Rebalancing/Redesigning Roy

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Aug 9, 2015
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Mini-Redesign/Rebalance Threads

:ultmario: Mario

:ultdk: Donkey Kong

:ultkirby: Kirby

:ultbrawler: Mii Brawler
So quickly after finishing my Jigglypuff redesign thread, I decided to start on yet another character who has been unappreciated balance wise. And this time, it's a character I don't really care much for playing, yet am strangely fascinated with his concept and how he can be made into a much better character without resorting to such things I've been seeing as of late.

For the two people who have actually been following this cavalcade of ramblings from a mad man obsessed with Smash and game design, I will be working on the moves over the next week or more, trying to fully solidify a complete moveset. I only start these sorts of threads when I have an overall idea in my head.

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Like with all of my "rebalancing" exercises, I will showcase what I believe the character's purposes should be overall, as well as the strengths and weaknesses they should have.

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Roy:ultroy:

Purpose: Close range scrapper/Defensive punisher/Non-initiator

Strengths should be:

High damage combos
Fantastic retaliation ability
Decent shield pressure
Great at punishing offensive mistakes
Many disjoints

Weaknesses should be:

Lackluster frame data
Relies on optimal close range
Below average priority
Lackluster recovery
Prone to being punished heavily

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Let's go through the usual, general statistics of our boy. As always, most of these will involve universal changes I would give to all the characters, and for them, I will give a relative viewpoint of where Roy stands overall.

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General Statistics::ultroy:
  • Medium weight
  • High walk speed
  • Medium-low dash speed
    • (Walk speed and run speed would be more compacted for the slowest and fastest characters. With this in mind, Roy would have slower dash movement but far higher walk speed than in Smash 4)
  • High horizontal air speed
  • Standardized first jump
    • (All first jumps for all characters will be the same height: around 80% the height of the top platform in Battlefield)
  • Average double jump height
    • (Baseline for double jump will be lower than it is now, but varied between characters: Roy's new jump height would be about 70% of his current double jump height in Smash 4)
  • Above average fall speed
  • High fast fall speed
  • Wall Jump (All characters will be able to wall jump, but not all can wall cling)
  • Above average roll distance
    • (All characters will have the same frame data on rolls, with the only real variance between them being distance)
  • High shield health
    • (Shield health would now differ between characters, with the baseline being 100 shield health. Roy's would have 140)

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So not too much changes compared to Smash 4 besides the universal stuff. Roy's roll would be better than usual in order to make sure he can fully dodge things from even longer range characters. Roy's first jump would be higher overall and he can wall jump like everyone can, improving his overall vertical mobility. He also still has his high air speed, though I would personally give him a bit more. His fall speed is the same, in order to make sure he is punished if he messes up, if only a bit, by getting comboed easier than the average middleweight character.

The big changes are to his shield health and walk and run speeds. Since Roy's entire motif is to plan against enemy attacks, having higher walk speed would be to make sure he has all of his tools at his disposal while approaching, but his speed in dash should take a hit to encourage this, so lower dash speed for him too. Now dashing is more for closing distance from launching the enemy more than approaching outright. As for more shield health, this is to give Roy much more leeway against shield pressure, as well as be able to find more of the right places to counterattack the enemy who is going offensive on him.

Now to the moves... but first, a little extra trait

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:GCLT::GCN:All dodges:

  • Special trait: Unbound Fury: After doing any kind of dodge, the Binding Blade will glow with fiery power for 2 seconds, giving it 50% more hitstun for that time. If Roy is hit during this, the buff will immediately end and Roy will take 20% more hitstun from that hit

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I honestly love Bayonetta's trait system, since it can give a lot of new life into characters. I think this would work immensely well for Roy. I already did it with Jigglypuff where she would be able to use jumps during midair moves, but here, it's a bit more subdued, and fits into Roy's strengths AND weaknesses.

The obvious out of the way; more hitstun will help with combos immensely and may even create new ones, and it favors a patient Roy player who makes sure his dodges are used well and he isn't retaliated against. As a downside, if Roy is hit, this buff ends and he takes more hitstun, punishing the bad Roy player who doesn't read the opponent well. However, this goes back to Roy's high shield health giving him more leeway for this. If you don't want to dodge but still want to be defensive, you have one of the best shields in the game to fall back on, making this penalty still manageable.

However, another potential balancing factor is the new staling dodge mechanic, making this more rarely used than at first glance. Nevertheless, Roy has plenty of pokes to work with to refresh the dodges, so it's a matter of resource management.

