Recommended Ruleset: 1st Revision

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#1
Competitive Recommended Ruleset

Competition Rules

Competition format is Double Elimination.
If possible, brackets are to be generated with a Random Number Generator (RNG). It is recommended Tournament Organisers have a consensus from players before any seeding/byes are placed in-bracket.

All sets with the exception of the below are best-of-3.
Winners Semis, Losers Quarters and Losers Semis are best-of-5.
Winners Finals, Losers Finals and Grand Finals are best-of-7.
Online matches are best-of-5, with Winners Finals, Losers Finals and Grand Finals best-of-7.

Set size is ultimately up to the Tournament Organiser, but these are general guidelines.

Game Settings

Mode: STOCK
Stocks: 5
Handicap: OFF
Team Attack: ON
Stage Select: ON
Damage: 100%
Item Switch: NONE
All Characters Available

Stages

The Starter Stage List consists of Congo Jungle, Hyrule Castle and Dream Land.
The Counterpick Stage List consists of Peach's Castle.

First match of all sets is selected by a 3-stage striking system with the Starter Stage List. An impartial observer/tournament organiser flips a coin to decide who strikes first. If this is impossible (online), whoever strikes first will be pre-decided by an RNG.

The 64 Recommended Ruleset uses the stage striking system. In this system, players take turns striking stages from the Starter Stage List until only one remains; these stages are not banned and can be counterpicked later in the set.

Use of Gameshark to manage stage hazards is up to the Tournament Organiser. Hyrule without tornadoes and Dreamland without Wind may treated as:
  • The same stage as their unchanged counterparts
  • Separate starter stages to be stricken (list: Congo, Hyrule, Hyrule w/o Tornadoes, Dream Land, Dream Land w/o Wind)
  • Both separate starter stages and counterpick stages
  • Counterpick stages only
Once again, this is left to the Tournament Organiser, who has a duty to inform players of his/her decision, even if that decision is to allow the players to choose. Note: other stages are not made legal just by removing hazards.

Characters

All characters are legal.

Black DK (Right-C), Dark Samus (Down-C) and Dark Falcon (Right-C) are discouraged if Congo Jungle is the stage for visibility reasons. The opposing player may reset the match without penalty if they wish for a colour change. Taking or dealing any damage nullifies this right.

Low Tiers are all characters in B tier and below: Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff, Ness, Luigi, Samus and Link.

Set Procedure
  • Players select characters for first match. Double Blind Picks may be called.
  • Players strike stages.
  • The first match is played.
  • The loser of the previous match selects the next match's stage from the Starter Stage and Counterpick Stage Lists.
  • The winner of the previous match selects their character.
  • The loser of the previous match selects their character.
  • The next match is played.
  • Above four steps are repeated if necessary.
General Guidelines for Console/Offline
  • Console is strongly recommended over using a Wii (frame skipping). A lagless laptop is usable, as it has no frame skipping, but console is still strongly recommended.
  • If there are requests to play using Gamecube controllers, a Wii with the Virtual Console version of Super Smash Bros. can be used. Alternatively, suitable PC adapters may be used.
  • If there are requests to play using a keyboard/non-Nintendo/third-party controllers, a laptop set-up is recommended. Each controller user is responsible for bringing relevant adapters and drivers (on a USB stick), and to calibrate their own controllers.
  • Tournament organisers should discuss and organise these arrangements beforehand.
  • It is recommended a 8/10 minute time limit is put in place for all matches, especially Hyrule. This may be difficult to enforce.
  • Draws are decided first by stock, then by percentage.
  • Disrupting your opponent physically or intending to disrupt their play will result in a warning. Repeated action will result in disqualification from the tournament. Observers who physically disrupt players are to be dealt with as the Tournament Organiser sees fit. Disqualification is recommended if possible.
  • Pausing is discouraged, and should only be done at the end of a stock, if at all. At other times, the pauser loses their current stock. If the pause causes the opponent to lose their stock, the pauser loses two stocks.
  • Extreme stalling is disallowed. Any reported case of such will result in a warning, followed by automatic forfeit of the match. If this is reported again, automatic forfeit is enforced without a warning. If there is no movement from either player, the player with fewer stocks/loser percentage is considered to be stalling.
  • Mages DQ is enforced. When a match is called, both players must promptly arrive. If a player is 2 minutes late, they receive a warning. At 4 minutes late, they lose the first game of the set and forfeit counterpick rights. At 6 minutes late, they forfeit the entire set.
  • Pool play should preceded brackets play if the number of participants is suitably large. This is left to the Tournament Organiser's discretion, given 64 has low dedicated attendance rates.
  • It is recommended that drugs*, including alcohol and caffeine, are prohibited at tournaments for the sake of both the venue and the participants. Legal issues are possible, and use of drugs in the vicinity of the venue by participants should be heavily discouraged or prohibited completely. Relevant Federal and State regulations on drugs obviously apply.
* Healthcare drugs such as insulin supplements (diabetes), Epi-pens (anaphalactics) or asthmatic inhalers (asthmatics) are exempt, given usage is by those suffering from the relevant conditions.

