Recommended Ruleset: First Draft and Discussion

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#1
Competitive Recommended Ruleset

Competition Rules

Competition format is Double Elimination.
If possible, brackets are to be generated with a Random Number Generator (RNG). It is recommended Tournament Organisers have a consensus from players before any seeding/byes are placed in-bracket.

All sets with the exception of the below are best-of-3.
Winners Semis, Losers Quarters and Losers Semis are best-of-5.
Winners Finals, Losers Finals and Grand Finals are best-of-7.
Online matches are best-of-5, with Winners Finals, Losers Finals and Grand Finals best-of-7.

Set size is ultimately up to the Tournament Organiser, but these are general guidelines.

Game Settings

Mode: STOCK
Stocks: 5
Handicap: OFF
Team Attack: ON
Stage Select: ON
Damage: 100%
Item Switch: NONE
All Characters Available

Stages

The Starter Stage List consists of Congo Jungle, Hyrule Castle and Dream Land.
The Counterpick Stage List consists of Peach's Castle.

First match of all sets is selected by a 3-stage striking system with the Starter Stage List. An impartial observer/tournament organiser flips a coin to decide who strikes first. If this is impossible (online), whoever strikes first will be pre-decided by an RNG.

The 64 Recommended Ruleset uses the stage striking system. In this system, players take turns striking stages from the Starter Stage List until only one remains; these stages are not banned and can be counterpicked later in the set.

Use of Gameshark to manage stage hazards is up to the Tournament Organiser. Hyrule without tornadoes and Dreamland without Wind may treated as:
  • The same stage as their unchanged counterparts
  • Separate starter stages to be stricken (list: Congo, Hyrule, Hyrule w/o Tornadoes, Dream Land, Dream Land w/o Wind)
  • Both separate starter stages and counterpick stages
  • Counterpick stages only
Once again, this is left to the Tournament Organiser, who has a duty to inform players of his/her decision, even if that decision is to allow the players to choose. Note: other stages are not made legal just by removing hazards.

Characters

All characters are legal.

Black DK (Right-C), Dark Samus (Down-C) and Dark Falcon (Right-C) are discouraged if Congo Jungle is the stage for visibility reasons. The opposing player may reset the match without penalty if they wish for a colour change. Taking or dealing any damage nullifies this right.

Low Tiers are all characters in B tier and below: Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff, Ness, Luigi, Samus and Link.

Set Procedure
  • Players select characters for first match. Double Blind Picks may be called.
  • Players strike stages.
  • The first match is played.
  • The loser of the previous match selects the next match's stage from the Starter Stage and Counterpick Stage Lists.
  • The winner of the previous match selects their character.
  • The loser of the previous match selects their character.
  • The next match is played.
  • Above four steps are repeated if necessary.
General Guidelines for Console/Offline
  • Console is strongly recommended over using a Wii (frame skipping). A lagless laptop is usable, as it has no frame skipping, but console is still strongly recommended.
  • If there are requests to play using Gamecube controllers, a Wii with the Virtual Console version of Super Smash Bros. can be used. Alternatively, suitable PC adapters may be used.
  • If there are requests to play using a keyboard/non-Nintendo/third-party controllers, a laptop set-up is recommended. Each controller user is responsible for bringing relevant adapters and drivers (on a USB stick), and to calibrate their own controllers.
  • Tournament organisers should discuss and organise these arrangements beforehand.
  • It is recommended a 8/10 minute time limit is put in place for all matches, especially Hyrule. This may be difficult to enforce.
  • Draws are decided first by stock, then by percentage.
  • Disrupting your opponent physically or intending to disrupt their play will result in a warning. Repeated action will result in disqualification from the tournament. Observers who physically disrupt players are to be dealt with as the Tournament Organiser sees fit. Disqualification is recommended if possible.
  • Pausing is discouraged, and should only be done at the end of a stock, if at all. At other times, the pauser loses their current stock. If the pause causes the opponent to lose their stock, the pauser loses two stocks.
  • Extreme stalling is disallowed. Any reported case of such will result in a warning, followed by automatic forfeit of the match. If this is reported again, automatic forfeit is enforced without a warning. If there is no movement from either player, the player with fewer stocks/loser percentage is considered to be stalling.
  • Mages DQ is enforced. When a match is called, both players must promptly arrive. If a player is 2 minutes late, they receive a warning. At 4 minutes late, they lose the first game of the set and forfeit counterpick rights. At 6 minutes late, they forfeit the entire set.
  • Pool play should preceded brackets play if the number of participants is suitably large. This is left to the Tournament Organiser's discretion, given 64 has low dedicated attendance rates.
  • It is recommended that drugs*, including alcohol and caffeine, are prohibited at tournaments for the sake of both the venue and the participants. Legal issues are possible, and use of drugs in the vicinity of the venue by participants should be heavily discouraged or prohibited completely. Relevant Federal and State regulations on drugs obviously apply.
* Healthcare drugs such as insulin supplements (diabetes), Epi-pens (anaphalactics) or asthmatic inhalers (asthmatics) are exempt, given usage is by those suffering from the relevant conditions.