Overall, this plays with Roy's strength of high damage combos, countering the opponents, and his weakness of being easy to take advantage of by countering his counter. However, don't think this gimmick makes or breaks the character. I'm only getting started. ;)

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:GCA: Jab:

  • Reverse gripped upper cut with the sword close to the chest. Has two sweetspots at the hilt and body and sourspot on the blade of the sword
  • Very fast startup
  • Average endlag
  • Knockback on sweetspots is upwards at 65 degrees
    • Knockback on sourspot is sideways at 40 degrees
  • Barely safe on shield for all hitboxes
  • Below average shield damage
  • Very low base knockback for combos
  • Below average priority on all hitboxes
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Sweetspots: 7.5%
    • Sourspot: 4.8%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sweetspots: 800%
    • Sourspot: 999%

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Not much changing this move other than it being safe on shield at all ranges, playing into Roy's ability to shield pressure. Overall, a good combo starter move, and quite safe to just put out. Not much changing this move.

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:GCA::GCR: FTilt:

  • An overhead reverse grip slash with the sword. Has two sweetspots on the body and hilt and a sourspot on the blade of the sword
  • Low startup
  • High endlag
  • Barely safe on shield for sweetspots
    • Barely unsafe on sourspot
  • Low shield damage
  • Below average priority
  • Knockback for all hitboxes is at the Sakurai angle
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Sweetspots: 13.0%
    • Sourspot: 7.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sweetspots: 130%
    • Sourspot: 230%

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Yet another quick swipe that is overall safe on shield, but more so on the sweetspot this time, while the sourspot is technically unsafe, but not enough to really retaliate against Roy. The difference between this and the Jab is mostly the kill potential of this move. However, it is prone to being whiff punished due to the high endlag, fitting in with Roy's overall weakness. It also plays into his strength of counters, given the low startup of this potential kill move.

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:GCA::GCU: UTilt:

  • Quick arcing reverse grip slash above the head. Has a sweetspot on the hilt of the sword and a sourspot on the blade of the sword
  • Slightly lingering hitbox
  • Very fast startup
  • High endlag
  • Knockback on sweetspot is upwards slightly behind at 100 degrees
    • Knockback on sourspot is slightly upwards to the side at 80 degrees
  • Safe on shield for both hitboxes if hit late
    • Barely unsafe when hit early
  • Low shield damage
  • Higher than average hitstun for both hitboxes
  • Very low base knockback for combos
  • Knockback is independent of damage of the move
  • Slightly increased DI deviation
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Sweetspot: 11.4%
    • Soutspot: 5.6%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sweetspot: 200%
    • Sourspot: 500%

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This is one of Roy's main combo starters, and because of some special exceptions to this move, its damage is very high for a combo starter that can potentially combo into itself with the higher hitstun. However, it has a bit more DI deviation available, making it potentially unreliable without reading the opponent heavily. It is also safe on shield for both hits, but moreso if done late. It also has the tilts' trait of very low startup allowing for instant comboing of people who mess up.

However, it still has the problem of high endlag for Roy to get whiff punished with, and the sourspot can create strange knockback angles along with the higher DI to sometimes allow the enemy to get free. Nevertheless, this move is still a nice grounded combo starter for Roy to work with.

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:GCA::GCD:DTilt:

  • A quick downward stab forward on the ground. Has a sweetspot on the hilt and a sourspot on the blade of the sword.
  • Below average priority
  • Very fast startup
  • Average endlag
  • No shield damage
  • Barely safe on shield for both hitboxes
  • Knockback is sideways on grounded opponents at 30 degrees for both hitboxes
    • Knockback is upwards on aerial opponents at 60 degrees for both hitboxes
  • Below average hitstun on sourspot
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Sweetspot: 10.0%
    • Sourspot: 5.5%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sweetspot (grounded): 180%
    • Sweetspot (aerial): 230%
    • Sourspot (grounded): 250%
    • Sourspot (aerial): 300%

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The usual safe shield pressure tool with very fast startup and semi-spammable ability with the average endlag. The main difference I would put in place is having the move pop up aerial opponents so it isn't so good at ledgeguarding, but can potentially allow for combos if hitting the sweetspot after a dodge with the new trait. And on the ground, it is still techable, allowing for mindgames.

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:GCR::GCR::GCA:Dash Attack:

  • New move: Ignites the Binding Blade and in a reverse grip, rams forward with the sword right in front of his body dealing multiple hits, and finishes with a diagonal reverse grip slash upwards. Destroys projectiles throughout the move. Can control the duration of the move by holding the attack button
    • (Projectile destruction is a universal aspect of all dash attacks)
    • Will perform the slash when the attack button is let go
    • Can hold the attack for up to 1.2 seconds
    • Can reach about a third of Final Destination maximum
    • Can go through shields during the charge
  • Average priority
  • Extremely fast startup
  • Average endlag
    • The longer it is pressed, the more endlag it gains
  • Immediate cancel is unsafe on shield
    • The longer it is pressed, the more safe on shield it becomes
  • Below average shield damage
    • The longer it is pressed, the more shield damage it deals
  • Knockback is upwards at 70 degrees
  • Maximum multihits from the charge is 8
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Initial hit: 1.2%
    • Final hit: 3.8%
    • Multihit: 1.1%
    • Minimum damage: 5.0%
    • Maximum damage: 13.8%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Final hit minimum charge: 170%
    • Final hit maximum charge: 100%

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The first new move to differentiate from Marth even more, as well as work with the strengths and weaknesses I would give Roy. This charging move would give Roy some quick options to close the distance. First off, the projectile destruction is part of my universal addition to dash attacks, but it would be really good for Roy in this case since he can prolong his dash attack for quite a while. But besides that, this move uncharged is a good combo starter due to the average endlag and good angle it hits. If you charge it, you are rewarded with more shield pressure however.