General Guidelines for Online
  • Tournament Organisers are responsible for drawing brackets, publicly showing brackets/rules and disqualification. The Smash 64 Competitive Events section is recommended for posting tournament threads. This includes deciding who will strike stages first via RNG.
  • Matches are to be played with P2P Kaillera clients. Recommended emulators include Project64k, Project64k Vista Edition and variants of Mupen64k, such as Mupen Beta++.
  • If a match is played on server, observers must ensure they will not cause lag or an increase in frame delay, and may not communicate with players once a match has started.
  • The North American (U) version of Super Smash Bros is strongly recommended over (E), (A), (I) versions. Using All-star! Dairantou Smash Brothers! (J) should be either a separate bracket or the theme of the tournament.
  • Desynchronisation in any single match will result in a restart of that match, with all previous successful matches counting. If possible, it is recommended that the exact stock and percentage at the point where desync occurred should be used. This may be difficult, especially if the desync occurs during a hard-to-escape combo, so if both players agree, resetting to just stock is okay.
  • If the frame rate consistently drops below 57fps and there is a clear offender, they will be given one more chance to replay that match - lagging again, even in a different match, will result in disqualification.
  • Disrupting your opponent or abuse through Kaillera should be reported via a Print Screen/equivalent function, and will result in disqualification from the tournament.
  • Pausing is discouraged, and should only be done at the end of a stock, if at all. At other times, the pauser loses their current stock. If the pause causes the opponent to lose their stock, the pauser loses two stocks.
  • Extreme stalling is disallowed. Enforcing is incredibly difficult. If it is reported, a server match with impartial observer is recommended to decide penalties fairly. Penalties are the same as Console penalties.
  • It is recommended that inactivity over a period (decided by the organiser) is met with warnings and/or disqualification.

Additional Doubles Rules
  • Life Stealing (pressing Start when eliminated) is allowed.
Legal status of DK's Infinite Cargo Hold is left to Tournament Organiser discretion. It is recommended that the Cargo Hold limited to 2 releases to prevent abuse. One opinion is that the Cargo Hold can be regarded as a stall. If time is being enforced, it may be considered as such after 2-3 re-releases with the throwing player not attempting to do anything with it. It is advisable that this is cumulative in order to prevent abuse of this rule by throwing other moves in-between.

The following is how to escape the Cargo Hold. The tournament organiser may wish to inform players of this if they are not restricting the Cargo Hold.
If they escape within 47 frames then that is the only way to do it.

Escaping DK's Throw Trap:

To escape DK's Clasp, use the normal escape method: Smashing and pressing alternate buttons/directions. You can escape in 8 frames.

To escape the ITT you have to start by pressing Right+B as soon as you are on DK's back (you'll get some percentage), then follow that with Left+A etc... DK cannot grab you again if you do this. If DK grabs, it will go through you. If he turns around, you will be free to grab him. Even if the DK is perfect he cannot grab you.

If you cannot do the above method, then you should do the escape procedure, and mash A once you escape the first hold. If the DK player is 1 frame off then you will hit him before he can grab again. This method is easier but if the DK is perfect he will be able to grab.

1 frame off:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5731459134922078284

DK Can't Fthrow:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5888230683216723819

^The same for Kirby and all other characters
This is only a recommended ruleset, and it is encouraged that Tournament Organisers take it and modify it as they see fit, while understanding the reasoning behind each of the recommendations and taking said reasons into account.

Other rules such as region-locking for online are left to the Tournament Organiser.

The above is the previous (read: current) edition of the ruleset.