General Guidelines for Online
  • Tournament Organisers are responsible for drawing brackets, publicly showing brackets/rules and disqualification. The Smash 64 Competitive Events section is recommended for posting tournament threads. This includes deciding who will strike stages first via RNG.
  • Matches are to be played with P2P Kaillera clients. Recommended emulators include Project64k, Project64k Vista Edition and variants of Mupen64k, such as Mupen Beta++.
  • If a match is played on server, observers must ensure they will not cause lag or an increase in frame delay, and may not communicate with players once a match has started.
  • The North American (U) version of Super Smash Bros is strongly recommended over (E), (A), (I) versions. Using All-star! Dairantou Smash Brothers! (J) should be either a separate bracket or the theme of the tournament.
  • Desynchronisation in any single match will result in a restart of that match, with all previous successful matches counting. If possible, it is recommended that the exact stock and percentage at the point where desync occurred should be used. This may be difficult, especially if the desync occurs during a hard-to-escape combo, so if both players agree, resetting to just stock is okay.
  • If the frame rate consistently drops below 57fps and there is a clear offender, they will be given one more chance to replay that match - lagging again, even in a different match, will result in disqualification.
  • Disrupting your opponent or abuse through Kaillera should be reported via a Print Screen/equivalent function, and will result in disqualification from the tournament.
  • Pausing is discouraged, and should only be done at the end of a stock, if at all. At other times, the pauser loses their current stock. If the pause causes the opponent to lose their stock, the pauser loses two stocks.
  • Extreme stalling is disallowed. Enforcing is incredibly difficult. If it is reported, a server match with impartial observer is recommended to decide penalties fairly. Penalties are the same as Console penalties.
  • It is recommended that inactivity over a period (decided by the organiser) is met with warnings and/or disqualification.

Additional Doubles Rules
  • Life Stealing (pressing Start when eliminated) is allowed.
Legal status of DK's Infinite Cargo Hold is left to Tournament Organiser discretion. It is recommended that the Cargo Hold limited to 2 releases to prevent abuse. One opinion is that the Cargo Hold can be regarded as a stall. If time is being enforced, it may be considered as such after 2-3 re-releases with the throwing player not attempting to do anything with it. It is advisable that this is cumulative in order to prevent abuse of this rule by throwing other moves in-between.

The following is how to escape the Cargo Hold. The tournament organiser may wish to inform players of this if they are not restricting the Cargo Hold.
If they escape within 47 frames then that is the only way to do it.

Escaping DK's Throw Trap:

To escape DK's Clasp, use the normal escape method: Smashing and pressing alternate buttons/directions. You can escape in 8 frames.

To escape the ITT you have to start by pressing Right+B as soon as you are on DK's back (you'll get some percentage), then follow that with Left+A etc... DK cannot grab you again if you do this. If DK grabs, it will go through you. If he turns around, you will be free to grab him. Even if the DK is perfect he cannot grab you.

If you cannot do the above method, then you should do the escape procedure, and mash A once you escape the first hold. If the DK player is 1 frame off then you will hit him before he can grab again. This method is easier but if the DK is perfect he will be able to grab.

1 frame off:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5731459134922078284

DK Can't Fthrow:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5888230683216723819

^The same for Kirby and all other characters
This is only a recommended ruleset, and it is encouraged that Tournament Organisers take it and modify it as they see fit, while understanding the reasoning behind each of the recommendations and taking said reasons into account.

Other rules such as region-locking for online are left to the Tournament Organiser.

seriously who wants to play at 8 frames >_>
 
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#2
Clarification of the "stalling" rule:

If both players refuse to move from a position and it is not clear that one in particular is "stalling" then the one with fewer stocks, or lower percent will be considered the one stalling.