Keep in mind that since this goes through shields, the charge can potentially open Roy up if he doesn't gauge when to end the charge. On top of that, an enemy could easily trick a Roy into charging for too long by rolling towards him. However, because of the combo potential of the less charged versions of this, Roy could potentially play mindgames with this move and force the opponent into a decision they shouldn't take due to its good fake out potential.

If you all are wondering about the application of this, know that not only would I bring back some form of wavedashing or back dash if I could, but also allow dash attacks to be used immediately out of dash, meaning Roy can potentially back dash, gain Unbound Fury, and use this in place for a good setup/tech chase option while also increasing its already good combo potential.

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:GCCR:FSmash:

  • A powerful lunging, two handed sword slash. Has a sweetspot on the body and hilt of the sword and a sourspot on the blade
  • Below average priority
  • Knockback is at the Sakurai angle for all hitboxes
  • Unsafe on shield for all hitboxes
  • Knocks back shielded opponents
    • Knocks back further on sweetspot hit
  • Very high shield damage
  • Average startup
  • Very high endlag
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Sweetspots: 20.0%-28.0%
    • Sourspot: 13.2%-18.5%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sweetspots: 80%-60%
    • Sourspot: 125%-100%

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So Roy's strongest smash attack is still pretty much the same. However, I would lower its priority to keep Roy's weakness consistent and lower its kill potential at least a little bit, while also increasing its shield pushback and damage so it can be used as a brute force shield pressure tool. This means its lack of safety on shield is mostly by frames and not by what the enemy can do to you, which can potentially force an offensive decision out of the enemy they might regret, furthering Roy's role of defensive punisher.

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:GCCU:USmash:

  • New move: Roy will kneel downward and stab his ignited Binding Blade skyward. Does 6 consecutive hits on the sweetspot at the hilt of the sword and one quick hit on the sourspot on blade of the sword.
    • Roy kneeling lowers his hurtbox to below crouch level, allowing for quick dodges
    • Has close range hitboxes on both sides of Roy's body to knock them into the sword stab
    • Sourspot activates a bit later than the sweetspot to allow for falling enemies to be caught in the sweetspot before the sourspot can hit them
  • Above average startup
  • High endlag
  • Above average shield damage
  • Unsafe on shield
  • Extremely low priority
  • Knockback is exactly upwards at 90 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Sweetspot multihit: 1.8%-2.5% * 5
    • Sweetspot final hit: 4.0%-4.2%
    • Total: 13.0%-18.2%
    • Sourspot: 6.5%-9.1%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sweetspot final hit: 125%-100%
    • Sourspot: 155%-130%

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So looking up Ryu's crazy moveset and how to fix him up (probably will do him soon if I have the motivation lol), I noticed his kneeling during his Up Smash was really cool to dodge landings. I think Roy should have this too, considering his strength of punishing offensive mistakes. However, it would come with a slight price of having a sourspot on the blade that only hits once, but since the sourspot would only emerge after the sweetspot, and the sweetspot outprioritizes the sourspot, then catching a landing or aerial harassment move with the sweetspot would still be doable. Other than the sourspot addition and the quick kneeling, this move isn't much different from his old USmash.

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:GCCD:DSmash:

  • New move: Will quickly stab downwards in both directions with the Binding Blade in front and the secondary Rapier in the back. Binding Blade has a sweetspot on the hilt and sourspot on the blade, while the Rapier has one hitbox
    • Both weapons have the same hitbox range
  • Average startup
  • Extremely low priority
  • Average endlag
  • High shield damage on rapier
    • Average shield damage on Binding Blade for both hitboxes
  • Knockback for Rapier is at the Sakurai angle
    • Knockback for Binding Blade sweetspot is upwards at 75 degrees
      • Knockback for Binding Blade sourspot is sideways at 30 degrees
  • Safe on shield for Rapier
    • Unsafe on shield for Binding Blade for both hitboxes
  • Lower than average hitstun on Rapier
    • Higher than average hitstun on Binding Blade sweetspot
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Rapier: 11.0%-15.4%
    • Binding Blade sweetspot: 18.0%-25.2%
    • Binding Blade sourspot: 10.0%-14.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Rapier: 95%-75%
    • Binding Blade sweetspot: 150%-125%
    • Binding Blade sourspot: 170%-150%

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So this is a new move for Roy that actually uses his Rapier from the games he's from! This seems complicated since two weapons are in use, but think of it like this:

Binding Blade side is a high damage combo starter, which is rare in the world of Smash. However, it still has its sourspot on the blade which is mostly used for pushing away enemies or causing tech chases. The extra hitstun also helps in its comboing endeavor. The downside of this side is that it is unsafe on shield.

