You do realize people tend to push and expect things from new games right?
Of course. If I didn't, I wouldn't be complaining about this as much as I have.
The fact that you genuinely believe this sentence means you really don't understand my logic whatsoever. So, if you may, allow me to elucidate you on my stance.
My issue isn't with bandwagoning in general. At it's worst, it's an unavoidable reality of speculation that affects every fanbase whether big or small. Personally, I don't even see it as a strictly bad thing, since that's one of the main ways that fans of certain characters come into the fold: they hear about a character they may not have any experience with, and they decide to back them because they're popular (by whichever metric you wish to use) or they believe them likely to join Smash, and in the course of following this speculation they begin to get into the character's series and play their games, becoming a full-on, dyed-in-the-wool supporter.
Rather, my issue is with a specific form of bandwagoning, one that's more tied to a line of thought than it is any one character. In it's simplest terms, the idea is that new game/fanchise/DLC gets announced, or some rumor or piece of speculation comes out that catches on, and as a result of this, a character from such is now considered either more likely, or outright a shoe-in, to join Smash. BotW!Zelda is the example I used, however she isn't the only character to whom this line of logic applies to.
Despite your assessment that I'm some bitter boomer yelling at these newfangled characters because I want
le ebin magic puppet man, a good number of characters I believe fall victim to this are characters that I not only believe would be completely fine joining Smash, but also ones that are significantly old, those of which being Monster Hunter, Dante, and Ryu Hayabusa.
- Monster Hunter is a franchise that I don't have much experience with, however I'm well aware of how much of a culture phenomenon it is, especially in it's homeland, and Rathalos was a cool addition to Smash as is, so I would in no way take issue with them getting a character in Smash.
- Dante from the Devil May Cry™ series is a character I don't have much experience with, however I believe he would be a fun addition to Smash... unless his trailer doesn't have him and Bayonetta squaring off and he doesn't come with Devil Trigger as one of his music tracks, in which case I don't want him anywhere near Smash.
- Ryu Hayabusa, unlike the other two listed above, is a character who I actually have some limit experience with via my time playing (and eventually beating) the original Ninja Gaiden on NES. As such, I would very much love to see him in Smash.
As for why these guys are victims of this sort of bandwagoning I'm talking about...
- 2 new Monster Hunter games were announced recently in their own dedicated Nintendo Direct, so people have been lead to believe a Monster Hunter character is likely coming to Smash.
- Hideki Kamiya does a poll asking people which of his characters they'd like to see in Smash, and the first three DMC games are re-released for the Switch, so people have begun to believe that Dante is very likely as DLC for Smash. (Though I will say with regards to the latter point, it certainly doesn't hurt his chances.)
- IAmShifty professed that Ryu Hayabusa would be the last DLC fighter for Fighters Pass Vol.1, and for whatever reason people believed him and remain convinced that he's still coming as DLC for Vol.2.
Now I'm not saying that any of these characters can't or won't come to Smash. (Except for BotW!Zelda for Vol.2, though that assessment goes well beyond this topic.) Hell, I think Dante actually has a pretty good chance of making it in. But again, my issue is with the mentality that "new game = more likely for Smash". Just because the Crown Tundra DLC just dropped doesn't mean we're guarenteed or even likely to get a Gen VIII Pokemon as DLC. Just because Suda 51 didn't want to comment on Travis for Smash doesn't mean he's more likely to join than anyone else. (By the way, R.I.P. Travisbros.) Just because a new original IP from Nintendo has
LITERALLY JUST BEEN ANNOUNCED does not mean they're coming to Smash in the immediate future. While we've had instances of this in the past, which is almost entirely limited to Pokemon and Fire Emblem, it's largely a falacy and it does nothing to help us figure out who's coming to Smash.
And since I'm still responding to this section of your post, I'll point out that most of the characters you listed there actually wouldn't fall under what I'm talking about.
Furthermore, you are stretching this "shoo in" mentality. Even the highest end scores still say she is far from a shoo in. I don't see every other post in this thread saying BotW Zelda is a shoo in just because Age of Calamity exists. Surprise surprise, while plenty of us entertain the idea, she is not seen as a complete lock.
Well, I've seen plenty to the contrary, but since this is largely relative I guess we can agree to disagree on this point.
