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Official (Read OP) DeDeDe Tour! Community MU Analysis

KeithTheGeek

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I think maybe we should wait until after the 15th, seeing as how we're probably gonna get a patch that day...

But anywho, Kirby. I'm gonna reserve this post for later because it's early and I need to be heading off to work soon, but I agree with basic premise that it's even. He can combo us pretty hard, but he has issues when it comes to securing the kill, while Dedede just needs to smack him around a couple of times to win.
 
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Ah, crap. I completely forgot character patching. I was too hyped up for new content in general lol.

Yes it would be best if we waited for sure.
 

williamsga555

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I also think it's somewhat close to even, but it's a very very interesting matchup from an attribute perspective. It's like taking two completely opposite character types, but deciding to give both of them horrendous mobility and a hard time getting an opening hit on the other guy (Kirby is too damn small for Dedede to hit, Dedede's hammer is too damn big for Kirby to get by).

Think it's super fitting to see these two characters having such a weird opposite matchup. Really love it.
 

PonderBot

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Kirby main here to chime in. One of the hardest D3 fights I had was against sometime who would use Gordos and hammer's reach to sort of wall me out then if I got in they would use inhale to return me to the original situation. Do any of you think this play style affects the overall matchup at all?
 
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Kirby main here to chime in. One of the hardest D3 fights I had was against sometime who would use Gordos and hammer's reach to sort of wall me out then if I got in they would use inhale to return me to the original situation. Do any of you think this play style affects the overall matchup at all?
As others have stated before, Dedede's best bet of winning here is to keep Kirby out of close-range; and he has the ability to do it. Ftilt, jab, aerials, Inhale, and Gordos all do a good job at keeping Kirby at bay (although Kirby's Inhale beats out Dedede's Inhale no matter what. This is annoying, but understandable considering Kirby's natural mastery of the technique, and Dedede's mimicry.). So yes, if you play a Dedede who plays his spacing game very well, you will have a hard time.

However, do Kirby's new buffs shake up this MU at all do you think?
 
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alexthepony

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
189
Dedede's weird. Fundamentally there isn't really anything that Pit has to worry about, but if Pit does slip up, he can get hammered into next week. I know quite a few people (myself included way back when) swear blind that Dedede is a nightmare. It's by no means unwinnable, but it does require patience and a proper understanding of the matchup.

I think Dedede's biggest advantage is the fact that his disjoints beat out Pit's. Pit can space well with his aerial disjoints, but that's kinda difficult when Dedede's aerials have better range, hit harder and have relatively minor endlag. In addition, the fact that Dedede gets great reward off of a grab means Pit will seldom approach unless there's a very big opening to exploit. We can't afford to rush into this match. We have to be careful and force Dedede to play the angel's game.

Pit's combos are useful up to a point. Dash attack comes out quickly and can punish Dedede if his guard's dropped, which can combo into u-smash at low percents or f-air and u-air at higher. He's got the usual grab -> d-throw tricks (combos into u-smash and potentially all of his aerials), but Pit wants to stay out of Dedede's immediate space and hence a grab is seldom a realistic option except as a very coy punish. Dedede's big hurtbox should in theory make him combo food, but his floaty stature and ability to punish Pit with n-air or f-air means Pit won't get much of an opportunity to rack up too much damage in one fell swoop: it needs to be concise and consecutive. We need to go for small increments of damage whenever possible instead of going ham; since Dedede can survive well into the mid-hundreds and just gets stronger with rage, we need to do as much damage as possible before we even think of going for the kill.

Pit's arrows can be useful if used correctly; don't write them off just because their damage output is weak. If Pit's out of range (which, if he's clever, he will be) and Dedede is daft enough to try pressure him with Gordo, fullhop arrow can reflect it back with a bit of charge with relatively small risk involved. This is something Dark Pit can't do, so it's worth bearing that in mind. I'd still be wary of using Gordo in neutral, since it can be very easily intercepted and used as a punish in itself.

Quick tip: Pit's n-air can't reflect Gordo except on the last hit, because only the final hitbox does sufficient damage to reflect it. This doesn't really work on a Pit that even halfway understands what they're doing, because they'll just use something else to knock it back, but it does make for a good party trick if you're up against a fledgling angel~

Killing Dedede is...oy vey. Pit doesn't really have trouble killing, I just want to nip that misconception in the bud: he has trouble killing consistently. F-throw, f-smash, u-smash, tipper f-tilt and tipper b-air can kill pretty neatly in theory, but with Dedede's weight and the aforementioned difficulty of getting any of these hits to land, execution doesn't match up to theory. We want to make sure Dedede is reasonably certain to die before we can go for the kill confirm, so that means we need to rack up as much damage as possible whilst minimising it ourselves. I usually wait for Dedede to drop his guard and then go for fresh f-throw at the edge or, if I can condition Dedede to go aggro, bait an unsafe move out and then punish it with a sweetspot b-air. If we can survive to the extent that we've got more damage on you than you have on us, we can bait the penguin out and wait to exploit the chink in Dedede's armour. It isn't ideal, but it's serviceable.

The issue here is that Pit can die at any time if Dedede connects a hit, so even a tiny mistake can be fatal if Dedede gets momentum going. With momentum on his side, Dedede can become an impregnable stonewall and toss Pit about like a tiny winged ping-pong ball - especially since Pit has difficult landing, so the threat of u-air juggles can force us to go for the ledge instead of trying to come back down on-stage. Guardian Orbitars don't present nearly as much of a threat as they seem to in theory, since the frame data is disgusting: by the time it's deactivated, Dedede can just do what he wants to us. I don't recommend it, personally, it isn't something you need to worry about.

Dedede's very difficult to edgeguard. His multiple jumps and invincible recovery means he's probably going to get back to the stage if he can get momentum going, plus his aerials can challenge anything Pit serves at him. If Pit's fast to react and Dedede's at high percents, he can pressure Dedede off-stage with f-air strings, but d-air / b-air spikes are very difficult to connect safely. I think he's got an easier time edgeguarding us, since Gordos can be a bit of a hassle and walkoff n-air / f-air can force us to weave about, but Pit's recovery means he can just go deep and recover under the stage without much to worry about.