The Rapier side is mainly as a kill move and a shield poker. However, it does far less damage and less hitstun while launching at the Sakurai angle, which ruins its followup potential and makes hit opponents at lower percents able to quickly retaliate against Roy.

Considering I would DEFINITELY give the ability to reverse Down Smash if I could, I could see this multipurpose move being very useful, especially against rolls. However, its split nature means an opponent who reads a Roy player well can go towards the side which benefits them more, thus playing into how Roy can be easily countered if making mistakes of his own, just as he can do to enemies.

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:GCX::GCA:NAir:

  • Diagonal strike downwards, followed by a full revolution with the sword for a second hit. Has a sweetspot on the hit of the sword, and a sourspot on the blade
    • First and second strikes naturally lead into each other if sweetspot is hit, but not sourspot
  • Very low shield damage
  • Extremely low priority
  • Barely unsafe on shield for both hitboxes when landing or when airborne
  • Low startup
  • High endlag
  • Average landing lag
  • Lower than average hitstun on sourspot
  • Knockback on first hit sweetspot is upwards at 80 degrees
    • Knockback on first hit sourspot is sideways at 50 degrees
  • Knockback on second hit sweetspot is upwards at 60 degrees
    • Knockback on second hit sourspot is sideways at 35 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • First hit sweetspot: 5.2%
    • First hit sourspot: 3.5%
    • Second hit sweetspot: 9.8%
    • Second hit sourspot: 4.5%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • First hit sweetspot: 600%
    • First hit sourspot: 340%
    • Second hit sweetspot: 200%
    • Second hit sourspot: 340%

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Roy's main approaching aerial. I would give it a bit of relative risk by making it not safe on shield, but just barely enough for Roy to get a dodge in to read the opponent's reaction. Otherwise, this move is mostly used as a combo starter, though I would give it a bit more landing lag to stifle its offensive ability and make it riskier to just throw out, along with the higher endlag. It also has abysmal priority, making it able to be stuffed out even at close range by most characters, making it lackluster as a defensive combo escaper.

Despite all of this, the sourspot pushes back, still giving it some spacing utility, and when fully used with the second hit on both sweetspots, comes to a huge amount of 15% damage plus the ability to combo into other aerials at most percentages, making it still a fantastic combo starter should Roy get the opening he needs.

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:GCX::GCR::GCA: FAir:

  • High range overhead swing in the front. Has two sweetspots on the body and hilt and a sourspot on the blade of the sword
  • Extremely low priority
  • Knockback is independent of the damage of this move
  • Increased DI deviation
  • Slightly lower hitstun on sourspot
  • Average startup
  • Low endlag
  • High landing lag
  • Low shield damage
  • Unsafe on shield for all hitboxes when landing
  • Barely safe on shield for all hitboxes when not landing
  • Low base knockback for combos
  • Knockback on all hitboxes is at the Sakurai angle
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Sweetspots: 12.2%
    • Sourspot: 6.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sweetspots: 200%
    • Sourspot: 400%

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So consider this a much more extreme version of NAir. It is much more unsafe on shield, even when airborne, making it an even worse approach option. However, it is barely safe when in the air regardless, giving it some defensive utility on the ledge, both coming back and guarding. The real power of this move is the high damage without the changing knockback, meaning this knockback is not affected by this particular move's high damage output. This combined with its low endlag without landing makes it able to combo into itself if you hit the sweetspots; the sourspot has less hitstun though. This makes it even better than NAir for damage purposes.

The caveat with this power is higher DI deviation, but because of Roy's new Unbound Fury trait giving him extra hitstun, this most likely will just mean Roy players will have to get creative with their offense, which is a fair tradeoff for such high damage combos.

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:GCX::GCL::GCA: BAir:

  • New move: Leans forward a fair distance while taking out a secondary rapier and doing a quick reverse grip stab. Has a sweetspot on the rapier and a sourspot on the body.
    • Before the hitbox comes out, Roy will quickly move his body forward, allowing for quick dodges
  • Slightly higher range than Roy's usual attacks
  • High startup
  • Above average endlag
  • High landing lag
  • Extremely low priority
  • Knockback for both hitboxes is at the Sakurai angle
  • Average shield damage
  • Unsafe on shield for both hitboxes
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Sweetspot: 17.8%
    • Sourspot: 8.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sweetspot: 85%
    • Sourspot: 120%

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So this is supposed to be Roy's designated aerial "juking" tool, where he can quickly dodge and retaliate with good spacing or even read a directional air dodge, leading to a pretty early kill or lots of damage. The frame data on the move overall is pretty bad however and it's unsafe on shield, so this is more a special tool that I thought of that would work with Roy's motif.