In case of a one character on the left side of Hyrule, one character on the right standstill
 
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#4
Desynch rules need to be cleaned up. If the desynch is actually a lag out, then IMO play should continue from the point where the player lagged out (i.e. exact stocks and percentages). If the desynch is a true desynch, then AFAIK it's impossible to tell whose fault it was, so how can a person be disqualified?

EDIT: Also, I'm against human rock-paper-scissors as a deciding factor, which is a skill game in itself. Just flip a coin.
 

dandan

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#5
though personally i do not play on console, i disagree with the finding alternative console so people playing with other controllers be able to play.

first of all, the wii has frame skipping and as such, is not suitable for competitive play.

and as for playing on a laptop, you cannot expect players to bring adapters, and if the organizer brings them, they won't always work with certain pads.

i think the organizer should clarify at the beginning if this is a tourney on the n64 alone, or whether such adaptations are allowed.
 
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#6
The tournament I'm planning on going to (Jan 15th) will have a console, a Wii and a laptop setup. I'll use it as a trial, and intend to play on console and laptop at least. We'll see if it works.
 

s2j

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#7
"Black DK (Right-C), Dark Samus (Down-C) and Dark Falcon (Right-C) are discouraged if Congo Jungle is the stage for visibility reasons. The opposing player may reset the match without penalty if they wish for a colour change. Taking or dealing any damage nullifies this right."

unless the tv is ridiculously dark or ur opponent is seriously vision impaired i don't really like this rule. i don't use these colors though but sounds weird to me. I personally never had a problem with these colors on Kongo and unless you have a vision problem don't think it will affect many other people as well. having a stealth character on Kongo would be cool though

"Legal status of DK's Infinite Cargo Hold is left to Tournament Organiser discretion. It is recommended that the Cargo Hold be banned outright, though limiting to 2 releases may be viable. The following is how to escape the Cargo Hold, though outright banning is still encouraged.."

i disagree. having a 1 frame window of error makes it extremely difficult to do infinite grabs. a good number of the cast can mash out moves to escape like pika's up-b, mario/luigi's up-b (although u can bait it out from them and then punish.. mindgames time) and as shown by ant-d, you can mash a i guess

if u really can be frame perfect and regrab 100% consistently, i think u should be rewarded. there's probably only a handful of DK's who can probably regrab frame perfect as well. it's a noob trap imo and a noob trap only unless u are fighting some beast DK. even then there is the right-b and left-a method which i have never heard of lol

feel free to discuss my points if u disagree

--
rps is fine to me although with just 3 stages maybe you want absolute luck without even a tiny amount of skill involved so a coin flip is probably better..
 
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#8
The dark character thing isn't a huge deal, and I only brought it up because darth kicked up a fuss about a non-existent discussion in here.

I suppose the infinite grab should just be left to the TO then. ICs in brawl (i know this example from a podcast i listened to like a year ago) have chaingrabs that are easy 0-deaths if you are skilled enough to get grabs in the very, very short windows between the opponent being thrown and getting out of range, and they aren't banned.
 
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#9
if u really can be frame perfect and regrab 100% consistently, i think u should be rewarded. there's probably only a handful of DK's who can probably regrab frame perfect as well. it's a noob trap imo and a noob trap only unless u are fighting some beast DK. even then there is the right-b and left-a method which i have never heard of lol
The reward is too large given the skill needed (not that I'm underplaying what's needed... I know that it takes a decent amount of tech skill... particularly in the reflexes department). It only tests a single limited aspect of skill. Besides that, it's not really fun.

I'm totally against allowing infinite grab release, but 1-2 grab releases for strategic repositioning purposes should definitely be allowed.
 
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#10
I think I am the main proponent of the dark characters thing - so let me just say that it completely depends on what you are using to play.

On my computer screen I can see fine. It's hard to see on some dimmer TVs, particularly with recording equipment hooked up (which can dim the TV more).
 

dandan

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#11
i just know that if my opponent will not be willing to switch colors, and the suggestion is not in affect, i will always strike congo down.
 
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#12
I suppose the infinite grab should just be left to the TO then. ICs in brawl (i know this example from a podcast i listened to like a year ago) have chaingrabs that are easy 0-deaths if you are skilled enough to get grabs in the very, very short windows between the opponent being thrown and getting out of range, and they aren't banned.
Except that if the ICs do it correctly, the person being chaingrabbed can do NOTHING. Antdgar proved that DK's cargo "infinite" can be escaped.
 