Things requiring attention:
  • Clarifying how grand finals work - some people may not understand the concept of bracket reset
  • Gameshark stages - not to be enforced in the ruleset, but they should be included as an option, and hence their legality should be mentioned
  • WF/LF/GF - best-of-7? Seems a bit much at the moment. Best-of-5 seems more appropriate. Also,
    Additionally, I'm an advocate of best of 5 for any match where there's money directly on the line. This means winner's semis (winner is guaranteed 3rd) and loser's semis (winner is guaranteed 3rd) for tourneys that pay out top-3. I think it's a better justification for which matches are to be best of 5.
  • Hyrule legality - this is the big one I guess. Most people seem not to care too much for banning it, I'm just going with the flow at this point. Of course, banning Hyrule means revamping the stage list completely.
 
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Messages
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#2
tournaments are actually being held with the old ruleset, so we should update this at some point

im just going to write up two possible stagelists to reflect the opinion split between hyrule neutral and banned

Competitive Recommended Ruleset

Competition Rules

Competition format is Double Elimination.
If possible, brackets are to be generated with a Random Number Generator (RNG). It is recommended Tournament Organisers have a consensus from players before any seeding/byes are placed in-bracket.

All sets with the exception of the below are best-of-3.
Winners Semis, Losers Quarters and Losers Semis are best-of-5.
All Finals (Winners, Losers and Grand) are best-of-5.

Set size is ultimately up to the Tournament Organiser, but these are general guidelines.

Game Settings

Mode: STOCK
Stocks: 5
Handicap: OFF
Team Attack: ON
Stage Select: ON
Damage: 100%
Item Switch: NONE
All Characters Available

Stages

Stagelist Alpha: Hyrule Legal
The Starter Stage List consists of Congo Jungle, Hyrule Castle and Dream Land.
The Counterpick Stage List consists of Peach's Castle.

First match of all sets is selected by a 3-stage striking system with the Starter Stage List. An impartial observer/tournament organiser flips a coin to decide who strikes first. If this is impossible (online), whoever strikes first will be pre-decided by an RNG.

The 64 Recommended Ruleset uses the stage striking system for Stagelist Alpha. In this system, players take turns striking stages from the Starter Stage List until only one remains; these stages are not banned and can be counterpicked later in the set.

Stagelist Beta: Hyrule Banned
The Starter Stage is Congo Jungle.
The Counterpick Stage List consists of Dream Land and Peach's Castle.

Gameshark Stages
Use of Gameshark to manage stage hazards is up to the Tournament Organiser, who has a duty to inform players of his/her decision, even if that decision is to allow the players to choose. If not all setups are able to use Gameshark, use is discouraged. Note: In the case that Stagelist Beta is being used, removing tornadoes does not make Hyrule legal.

The recommendation for Gameshark Stages by the Backroom is:
Hyrule without Tornadoes: Same as Hyrule/Replacing Hyrule
Dream Land without Wind: Same as Dream Land/Replacing Dream Land
Battlefield: Starter (with Battlefield)/Counterpick
Metal Mario's Stage: Counterpick
Final Destination: Starter (with Battlefield)/Counterpick
How to Play: Banned
Kirby Beta 1: Banned
Kirby Beta 2: Banned
Race to the Finish: Banned


Characters

All characters are legal.

Black DK (Right-C), Dark Samus (Down-C) and Dark Falcon (Right-C) are discouraged if Congo Jungle is the stage for visibility reasons. The opposing player may reset the match without penalty if they wish for a colour change. Taking or dealing any damage nullifies this right.

Low Tiers are all characters in B tier and below: Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff, Ness, Luigi, Samus and Link.

Set Procedure
  • Players select characters for first match. Double Blind Picks may be called.
  • Players strike stages, or Congo is called (Stagelist Beta).
  • The first match is played.
  • The loser of the previous match selects the next match's stage from the Starter Stage and Counterpick Stage Lists.
  • The winner of the previous match selects their character.
  • The loser of the previous match selects their character.
  • The next match is played.
  • Above four steps are repeated if necessary.
Do note that there is no single stage strike for the winner of the previous match.

