Official (Read OP) DeDeDe Tour! Community MU Analysis

[KingJames]

Link I've never had much issue with. I know people will say Dedede gets zoned out here, but I disagree because powershielding negates most of Link's spam. It makes arrows and wind not much of an issue, you really should never be getting hit by them, they're both predictable and come out pretty slow compared to other zoning characters.

His bombs can be annoying though. But unlike toon link, normal link doesn't have the speed to utilitze them for setups near as well.

He doesn't seem to have the speed to punish a lot of Dedede's laggy moves like top tiers can. Link's zoning I've always felt was just too slow to be threatening or to keep Dedede out, just powershield correctly and you should be able to get in. And once you're in I think Link has issues with Dedede. Both disjoint outranging his.

But yeah, powershielding is a must here. If you haven't mastered it, or if you're playing online with lag, you're gonna have a bad time.

50:50 in my opinion.

I agree with everything you said, also once link off stage he should be dead you either bair after a airdoge or bair his up b.

 

[dean.]

Hello JimmyTheCaterpillar is this project still continuing?

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Hello JimmyTheCaterpillar is this project still continuing?

Yes, it is. I apologize for the cease of activity. Discord really made this site irrelevant to me in all sad reality. I will start back up shortly.

 

[Blue Banana]

Hi, the Olimar board is now discussing the King Dedede matchup. Any input is appreciated.

 

[Illusion.]

Greninja boards are discussing the DDD MU, any input is appreciated.

Link is here: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...alchions-dedede-bayo-2-29-3-14.369356/page-35

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Yes, it is. I apologize for the cease of activity. Discord really made this site irrelevant to me in all sad reality. I will start back up shortly.

This thread has still been dead for a while now. If we want to continue it, maybe we should let someone else run it? Or maybe just move it to discord?

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

I apologize for the incredibly long lack of discussion.

We'll now be discussing Marth! We will also be going over her brother, Lucina!

Definitely a MU that has changed throughout the recent patches. Discuss!

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Also, with how different the patches have made things, I have opted to "start over" with the characters being discussed, in order to recapture really common MUs whose discussions have been made irrelevant. So please check the OP!!

 

[Deleted member]

Can we include Lucina in this discussion as well, considering other character boards tend to go over the both of them? I'll be sure to give my two cents considering I'm rather experienced in the matchup myself. My boy Bowserboy3 , a damn good Marth main can contribute to this.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Thanks @Feelicks!

Now then, I remember last time. I was a player who was heavily against this matchup at all costs. Before 1.1.4, Marth had literally nothing to do against Dedede. It was such a frustrating matchup. Sourspots don't have any KO potential, forcing a tipper, which was hard as Dedede outranged Marth, noticeably in a lot of moves, and he could not gimp him due to his great recovery. I used to say this matchup was heavily in his favour.

After 1.1.4 though, while I think Dedede still has the advantage, it is a lot less annoying than before. 3 of Marth's 4 ground normals are now faster; Jab 1 is better at setting up now, and a lot safer to throw out. Ftilt is now a bit easier to space on Dedede due to it's increased range, and is safer due to it being a rather quick tilt. Utilt is just a better move in general, as Marth now has an actual way to set up for a reliable aerial combo on Dedede, something Dedede must be aware of.

These things help mitigate some problems with the matchup before. Another thing Marth likes is this matchup his improved Fair. While it can still be iffy to space, landing the tipper is super easy now, and the tipper now KO's at a realistic percent on Dedede, something much needed.

With all this considered, I still think Dedede has a slight advantage. He is still very tough for Marth to get in and approach, and still is tough to KO, but Marth has some tools to help combat him. I would say around a 60:40 (Dedede:Marth). Could be a 55:45, but my heart says 60:40.

 

[SalsaSavant]

I don't have enough matchup experience with this to rate it, but I though I'd give my two cents.

Against a Marth who knows the matchup (which is rare), we have two main things to look out for...Counters, high percent tippers, and Marth getting too far in.