That said - and this is the main reason why I don't write this off as a clear win in Dedede's favour - there is a fundamental flaw in Dedede's gameplan: his disadvantage stage is very poor. Pit may get battered about if he makes a mistake and he can't get too intense for fear of his combos being beaten back, but if we can get momentum going and condition Dedede to use unsafe tactics, we can keep the pressure on just by virtue of our talent for playing on reaction and varied toolkit. We can bait the approach with retreating f-air and shorthop d-air, or even fullhop arrows from a distance, since Dedede's only projectile can be used to punish him and he will ultimately have to come to us if we just pester him from a distance. If we can find an opening and exploit it, we can get decent mileage out of n-air (a missed tech from it can setup for a dash attack or jablock) and d-air (combos into itself and can kill at high percents). While we can't get too brash with f-air strings and u-air juggles, we can definitely put the hurt on if we force Dedede to come for us. Pit may be weak and small, but he's wiry and we know how to play hit 'n' run if it means we can seal the stock eventually. We will play for the big picture, because that's the only way we can safely win.

It's a difficult matchup in theory, but it's very possible for Pit to win just because his playstyle means he benefits from good fundamentals. We just can't afford to make too many stupid mistakes or we will get punished hard for it. I'm gonna say it's even, maybe slightly in Dedede's favour because of his ability to end the stock with a good read, but I don't think it's a nightmare for either party.

EDIT: I don't really consider matchup ratios very often, but for the sake of community data, I'm gonna say it's 55:45 to Dedede.
what spacing should I go for in the nuetrol? like stay out of range of dede's attacks, and deal with him approaching with a gordo? also how do I condtion him to go all aggro?
tks for the post though, it really helps
 

alexthepony

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
189
Dedede's weird. Fundamentally there isn't really anything that Pit has to worry about, but if Pit does slip up, he can get hammered into next week. I know quite a few people (myself included way back when) swear blind that Dedede is a nightmare. It's by no means unwinnable, but it does require patience and a proper understanding of the matchup.

I think Dedede's biggest advantage is the fact that his disjoints beat out Pit's. Pit can space well with his aerial disjoints, but that's kinda difficult when Dedede's aerials have better range, hit harder and have relatively minor endlag. In addition, the fact that Dedede gets great reward off of a grab means Pit will seldom approach unless there's a very big opening to exploit. We can't afford to rush into this match. We have to be careful and force Dedede to play the angel's game.

Pit's combos are useful up to a point. Dash attack comes out quickly and can punish Dedede if his guard's dropped, which can combo into u-smash at low percents or f-air and u-air at higher. He's got the usual grab -> d-throw tricks (combos into u-smash and potentially all of his aerials), but Pit wants to stay out of Dedede's immediate space and hence a grab is seldom a realistic option except as a very coy punish. Dedede's big hurtbox should in theory make him combo food, but his floaty stature and ability to punish Pit with n-air or f-air means Pit won't get much of an opportunity to rack up too much damage in one fell swoop: it needs to be concise and consecutive. We need to go for small increments of damage whenever possible instead of going ham; since Dedede can survive well into the mid-hundreds and just gets stronger with rage, we need to do as much damage as possible before we even think of going for the kill.

Pit's arrows can be useful if used correctly; don't write them off just because their damage output is weak. If Pit's out of range (which, if he's clever, he will be) and Dedede is daft enough to try pressure him with Gordo, fullhop arrow can reflect it back with a bit of charge with relatively small risk involved. This is something Dark Pit can't do, so it's worth bearing that in mind. I'd still be wary of using Gordo in neutral, since it can be very easily intercepted and used as a punish in itself.

Quick tip: Pit's n-air can't reflect Gordo except on the last hit, because only the final hitbox does sufficient damage to reflect it. This doesn't really work on a Pit that even halfway understands what they're doing, because they'll just use something else to knock it back, but it does make for a good party trick if you're up against a fledgling angel~

Killing Dedede is...oy vey. Pit doesn't really have trouble killing, I just want to nip that misconception in the bud: he has trouble killing consistently. F-throw, f-smash, u-smash, tipper f-tilt and tipper b-air can kill pretty neatly in theory, but with Dedede's weight and the aforementioned difficulty of getting any of these hits to land, execution doesn't match up to theory. We want to make sure Dedede is reasonably certain to die before we can go for the kill confirm, so that means we need to rack up as much damage as possible whilst minimising it ourselves. I usually wait for Dedede to drop his guard and then go for fresh f-throw at the edge or, if I can condition Dedede to go aggro, bait an unsafe move out and then punish it with a sweetspot b-air. If we can survive to the extent that we've got more damage on you than you have on us, we can bait the penguin out and wait to exploit the chink in Dedede's armour. It isn't ideal, but it's serviceable.

The issue here is that Pit can die at any time if Dedede connects a hit, so even a tiny mistake can be fatal if Dedede gets momentum going. With momentum on his side, Dedede can become an impregnable stonewall and toss Pit about like a tiny winged ping-pong ball - especially since Pit has difficult landing, so the threat of u-air juggles can force us to go for the ledge instead of trying to come back down on-stage. Guardian Orbitars don't present nearly as much of a threat as they seem to in theory, since the frame data is disgusting: by the time it's deactivated, Dedede can just do what he wants to us. I don't recommend it, personally, it isn't something you need to worry about.

Dedede's very difficult to edgeguard. His multiple jumps and invincible recovery means he's probably going to get back to the stage if he can get momentum going, plus his aerials can challenge anything Pit serves at him. If Pit's fast to react and Dedede's at high percents, he can pressure Dedede off-stage with f-air strings, but d-air / b-air spikes are very difficult to connect safely. I think he's got an easier time edgeguarding us, since Gordos can be a bit of a hassle and walkoff n-air / f-air can force us to weave about, but Pit's recovery means he can just go deep and recover under the stage without much to worry about.

That said - and this is the main reason why I don't write this off as a clear win in Dedede's favour - there is a fundamental flaw in Dedede's gameplan: his disadvantage stage is very poor. Pit may get battered about if he makes a mistake and he can't get too intense for fear of his combos being beaten back, but if we can get momentum going and condition Dedede to use unsafe tactics, we can keep the pressure on just by virtue of our talent for playing on reaction and varied toolkit. We can bait the approach with retreating f-air and shorthop d-air, or even fullhop arrows from a distance, since Dedede's only projectile can be used to punish him and he will ultimately have to come to us if we just pester him from a distance. If we can find an opening and exploit it, we can get decent mileage out of n-air (a missed tech from it can setup for a dash attack or jablock) and d-air (combos into itself and can kill at high percents). While we can't get too brash with f-air strings and u-air juggles, we can definitely put the hurt on if we force Dedede to come for us. Pit may be weak and small, but he's wiry and we know how to play hit 'n' run if it means we can seal the stock eventually. We will play for the big picture, because that's the only way we can safely win.