General Guidelines for Console/Offline
  • Console is strongly recommended over using a Wii (frame skipping). A lagless laptop is usable, as it has no frame skipping, but console is still strongly recommended.
  • If there are requests to play using Gamecube controllers, a Wii with the Virtual Console version of Super Smash Bros. can be used. Alternatively, suitable PC adapters may be used.
  • If there are requests to play using a keyboard/non-Nintendo/third-party controllers, a laptop set-up is recommended. Each controller user is responsible for bringing relevant adapters and drivers (on a USB stick), and to calibrate their own controllers.
  • Tournament organisers should discuss and organise these arrangements beforehand.
  • It is recommended a 8/10 minute time limit is put in place for all matches, especially Hyrule. This may be difficult to enforce.
  • Draws are decided first by stock, then by percentage.
  • Disrupting your opponent physically or intending to disrupt their play will result in a warning. Repeated action will result in disqualification from the tournament. Observers who physically disrupt players are to be dealt with as the Tournament Organiser sees fit. Disqualification is recommended if possible.
  • Pausing is discouraged, and should only be done at the end of a stock, if at all. At other times, the pauser loses their current stock. If the pause causes the opponent to lose their stock, the pauser loses two stocks.
  • Extreme stalling is disallowed. Any reported case of such will result in a warning, followed by automatic forfeit of the match. If this is reported again, automatic forfeit is enforced without a warning. If there is no movement from either player, the player with fewer stocks/loser percentage is considered to be stalling.
  • Mages DQ is enforced. When a match is called, both players must promptly arrive. If a player is 2 minutes late, they receive a warning. At 4 minutes late, they lose the first game of the set and forfeit counterpick rights. At 6 minutes late, they forfeit the entire set.
  • Pool play should preceded brackets play if the number of participants is suitably large. This is left to the Tournament Organiser's discretion, given 64 has low dedicated attendance rates.
  • It is recommended that drugs*, including alcohol and caffeine, are prohibited at tournaments for the sake of both the venue and the participants. Legal issues are possible, and use of drugs in the vicinity of the venue by participants should be heavily discouraged or prohibited completely. Relevant Federal and State regulations on drugs obviously apply.
* Healthcare drugs such as insulin supplements (diabetes), Epi-pens (anaphalactics) or asthmatic inhalers (asthmatics) are exempt, given usage is by those suffering from the relevant conditions.

General Guidelines for Online
  • Tournament Organisers are responsible for drawing brackets, publicly showing brackets/rules and disqualification. The Smash 64 Competitive Events section is recommended for posting tournament threads. This includes deciding who will strike stages first via RNG.
  • Matches are to be played with P2P Kaillera clients. Recommended emulators include Project64k, Project64k Vista Edition and variants of Mupen64k, such as Mupen Beta++.
  • If a match is played on server, observers must ensure they will not cause lag or an increase in frame delay, and may not communicate with players once a match has started.
  • The North American (U) version of Super Smash Bros is strongly recommended over (E), (A), (I) versions. Using All-star! Dairantou Smash Brothers! (J) should be either a separate bracket or the theme of the tournament.
  • Desynchronisation in any single match will result in a restart of that match, with all previous successful matches counting. If possible, it is recommended that the exact stock and percentage at the point where desync occurred should be used. This may be difficult, especially if the desync occurs during a hard-to-escape combo, so if both players agree, resetting to just stock is okay.
  • If the frame rate consistently drops below 57fps and there is a clear offender, they will be given one more chance to replay that match - lagging again, even in a different match, will result in disqualification.
  • Disrupting your opponent or abuse through Kaillera should be reported via a Print Screen/equivalent function, and will result in disqualification from the tournament.
  • Pausing is discouraged, and should only be done at the end of a stock, if at all. At other times, the pauser loses their current stock. If the pause causes the opponent to lose their stock, the pauser loses two stocks.
  • Extreme stalling is disallowed. Enforcing is incredibly difficult. If it is reported, a server match with impartial observer is recommended to decide penalties fairly. Penalties are the same as Console penalties.
  • It is recommended that inactivity over a period (decided by the organiser) is met with warnings and/or disqualification.

Additional Doubles Rules
  • Life Stealing (pressing Start when eliminated) is allowed.
Legal status of DK's Infinite Cargo Hold is left to Tournament Organiser discretion. It is recommended that the Cargo Hold limited to 2 releases to prevent abuse. One opinion is that the Cargo Hold can be regarded as a stall. If time is being enforced, it may be considered as such after 2-3 re-releases with the throwing player not attempting to do anything with it. It is advisable that this is cumulative in order to prevent abuse of this rule by throwing other moves in-between.

The following is how to escape the Cargo Hold. The tournament organiser may wish to inform players of this if they are not restricting the Cargo Hold.
If they escape within 47 frames then that is the only way to do it.

