowing for strings of 3 uairs on most characters with uair -> DJC uair -> teleport -> uair. The problem with this change is that you couldn't attack out of the teleport to get the last uair, because you used your second jump on the DJC, giving him combo ability much more like that of Melee Mewtwo (aka bad combo ability).

Nair though... I watched the VODs of EmuKiller at SKTAR 3 and actually paid attention. The shield pressure is definitely over the top. I said the Melee top 4 were where I thought the PM characters should be. Melee Fox and Falco have insane shield pressure, but PM Mewtwo's is waaay better. Having paid attention to it, I think a change is necessary:

First off, nair has four separate hitboxes iirc, one in each corner. I forget which is which, but it's either that the top ones do 1% and the bottom ones do 2% or vice versa, with the last hitbox (the one that launches people) doing like 4% everywhere. For a hitbox to shieldpoke, it needs to hit the player's hurtbox without touching the shield hurtbox. Having four smaller separate hitboxes makes this much easier to accomplish.

On top of this, since the last hit deals 4% and is an electric attack, it has essentially the same shieldstun as Fox's Shine. Since there are only 4 frames from the 4% hitbox to when Mewtwo can input another attack, and fair comes out on frame 5, you have 8 frames minus shieldstun to have a hitbox come out before fair hits. I don't know how many frames the shieldstun is, but let's guess (it's really a guess. If someone actually knows, that would be nice) 5 frames. Now you have 3 frames to use an OoS option. That's not even enough time to roll.

So, one of my new propositions for a change to Mewtwo's nair is to make it a single hitbox that alternates between 1% and 2% every hit and is transcendent, and also increase the ending lag (but not landing lag) of it just a little (only a handful of frames), to allow more OoS options to hit after shieldstun ends and before Mewtwo can hit a fair/bair.

Alternatively, another possible change would be to keep everything the same on it, except make all the 1% and 2% hitboxes transcendent and reduce their shield damage to 0. Keep the last hitbox as is. So it wouldn't shieldpoke, but Mewtwo can still get shield advantage off a hover-cancelled fair/bair at the end.

These don't change its combo/punish utility at all, only shield pressure and approaching. I really don't think the duration is the problem. I, being a Mewtwo main, of course prefer the second, because it still lets you pressure the shield for the full duration of nair and get some frame advantage on a stationary target with another aerial. The first would require you either to read your opponent's roll (and tech chasing isn't Mewtwo's strong suit, given his lackluster dashing speed), or to back off before the nair ends if they have a nice up B OoS option.

I still say teleport is fine: escaping combos upwards rather than down to the stage doesn't really help; punishing his recovery is possible, just technically difficult; and it would affect his combo game too much and remove one of his best approach options.

Sorry long post.
 
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Shadow Huan

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if you enter special fall the landing recovery of an airborne Teleport is 4 frames. FOUR. If you just Teleport down it's a lot more ( I forget how much more and don't remember where I read it, M2K's frame guide maybe?)

I will admit to the above, this is not the first time that I have heard that the nair is too safe; Life and the other people that I play have problems with it too...it doesn't seem to have too many ending frames, and you can fair out of it pretty safely while hovering/pressuring shields.

probably the only normalization that I can agree with. Nerf the nair slightly and give us back the way the Shadowball charged in Melee and I'll be fine with it.

I still think Dsable should hit the road though lol
 
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CeLL

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if you enter special fall the landing recovery of an airborne Teleport is 4 frames. FOUR. If you just Teleport down it's a lot more ( I forget how much more and don't remember where I read it, M2K's frame guide maybe?)
Yes, it's a lot more (he does that weird spin thing), but unless you're playing against Fox, your opponent won't be able to get to the ground quickly enough to punish you.

I still think Dsable should hit the road though lol
Possibly the most unsafe and situational move in the game. I think Mewtwo is solid without a useable down B, but if you were to change it, what would it be?
 

batistabus

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It is very possible to hit Mewtwo before he can attack out of teleport, just difficult. Also, if you can predict where he's going, and know that he'll bair out of teleport, just wait for it and punish the bair.