It's a difficult matchup in theory, but it's very possible for Pit to win just because his playstyle means he benefits from good fundamentals. We just can't afford to make too many stupid mistakes or we will get punished hard for it. I'm gonna say it's even, maybe slightly in Dedede's favour because of his ability to end the stock with a good read, but I don't think it's a nightmare for either party.

EDIT: I don't really consider matchup ratios very often, but for the sake of community data, I'm gonna say it's 55:45 to Dedede.
what spacing should I go for in the nuetrol? like stay out of range of dede's attacks, and deal with him approaching with a gordo? also how do I condtion him to go all aggro?
tks for the post though, it really helps
Dedede's weird. Fundamentally there isn't really anything that Pit has to worry about, but if Pit does slip up, he can get hammered into next week. I know quite a few people (myself included way back when) swear blind that Dedede is a nightmare. It's by no means unwinnable, but it does require patience and a proper understanding of the matchup.

I think Dedede's biggest advantage is the fact that his disjoints beat out Pit's. Pit can space well with his aerial disjoints, but that's kinda difficult when Dedede's aerials have better range, hit harder and have relatively minor endlag. In addition, the fact that Dedede gets great reward off of a grab means Pit will seldom approach unless there's a very big opening to exploit. We can't afford to rush into this match. We have to be careful and force Dedede to play the angel's game.

Pit's combos are useful up to a point. Dash attack comes out quickly and can punish Dedede if his guard's dropped, which can combo into u-smash at low percents or f-air and u-air at higher. He's got the usual grab -> d-throw tricks (combos into u-smash and potentially all of his aerials), but Pit wants to stay out of Dedede's immediate space and hence a grab is seldom a realistic option except as a very coy punish. Dedede's big hurtbox should in theory make him combo food, but his floaty stature and ability to punish Pit with n-air or f-air means Pit won't get much of an opportunity to rack up too much damage in one fell swoop: it needs to be concise and consecutive. We need to go for small increments of damage whenever possible instead of going ham; since Dedede can survive well into the mid-hundreds and just gets stronger with rage, we need to do as much damage as possible before we even think of going for the kill.

Pit's arrows can be useful if used correctly; don't write them off just because their damage output is weak. If Pit's out of range (which, if he's clever, he will be) and Dedede is daft enough to try pressure him with Gordo, fullhop arrow can reflect it back with a bit of charge with relatively small risk involved. This is something Dark Pit can't do, so it's worth bearing that in mind. I'd still be wary of using Gordo in neutral, since it can be very easily intercepted and used as a punish in itself.

Quick tip: Pit's n-air can't reflect Gordo except on the last hit, because only the final hitbox does sufficient damage to reflect it. This doesn't really work on a Pit that even halfway understands what they're doing, because they'll just use something else to knock it back, but it does make for a good party trick if you're up against a fledgling angel~

Killing Dedede is...oy vey. Pit doesn't really have trouble killing, I just want to nip that misconception in the bud: he has trouble killing consistently. F-throw, f-smash, u-smash, tipper f-tilt and tipper b-air can kill pretty neatly in theory, but with Dedede's weight and the aforementioned difficulty of getting any of these hits to land, execution doesn't match up to theory. We want to make sure Dedede is reasonably certain to die before we can go for the kill confirm, so that means we need to rack up as much damage as possible whilst minimising it ourselves. I usually wait for Dedede to drop his guard and then go for fresh f-throw at the edge or, if I can condition Dedede to go aggro, bait an unsafe move out and then punish it with a sweetspot b-air. If we can survive to the extent that we've got more damage on you than you have on us, we can bait the penguin out and wait to exploit the chink in Dedede's armour. It isn't ideal, but it's serviceable.

The issue here is that Pit can die at any time if Dedede connects a hit, so even a tiny mistake can be fatal if Dedede gets momentum going. With momentum on his side, Dedede can become an impregnable stonewall and toss Pit about like a tiny winged ping-pong ball - especially since Pit has difficult landing, so the threat of u-air juggles can force us to go for the ledge instead of trying to come back down on-stage. Guardian Orbitars don't present nearly as much of a threat as they seem to in theory, since the frame data is disgusting: by the time it's deactivated, Dedede can just do what he wants to us. I don't recommend it, personally, it isn't something you need to worry about.

Dedede's very difficult to edgeguard. His multiple jumps and invincible recovery means he's probably going to get back to the stage if he can get momentum going, plus his aerials can challenge anything Pit serves at him. If Pit's fast to react and Dedede's at high percents, he can pressure Dedede off-stage with f-air strings, but d-air / b-air spikes are very difficult to connect safely. I think he's got an easier time edgeguarding us, since Gordos can be a bit of a hassle and walkoff n-air / f-air can force us to weave about, but Pit's recovery means he can just go deep and recover under the stage without much to worry about.

That said - and this is the main reason why I don't write this off as a clear win in Dedede's favour - there is a fundamental flaw in Dedede's gameplan: his disadvantage stage is very poor. Pit may get battered about if he makes a mistake and he can't get too intense for fear of his combos being beaten back, but if we can get momentum going and condition Dedede to use unsafe tactics, we can keep the pressure on just by virtue of our talent for playing on reaction and varied toolkit. We can bait the approach with retreating f-air and shorthop d-air, or even fullhop arrows from a distance, since Dedede's only projectile can be used to punish him and he will ultimately have to come to us if we just pester him from a distance. If we can find an opening and exploit it, we can get decent mileage out of n-air (a missed tech from it can setup for a dash attack or jablock) and d-air (combos into itself and can kill at high percents). While we can't get too brash with f-air strings and u-air juggles, we can definitely put the hurt on if we force Dedede to come for us. Pit may be weak and small, but he's wiry and we know how to play hit 'n' run if it means we can seal the stock eventually. We will play for the big picture, because that's the only way we can safely win.

It's a difficult matchup in theory, but it's very possible for Pit to win just because his playstyle means he benefits from good fundamentals. We just can't afford to make too many stupid mistakes or we will get punished hard for it. I'm gonna say it's even, maybe slightly in Dedede's favour because of his ability to end the stock with a good read, but I don't think it's a nightmare for either party.

EDIT: I don't really consider matchup ratios very often, but for the sake of community data, I'm gonna say it's 55:45 to Dedede.
also what stage should I go against dede
 
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what spacing should I go for in the nuetrol? like stay out of range of dede's attacks, and deal with him approaching with a gordo? also how do I condtion him to go all aggro?
tks for the post though, it really helps

also what stage should I go against dede
We're discussing Mr. Game and Watch now. Please refrain from talking about other match-ups. If you want to talk about Pit, message Wintropy or go to the General Match-Up Discussion.
 