Also, he uses his secondary rapier like in his game and like with DSmash, firstly because it wouldn't make sense for the Binding Blade to work with a move like this since the hilt would be near Roy's body while the dodged opponent would be at the blade, thus giving a visual reason why he can destroy an opponent with the tip of his sword, and secondly because Roy and Marth need more differentiation lol. Though you might see me use the Rapier in a couple more moves to differentiate him and Marth as well as allow for him to follow his strength of being good at capitalizing on opponent's mistakes.

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:GCX::GCU::GCA: UAir:

  • New move: Swings his sword behind and upwards, leaving the sword above him for a moment. Has a sweetspot on the hilt and sourspot on the blade of the sword. Also has an early hitbox and late hitbox corresponding to both sweetspots and sourspots.
    • Early hitboxes are during the backwards part of the swing, while the late hitboxes are during the upwards stab
    • Has a blind spot in front of Roy
  • Extremely low priority
  • Knockback is independent of the damage from this move
  • Slightly increased DI deviation
  • Below average startup
  • Above average endlag
  • Above average landing lag
  • Average shield damage
  • Barely unsafe on shield when landing with early hitboxes
    • Unsafe when hitting the late hitboxes on shield
  • Knockback angle for early hitboxes is upwards behind Roy at 100 degrees
    • Knockback angle for late hitboxes is upwards in front of Roy at 80 degrees
  • Higher than average hitstun for both sweetspots
  • Lower than average base knockback to allow for sweetspot combos
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Early sweetspot: 9.7%
    • Late sweetspot: 12.0%
    • Early sourspot: 5.0%
    • Late sourspot: 7.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Early sweetspot: 180%
    • Late sweetspot: 150%
    • Early sourspot: 250%
    • Late sourspot: 220%

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Another new aerial, but for a few reasons. One, since this hits back AND upwards, it compensates for the new back aerial being rather specialized by still allowing Roy to hit in the back of him in the air pretty freely. Two, another differentiation between Marth's moves since Roy's clearly more than a semi-clone with Ultimate giving him his own number. Three, some newer stats to fall under Roy's new strengths and weaknesses.

First off, this is another combo damage move similar to FAir, except unlike FAir, this can't really hit in front of Roy, making it more for shark style combos and messing with people on platforms for example. And like his other aerials, it has plenty of openings the enemy can exploit just as Roy can exploit theirs. It has pretty fast startup, but the endlag is high unlike FAir, and the landing lag is high like all his other aerials, so unless you actually hit a shield, you will be punished heavily on landing.

However, if you hit, you will pop the enemy up in the air with the early back hit sweetspot, and since the hitstun is higher, it allows for combos to start despite the high landing lag. And just like FAir, it again has the property of ignoring the high damage of the move to allow for smoother knockback scaling when comboing into itself, which it is able to despite the higher endlag due to the new Unbound Fury trait giving extra hitstun. And this again comes at the price of slightly increased DI deviation for the enemy, so it still won't be easy to do so.

Lastly, this is Roy's sharking tool, and despite it's super low priority causing even the sweetspots to be stuffed out usually (like all of his aerials), the sourspot still has the range to cause the opponent to be weary, so don't think this move is just for comboing. I know how much Roy players love his UAir, so hopefully I have appeased them with this new addition.

Please don't hurt me. >_<

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:GCX::GCD::GCA:DAir:

  • A full swing downwards between the legs. Has a sweetspot on the hilt that can meteor smash aerial opponents and a sourspot on the blade of the sword that does not
  • Below average priority
  • Knockback on sweetspot on aerial opponents is fully downwards at 270 degrees
    • Knockback on sweetspot on grounded opponents is upwards at 80 degrees
      • Sweetspot is untechable when hitting grounded opponents
    • Knockback on sourspot is upwards at 45 degrees
  • Above average shield damage on sweetspot, below average for sourspot
  • Unsafe on shield for both hitboxes
  • Above average startup
  • High endlag
  • High landing lag
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Sweetspot: 15.0%
    • Sourspot: 10.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sweetspot (aerial): 70%
    • Sweetspot (grounded): 105%
    • Sourspot: 200%

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The usual meteor smash DAir. Not much special here besides the fact that it is untechable if hitting grounded opponents with the sweetspot. It's unsafe in pretty much all cases, but kills early as is the case with most meteor smashes. Nothing much to say.