Escaping DK's Throw Trap:

To escape DK's Clasp, use the normal escape method: Smashing and pressing alternate buttons/directions. You can escape in 8 frames.

To escape the ITT you have to start by pressing Right+B as soon as you are on DK's back (you'll get some percentage), then follow that with Left+A etc... DK cannot grab you again if you do this. If DK grabs, it will go through you. If he turns around, you will be free to grab him. Even if the DK is perfect he cannot grab you.

If you cannot do the above method, then you should do the escape procedure, and mash A once you escape the first hold. If the DK player is 1 frame off then you will hit him before he can grab again. This method is easier but if the DK is perfect he will be able to grab.

1 frame off:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5731459134922078284

DK Can't Fthrow:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5888230683216723819

^The same for Kirby and all other characters
This is only a recommended ruleset, and it is encouraged that Tournament Organisers take it and modify it as they see fit, while understanding the reasoning behind each of the recommendations and taking said reasons into account.

Other rules such as region-locking for online are left to the Tournament Organiser.

Copy-paste Printer-friendly Ruleset said:


Mode: STOCK
Stocks: 5
Handicap: OFF
Team Attack: ON
Stage Select: ON
Damage: 100%
Item Switch: NONE
All Characters Available

Stages

Congo Jungle, Hyrule Castle, Dream Land

Peach's Castle

Counterpick Stages

i intend to write up a joke ruleset for april fools' release
 
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#4
i forget exactly what was wrong with the how to play stage but meh

metal mario stage changed to CP (because neutral means the stage strike numbers are jerky...although it might actually be fairer than battlefield, idk)
 
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#5
The how to play camera is ****ing horrible

Now explain to me (in regards to Stage List Beta) what the point of one than more counterpick is
 
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#6
...because i feel that those three stages are tournament-viable? (and i personally think DL might be CP-worthy, but i digress...)

odd numbers of neutral stages are standard to give both players some level of control over the stage choice as opposed to giving the RPS winner a lot more control (in this specific instance, they would essentially get to pick the stage), hence single neutral and not DL/CJ

we all know (or at least i do) how you feel about the concept of counterpicks, but i see no reason to get rid of peach's from a competitive standpoint...if anything peach's would be a better counterpick than DL would, some low tiers (link, ness) are arguably better there

what logic are you following in relation to a single counterpick stage anyway?
 
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#9
I was kind of confused by your post aa but I think we have a misunderstanding. I think all three stages should be on the stage-strike list, not one counterpick and two neutrals or something.

There's no point in having excluding two stages from the stage-strike neutrals IMO. I was asking what your reasoning is for not having all three stages as "starter" stages.

Your second paragraph of "an odd number of stages is standard" actually falls right into line with my thinking, not against it.

I can see how my original post was confusing. What I meant is I am of the opinion that there should be at most one counterpick, like with the 4 stage list (to ensure there is an odd number of stages to strike). Sorry about being unclear ;P
 
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#10
oh, i see

nvm me then, it was a misunderstanding through and through

i would not be strongly opposed to just having the three as neutral, i just think peach's is still a bit wonky
 
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#11
Well, if it's not "wonky" enough to be banned I don't see the point of excluding it as a starter. If it's not the most balanced stage out of the three for the match-up it should get striked anyways.
 
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#12
if we can come to some semblance of an agreement...i would like at least 4 people, me excluded, to say whether they prefer

a) congo neutral, DL/peach CP
b) DL neutral, congo/peach CP
c) all three neutral

and ill probably come to an eventual decision

don't worry, when i make that decision ill keep in mind that im a terrible link player who can't write a proper ruleset to save his life
 
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Messages
9,681
#16
Okay, I mad. SOMEBODY give me the reasoning for having two counter pick stages. It does not make sense.

The term "counterpick stage" is a relic of the old Melee stage system where the first stage was randomly selected amongst a list of "neutrals". Meaning that counterpick stages were the ones deemed not balanced enough to be randomly selected first round, but not too unfair to pick if the winner of the previous match is given the opportunity to switch his character. Now, that's obviously a flawed system, but the point is, dividing legal stages into neutral and counterpick is to avoid people being "gayed" by a stage after choosing their character. There's no point in doing this if people are going to strike the most disadvantageous stage for the match-up. I mean, that's the point of the ****ing strike system. This is not 2006 Melee, guys. I have a feeling this is just a case of "lol I don't like Peach's Castle"
 
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#17
I don't entirely grasp your point...it seems like you just hate the old counterpick system or something.

