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Re: Bayonetta - Character hate in competitive play? An analysis

OverLade

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What is it that makes a character hated in competitive play? Is it simply being overpowered, having unlikeable mechanics, unlikeable aesthetic?

I've seen a ton of discussion and mainly "hate" directed towards Bayonetta and wanted to bring some perspective about hate of overpowered characters in fighting games in general.
I hope you find it interesting, and discuss below!
 

Luigi player

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I guess most people hate on characters that are easy to play while having good rewards for that. Or if they have strategies / mechanics that are disliked by many (for example camping / just running away / LUMA).

As for myself I only "hate" (more like dislike) characters if they're either too good (doesn't matter to me if they're easy or hard to play), or if they have too great rewards (-> most x-to-death combos) that are, for their super high reward, too easy to get (like previous MK / partially ZSS / Bayonetta).
It just feels unfair when you get hit "once" and die. It also doesn't go both ways with this unless it's like a ditto or something. The game is about having multiple scenarios where players fight against each other, not just "get something right once and you win", that just makes it more luck and less skill based, or it's just way too good. If all characters had something like that it would at least be somewhat balanced, but I wouldn't like a game like that either.
 

Diddy Kong

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I hate Cloud for the very same reason people hated pre-patch Luigi; too easy to pick up and be effective with. On top of that, Cloud is way better than Luigi ever was or will be.
 

Managomous

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In terms of the hate relating to Bayonetta, I believe Luigi Player is correct:
When a character has a lot of concepts that are little risk and ridiculously large reward, it tends to make the game pretty stale to be honest. What I mean by stale is, it ultimately overrules some of the concepts that were created in order to avoid certain situations such as 0 to death. And in order to address the issue, the opponent is told that they have to "Adapt" which in a lot of situations that may be the case, but if "adapting" leads to a playstyle which is not very exciting to play, then the mentality of the game becomes, are you just playing to win, or are you playing to win and have fun at the same time?

This situation really becomes two-fold. The user who is playing as the "broken" character, realized that a concept is overpowered, and decides that it is the best option. Which you can't blame that user for doing because they are playing to win. However, this results (At least from a spectator position), realizing that this opponent is just throwing out that certain move, at a higher rate than any other move. And repetitiveness, especially in a video game (As a spectator), is not fun to watch. Example? In Melee, if you were watching an Ice Climber vs any person match, you would realize that the opponent using the Ice Climbers will throw out a significant amount of more throws, attempting to get the ill-fated "Wobbles". While watching that, it becomes quite boring to be honest, because it's repetitive, predictable, and there is a little skill regarding it, but not enough to invoke adrenaline.

It's like, watching the same movie over and over again. Eventually it loses it's appeal, because you know what's going to happen, it's no longer fun fresh or exciting, and there is hardly any risk, so without risk can there really be any adrenaline? (As the spectator once again).

Now again, you can't blame the competitor for using such tactics, because they are just doing what the game developers introduced to the game. But vice versa, the competitor who is using these said tactics, cannot blame the crowd or spectators for hating on them, for the reasons stated above. It provides no entertainment, it's dull, and it's just plain not exciting. Look at all the hate a person like Hungrybox receives. He is choosing the best option given to him. He is a competitor, and he has a specific goal in mind.

Now as for the competitor, who is not using the said "broken" character, they are usually seen as the "hero" if you will, because they are going against a concept that is viewed as overpowered and essentially overpowers the mechanics of the game. If it can overrule most DI, and lead to an instant death in a lot of cases, then it's probably not going to be very good for the community and is probably considered "Poison". Everyone likes the underdog story, it's what creates "Hype".

Now the problem with Bayonetta in particular? Not only does she have one concept which is very overpowered (The dive kicks to drill kick up and off the stage), but she also has another move which is considered overpowered, little risk and amazing reward, and that is witch time.

Characters like Cloud and Rosalina are hated because they can invoke a safe-playstyle and ultimately have a lot of good utilities (Speed, power, etc), but guess what? All those things do not require you doing the same movement, over, and over, and over. You have more creativity in the sense that, as those characters, you have to utilize those tools to get a hit in, rather than (Once I get this hit in, I am guaranteed a kill). Yes you can say "At a certain percentage, cross-slash is guaranteed a kill", but I can guarantee you at lower percentages, it will NOT guarantee a kill (Unless something really wonky happens).