SeanS

Smash Journeyman
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Oct 7, 2014
Messages
213
This is certainly an interesting matchup, one that is underdeveloped. It should favor G&W in theory, but I would not count the penguin out at all - for example, when I 2 stocked Chibo's ROB two KTARs ago, he went Dedede on me in game 2 and did significantly better despite losing. And I've actually lost the MU once on a day where I was not playing too well.

G&W's advantages are quite numerous. Dedede has limited responses to jab-to-grab attempts and is pretty easy to combo, to the point where he can even be double naird or uaird into an Up B at a decently wide percent range. He can do significant damage to Dedede offstage before an Up B is used (G&W's Up B in particular is a pretty good coverage option, though threatening bair works decently as well). He can punish Dedede's tilts out of shield very well. He can up smash Dedede's nair if float stalling is properly read. He can even - and this is quite ridiculous, by the way - push back Dedede to a certain extent by spamming Chef out of the blue, forcing Gordo reflections and poorly timed shieldings.

But the penguin has some tricks up his robes as well. If he reads a bair (completely possible because of G&W's air speed when used suboptimally or defensively), he can gordo through it with no risk of reflection. His own bair is safe on shield and helmet as well, letting him reset to neutral or score an awkward hit. His inhale, particularly from float, is a ****ing great mixup tool that works wonders on G&W's shield running and up smashing. He has better survivability and kill power to offset his tendency to lose in the neutral. His Up B onto the stage is mostly safe if G&W's bair doesn't pierce its super armor for a stage spike, and G&W can't do anything about it after the armor activates without an extremely well timed usmash after a hard read. And also, his gordo traps on the ledge remain useful on G&W, with G&W being able to respond with attacks and Up B in a way that other characters, can't, but also having issues keeping any kind of invincibility from ledge getup.

Overall, it's slightly in G&W's favor because G&W can control the pace of the match and punish certain things off of reaction in a way Dedede can't. Dedede has some good defensive tools to offset G&W's aggression, but they are often temporary measures that reset him to a neutral position in combat for a short duration of time. He can win by scoring big hits and getting a gordo-on-the-ledge scenario, and although these will be harder to achieve as this matchup gets familiarized and overall play optimized, his chance of getting what he wants is significant enough that it's a somewhat close MU.
 

NotAsian

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Quick chime 3d can easily be toot tooted which is very reliable
That's all I have to say lol!
 

steuben

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I know it's extremely frustrating and potentially boring, but my entire neutral against Dedede is Chef. In my amateur experience, it almost totally removes gordos from my opponent's vocabulary, and due to D3's size, forces extreme creativity in approaching.

Also, there are few things in the game more satisfying than upsmashing the king's Up B.

Sean, I actually have trouble responding to his f-tilt if I'm out of range for a grab or jab. What are some options you recommend?
 

williamsga555

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Theorycraft and Game & Watch experience tell me this should be slightly in his favor, but I've not yet played against Game & Watch as the King yet, so I unfortunately don't have much to contribute on this one. I don't think it'd be super lopsided or anything, but Iunno for sure.
 

SeanS

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Messages
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Sean, I actually have trouble responding to his f-tilt if I'm out of range for a grab or jab. What are some options you recommend?
Dash attack oos immediately after the last hit is shielded. If your opponent is going to insta shield and you don't have faith in your consistency, go for a grab instead.
 
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pepi1197

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The lack of G&W's ability to successfully gimp Dedede once the UpB comes out is probably the biggest issue for G&W in the matchup. Conversely, this is one of the only matchups where I think Chef (neutral B) has a good utility for G&W in reflecting Gordos and preventing easy approaches for Dedede who already is forced to workaround mostly aggressive play from G&W.

Just to tack on, here's Regi (probably the best G&W main currently) taking on a Dedede for a reference point.

 

KeithTheGeek

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Is the state of the Dedede boards that bad that the G&Ws are more active in our own match-up thread? :p

Here's my thing with G&W...he's immensely annoying to deal with. He can juggle Dedede good, bacon is actually amazing at stuffing out approaches, low cool-down on smashes makes him hard to punish so you pretty much have to call the attack out and beat him to it. My question for the G&W mains is this: what does he do to actually approach Dedede? I'm honestly curious.

You're good at walling us out, but what's stopping Dedede from playing the same game? And if we trade hits, those are trades that Dedede is winning. We hit harder and kill sooner, particularly with your status as one of the lightest characters in the game. I may watch that video later when I don't have to prepare for work to get a better idea of how the match-up might play out, but for now I'm just going through theory and my own experiences.

IDK, if we try to take you on head on you have somewhat better frame data and are great at juggling us and stuff...I just think that's not how a good Dedede would approach the match-up at all. I think we can, for lack of a better word, play lame and be a general PITA. IMO it's probably roughly even, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
 

Youbacon42

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37
Here's my thing with G&W...he's immensely annoying to deal with. He can juggle Dedede good, bacon is actually amazing at stuffing out approaches, low cool-down on smashes makes him hard to punish so you pretty much have to call the attack out and beat him to it. My question for the G&W mains is this: what does he do to actually approach Dedede? I'm honestly curious.
Even though it sounds really stupid, Chef is the answer to your question. Our aerials and tilts are most likely going to get punished by Dedede's aerials/tilts, preferably bair and f-tilt. G&W has a quite a bit of lag on his aerials and tilts, and if (power)shielded, Dedede can land a hard punish on G&W. No question about it.

But this is where Chef comes into this MU.

Like you said, Chef is good at stuffing out Dedede's approaches. But what about spamming the B button on a sitting Dedede? It has a really big effect due to his size and his dash attack not being the fastest. Chef can cover so many options on it's own if Dedede decides to just stand by and tries to lure G&W into attacking, like:

Standing there: Get hit.
Shield: Get stunned, G&W can run in for a grab or throw out more bacon.
Spot dodge: Still on the same spot, get hit a few moments later or back to shield.
Roll: If correctly spaced, can cover a roll in with the pan, leading to a pan to bacon combo.
Jump: Dedede can actually jump out of it, but then he is in the air, leading to a very bad situation considering G&W has his invincible upsmash, upB and aerials like nair.
Dedede's roll attack on the ground: See Roll.
Dash attack: Too slow if a few pieces are already out.
Camping on the ledge: Sooner or later, one bacon piece will hit Dedede on the ledge.