But I really don't see a good recovery as much of an advantage to begin with. Look at Melee. Falco is the second-best character in the game, yet has one of the worst recoveries. Mewtwo has the hands-down best recovery yet is still one of the worst characters in the game. Look at Brawl. Olimar has one of the worst recoveries yet is still number 3. Samus is one of the worst in the game yet has one of the best recoveries. Clearly onstage game is far more important than recovery.

The problem with this change is that you couldn't attack out of the teleport to get the last uair, because you used your second jump on the DJC, giving him combo ability much more like that of Melee Mewtwo (aka bad combo ability).

Nair though... I watched the VODs of EmuKiller at SKTAR 3 and actually paid attention. The shield pressure is definitely over the top. I said the Melee top 4 were where I thought the PM characters should be. Melee Fox and Falco have insane shield pressure, but PM Mewtwo's is waaay better.

I still say teleport is fine: (1)escaping combos upwards rather than down to the stage doesn't really help;
(2) punishing his recovery is possible, just technically difficult; (3)and it would affect his combo game too much and (4) remove one of his best approach options.
Because Mewtwo can go anywhere he wants, it makes punishing the move too unreasonable. You can predict and attempt to punish, but the difference in mindgames between the Mewtwo and the other player is extremely disproportionate. Even if you predict bair, it's range makes it so the best you can hope for is a neutral position, especially if it's l-canceled.

Yes, they suck because they only really have good recoveries going for them. That's clearly not the case for Mewtwo in PM. What happens when a character is amazing on stage and always get back? Well...too many PM characters, but that's not really my point.

Without teleport, Mewtwo does NOT have a bad combo game. His combo game is really strong. His Melee moveset is already really good against fast fallers, and his amazing up-tilt and up-air in PM (combined with float) really add a lot. His back air reads lead to early percent kills as well. Mewtwo doesn't have a problem killing, even without teleport.

Right. And what's even worse is that it takes a ton of practice to shield pressure like a boss with Spacies. Mewtwo only needs a few simple button commands.

(1) Escaping horizontally right before he hits the ground certainly does, though.
(2) Unreasonably so.
(3) I don't know why you insist on this point. I don't see it at all.
(4) So then Mewtwo would have an average approach. So? He has an amazing recovery, great combo game, a good projectile, and great options for getting out of pressure. Does he really need everything? Even without teleport, I'd say his approach is only slightly worse than Marth's or Roy's if that.
 

CeLL

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Because Mewtwo can go anywhere he wants, it makes punishing the move too unreasonable. You can predict and attempt to punish, but the difference in mindgames between the Mewtwo and the other player is extremely disproportionate. Even if you predict bair, it's range makes it so the best you can hope for is a neutral position, especially if it's l-canceled.

Yes, they suck because they only really have good recoveries going for them. That's clearly not the case for Mewtwo in PM. What happens when a character is amazing on stage and always get back? Well...too many PM characters, but that's not really my point.

Without teleport, Mewtwo does NOT have a bad combo game. His combo game is really strong. His Melee moveset is already really good against fast fallers, and his amazing up-tilt and up-air in PM (combined with float) really add a lot. His back air reads lead to early percent kills as well. Mewtwo doesn't have a problem killing, even without teleport.

Right. And what's even worse is that it takes a ton of practice to shield pressure like a boss with Spacies. Mewtwo only needs a few simple button commands.

(1) Escaping horizontally right before he hits the ground certainly does, though.
(2) Unreasonably so.
(3) I don't know why you insist on this point. I don't see it at all.
(4) So then Mewtwo would have an average approach. So? He has an amazing recovery, great combo game, a good projectile, and great options for getting out of pressure. Does he really need everything? Even without teleport, I'd say his approach is only slightly worse than Marth's or Roy's if that.
First off, Mewtwo's Melee moveset is not any good against any characters. He's often been called the worst in that game.