So overall, I think this is why there is so much hate regarding Bayonetta. In short words, too much reward for way too little risk. And that is cancer to both spectators, and players alike if you ask me. It takes the "fun" out of the game, if you will. Is seeing someone lose to a 0-death string fun? Is losing to that, fun? Losing isn't fun for anyone I imagine, but something so guaranteed, it's like being spit on while losing.

But that's my take on it. Yes there are things you can do to try to win, and you can "Adapt", but people need to stop trying to delude themselves into thinking that certain things in this game are not broken. And just realize, this is why certain characters are being hated on and just accept it lol.
 

NotAnAdmin

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I have never truly hated a character (except Yoshi, fucc Yoshi). I dislike more so the match-up. When a match-up causes me to completely change my playstyle and makes me feel like I have little to no options in the neutral I get a little annoyed... It feels unfair that I already have such a limited character and now I'm being cut short again. Then I realize (again) that it was my choice to main Falco and I think up some ways around my problem. There is a way around nearly everything that's presented to you, you've just got to find the counter or make a strategy. In other words, "adapt, or get left in the dust".

Bayo has some fundemental issues that truly make the match-up a living hell. She's got so many things that stacked in her favor it's ridiculous. Especially how easy it is to approach and to make simple combos that rack up percentage it's easy to see why it's a dreaded MU.
 

Big-Cat

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I don't hate any of the characters. What Smash 4 players hate is when they can't just spam aerials and run around. Bayonetta forces you to make each button count and learn the game.
 

Managomous

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I don't hate any of the characters. What Smash 4 players hate is when they can't just spam aerials and run around. Bayonetta forces you to make each button count and learn the game.
No, you completely missed the point. Almost makes me think you didn't read what anyone said. It's clear that's not what Smash 4 players hate.

I could sit around and spam projectiles. It's safe against Bayonetta. So I don't think what you said actually holds water.
 
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TheGoodGuava

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I only hate Bayonetta because I hate the way you have to play against her. The match HAS to be played super slow or super campy or else you're going to lose
 

wizrad

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You think people hate on Bayonetta? Boy, lemme tell you somethin'. Only three characters can cause a person to be personally insulted and threatened. Never mind that they're 70% banned. None of them are Bayonetta. All of them start with "Mii". You figure out the rest.
 

TheGoodGuava

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You think people hate on Bayonetta? Boy, lemme tell you somethin'. Only three characters can cause a person to be personally insulted and threatened. Never mind that they're 70% banned. None of them are Bayonetta. All of them start with "Mii". You figure out the rest.
Mii's with customs sure, every other time they only deserve 1111, not an all out ban. If they get their optimal moveset then every other character should, That's all there is too it. Personally I like watching mii's, I don't really play as them but they're fun to watch. They aren't boring like Bayonetta where you have to play campy and stupid as hell or slow as ****. Seeing her play takes away any sense of hype that you get from watching any match and playing against her is just a matter of "who can I projectile spam until killthrow percent?"
 

wizrad

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Mii's with customs sure, every other time they only deserve 1111, not an all out ban. If they get their optimal moveset then every other character should, That's all there is too it.
If you look further into the matter, you will see that there is much more to it, but this is not the place for discussing that. I was referring more to all of the people who have called me an attention seeker or not a part of the community for playing a Mii and multiple "top players" whose tier lists have tiers dedicated to degrading Miis and their players. Also, other "top players" like MVD and Vinnie who spend much of their time on social media insulting Miis and their players, with their fans supporting them and spreading the hatred.
 

meeb

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I don't hate any of the characters. What Smash 4 players hate is when they can't just spam aerials and run around. Bayonetta forces you to make each button count and learn the game.
Not all characters can just sit around and spam aerials and if someone is doing that with their character they're probably going to lose any MU lol. But thats just my 2 cents.
 

Big-Cat

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I only hate Bayonetta because I hate the way you have to play against her. The match HAS to be played super slow or super campy or else you're going to lose
Your point being?
Not all characters can just sit around and spam aerials and if someone is doing that with their character they're probably going to lose any MU lol. But thats just my 2 cents.
That just illustrates my point. A LOT of Smash 4 players suck.
 