Don't look at it from the perspective of the 'counterpick system', look at it from a neutrality perspective. Hyrule aside, i feel Peach's, Congo and DL are all tournament-worthy stages, but that Peach's is a bit lopsided in comparison (and DL too, but that's for another day): do you agree with me?

If we're looking to make things as neutral as possible for competitors, you start on the most neutral of the available stages (DL, according to boom/nintendude etc), then open up the others as 'extra' stages - am I missing something in my reasoning?

My point is, I don't think Peach's is on the same level as the other two in terms of neutrality (and it's not a little discrepancy like Congo vs DL, it's one stemming from a more active random factor that can occasionally change the game outcome). It's for that reason I don't like a 3-stage starter with Peach's included. I have no objection to the stage striking system and no love for whatever counterpick system you're talking about: I just think Peach's is too gippy to ever be a starter but playable regardless.
 
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#18
Er, I don't really know how to make you comprehend my point without some restating... But my main point is "dividing legal stages into neutral and counterpick is to avoid people being 'gayed' by a stage after choosing their character". If Peach's Castle is not balanced for whatever match-up, it'll get striked. Maybe you think it's lopsided enough so that it'll always get striked and will never be the first stage chosen, but if it's that unbalanced it probably shouldn't be legal in the first place.

I'm not sure why I care though because Dreamland only would probably benefit me and make me more comfortable. I guess it's the usual "Star King trying to look at things from an objective perspective".
 
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#19
If you want I'll rephrase the 'counterpick stage list' to 'List of not-quite-as-neutral stages that were tacked on and couldn't be called CP because Star King hates the concept'.

Do you really think Peach's is neutral-worthy? Really? I don't even care about the concept of counterpicks, I don't play Melee and couldn't care less about the poorly reasoned history behind it. And it seems other people agree with me. Honestly, I'm just going with the majority's opinion, all the tourneys I run will be using the first stagelist anyway, or the april fools list.

And yeah after I kill some random stuff like Mages DQ etc I'm posting it, I assume Nintendude is ok with it.
 
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#20
If you want I'll rephrase the 'counterpick stage list' to 'List of not-quite-as-neutral stages that were tacked on and couldn't be called CP because Star King hates the concept'.
I know this isn't serious, but not sure how this even... makes sense as a joke. IDK. Getting the impression you don't get it.

Do you really think Peach's is neutral-worthy? Really?
Yeah, I guess you still don't get it. If it's legal-worthy, it's neutral-worthy. Maybe I'm not getting my ideas across well.

Whatever, go ahead and leave it as it is if you want.
 
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#21
I at least understand you think those three stages are all neutral-worthy. From what I understand, you think that the stage strike system will balance out any dumb neutral stages? Might be theoretically sound, but I can't get behind that simply because I would rather the first game always be played on 'the most neutral' stage, and if it's not Congo, it'll have to be Dreamland. If that's still not it, then whatever. I usually understand what you say quite well, but this time you're not coming across quite as coherently.

I've decided that the major motivation for putting that stagelist in to appease everyone who wants Hyrule banned, and those who want to kill Hyrule also all seem to want DL solo neutral, so yeah. Logic and terminology be damned.
 
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#22
I would rather the first game always be played on 'the most neutral' stage, and if it's not Congo, it'll have to be Dreamland.
Wah? If that's what you think then why support a stage strike system in the Hyrule stage list?

If that's still not it, then whatever. I usually understand what you say quite well, but this time you're not coming across quite as coherently.
I know :(

I've decided that the major motivation for putting that stagelist in to appease everyone who wants Hyrule banned, and those who want to kill Hyrule also all seem to want DL solo neutral, so yeah. Logic and terminology be damned.
Fine by me
 
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#24
.


You said "I would rather the first game always be played on 'the most neutral' stage".

This contradicts supporting a stage strike system. Which you voted for in that poll you made. Not for whatever single stage you feel is "most neutral".

I don't get it.
 
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#25
I'm assuming that other people think DL is the most neutral stage, or at least equally as neutral as Congo (but more appropriate).

Not my personal opinion, since 1) i think that Congo is more neutral and 2) i already said i would be using the first stagelist with stage strike

basically i don't want peach's being first stage
 
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#26
Still contradicting yourself in regards to the original strike list. Unless you think Hyrule, Congo, and Dreamland are all equally neutral.

Never mind. I give up.
 
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