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:GCB:Neutral-B:

  • Flare Blade: Charges up the Binding Blade and does a downward vertical slash accompanied with an explosion. Will burn himself while charging, and will burn himself on the release of the attack. Can be reversed during the charge. Can also be cancelled by hitting the shield button and will dash forwards or backwards quickly depending on the direction given
    • Charging to maximum charge will automatically release the attack
      • Cannot cancel or turn around to reverse the attack once it starts
    • Charge up time is about 3 seconds maximum
    • Burn duration after attack is 3 seconds
    • Explosion will become bigger the more it is charged
    • Dashes will not trigger Unbound Fury trait
  • High startup
  • Average endlag
  • Unsafe on shield for minimum charge
    • Becomes much more safe on shield the longer it is charged
  • Low shield damage
    • Shield damage does not increase when charging
  • Average priority
  • Knockback is upwards at 45 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Minimum charge: 9.0%
    • Maximum charge: 27.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Minimum charge: 110%
    • Maximum charge: 45%
  • Approximate self damage:
    • During charge: 1.2% per 0.5 seconds
    • After attack: 1.0% per 0.5 seconds
    • Maximum: 13.2%

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SO I was honestly hesitant on giving Roy such an offshoot of Shield Breaker, but it's also so iconic a move to both him and the Sword of Seals/Binding Blade with its fiery explosion. However, in playing with Roy's strengths as well as differentiating him further from Marth, I think I found a good solution here; namely, more overall control at the cost of shield damage and kill power, as well as more recoil.

The first idea is the reversible nature of it that we can see in Ultimate making it great for catching crossups and ledge rolls. However, I gave it a second function in the form of a dash that is controllable in both directions, making it also a baiting tool as well as an edgeguarding one, fitting with Roy's design of being more of a counter initiator rather than a rushdown fighter. Unlike a rushdown fighter, simply using this move will cause some miniscule damage to Roy, and the dashes are like initial dashes but not even dash attack can be used, giving him at least a little opening for the enemy to capitalize on if they read his movements from maybe continuously dash canceling with Flare Blade forward.

These forms of control come at a cost of kill power, shield damage and recoil. Now when charging, the sword will hurt Roy, and even after a missed attack, the recoil will become damage over time. The overall recoil of a fully charged attack is higher than the 10% it usually deals, making attacking with it more of a commitment in this regard. And while the kill power is much lower, it is still something to be feared, especially the longer it is charged.

And again, while it isn't going to be breaking shields like Marth, it becomes super safe on shield if charged up as well, leaving an enemy wanting to maybe pester Roy from a distance if he ends up charging, which he can followup on with a cancelling dash into his new counter move you will see below (unless you were here before I made this entry). This once again signifies its baiting nature.

Overall, I think this gives the move some new light since it doesn't really ruin its usual purpose of ledge guard while still giving it fair downsides to compensate for the massive amount of control and baiting ability it now possesses.

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:GCL::GCB::GCR:Side-B:

  • New move: Piercing Rapier: Will stab his secondary Rapier forward in a fierce manner three times in quick succession while leaning forward. Will cause damage even through shields and completely ignores super armor and hyper armor, no matter the intensity of either. Can be angled slightly
    • Will also ignore invincibility from moves, but not intangibility from dodges
  • Transcendent priority
  • Above average startup
  • Above average endlag
  • Average shield damage
    • Will still deal full damage when hitting shields
  • Barely unsafe on shield
  • Knockback is sideways at 25 degrees
  • Low base knockback to allow for tech chasing
  • Approximate damage numbers
    • First hit: 3.5%
    • Second hit: 4.5%
    • Third hit: 6.5%
    • Total: 14.5%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Third hit: 180%

--------------------------------

I'm not sure how much Roy players value Double-Edge Dance, but I always found it to just be such a knockoff of Marth's Dancing Blade but just fundamentally worse because of how Roy's sword works. I think combined with Flare Blade's new control, this could be a good "poke" tool regardless. HAHA! :p

Bad jokes aside, this is probably the final piece on top of what I've been establishing for Roy being good at going against bad offensive maneuvers and pretty good against bad defensive ones too. This move is an on demand pierce that even ignores most knockback resistance of all kinds from other moves. It will not affect dodges obviously, but the threat of this move alone can cause enemies to leave their shields to at least get out of the shield pressure and Roy can react with his many faster moves. On top of that, with the Flare Blade's dash cancel, it can be a good, if telegraphed, approach option, as well as punish any opponent trying to maybe armor his way into an approach towards Roy, taking advantage of his abysmal priority and overall frame data. That's why this move is the only transcendent move in his arsenal.

I think this move is a really creative use of his Rapier, at least compared to the rest I put in, and really rounds out his moveset nicely. Hopefully nobody is too mad at the removal of Double Edge Dance. ._.