Big-Cat

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You are right. And they get rewarded with little risk and great reward characters like Bayonetta.
You're telling me that Bayonetta has little risk? The only thing that comes to mind really is dive kick. If so, this is just SF4 Rufus all over again. It's not impossible, people.
 

Managomous

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You're telling me that Bayonetta has little risk? The only thing that comes to mind really is dive kick. If so, this is just SF4 Rufus all over again. It's not impossible, people.
Nobody has once said it was impossible. They said it broke the concepts that were exciting of the game.
 

Big-Cat

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Nobody has once said it was impossible. They said it broke the concepts that were exciting of the game.
Broke the concepts? You mean like how the four newcomers to SF4 broke the concepts of Street Fighter? 3/4 were okizeme heavy, something not really present in prior SF titles. The fourth character, Rufus, had a, at the time, stupid dive kick. Look how that game turned out.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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What Big-Cat Big-Cat is saying is that Bayonetta plays on a completely different game from most smash characters like what happened with Street Fighter, people are now going to need to be more careful than randomly throwing out stuff or they will get hit and punished by Bayonetta.

Bayonetta has a lot of low risk high reward on some moves and punishes, but she is entirely tolerable. Hell she might not even be the best character right now. Despite a lot of aspects of her having low risk high reward like her dive kick.
 
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Big-Cat

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Cloud and Rosalina are the same way as well. Rosalina is the first puppeteer character in the series. And people ***** about Luma.

Cloud is the first to have a chargeable super. People complain they can't approach him charging.
 

Managomous

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0 to death. That's broken no matter how you try to reason it. You can say "Don't fall into it or you'll be punished". But that's a rather harsh punishment which nobody else has the capability of doing. You can say she has her weaknesses, and for that I agree. But she also has a lot of concepts that are unreasonable and do require nerfs.

And for not even addressing anything else of what people have said, sadness.
 
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Managomous

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She can't always do that unless you put your controller on the ground and do nothing.
"Can't always" does not mean she can't.

Aka, she has the possibility. And not true, even if you DI improperly, you lose. So.... And regardless, does it not take an insane amount of damage regardless for nothing?
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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"Can't always" does not mean she can't.

Aka, she has the possibility. And not true, even if you DI improperly, you lose. So.... And regardless, does it not take an insane amount of damage regardless for nothing?
It does, but it doesn't break the character.

She can do it as we've seen her do.

She can rack up huge damage when she gets a combo.

I get the hate, but a lot of this is again not busted in itself.

She forces a more careful and slower gameplay but in turn she doesn't do well against character whom she has to play there game instead of making people play her's.
 

TheGoodGuava

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Explain to me how a 0 to death isn't a broken concept.
Bayonetta shouldn't be hated for being "broken" because that's absolutely not true, multiple characters have performable 0 - deaths, Ryu in particular has as a semi-infinite sourspot fair footstool combo. However that's hard to perform and Ryu in general is actually hard to play. Bayonetta on the other hand has a much easier time to set up her 0-deaths, she literally has to hit a 5 frame unpunishable counter. Thats why camping against her is so effective
 

Managomous

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Bayonetta shouldn't be hated for being "broken" because that's absolutely not true, multiple characters have performable 0 - deaths, Ryu in particular has as a semi-infinite sourspot fair footstool combo. However that's hard to perform and Ryu in general is actually hard to play. Bayonetta on the other hand has a much easier time to set up her 0-deaths, she literally has to hit a 5 frame unpunishable counter. Thats why camping against her is so effective
The point of this topic was not to discuss whether there were certain options you could use against a certain character. Nobody ever said beating a certain character was impossible. However, it was to explain why certain characters are hated on, which I believe my first post pretty much clarified. They are hated on for good reason, both from a spectator position, and from an opponent position. Now the 0 to death, I can almost guarantee the developers did not intend on. Of course that's speculation. But either way, we could go back and forth on the topic regarding what is broken, and we could define it more thoroughly if need be.

However, at this point, i'm pretty sure it's becoming seen more and more, that a lot of aspects regarding Bayonetta are controversial. And for good reason too. I could sit here and argue that wobbling isn't an overpowered concept as well, considering there are so many things you can do to avoid it (Separating the ice climbers using shine, and other tactics), but does that mean that this concept isn't overpowered? There are always going to be things that can be done to try and beat something, but I think ultimately, infinites are broken (I believe they started patching certain things out no? I could have sworn I heard something about an infinite with Corrin's grab being nerfed. Or maybe I am misled).