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#13
I personally don't have a problem with dark colors on congo but I can definitely see why some people don't want to play with that. If it comes down to an intense tournament match, things can get heated and players are easily capable of making mistakes. They get nervous and in the intensity of battle their vision might not work perfectly and the characters could possibly blend into the stage. AFAIK this wouldn't happen on any other stage.

With the infinite cargo hold the problem is that not every character has a one frame attack, and even if they do it's often not good for doing so. Pikachu's is no doubt the best for escaping, then would come mario/luig/samus's up B. Fox's shine is one frame but it has very little range. Jigglypuff I don't think has anything so she'd suffer the most from this since DK can backthrow her to kill pretty easily.
 
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#14
The problem with the infinite cargo isn't that it's infinite, or overpowered or whatever.

The problem is that it will lead to an infinite stalling match where DK won't throw and the other character won't break out.

Plus it's just dumb :)
 
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#15
The problem with the infinite cargo isn't that it's infinite, or overpowered or whatever.

The problem is that it will lead to an infinite stalling match where DK won't throw and the other character won't break out.

Plus it's just dumb :)
wtf

Why would the other character not break out, when there's a guaranteed way to escape?

And if the other character refuses to break out, the DK can gain an advantage by going to the rapetent and doing combos, or throwing him off the edge and edgeguarding.
 
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#16
I was going under the assumption that you don't know this guaranteed escape method, as it seemed other people were ... (talking about 1 frame windows and stuff)

and given that you can always break out when DK is in the air, I don't think that DK would become overpowered even if he could do the things you mention.
 
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#17
Lol

Banning something because somebody doesn't know how to escape it?

Maybe drillshining should be banned in Melee because some people don't know how to do DI away from it.
 

dandan

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#18
i think there should not be a rule about that, i think dk usually has better options than to try a regrab that can be escaped from, and if he tries that as a major tactic, it should be on the opponent to learn how to punish that, as it is punishable.

however, as dk is my worst by far, i think i will let more experienced dk players voice their opinions on the matter (looking at you boom).
 
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#19
Lol

Banning something because somebody doesn't know how to escape it?

Maybe drillshining should be banned in Melee because some people don't know how to do DI away from it.
Are you reading my posts? What gives you the idea that I want to ban anything?

Even if it were impossible to escape I still wouldn't want to ban it, just prevent a situation where both characters are going to stall forever.
 
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#20
I thought the below quote implied that you wanted to ban it, my bad.
The problem is that it will lead to an infinite stalling match where DK won't throw and the other character won't break out.

Plus it's just dumb :)
Even so, we have rules against stalling, so that's not a problem.
 
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#21
I see how that post was a bit unclear

A ban doesn't even make sense unless you are going to say "DK players can't press the R button" lol

Anyway the reason I brought up the stalling thing is because it isn't totally clear who is stalling in that case - DK or the person who won't break out.
 
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#22
The reason I linked the post detailing how to escape it is because I'm not really in favour of banning it since it *is* escapable and is a matter of skill (reflexive) from both sides. I can see why it would be banned, since you can cruise by noobs simply by using that...

Guess we'll have to rely on people to play for FUN. Like NIXXXON.
 
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#23
If you guys are worried about stalling, I suggest that a rule be that if DK is cargoing somebody and neither player budges, DK has to throw or he's stalling. As in, if DK carries the opponent by walking all the way to the other side of the stage, it's still not stalling but if he's just standing still and waiting for the player to get out while the victim does not want to exit, THEN it's stalling.
 

s2j

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#24
I'd say if neither people do anything and after 2-3 eventual breakouts to regrab its stalling

reason why i don't think it should be completely banned is because a last life trick i used was to keep grabbing and make it look like i just wanted to regrab and then do a cargo suicide if they don't wanna break out

(the opponent eventually does breakout even if they do nothing right?)
 
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#26
The cargo hold lasts forever unless the victim does something - I remember refusing to do anything because my friend was being a jerk with it. (The timer ran out and I won in sudden death)
 

SheerMadness

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#27
Does DK's infinite even work vs any character? I know most jabs are fast enough to throw out before another grab.

Pika's up b, samus's up b, fox's shine. Not sure about Mario and Luigi's up b's.
 
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#28
Does DK's infinite even work vs any character? I know most jabs are fast enough to throw out before another grab.

Pika's up b, samus's up b, fox's shine. Not sure about Mario and Luigi's up b's.
See below.

If they escape within 47 frames then that is the only way to do it.

Escaping DK's Throw Trap:

To escape DK's Clasp, use the normal escape method: Smashing and pressing alternate buttons/directions. You can escape in 8 frames.