I conceded the shield pressure point. It is definitely over the top good and needs a change.

(1) Escaping horizontally is still something possible without being able to attack out of it...
(2) See below.
(3) Without teleport, Mewtwo's combo game is effectively the same as in Melee. As stated before, his Melee combo game is horrible. Absolutely dreadful.
(4) Actually Melee Mewtwo's approach is one of his worst flaws. All he can do is camp and throw Shadow Balls. He has literally no approach without it.

(2) Below the stage without his jump, Mewtwo has two options: teleport onto the stage and teleport above the ledge. You only have to predict which. Once you predict it (you have a 50/50 chance regardless), throw out a long-lasting aerial at the destination you predicted. I don't see how predicting a 50/50 is unfairly difficult; it's the same as predicting roll directions.
 

Melbourne

Smash Rookie
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Messages
7
I think I can help... By the way you should use a more eye complimentary font. ^ It hurt me eyes trying to distinguish what you wrote with the dark background of this forum.

I think we should compare teleports with someone else from the cast: Zelda.

Zelda:

Extremely slow start up time, easily punishable
Slow ending lag unless canceled (Wavedashing out of teleport)
Hitbox near the beginning and end of animation (ending teleburn hitbox will not appear if canceled)
Can't be acted out of

Mewtwo:

Nigh no start up lag or ending lag
Makes a really cool noise (:3)
Can be acted out of and almost instantly on top of that

Personally I think it needs a tweak. Mewtwo has one of the best combo games on the cast, he has an amazing projectile that can even be used for recovering, incredible recovery regardless, can act out of his incredibly fast teleport, has a killing throw, all his aerial and tilts have hitboxes the size of my car...

For the people defending Mewtwo, yes his buffs were well needed, and he definitely is a more balanced character but as of now I think he can control the game a little too well. Personally I don't even mind Mewtwo, I don't struggle against them. I just find his tools and such a bit... Much.

What I'd suggest?

- Have a longer startup animation or more ending lag out of his teleport

This way it's not such a useful tool for combo'ing and it restricts his movement at least a little bit.
 
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U-Throw

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OK, so this might be a little prejudiced, since I main Mewtwo, but here goes. Mewtwo, to be blunt, is not over-powered. I wonder if you've even played Melee. Mewtwo's weight was horrible for a character his size in that game. The weight increase was 100% necessary. The PMBR tested a variety of weights until they got just the right one, and I know because I read a post from one of the Project M Leaders (SHeLL, maybe?). And I agree with CeLL, it has a far greater impact on his approach and combo than on his recovery. I personally have tried to utilize the attack feature of Teleport before, and my opponent predicted hit and me hit off screen for a KO. It can be quite predictable and when you tally in the time it takes him to teleport, punishing it should not be a problem. Granted, you can get in a few Telattacks (that's my new name for them) if you get lucky and catch your opponent off-guard, or if they're just not too great at punishing, but I don't see it as an over-powering complete gameplay-changing recovery-boosting aspect, just a nice feature that comes in great handiness under the right circumstances. Also, Nair may be a little too safe, maybe they could reduce the damage by 1-2%, give ~1 frame more start-up/end lag when he teleports with it, or just in always if making it teleport specific is too much. I like Mewtwo the way he is and I think that no buffs OR nerfs are necessary at all at this point in time.
 

CeLL

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I think I can help... By the way you should use a more eye complimentary font. ^ It hurt me eyes trying to distinguish what you wrote with the dark background of this forum.

I think we should compare teleports with someone else from the cast: Zelda.

Zelda:

Extremely slow start up time, easily punishable
Slow ending lag unless canceled (Wavedashing out of teleport)
Hitbox near the beginning and end of animation (ending teleburn hitbox will not appear if canceled)
Can't be acted out of

Mewtwo:

Nigh no start up lag or ending lag
Makes a really cool noise (:3)
Can be acted out of and almost instantly on top of that

Personally I think it needs a tweak. Mewtwo has one of the best combo games on the cast, he has an amazing projectile that can even be used for recovering, incredible recovery regardless, can act out of his incredibly fast teleport, has a killing throw, all his aerial and tilts have hitboxes the size of my car...