Either way though, the fact remains, these characters are typically hated on from the spectators because it leads to a rather bland thing to watch when you see a certain character doing the same motions attempting to accomplish an easy win. And as for the opponent, being bottle-necked into a certain "play-style" which "Improves" their chance to win (But not by much because of their lack of a move ((For example, the lack of a projectile maybe))) can be very disheartening and just feel "lame" to play against.

But again, different strokes for different folks.
 

KingCapital

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Sorry if this is off topic but.......

My take on this:


Everyone thinks Bayo is 2gud
Many people hate Bayo for this
This includes top players
Top players complain
Smaller locals ban Bayo
More people complain
Time is lost complaining
This time could have been spent learning Bayo match up

This doesn't only apply to Bayo. Bayo can be replaced with insert character here. People just need to stop complaining and just find a way to play against her. WHO CARES IF YOU PLAY BORING. That is pretty much how you played in brawl against MK and ICs. When playing competitive, you are supposed to play to win. This means training and implementing anything that is cheap(and works) into your gameplay. Even when this game is played cheaply, I find it more entertaining than two meta knights spinning for a whole set.


Managomous Managomous Just so you know, there are people who actually enjoy watching bayo do combos. I myself find it much more entertaining than fthrow fair fair fair and dthrow uair to death. Thats just my personal opinion and I know a lot of spectators share this as well from what I have seen.


TL;DR: time spent complaining is time you can spend learning. people have seen much MUCH more boring gameplay before so don't worry if you have to play cheap to beat Bayo either.
 

Managomous

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Considering, I don't believe people thoroughly read the first post I made, I am going to make it easier. (In response to you as well KingCapital KingCapital )

Now again, you can't blame the competitor for using such tactics, because they are just doing what the game developers introduced to the game. But vice versa, the competitor who is using these said tactics, cannot blame the crowd or spectators for hating on them, for the reasons stated above. It provides no entertainment, it's dull, and it's just plain not exciting. Look at all the hate a person like Hungrybox receives. He is choosing the best option given to him. He is a competitor, and he has a specific goal in mind.
I don't blame Bayonetta users for using the best option that is given to them. In my opinion, it's lame and leads to lame gameplay, but that's just my opinion. It's in the game, so may as well use it.

But that's my take on it. Yes there are things you can do to try to win, and you can "Adapt", but people need to stop trying to delude themselves into thinking that certain things in this game are not broken. And just realize, this is why certain characters are being hated on and just accept it lol.
The point of this topic was to explain why certain characters were hated on. I used Bayonetta as an example due to her extreme low risk, great reward characteristics. There are other characters who have the same problem...just not as extreme. (Remember Corrin's ridiculous counter which was nerfed? I believe before the nerf, that was hated on for a reason).

Just so you know, there are people who actually enjoy watching bayo do combos.
And if this stays in the game (Which if there is another patch, i'm pretty positive it will be taken out) eventually the excitement will wear off. I argue this for the same reason that Wobbling was exciting when it was first introduced. It was new, it was fresh. Now, mmmmm not sure if anyone finds it exciting :p

Hope this helps.
 
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TheGoodGuava

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Your point being?

That just illustrates my point. A LOT of Smash 4 players suck.
people don't like watching slow matches = views go down. Competitive games are only competitive because people like watching them and I doubt anyone wants to watch some Toon Link player camp a Bayonetta for 2 minutes and then backthrow her off the stage twice.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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people don't like watching slow matches = views go down. Competitive games are only competitive because people like watching them and I doubt anyone wants to watch some Toon Link player camp a Bayonetta for 2 minutes and then backthrow her off the stage twice.
That didn't stop people watching Elena in SF4 at EVO last year.
 

TheGoodGuava

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That didn't stop people watching Elena in SF4 at EVO last year.
Smash isn't Street Fighter but answer me honestly, do you wan't to watch Hyuga/Ranai camp Pink Fresh or Salem for 20 minutes in grand finals at any competition?