With our frame data, the counter issue is obvious. We need to play it safe and defensive, so the usual. Luckily, Marth has no way to force us to take the offensive, so that lets us play to our strengths and sidestep a lot of the counter issues. Just don't get too predictable. One thing I've pulled off a few times was to train the Marth to expect ffall Nairs, then fake it, force a counter, and then go for a grab.

Once Marth has breached our perimeter, then the frustration begins. We're combo food, and Marth has some pretty solid combos now. At this point, the focus should be on escaping, because Marth has the definite advantage here. Correct me if I'm wrong, Marthcina mains, but Lucina has slightly more deadly (or at least more consistent) combos, right? So we need to keep that in mind too.

Now, the tipper. Obviously, this doesn't apply to Lucina. We're the King of Not Dying, but one well timed tipper from the prince at a high percent can make up feel like peasants. Marth's sheer kill power is his most powerful asset in this matchup. And really, I don't think we have much of a solution to it besides "play safe" and "don't get hit." I guess we could try to force offstage fights as much as possible to avoid some of the issue, but even then, once good spike and we're roast pheasant at the prince's dinner table.

Oh yeah, and he can break out of a lot of our chains with his recovery, can't he? I don't know if it's safe enough for them to try, so Marthchina mains, enlighten me!

I think this is one of our better (read: not horrible) matchups, and our standard play works well, maybe with a little more caution thrown in here and there.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Man, there was a long period of time where I felt like Marth was one of our easiest matchups, and Lucina was even easier. Now it's completely opposite, with Marth being a difficult MU, and Lucina being even harder.

Okay, I guess it isn't completely opposite, they still are not that bad, but I fear and respect them now, as contrast to when I considered them easy before.

As for advantages in this MU, we certainly do have a few. We outrange Marth with our giant hammer, which is a huge deal in this MU since Marth is so reliant on spacing and getting that tipper. Since we outrange the tipper by just enough, we can space even better than marth. Even if Marth gets up close in our weak zone, he doesn't get too much reward. Another great advantage is our survivability. Well, it is actually a double-edged sword here since if we do get tippered, we can lose one of our best tools in this MU, and be at a significant disadvantage, but as long as we don't allow Marth to space that tipper, we can live to very high percents since Marth's sour spots don't kill for a long time, and we can ignore his edgeguards with our armored recovery by just recovering low. Also Marth has no way to force our approach so we can actually play defensively here, which just helps our spacing game even more.

Now for disadvantages. As stated before, Marth can kill us early, as in like 50-70% (guesstimating F-smash kill percent at ledge), which is less than half of our expected survival percentage, which means we lose rage, time, and damage, and are going to be fighting a very uphill battle if we are going to still win. Also, Marth can rack damage on us very well, with first hit of N-air or jab cancel into dancing blade or a smash, and his good punish game, Marth can deal damage to us pretty well. Also, Marth can juggle us with U-airs, U-tilts, or other aerials pretty well, and we don't want to be above Marth. We can somewhat do the same to him, but not nearly as well. Also, Marth doesn't have too much trouble reflecting gordos. It isn't brainless, but a simple jab, F-tilt, F-air, U-air, or U-tilt will do very well. Marth's recovery makes him difficult to edgeguard, but not impossible. I would still prefer to try and punish his get up though rather than his recovery off stage.

I actually fear Lucina a good amount more than Marth. When playing against Marth, the gameplan is to just not let him get tipper and to survive to high percents while outspacing him. However, Lucina can take advantage of our weak zone right outside our grab range and rack very good damage on us, and kill us with F-smash earlier than DDD should be dying. She can't kill us at 50-70, but she can consistently kill us around 120-150, and she can get us there without too much trouble.

Ratings (edited):
50 - 50
55 - 45

 

[Bowserboy3]

Man, there was a long period of time where I felt like Marth was one of our easiest matchups, and Lucina was even easier. Now it's completely opposite, with Marth being a difficult MU, and Lucina being even harder.

Okay, I guess it isn't completely opposite, they still are not that bad, but I fear and respect them now, as contrast to when I considered them easy before.