To escape the ITT you have to start by pressing Right+B as soon as you are on DK's back (you'll get some percentage), then follow that with Left+A etc... DK cannot grab you again if you do this. If DK grabs, it will go through you. If he turns around, you will be free to grab him. Even if the DK is perfect he cannot grab you.

If you cannot do the above method, then you should do the escape procedure, and mash A once you escape the first hold. If the DK player is 1 frame off then you will hit him before he can grab again. This method is easier but if the DK is perfect he will be able to grab.

1 frame off:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5731459134922078284

DK Can't Fthrow:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5888230683216723819

^The same for Kirby and all other characters
 
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#30
To escape the ITT you have to start by pressing Right+B as soon as you are on DK's back (you'll get some percentage), then follow that with Left+A etc... DK cannot grab you again if you do this. If DK grabs, it will go through you. If he turns around, you will be free to grab him. Even if the DK is perfect he cannot grab you.

If you cannot do the above method, then you should do the escape procedure, and mash A once you escape the first hold. If the DK player is 1 frame off then you will hit him before he can grab again. This method is easier but if the DK is perfect he will be able to grab.
this isnt 10 characters
 
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#31
If those are the only objections, I'm going to finalise it soon. The following are some other issues that I found vague:

Number of matches in sets/finals/grand finals
How to enforce time limits/anti-stalling measures
Emulator recommendations
Impartial umpiring for online matches, especially grand finals

Any other considerations you think are valid should be aired immediately. Don't even bother reading through to see if it's there, just post your considerations. I want to get the ruleset out soon.

Double post, sue me.
 

King Funk

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#32
If those are the only objections, I'm going to finalise it soon. The following are some other issues that I found vague:

Number of matches in sets/finals/grand finals
How to enforce time limits/anti-stalling measures
Emulator recommendations
Impartial umpiring for online matches, especially grand finals

Any other considerations you think are valid should be aired immediately. Don't even bother reading through to see if it's there, just post your considerations. I want to get the ruleset out soon.

Double post, sue me.
I think number of sets/finals/grand finals should be determined by the TO.

In my honest opinion, grand finals and wf's/lf's should have the same number of rounds. Imagine a player just lost WF's. Not only does he have to win LF's to have another shot at his opponent in GF's but he has to win EVEN MORE rounds (in TWO sets!)? That's quite unfair.

If I hosted a tournament it'd be:
- best of 3 normal sets
- best of 5 winners semis/losers quarters/losers semis
- best of 7 winners finals/losers finals/grand finals

Project64 1.7 is coming out soon, which will allow multiple p2p. It could be a great way to have an umpire.
 

dandan

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#35
unfortunately it does not look like the 1.7 emu is anywhere near complete, what people have is just a leaked alpha build.
that aside, the online plugin works with the old emu as well.

now, i believe, like funk, that the number of matches should be decided by the TO.
about the umpiring, there are two options. first, if the tournament is held on a server, the umpire can
spoof his ping so he gets really high delay (lets say 20 frames) thus you will know he will not cause any delay in the game.
if they want to p2p, you can use the new online client, however if he is farther away, he will add to the delay. i think there is a spectator option there that might not add to the delay, like give him individual delay, but i have not tested it out.
 
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#36
While the number of matches is ultimately left to the TO, a recommended ruleset is meant to be a reasoned guideline, so we can't just say that everything is left to the TO.
 

King Funk

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#37
While the number of matches is ultimately left to the TO, a recommended ruleset is meant to be a reasoned guideline, so we can't just say that everything is left to the TO.
What do you think about my formula then:
- best of 3 pools/early bracket sets
- best of 5 winners semis/losers quarters/losers semis
- best of 7 winners finals/losers finals/grand finals

And winners finals + losers finals, I repeat, HAS to have the same number of rounds as grand Finals or else it gives a stupid advantage to the one who won winners finals.
 

King Funk

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#39
Btw AA don't write "Loser's", write "Losers". Same for "Winners". Not a big deal but the way you write it is very uncommon.

Also you wrote that all sets except WF's, LF's and GF's are best of 3, without mentioning that WSF's, LQF's and LSF's were also exceptions. Imo just write:
"All sets with the exceptions below are best-of-3"
 
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#40
I think best of 5 as the standard is fine for online tournaments. Console tourneys are best of 3 due to larger sets eating up too much time, but this isn't an issue for online tournaments.

I would just leave it up to the TO.
 
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