For the people defending Mewtwo, yes his buffs were well needed, and he definitely is a more balanced character but as of now I think he can control the game a little too well. Personally I don't even mind Mewtwo, I don't struggle against them. I just find his tools and such a bit... Much.

What I'd suggest?

- Have a longer startup animation or more ending lag out of his teleport

This way it's not such a useful tool for combo'ing and it restricts his movement at least a little bit.
You cannot compare individual moves! Let's compare Fox's Shine to any other down special in the game. Clearly it's superior. Yet if you gave it to Peach, it would be terrible, probably unused. If Luigi had it, though, he could infinite anyone who doesn't fall down. You have to compare whole characters and their overall potential to win, not the tools (moves) they have.

Zelda's combo game is based around her normals and throws, if I'm correct (I don't play her at all). Mewtwo's is based around his throws and aerials (with an occasional utilt or dtilt to start). Teleport makes up for his overall slow movement by allowing him to still reach enemies for an additional hit. Adding starting or ending lag to teleport would be like adding starting or ending lag to Zelda's normals. It would ruin his combo game.

Mewtwo's combo game isn't even that good against characters who aren't Fox or Falco. Usually just up to three hits. It's impossible to get a third uair on someone and still sourspot it. Against Fox and Falco... let's say that they're good matchups for Mewtwo, but I don't think we need to worry about two of the historically best characters at the moment.

Anyway, the entire point was to make it a combo tool, since as I covered before, his combo game is drastically worse without it. We've mostly been debating Mewtwo's recovery.

His throws are kill moves, yes. So are Ness'. And Olimar's. And plenty others. Learn to DI. His uthrow doesn't kill most people until around 110%, and bthrow is even higher.

But you're right about the noise. It's reeeeeaaaaally good.


OK, so this might be a little prejudiced, since I main Mewtwo, but here goes. Mewtwo, to be blunt, is not over-powered. I wonder if you've even played Melee. Mewtwo's weight was horrible for a character his size in that game. The weight increase was 100% necessary. The PMBR tested a variety of weights until they got just the right one, and I know because I read a post from one of the Project M Leaders (SHeLL, maybe?). And I agree with CeLL, it has a far greater impact on his approach and combo than on his recovery. I personally have tried to utilize the attack feature of Teleport before, and my opponent predicted hit and me hit off screen for a KO. It can be quite predictable and when you tally in the time it takes him to teleport, punishing it should not be a problem. Granted, you can get in a few Telattacks (that's my new name for them) if you get lucky and catch your opponent off-guard, or if they're just not too great at punishing, but I don't see it as an over-powering complete gameplay-changing recovery-boosting aspect, just a nice feature that comes in great handiness under the right circumstances. Also, Nair may be a little too safe, maybe they could reduce the damage by 1-2%, give ~1 frame more start-up/end lag when he teleports with it, or just in always if making it teleport specific is too much. I like Mewtwo the way he is and I think that no buffs OR nerfs are necessary at all at this point in time.
Nair only deals 1% - 2% to begin with, and the problem is that it can deal so much damage to shields and shieldpokes so easily without being able to be punished. So my suggestion was to make it not deal shield damage at all, or combine the hitboxes into one and increase the aerial ending lag by a few frames.
 
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batistabus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
488
Location
New England
First off, Mewtwo's Melee moveset is not any good against any characters. He's often been called the worst in that game.

I conceded the shield pressure point. It is definitely over the top good and needs a change.

(1) Escaping horizontally is still something possible without being able to attack out of it...
(2) See below.
(3) Without teleport, Mewtwo's combo game is effectively the same as in Melee. As stated before, his Melee combo game is horrible. Absolutely dreadful.
(4) Actually Melee Mewtwo's approach is one of his worst flaws. All he can do is camp and throw Shadow Balls. He has literally no approach without it.