As for advantages in this MU, we certainly do have a few. We outrange Marth with our giant hammer, which is a huge deal in this MU since Marth is so reliant on spacing and getting that tipper. Since we outrange the tipper by just enough, we can space even better than marth. Even if Marth gets up close in our weak zone, he doesn't get too much reward. Another great advantage is our survivability. Well, it is actually a double-edged sword here since if we do get tippered, we can lose one of our best tools in this MU, and be at a significant disadvantage, but as long as we don't allow Marth to space that tipper, we can live to very high percents since Marth's sour spots don't kill for a long time, and we can ignore his edgeguards with our armored recovery by just recovering low. Also Marth has no way to force our approach so we can actually play defensively here, which just helps our spacing game even more.

Now for disadvantages. As stated before, Marth can kill us early, as in like 50-70% (guesstimating F-smash kill percent at ledge), which is less than half of our expected survival percentage, which means we lose rage, time, and damage, and are going to be fighting a very uphill battle if we are going to still win. Also, Marth can rack damage on us very well, with first hit of N-air or jab cancel into dancing blade or a smash, and his good punish game, Marth can deal damage to us pretty well. Also, Marth can juggle us with U-airs, U-tilts, or other aerials pretty well, and we don't want to be above Marth. We can somewhat do the same to him, but not nearly as well. Also, Marth doesn't have too much trouble reflecting gordos. It isn't brainless, but a simple jab, F-tilt, F-air, U-air, or U-tilt will do very well. Marth's recovery makes him difficult to edgeguard, but not impossible. I would still prefer to try and punish his get up though rather than his recovery off stage.

I actually fear Lucina a good amount more than Marth. When playing against Marth, the gameplan is to just not let him get tipper and to survive to high percents while outspacing him. However, Lucina can take advantage of our weak zone right outside our grab range and rack very good damage on us, and kill us with F-smash earlier than DDD should be dying. She can't kill us at 50-70, but she can consistently kill us around 120-150, and she can get us there without too much trouble.

Ratings:
55 - 45
60 - 40

Coming from a Marth player, I feel you are overestimating Marth's potential in this matchup. The fact that Dedede not only slightly outranges Marth, essentially forces him to land a tipper, and negates one of his best points (edgeguarding) makes this matchup very tedious and annoying for Marth.

Lucina has always had a slightly easier time in the matchup, due to the fact of this being one of the only matchups where not landing a tipper is noticeably harmful.

Everything you said about both characters is spot on. However, i'd swap the scores you stated. I'd at the least put 40 - 60, and 45 - 55 . This is still a matchup that Dedede can perform well in, as it only exaggerates all of his strengths.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Coming from a Marth player, I feel you are overestimating Marth's potential in this matchup. The fact that Dedede not only slightly outranges Marth, essentially forces him to land a tipper, and negates one of his best points (edgeguarding) makes this matchup very tedious and annoying for Marth.

Lucina has always had a slightly easier time in the matchup, due to the fact of this being one of the only matchups where not landing a tipper is noticeably harmful.

Everything you said about both characters is spot on. However, i'd swap the scores you stated. I'd at the least put 40 - 60, and 45 - 55 . This is still a matchup that Dedede can perform well in, as it only exaggerates all of his strengths.

Looking back at those numbers, a 60-40 does seem a bit too much for Lucina's favor, but I still would put her at 5% higher than Marth, so I will change the MU ratings to:
50 - 50
45 - 55
(will edit in my first post)
I still think though that Lucina has the advantage here. Given, this is from my personal experiences with Marth/Lucina mains, and only one Lucina main exists at my locals, and no (good) Marth mains. However, this person secondaries Cloud, which is a horrible MU for Dedede, and he still does better against me with Lucina than Cloud. I know that he is somewhat more skilled with Lucina, but he is still good with Cloud, and I just feel like Lucina has tools that make the MU hard for Dedede. Until I get more experience against Marcina mains, I firmly believe in these ratings, at least for myself.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

When are we going to start discussing mewtwo? It's been over 2 weeks since we started Marth

 

[Axel311]

When are we going to start discussing mewtwo? It's been over 2 weeks since we started Marth

To be honest I think the Dedede forums should do what the Rosa forums have done and just create a separate thread for each matchup so people can discuss the ones they want when they can.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

When are we going to start discussing mewtwo? It's been over 2 weeks since we started Marth

Has it really?? I was convinced it had still been about a week. Finishing up school has really made me lose track of time.