You may challenge the chef pieces with an aerial (I'm sure Bair would actualy smack away a few of them), but then you would get hit after the aerial. And depending on spacing and how many pieces of bacon already are out...

Not to say you just have to take the hits of chef (I never managed to outcamp a Dedede with Chef alone, although I tried it many times (and got him to 200+% multiple times by majorly using chef only)), but this one move screws Dedede over a lot. Whether it be to block Gordos, or whether it be to approach.
 

SeanS

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It's understandable that you don't instantly get G&W's approach game, since it does not revolve around spamming anything repeatedly and also makes use of defensive options to quickly close distances.

You should start off by getting two things: that G&W has a really good, lingering dash attack that lets him chase landings or get in; and that G&W foxtrots like a monster, allowing him to change the timing on dash attacks, shield run quickly and safely get in, jump cancel into an aerial or tomahawk, etc.

Another thing we can do (though admittedly, not many of us do this right now) is deliberately sourspot moves into a jab, which in turn can lead into a rapid jab or a very quick jab-to-grab.

Hell, we can even walk right up into jab or tilts, with varying (but often surprising) levels of safety depending on the spacing.

Without getting into an intense amount of detail as I'd like, we essentially mix up on you, based off a psychological understanding of how you play.
 
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williamsga555

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In a way it makes sense that chef would be so effective on King Dedede in particular. Kinda funny, actually.
 

NouveauRétro

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Oh this MU? 100-0 unwinnable for Dedede
lolololololololol
lolololololololololololololololololololololololol

But seriously G&W wins it by quite a bit imo
I've fought Dedede offline and online and either Dedede gets a hard read and successfully kills G&W at 40% or Dedede NEVER gets in and get to such high percents that he just dies. Latter is more common. Chef is arduous to get past and G&W puts early damage on Dedede in increments of 40+% if they know the combos.

Examples of Combos that work really well on Dedede
(Down Throw)Nair-nair/uair-Fire
(Down Throw)uair-uair-Fire
bair(landing)-nair/uair-Fire
Dthrow-utilt-regrab(He's that big)-dthrow-utilt-uair/nair-Fire
usmash-uair-uair-Fire
...There's more but this is getting ridiculous.

Gordos are pretty close to useless. Swooping down with an aerial is a good way to get upsmashed(if only you had a multihit aerial lol). The hell are you supposed to do other then get in at the beginning of the match and get a quick 0-death with some hardass reads?
:4gaw:60-40:4dedede: if you ask me. 65-35 if we're talking about patient, optimal players.
 
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In a few quick MU sum-ups of my own, it's really really easy to kill GW... In theory. The main thing about this MU is that edgeguarding/gimping him is difficult. That and gordos aren't very useful here. However, they can both play the walling game fairly well here and while it's in GW's favor, I don't think it's as bad as the GW's say it is.


Anywho..
The Watch is done at 60:40.

Moving on to.... Zelda! :4link:

Ohwait... Link!

Discuss!
 
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DJTHED

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I've been summoned from the Link boards. The timing couldn't be better, as a pretty prominent D3 main has arrived to the local scene recently. While I don't have enough D3 knowledge to tell you how you guys would be able to counter us, but I can at least provide you guys with what goes through my mind whenever I fight this guy.

Here are a few key things I take into account when approaching this matchup:
  • D3 has an incredibly hard time approaching us as long as we stay back and spam and counter any attempt at approaching with f-tilt (commonly used as a pivot f-tilt out of a dash and is generally safe to throw out, and kills), jab, our buffed forward air (kills), our clawshot tether grab, and up B OOS (kills).
  • From what I can tell, your Gordos are, for the most part, useless against us unless we're offstage. We generally stay back in this matchup and prevent approaching, and leaves you with Gordos as the only thing you can do at a distance. All of our projectiles beat and reflect your Gordo back easily, and due to the distance we usually keep between us, even if we don't have time to throw out a projectile to reflect it, many of our normals can still easily reflect it from a safe distance like n-air, f-tilt, jab, and probably most importantly z-air.
  • D3 will almost never reliably get killed at the top. As a result, this limits our killing options significantly. Up smash, down smash, up throw, down throw -> up air (also not a guaranteed hit on D3 anyway), and up air are all effectively useless at landing the kill.
  • D3 is much more vulnerable when launched horizontally towards the side blast zones. Many of our tools that we use to prevent approaching also happen to kill horizontally, which I can only imagine is absolutely terrible for you guys. F-tilt, f-smash, up B OOS, and probably most importantly forward air. F-air is generally really safe for us to throw out with the low landing lag and good range, and since the most recent patch we've also gotten increased shield stun, increased knockback, and increased percents on both hits. Whatever you do, don't get hit by this in neutral at kill %.
  • We don't want to get grabbed and get thrown above you or get thrown off stage. We have very limited options against you offstage, and when we're above you. If we are above you, our options come down to just chucking bombs downwards, fast fall mix ups, and air dodge. Your up air easily beats our down air, and iirc your up air can blow up bombs being thrown downward without the bomb explosion hitting you, and may also allow you to land a kill against us. Offstage is a nightmare for us. We have very limited options when trying to reflect Gordos while also being offstage, as most of our moves in the air has too much ending lag to be reliable reflectors and not end up too low. Your n-air is annoying offstage too. If we see that coming though, or any attempt at edge guarding us for that matter, and early aerial up B usually beats out most of those options. Don't forget about our tether recovery too, and account for it.

Alright. This is just what I think as a Link main whenever I fight D3. Other Links may differ in opinion, so keep that in mind. Hope you guys found this helpful and informative.
 

Axel311

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Link I've never had much issue with. I know people will say Dedede gets zoned out here, but I disagree because powershielding negates most of Link's spam. It makes arrows and wind not much of an issue, you really should never be getting hit by them, they're both predictable and come out pretty slow compared to other zoning characters.

His bombs can be annoying though. But unlike toon link, normal link doesn't have the speed to utilitze them for setups near as well.

He doesn't seem to have the speed to punish a lot of Dedede's laggy moves like top tiers can. Link's zoning I've always felt was just too slow to be threatening or to keep Dedede out, just powershield correctly and you should be able to get in. And once you're in I think Link has issues with Dedede. Both disjoint outranging his.

But yeah, powershielding is a must here. If you haven't mastered it, or if you're playing online with lag, you're gonna have a bad time.

50:50 in my opinion.
 