--------------------------------

:GCU::GCB:Up-B:

  • Blazer: Ignites the Binding Blade and does a flying uppercut which elevates Roy diagonally upwards. Does 5 consecutive hits. Has heavy armor at the beginning of the move. Sends Roy into freefall after ascent. Can be angled slightly forward at a deviation of about 25 degrees
    • Heavy armor absorbs up to 70 units of knockback or 9% damage
    • Would have the same damage in both the ground and in the air, as well as the same knockback
  • Average priority
  • Average startup
  • Fast endlag
  • Average landing lag
  • Knockback of final hit is upwards at 70 degrees
  • High shield damage
  • Very unsafe on shield
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Multihit: 1.4% * 4
    • Final hit: 8.5%
    • Total: 14.1%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Final hit: 110%

--------------------------------

So I like this newer Up-B they gave him in Smash 4. It is one of his more reliable combo enders and kill moves. However, I would change a couple of things. Firstly, consistency in damage and knockback whether on the ground or in the air, giving Roy some actual aerial presence, especially since his two killing aerials are now super slow and have bad area and priority. Speaking of, this is Roy's highest priority move, making it at least threatening to other low priority fighters like Marth, Ryu, and Sheik (again, I will get to them eventually).

Secondly, less angle control, which gives this more of a weakness when paired with Roy's combo moves having higher deviation on DI. However, it would still be enough to predict the usual DI away, but not enough to catch a DI in, making it a good tool to create fear in the opponent to keep DI'ing in and allowing Roy to continue his combos.

Lastly, heavy armor instead of super armor and a slightly slower startup makes this move less useful in neutral and out of shield. Since Roy is about dodging more than powering through, this is necessary to make sure this move isn't too powerful. However, because of the heavy armor, it can still punish jabbers that are too close regardless.

--------------------------------

:GCD::GCB:Down-B:

  • New move: Unbound Riposte: Roy will quickly counter any incoming attack with a fiery, mid range beam from his sword. Any enemy that hits this beam will be briefly stunned in place and burned with unavoidable damage over time. Failing to counter will leave Roy open for a while. Starting this move at all will damage Roy with the same damage over time debuff.
    • Note that this counter will not stop Roy's downward momentum during countering position
      • It will still halt if he counters successfully
    • Beam goes about a third the distance of Final Destination
    • Beam will destroy any projectiles in its way and is immune to projectile destruction
      • (This means the universal dash attack projectile destruction will not work)
    • Properties of this move are not changed based on the move countered
    • Beam starts in the center of Roy, essentially acting as a melee counter as well
    • Beam stun is about 0.8 seconds and reduces knockback by 50%
  • Low startup until intangibility
  • Very high endlag if not countering
    • Low endlag if countering
  • Damage over time duration is 5 seconds for both opponent and Roy
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Damage over time: 1.4% per 0.5 seconds
    • Total: 14.0%
  • Approximate self damage:
    • Damage over time: 1.0% per 0.5 seconds
    • Total: 10.0%

--------------------------------

We got a new counter! And it isn't just copy paste either. This counter first and foremost comes with the projectile his Binding Blade is able to do in his game! This makes it so Roy's approach is actually still decent enough despite his motif being close range. And it finally gives him some sort of projectile. But more than that, this counter will actually not scale with the power of the hit countered, making it MUCH better against weaker hits, but weaker against stronger hits.

Because of this, it really fits with his motif of controlled aggression even more since even the tiniest mistake on the opponent's part will cause massive damage, especially since it now stuns instead of knocks back, allowing for many followups into Roy's high damage combos. However, during the stun, the enemy will take reduced knockback, so don't think they'll just die from this retaliation. As a caveat to its amazing turnaround potential, it will also damage Roy on use, so don't spam it too much and only use it if you definitely have the opening you need.

A little extra is that this counter actually won't halt Roy's air speed when used in midair, making it good as a landing tool and short hop approach if you really feel you'll need it against their projectiles. Unfortunately, this makes it pretty bad off stage due to Roy's fast falling speed.

--------------------------------

:GCZ:Grab and Pummel:

  • Mid-low range melee grab
  • Average standardized frame data
    • (There would be three standardized frame data "rankings" for melee grabs)
      • (Fast: 6 frame standing grab, 8 frame dash grab, 9 frame pivot grab)
      • (Average: 9 frame standing grab, 11 frame dash grab, 12 frame pivot grab)
      • (Slow: 12 frame standing grab, 14 frame dash grab, 15 frame pivot grab)
  • Approximate pummel speed: 0.25 seconds
  • Approximate pummel damage: 0.9%

--------------------------------

Like I mentioned in Jigglypuff and Dedede's threads, there would be a much better standard of grab frame data. Roy's would be the average, since his countering game isn't really centralized with grabs, but they can come in handy regardless. However, his pummel is much faster, if weaker, and it's mostly to unstale his dodges for more countering attempts.