Anyway, it bothers me to end this discussion early since this is a MU that I personally struggle with to no end but anyway...

Marth is done at 50:50
Lucina is done at 55:45, Lucina's favor.

On to Mewtwo!

To be honest I think the Dedede forums should do what the Rosa forums have done and just create a separate thread for each matchup so people can discuss the ones they want when they can.

I've been toying with this idea for a while and it sounds pretty good to me. I will implement it when I finally get a chance to when school is over finally.

 

[SalsaSavant]

So...patch comig up. Wanna put this on pause? Also, I second the multi thread thing.

 

[Soul Train]

So...patch comig up. Wanna put this on pause? Also, I second the multi thread thing.

Agreed with pausing this til the patch - then a hardcore rejuvenation here. I'm thinking a big nice-looking master matchup chart in the OP, something like what Feelicks posted a bit ago. Only more accurate lol

I'm inclined to dislike the multi-thread idea, as first it would add to board clutter with 58 new threads, and second as so much great material is already in this thread. Of course I'm all ears to any other ideas.

Sidenote: there is just no way the Marth matchup is 50:50. I knoww I'm late to the party and I don't have time now for a full analysis, but a decent Marth will win every time. We can't zone him out, Gordo does almost nothing and don't even try to tell me Ftilt (with its horrible frame data and messed up hitboxes) beats him. Marth's frame traps, mobility, and ability to shine right inside our weakest zone (inside Ftilt range) just wrecks us. Of course with the upcoming patch this may change (read: more Marth buffs incoming), so we'll see. I will say it takes a good Marth to capitalize on these issues - but I believe that's the assumption in all of these analyses, that both characters are being played to their full potential.

 

[SalsaSavant]

We could do something like 2 threads a week, and a master directory. That'd help prevent clutter and let every matchup get the attention they deserve.

 

[Flawed]

Did we actually get a date for the patch besides "May" ?

 

[Axel311]

Did we actually get a date for the patch besides "May" ?

I don't think so. But there is scheduled maintenance for tonight, and considering Nintendo didn't give us any prior notice before the last patch, it's probably coming tonight.

 

[SalsaSavant]

I don't think so. But there is scheduled maintenance for tonight, and considering Nintendo didn't give us any prior notice before the last patch, it's probably coming tonight.

Would they really just say "May" when it's the next day?

 

[Soul Train]

Did we actually get a date for the patch besides "May" ?

No. Don't listen to anyone saying otherwise; it'll show up on this page like it has every other time: https://www.nintendo.com/consumer/network/en_na/network_status.jsp

Tonight's work is just on Miiverse. Completely unrelated to smash.

We took bets in the Discord though. I've got a feeling it'll be early next week.

 

[Big O]

What's up D3 mains and enthusiasts? The DK boards are currently discussing D3 in our MU thread and would appreciate any opinions, strategies, and in-depth discussion you guys could contribute on the MU.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

I (for once) agree with Soul Train on this. The Marth matchup is incredibly frustrating. It's like fighting Usain Bolt holding a sword. He's able to abuse King Dedede's below average air game easily. I never found the matchup to have anything in King Dedede's favor besides our superior edgeguarding game. Heck, I'd go as far to say Marth has a better neutral. Gordo is free damage for Marth. It's terrible and the idea of the matchup being even makes me wonder why some people are still playing Brawl in 2016

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Hey JimmyTheCaterpillar could we revive this thread and maybe start discussing the Wario matchup? Please

 

[TMJ_Jack]

lol I wonder what could have happened to everyone????

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

lol I wonder what could have happened to everyone????

Oh yeah this thread exists.
So, we're on Mewtwo, aight?

 

[TarriestMetal27]

Hey remember when the last guy said we were on Mewtwo like 8 months ago. Yeah well I really wanna talk about this MU. I want to know what D3 has to do against Mewtwo and what Mewtwo has to do against D3.

 

[Fibberkick]

Hey remember that guy who said he wanted to talk about the mewtwo MU? Like a year ago