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williamsga555

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Biggest thing I hate about this matchup is our complete inability to aircamp, since up smash just destroys all of our landing options. It's quite annoying.

Otherwise I don't think it's too bad a matchup. Bombs are real annoying, his aerials are solid, up smash ruins my life. We outspace him, can freely challenge his recovery (though bombs make this tricky), and, while up smash is a great tool against us, it doesn't kill us for ages because Dedede.

I think we lose it but not by much. Would guess 45:55, but might be 40:60.
 

shrooby

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I'd stick with DDD for this MU if I encounter it. I don't think it's that bad.

Link can zone well but if you're adept at power shielding it's not that bad. Annoying, but not that bad.
Walk forward and shield. Link is slow enough that it's harder for him to punish that with his tether.
Main goal should be to grab him, get him into the air and eventually offstage. Getting to him is the hardest part.
Basically everything DJTHED said.

Maybe I'm spacing it wrong, but Link seems to be able to shield grab bair, which sucks.
Yeah, it's not safe.
That's one reason I tend to stick to being grounded more than usual. It's easier to get to Link from the air, but having one less landing option (among other things) makes it more difficult to actually land once you're near him.
Most of the time I'm just walking/running and shielding. And like I said, Link is slow enough that it's harder for him to punish that. His projectiles also require a bit more commitment than most.

Based on my experience it's even. With optimal edgeguarding (which I am not good at against Link) maybe slightly DDD's favor depending on how optimized it can be. I could see the argument either way.

So just other noteworthy stuff:

-Generally just best to respect Link's dsmash and ftilt
-As you might guess always ban FD. Platforms make getting out of disadvantage a lot easier in my experience. DDD's size and speed make getting out of disadvantage on FD very difficult.
-To optimize edgeguarding I think it best to learn how Link's tether works (IE how Link moves once he's tethered onto the ledge) so that it can be intercepted more reliably.
 
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KeithTheGeek

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This match-up really isn't that bad at all, just tedious to play at times. I would argue it's in Link's favor the higher up you get in player skill as Link can simply just do things that Dedede can't, but at worst it's probably 45:55. The main thing are his bomb tricks and set-ups, and how he can control grounded space very well with his sword. With Dedede's size and weight, he can confirm into a lot of things, but patient play will usually beat his tricks.

It's difficult to deal with online though, as the lag inherently makes roll and projectile spam incredibly powerful for Link. I initially thought it was a bad match-up because of For Glory, but that's an easy trap to fall into.
 
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I'm never really scared against Link, as it's really quite easy to just shield through the projectiles. Getting caught in Link's more powerful moves is certainly scary, but I think we overall we just get a little more out of our kit. More range, more power, more survivability. The only thing we really lose to in this MU is speed and the ability to use gordos more than we'd like. Which certainly does hurt, mind you. My opinion is 45-55, in Link's favor. The better player will almost surely win, though.

Link is done at :4link: 55:45 :4dedede:

Next up, we have Toon Link. :younglinkmelee: Definitely the harder MU of the two Links in the game, and a hard MU for Dedede in general. I'm sure no one will disagree with me there.

Begin!
 
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Moobussir

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For using Young Link's pic instead of Toon Link, that alone means you lose the matchup.

Jk I love Young Link, and Dedede too.

Anyway, Toon Link here, I've fought Dedede kinda often before, sometimes it feels downright unfair how hard this matchup is for you guys. Dedede's large size makes it really easy to be caught by bombs and boomerangs, and Gordo gets reflected by both, including a returning boomerang. Since we're also small, it's not often hard for us to deal with or avoid. It's best to be extra careful when using it, but it is still helpful when used right, like to get in our space when we lag off producing a projectile. Just be ready to shield it when you see it's coming back.

You are very susceptible to our combo's, even throw combo's, due to sheer size off D-throw, and heavy weight off Up-throw, which will connect for a while. Don't underestimate the explosion size of bomb either, since the explosion does more damage and can generally be more dangerous, especially if you attack it (accidentally) via trying to catch it with Jab, F-tilt or attacking from below with Up-air. We're light, so combo's won't work on us after a while, and enough mix-up makes it easier to dodge as well. But you can still make reads to catch us off, like I've been caught jumping after D-throw, only to be followed and hit by an Up-air.

Which brings me to your greatest strengths: You have great reach with your long hammer, which are good for poking us out. Use those moves to space effectively against us. Your other great strength is your heavy weight. which means you'll live for a long time like usual (170%+). But Toon Link has powerful horizontal finishers like F-air, which we'll use to KO instead of our more powerful Up-air.

How do you wanna get us? When you're at high percents, your rage is incredibly dangerous, and you'll want to take us out then for sure. The percents would probably be TL at 110 and you at 170, and at that point, you'll be able to kill us really well. Which means attack safely but steadily to build % and be patient to get that fatal KO.

Overall, very hard matchup for you. Toon Link will usually win, but your rage is your biggest advantage here, and will definitely be the decider. I can't put a number to it but definitely in Toon Link's favour.
 

Axel311

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My 2 cents -

Toon link seems to play similar to Diddy. But what he does with banana, toon link does with bombs. Toon link is obviously a much harder matchup than regular link because he actually has speed.

He'll run away, get his item (bomb), throw it at you to set you up for a follow up. Either by forcing you to shield or by you actually getting hit with the bomb. If he misses the setup he'll run away and reset neutral and pull another bomb. Rinse/repeat.

We can't really do a lot to combat this since Dedede is so much slower. What really gives toon link issues is characters that can go in and deny him space to get his bomb setups. We do have the big disjoint which is good but toon link doesn't have to approach or commit to anything unsafe, and can run circles around us. We kind of have to rely on reads and toon link mispacing stuff. We really can't do much to prevent him from playing his bomb game. He can get his bombs and reset neutral whenever he wants. And dedede's bad speed makes it hard to deny toon link space for his bombs.

I don't see how this is any better than :4tlink:65:35:4dedede: honestly, a skilled toon link should have no problems if he's patient and doesn't commit to unsafe options.
 
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ILJ

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Hi, South Florida's best tink here.

I personally find this MU hard. Dedede can give tink a run for his bombs (hehe). Don't overlook the basics:
1) power shield everything
2) patience....
3) more patience

Toon link will obviously be zoning you so try to read where he'll be going next. Be in his face. Don't give him space to spam you. Watch out for his up tilt - it can rack up easy damage and lead to up airs (does good damage and kills). Gordos won't help you much. It's easy to reflect it with an arrow. Your best bet is to gimp him off stage. This is where you'll beat him. His bombs do lead to combos,killing ones too. He has a tether grab so blocking is a good option. If any ddd's need good MU exp message me. Gl.
 