EDIT: Now keep in mind no I don't hate Bayonetta, I don't think she should be banned either. What I hate is the way you have to play against her just because of one move and the people saying that shes broken because of it. If they made Witch Times duration scale with the strength of the move you hit her with it would be a billion times more balanced, you wouldn't have to worry about dying because she countered a jab at 3% (sorry thats a bit off topic)
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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Smash isn't Street Fighter but answer me honestly, do you wan't to watch Hyuga/Ranai camp Pink Fresh or Salem for 20 minutes in grand finals at any competition?

EDIT: Now keep in mind no I don't hate Bayonetta, I don't think she should be banned either. What I hate is the way you have to play against her just because of one move and the people saying that shes broken because of it. If they made Witch Times duration scale with the strength of the move you hit her with it would be a billion times more balanced, you wouldn't have to worry about dying because she countered a jab at 3% (sorry thats a bit off topic)
Some characters play that way, and honestly yeah because I like watching Toon Link play.

Villager on the other hand....
 

TheGoodGuava

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Some characters play that way, and honestly yeah because I like watching Toon Link play.

Villager on the other hand....
I wouldn't mind either if there were some mixups and stuff but because of how unsafe it is to go for that kind of stuff against her. Everything OTHER than camping is a risk that isn't really worth taking because if she hits two buttons at the right time you lose the stock. Idk maybe I'm just salty because I lost some locals to her twice but its still ridiculous how unsafe doing normal smashbros things are against her
 

Ghidorah14

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How boring it is to play against a character or how lame they play should never be a reason for banning them, or saying they're OP.

I'd argue that cloud plays incredibly lame, but w/e.
 

blackghost

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you definitely dont have to play lame against her you just need to be careful that all combos you do are ture and grab a lot more. and punish. whiffed. witchtimes. she cannot witchtime a true combo and she hates gettin grabbed and she dies early.
bayoneta players will never feel sorry for you being caught in witchtime because in the mirror match she loses more options than any other character. and dont act like everythime she touches you its a kill thats a flat lie.
 

atticusfinch7

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Because $5.99 to win? Pretty obvious here, I mean I picked up Bayo 1 week ago and got 5th in my locals whereas I never got higher than 11th.
 

atticusfinch7

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"locals"

Come back when you win a major and we'll talk.
Check out Pink Fresh on the the youtube channel VGBootcamp. Would rarely get into GF, let alone win, picks up Bayo, then gets GF every time for like 4 times in a row. I actually learned a lot from watching him; he even beat the best meta knight player out there (tyrant) with her.
 

Quantumpen

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People making the "adapt" argument are being silly -- that is no solution to incredibly imbalanced risk/reward ratios, adapting goes both ways. If you can throw out a safe move over and over and potentially confirm a kill off it while the fast majority of other players cannot do so, then that option is overpowered and it should be nerfed. Other characters shouldn't be "buffed" to compensate -- the mere existence of such an option is unhealthy for the game because you get less time to play your character.

Healthy games live in neutral, where the reward offered by an option is proportionally to how unsafe the option is. Characters should never have zero to death combos off of safe moves, no exceptions. They shouldn't be possible. I mean look how other good fighters are balanced -- If I land a CH move with super slow lag, I should get to style on you for a while. I had to predict something and punish it, I deserve a nice reward (probably not to 0 to death you though...) and if I'd missed that option then you could blow me up too. You can throw out jabs, but the damage scaling will be nuts and you won't get NEARLY as much from opening up the other player. This forces intelligent use of ones buttons and keeps the game where it belongs -- between the TWO PLAYERS. A match should never look like a single combo video where a single mistake means the match.

This is why healthy games don't have infinites, 0 to deaths, or any other jank crap. It's why game companies who see their games as competitive routinely try to patch that crap out of the game. They understand game balance better than you do. Sure, Bayo's 0-to-deaths can be DI'd, but it's only a matter of time before people master her and learn to read the DI -- and then that will be an overpowered option. Something being hard to do has nothing to do with whether it's overpowerd -- there will always be players who master even the most absurdly difficult of techniques.

Her 0 to deaths, along with any other 0 to deaths in the game should be removed and I'm astounded anyone would argue to the contrary. I almost guarantee you they'll be gone in 1.1.6. They'll make them good for dealing damage but decrease the carry or modify the angle so you fall out before the kill.
 
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