--------------------------------

:GCZ::GCR:FThrow:

  • New move: Sets the opponent in front of him and reverse grip stabs the opponent with an ignited Binding Blade
  • Above average endlag
  • Average base knockback allowing for stage control
  • Knockback is sideways at 35 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • First hit: 0.8%
    • Second hit: 6.0%
    • Total: 6.8%
  • Approximate kill time: 195%

--------------------------------

Honestly, it really bothers me that Roy's down throw and forward throw are literally the same animation. I think this is a bit better, since it finally gives Roy some edgeguarding setup throw. It also does the most damage of all his throws. Hopefully this makes up for his combo potential on his forward throw by giving him more tools to use for aerial play.

--------------------------------

:GCZ::GCL:BThrow:

  • Nonchalantly tosses the opponent behind very quickly
  • Very low hitstun
  • Very low endlag
  • Below average base knockback
  • Knockback is sideways at 35 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers: 5.0%
  • Approximate kill time: 400%

--------------------------------

This simple throw is mostly to bait the opponent into doing something exploitable due to how quickly it puts both characters back in action. It also works with the Unbound Fury trait by increasing the hitstun of the enemy more than Roy, allowing for some short combos. Otherwise, it's nothing special.

--------------------------------

:GCZ::GCU:UThrow:

  • Throws the enemy upwards while reeling from the force
  • Average endlag
  • Average base knockback
  • Knockback is exactly upwards at 90 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers: 7.0%
  • Approximate kill time: 165%

--------------------------------

Roy's emergency kill throw. It kills pretty late, but it's mostly here to make sure he doesn't overly rely on his smashes, Blazer, or BAir to kill things like he seems to have a trend of doing. And it's not like his grab is super dangerous otherwise.

--------------------------------

:GCZ::GCD:DThrow:

  • Body slams with one arm, throwing the opponent down in front of him and popping them into the air right above him
  • Below average hitstun
  • Below average endlag
  • Knockback is upwards at 55 degrees
  • Very low base knockback allowing for combos
  • Approximate damage numbers: 2.8%
  • Approximate kill time: 600%

--------------------------------

Roy's low damage combo throw. With the Unbound Fury trait, it should still true combo into a Blazer, but without it, it won't. It can still work with his faster startup moves though, like tilts.

--------------------------------

FINALLY FINISHED! I got a working image of his new special moves in my head finally. I think overall this is one of my more subtle changes to a character, but still, most of my ideas are off the wall, so yeah. Next up, another heavyweight!
 
Last edited:
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#3
This is really interesting **** here.

I'm curious about one thing tho; do some of these changes apply to Chrom too, or are you gonna just do something different with him?

Anyways, I am thinking of doing something similar to this for future moveset revisions I do, but I'm worried the format will be too similar to yours.
 
Joined
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#4
This is really interesting **** here.

I'm curious about one thing tho; do some of these changes apply to Chrom too, or are you gonna just do something different with him?

Anyways, I am thinking of doing something similar to this for future moveset revisions I do, but I'm worried the format will be too similar to yours.
Note that I will be decloning Chrom whenever I get around to it, both in concept here, and in the future mod for Ultimate I make. :)

Glad you like this. This one was the hardest one to do for me so far, because I never play Roy but I liked his concept, so I needed to research Roy players as well as his flaws in Melee as well as how Project M did him, etc.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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#5
Recently, I've been doing some work on Roy's moveset from Smash Wii U. One of the things that I've done was adjust the sword's hitboxes so that there are three strength levels.

royhitbox.png


Notice how Roy's sword has three hitboxes on the image above? The base deals the most damage, offers the highest hitlag multiplier, and the strongest shield damage bonus. The blade's center deals 0.875x the base's damage, hitlag multiplier is 0.75x the base's, and the shield damage bonus is half as strong. As for the tip, it deals 0.75x the base's damage, hitlag multiplier is 0.5x the base's, and there's no shield damage bonus.

Also, the blade center and tip have weaker BKB than the base, but they'll still deal enough knockback so that failing to hit with the base isn't too detrimental for Roy; this also means that their KO potential is better, despite still KOing later than the base. This applies to the aerials as well, but not for Double-Edge Dance; all the hitboxes for Double-Edge Dance share the same BKB and KBG values, while the damage dealt is still dependent on how far away the target is from the sword base. Additionally, the d-air can only meteor smash with the sword base, while the center and tip simply sends fighters flying upwards at an 80 degree angle.
 
Last edited:

Luigifan18

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#6
Hang on, how does Roy's new counter work? Does he generate the beam regardless of whether or not he counters something, or does he have to deflect something to send the beam out? And if it's the former, does the success of the counter hinge on something hitting Roy himself or hitting the beam?
 
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#7
Hang on, how does Roy's new counter work? Does he generate the beam regardless of whether or not he counters something, or does he have to deflect something to send the beam out? And if it's the former, does the success of the counter hinge on something hitting Roy himself or hitting the beam?
It would work where he only generates the beam if something hit him first. If nothing hits him, it's basically like a missed counter now.
 
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