TekKnite

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Toon Link Vs Dedede I say the matchup is:4tlink: 60:40 :4dedede:in Toon Link’s favor. He’s faster, has a decent aerial mobility and his projectile game sadly counters a lot of what Dedede can do especially when literally stops your Gordo set up.

Neutral

Toon Link wins neutral straight up. He doesn’t have to approach you and can bomb camp to just tac on the dmg also with bommerang and arrows. The only ways you can combat him in neutral is to jab1 the arrow and boomerang away and try to catch bombs or powershield all of them. Bomb is a little different because it bounces off of regular shield so in neutral when he is space away from you I’d advise you to regular shield and either Z catch or use an aerial like Nair to catch the bomb since that is one of your quickest moves. When you have toon Links bomb in neutral you can use it to combat the other projectiles or just throw it away. Other than that you are just going to have to decide when to go in because I don’t think there is ever a “here’s my chance” moment with this matchup


Gordo
Personally I think that Dedede’s gordo should clank instead of being knocked back. Think about it If I pull out a bomb and throw a boomerang at your slow gordo at closer range it knocks Dedede’s gordo back at him doing a little more damage to Dedede since it was “reflected” in a way and I can throw a bomb and get a free follow up. If it actually clanked with all of Toon Link’s projectiles (and all projectiles in general, aside from Fox laser since it goes through that anyway) it would be much better because then you can shield the next projectile I throw. A Toon Link would do this in general because he has 3 projectiles to Dedede’s one.

Being Punished

It’s no surprise that Dedede gets punished for damn near everything he does, but Toon Link can punish him super hard in neutral if you go in at the wrong like whiffing a fair or bair or nair for instance. Toon Link like myself will generally just up tilt if it’s early on your stop and do it up to like 40 then do a smash since you are heavy. The only other characters that I can think of that gets the up tilt treatment the worst other than Dedede are Captain Falcon & Fox(Fox more since he falls the fastest) Toon Link can Punish all your gordo’s as well as your inhale. Your jumps off stage can be hit out by all his projectiles and if you are too far away your Up-B won’t make it to ledge or stage. The only advice I can give on up tilts is DI away from him, but behind his back and in an upward direction so you can jump out. If you DI towards the front of him 1 your will take more dmg since you are going into his sword and 2 he will just grab you and continue to combo you. As far as being gimped off stage just recover low as most Dedede’s do. Since you have 5 jumps just DI away always and try and jump out. Only other advice I can give is just get better with your spacing so you don’t whiff moves like your bair and other important aerials.

Punishing Toon Link

Punishing Toon Link as Dedede , you do not have a lot of options on stage aside from nair and maybe hitting with a gordo. I think Dedede exceeds offstage with Toon Link because you have more jumps and you can make yourself a hitbox. All a Toon Link player can do is use aerials and projectiles like throwing a bomb which he should be using to help him recover anyway since Toon Link’s isn’t the best. Yes Toon Link has a Zair to recover, but hey Dedede is a huge guy so he may be able to stop it with a gordo in the stage to hit Toon Link as he Zair’s or fastfall with nair.

Closing statement

I hope I helped you guys out with all this. If you have specific scenarios I’d be more than happy to give you some insight. I think this covers all the genral outcomes and opportunities for all you Dedede players out there. I know you guys have it rough, but hey keep it up because I respect all you guys for never giving up on him. :)
 

Flawed

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Toon Link another matchup that I'm very experienced in thanks to my wife, who plays him. https://youtu.be/0ClWpB4sC1g

Thats an old game of us playing , however I have plenty more replays that I never bothered uploading.


Now, my wife has broken down this matchup down as a pro TL into variables , and its actually pretty amazing - of course, she did study so many penguin so meh.

Upon seeing TL on the stage you immediately lose 80% of a move, Gordo toss is pointless. It has its uses, but they are rare. You will lose stage control if you throw one out - even if you are out of the way of the inevitable return, you will have lost stage control and likely put yourself closer in the corner.

TL wins the neutral. We don't have any tools to make him fear us right off the bat, unlike his projectiles which put us on the defense immediately.
TL can throw boomerangs, and bombs to his hearts content, and we have to be mindful of not giving in and rolling toward him while we are boxed in. The roll in puts us in a rough situation where we must be extremely mindful to not take too much damage.

Rolling into TL while boxed in equates to:
Uptilt (x4-5) - Option select - (can also press uptilts slightly later for more aware D3's who will try to jump)
  • Footstool- possible, but less likely- only leads into a dair or arrow reset fsmash.
  • Upsmash- This ends the string, and we can jump airdodge etc
  • Up air- Recommended if the TL has rage, also does more damage than upsmash
  • Nair- Bad DI on the nair + proper motion of the TL allows him to get another nair
Now that we are in the air, we must decide our option immediately. An aware TL, will pull a bomb, and throw a boomerang at this point. The boomerang is unwanted damage, so of course we want to avoid it. This also will speed up our decision. The bomb is a trap, in case you decide to inhale or falling nair. Inhale-which TL can toss a bomb while being sucked into the void- will let you eat a F-smash or a fair.

Our best option is to go to the ledge or the edge of the stage.

Camping D3 is a solid strategy, but us strong D3's will continue to persist until we finally get in. This is where TL shines as a character, as he is able to instantly switch to agression. TL should throw boomerangs and arrows, and use air dodges to jump around and harrass the pengiuin.

Once a TL is in the air, we are likely to be in shield, especially if he has a bomb in his hand, or a boomerange is floating about, and a simple airdodge torward us may bait us into dropping shield to grab or attempting to roll or jump away, which then gets us hit by a nair.

At this time, D3's should be fustrated by these tactics, but now they should be playing more cautiou because their damage is a little higher, thus being in shield more, and allowing TL to harrass close range with pivot grabs, crossup nairs, bomb recatches on shield (another bait- attempts to get you to try to grab)

TL has zair to throw into the mix too- as everything that hits your shield serves to frustrate.

at 108%, a fresh boomerange/bomb fair will kill you on the side of stage. I don't exactly know why it feels as though our heaviness doesnt matter when flying horizontally

at 139% a back throw can kill you if your DI isn't proper, you can die off the top, or the sides if you are in T&C or smashville.


D3

We may be down, but we aren't doomed.