(2) Below the stage without his jump, Mewtwo has two options: teleport onto the stage and teleport above the ledge. You only have to predict which. Once you predict it (you have a 50/50 chance regardless), throw out a long-lasting aerial at the destination you predicted. I don't see how predicting a 50/50 is unfairly difficult; it's the same as predicting roll directions.
That's freaking ridiculous. It's thinking like that which causes the Melee low-tiers (like Link) to be completely over-buffed. Just because a character is bad overall, it doesn't mean they don't have some good tools. Mew2king and Taj have proved that Mewtwo DOES have some good properties, it's just that his weaknesses are too great to compensate.

(3) This is just sooooo wrong. Mewtwo's up-tilt and up-air are combo-freaking-machines. Those moves, plus his float, allow him to juggle just about every character (also they're incredibly safe). Converting into b-air reads allows for low percent kills. He can also combo off grabs at lower percents. Mewtwo has received more buffs in this game than just being able to act out of recovery...his combo game is clearly better than Melee.

(4) I'm not talking about Melee. His disjoint on his aerials are tools for approaching. WD into d-tilt is a good approach, and it can often lead into grabs. The float adds to that as well. He also has one of the largest non-teather grab-boxes in the game.

(2) In PM, Mewtwo and other characters have a lot of options that allow them to rarely have to recover from below the stage. With his doublejump + bair, he can almost always get himself into a good position where he has more options. To put him in a situation where he doesn't have a second job...of course it should be difficult for him to recover. Smart players can go far/deep enough to avoid that, and seem to have no problem doing so.
 
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-dMT-

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 6, 2005
Messages
1,076
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Ok, so... I'm not sure if I'm missing something obvious (probably) or it's simply my inexperience with Peach and her float shenanigans ever since Melee - but I can't seem to get Hover out of Teleport working. Like, at all. It must be incorrect input.

I use L to shield/L-cancel/WD, so I have set R as Jump for access to c-stick during my hovers. I hover just fine once I've already jumped. I just can't seem to do the short hop > Teleport horizontally > hover. Trying to get that flex-air down lawl.

Anyone care to remedy my noobiness here?
 

kaizo13

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Messages
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Location
Cali
Ok, so... I'm not sure if I'm missing something obvious (probably) or it's simply my inexperience with Peach and her float shenanigans ever since Melee - but I can't seem to get Hover out of Teleport working. Like, at all. It must be incorrect input.

I use L to shield/L-cancel/WD, so I have set R as Jump for access to c-stick during my hovers. I hover just fine once I've already jumped. I just can't seem to do the short hop > Teleport horizontally > hover. Trying to get that flex-air down lawl.

Anyone care to remedy my noobiness here?
have u figured it out yet?, if u haven't, it's most likely that you are using your second jump by accident when you Up-b since up on the control stick is jump. You can't hover after using your second jump. The easiest way to solve this is to turn tap jump off.
 
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victinivcreate1

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That's not a good thing.
Its not that bad either. I came from Brawl to Project M. And I didn't main MK in Brawl either (only used MK in the ditto and even then I wasn't afraid to go my mains either to fight MK), I mained Marth, Lucario, and Shiek, and have a bunch of other mid/low tier characters as well (not that Marth or Lucario are mid tier, but Shiek is). So edgeguarding crazy recoveries like R.O.B's and Pit's in THAT game was no problem. Mewtwo's recovery is nowhere near as good as these two. Its a double jump/hover (which is not as long as his double jump), then Teleport, which you can edgehog easy, since most Mewtwo's go for the ledgegrab.

Projectile characters have it even easier! Just shoot! Pit mains should not be complaining. Mario mains should not be complaining (they shouldn't really say anything). Link and Samus mains should not be complaining. Mewtwo is not like MK, where he has huge advantages over the cast. Mewtwo actually has an extremely high techical barrier when it comes to making the most of his Teleport and other movement options. Don't believe me? Read this and this.
 
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