When we get a grab, we must swing. When we get him in the air, we must swing. When he is recovering we must uptilt gordo to cover the tether. Its a difficult tech to get, and its likely he'll be facing the wrong way during his up b, so we can still edge guard because it wont snap.
If he airdodges, we must swing again.

Keep Swingin

This is one of those matches where you have to make it happen, when you get your chance

60:40.

Edit: I realize i made this sound awful for D3, and heres why I'll put it 60:40 and not 65-35. We still kill TL at 80ish with Dsmash.
I struggle with this, but we still have a shot.​
 
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shrooby

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hmm...

I actually don't think Tink is that bad an MU.
I haven't played THAT much with Zan, but I didn't feel completely overwhelmed when I did play him in bracket some time ago. Since Tink hasn't been touched in patches since then, which was summer~ish last year, this set still serves as a decent judge.

Here is me versus @Zan- the besss tink

http://www.twitch.tv/fadgames/v/9363294

This set is very silly and Larry and VoiD offer their goober-ish commentary, but yee~
You gotta know his tricks and not get overwhelmed. I camp the air a lot because, well, you can't throw an item at a 45 degree angle.
Mix up air stalling and just walking and shielding. The latter of which I should've used more in the set.
It's from awhile ago but I believe I banned BF and FD
Key thing DDD has is air camping and survivability.
You get wrecked at early percents pretty hard but DDD lives so long that's it's relatively not that bad. If you're able to avoid Tink's kill setups (which I will admit if you're fighting Tink for the first time they just seem so overwhelming), it leaves a lot more time and room to get that killing read DDD needs.

Zan is a much better player than me, and I was able to keep up fairly well besides game 2. So I think it's only 55:45 Tink's favor. 6:4 at worst.

EDIT:

Tink is done at 60:40, Tink's favor.

Next up, :4marth:!
I posted moments after you it seems, so I didn't see this!
Sorry! D:
 
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Smooth Criminal

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Mitigating item play is also key here. Get comfortable powershielding bombs and the occasional 'rang when it's necessary.

RIP TL discussion.

Marth? I'm too tired to write up a gigantic explanation, but the long and short of it? I think this is one of the few MUs in the game that we actually win in. We outrange him, we outcamp him, we punish more efficiently (versus having to swing for the stars ala tipper)...D3 has free reign to more or less do what he wants. Just don't **** up with footsies and let him whiff punish you with a jab/tilt > tipper. Also, I guess watch out on stages with platforms and being in the air with him below you. Potentially big conversions for Marth there, but nothing D3 can't diffuse with respect/awareness/big ****ing hammer to the face/etc.

I will say that it is closer than it was before. Marth did get some nice buffs. Not sure if I wanna say it's any more than 6:4 in our favor, though.


Smooth Criminal
 
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D

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I'll call over Bowserboy3 Bowserboy3 here for input since he's a Marth main I fight on a constant basis and he's very knowledgeable about the character.

I believe that we beat Marth as well. We get better conversions off a grab than him, and our disjoints are much meatier and rewarding. Pivot ftilt is a godsend vs. Marth on the ground. If you space effectively with moves like back air, forward tilt and FF nairs Marth can do little to challenge us. His recovery is strictly vertical, and we're more than capable of bringing him offstage away from the ledge with out multiple edgeguarding options. Marth isn't even gonna have an opportunity to kill us unless he lands a tipper, which is tricky in the first place unless he does jab/tilt -> tipper like Smooth Criminal just said above me. Due to this we're able to take full advantage of Rage, and Marth has a hell of a hard time catching up once we have the stock lead. 6:4 or 55:45 in our favor for sure.
 
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Bowserboy3

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Bowserboy3
Aha, thanks for linking me here @Feelicks. I do play Marth tons, and also know a lot about him.

So coming from a Marth perspective, I think Dedede wins this matchup. The main reason for this is the fact that Marth MUST land a tipper to kill Dedede, and while there are a couple of setups for landing a tipper (such as falling Uair, or grounded Dair spike at a specific percent, Fair tipper at a specific percent), they are strict and outside of that, King Dedede virtually cripples all of Marth's strong points. Marth can't kill him with a sourspot until unreasonable percents because of Dedede's heavy weight. One of Marth's main selling points is his fantastic off stage game, that can finish the majority of the cast off at relatively low percents when played correctly. Not Dedede. Of course he is heavy, but Super Dedede Jump is what is the nail in the off stage coffin for Marth. Aside from the huge jump, having launch resistance during the jump makes off stage play pointless. If Dedede didn't have this, this matchup would be a lot nicer. His hammer also still outranges Marth (this is compared to Brawl), despite most of Marth's moves having ever so slightly increased range. Dedede also gets better follow ups from his grabs than Marth. Even Marth's last resort kill option, Up Throw doesn't kill Dedede until about 180% with Rage.

In Marth strong points, if Marth happens to get Dedede above him, it can be tricky for Dedede to get down safely if the Marth knows what he's doing. Marth is great at frame/landing traps, because Uair and Utilt are safe on Dedede's Nair, and baitind Dair for example can bring Dedede back to square one. Marth's Counter is also a much nicer tool for this matchup, because most of Dedede's attacks all deal high damage, something Counter loves (as Counter only reflects a move's damage, not knockback, so higher damage = higher knockback), meaning that Marth can KO Dedede with Counter should the opportunity arise. Dedede must also be careful about returning to the stage rather than the ledge with Super Dedede Jump. Counter can KO Dedede near the ledge at about 80% IIRC, and for Dedede that is relatively early.

Basically, in this matchup, Marth must tread very carefully. Overall, I think that despite Marth's nerfs, this matchup isn't as bad as it was in Brawl (mainly due to the overwhelming nerfs Dedede also received), but still a rather similar rating. Marth should be playing a defensive, wall out spacing game, staying just out of Dedede's range, baiting bad approaches and failed attempts, and punishing them, as Marth has an option for most of Dedede's bad choices. Overall, I'd say 60:40, to Dedede, but 55:45 wouldn't be far wrong either.

On another note, I'd also like to say this this is a matchup where Lucina has a better time than Marth. With all the above taken into account, Lucina can safely kill Dedede easier with her equal blade at a fair percentage. It's still much the same as Dedede v Marth, aside from the fact that Dedede outranges Lucina slightly more than he would Marth. But Lucina can still kill Dedede at around 120% IIRC with an Fsmash, earlier with Rage. This would be a more 50:50, and is one of the matchups where I do consider using Lucina over Marth (the other being Falcon).
 
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