>le Star Wars gif
At the risk of sounding shallow and pedantic, this ain't ****in' twitter mate. Keep your sassy gifs in your pocket, or at the very least don't use gifs from the objectively worst Star Wars movie.
Let us start off with the fact Smash tends to represent relatively recent franchises/characters and new developments on the era that preceded them.
Actually, let's not, because this entire point is nothing but a strawman. I never said they don't typically include characters from the current era in which each game was made, obviously they do. My point was that they don't typically do promotional picks for characters, with the sole exceptions of Roy (Included to promote his at the time soom to be released game) and Corrin (Included to promote the worst modern Fire Emblem game). This point actually ties in to what I was saying earlier about relevancy-based bandwagon characters. (For lack of a better term.)
BotW is represented in Smash, but given Nintendo is making a canon spin off and a sequel, it is clear it will keep growing in that regard. It is the future of Zelda. Music from BotW2 or AoC could easily be sold in a pass, there could easily be another stage, and given how AoC and BotW2 will introduce new versions of characters and new characters, it is easy to imagine them making a spirit board while still putting in existing spirits like they did with Min Min.
Sure, they could add new stuff, they could always add new stuff, but BotW is a bit of a different beast compared to ARMS prior to Min Min's release.
- Unlike BotW, ARMS didn't have any music tracks in the base game.
- Unlike BotW, ARMS didn't have a stage in the base game.
- Unlike BotW, ARMS only had 5 Spirits in the base game as opposed to the 8 (9 if you include Link's Fighter Spirit) included in the base game, which is almost enough to fill an entire DLC Spirit Board all on it's own. (The most we've ever gotten from a DLC Fighter is 11.)
- Unlike BotW, ARMS as a whole was significantly less represented in the base game.
All of these facts combined, plus simply comparing her to any of the other more diverse and exciting DLC fighters thus far (and Byleth), makes the idea of selling BotW!Zelda as a DLC Fighter incredibly difficult. I mean, why buy BotW!Zelda who'll come with a bunch of content that's already in the game when you can pick up Banjo, Terry or Steve, who are completely unique (both in terms of gameplay and visual design) and bring along with them plenty of unique, quality content that you'd never find in the base game?
As for your final point, you could do honestly whatever with the character. Make her moveset borrow moves from Link in BotW. Wouldn't be the first time they did that with Zelda, you never see her use the OoT spells that make up the core of her moveset in the games. You could splash some Musou elements in if you wanted to but there is no need. The BotW system seems like it is a good choice on its own. Given how everyone and their mother expects Zelda to be playable in BotW2, I would not be surprised if they chose that direction for her.
Again, you completely misunderstood what I was saying here. I wasn't talking about her moveset potential, I was referring to the content she could bring with her as I've described above.
Gameplay and Story Segregation. There is a difference in how a games story is shown through gameplay and through its cutscenes. The fact of the matter is that AoC shows Zelda is not as helpless as it would seem, at least compared to how you are illustrating it. Heck, your own argument about the Master Sword proves it. While in your playthrough you might have glitched to get the sword, in canon, Link does the trials. In gameplay Zelda might be a strong combatant, but in the story Link is her champion for a reason.
Define Irony: Someone arguing the exact argument I was making against someone else right back to me whilst under the impression that I made the argument someone else made.
The argument that person was making was that Zelda's moveset in Age of Calamity can be used as the basis for her moveset in Smash because Age of Calamity is canon to the BotW universe. I countered by pointing out how Musou games tend to over-exaggerate a character's competency in combat for gameplay purposes, and that Age of Calamity's canonicity doesn't matter in that regard and shouldn't be taken as an accurate reflection of Zelda's canonical power level. In other words, Gameplay and Story Segregation.
I hate to sound like a condescending asshole here, but you really need to do a better job at reading and comprehending what people are saying before you type out long, angry diatribes like this.
You have to remember that that was in 2016. Now it is 2020. We not only have a sequel to a mainline Zelda game, which alone is rare especially on this scope, we have a canon spinoff. BotW Zelda could easily be seen as worth a second look with two whole games more of content to look over and represent, especially given the more distinct direction the BotW part of the series has gone.
I don't doubt that BotW is a major sub-franchise for Nintendo, but being a popular, successful or relevant part of modern Nintendo history does not a DLC fighter for Smash make. Using recency as an argument in favor of a character's chances is a fallacy that many Smash speculators fall into, and I daresay it makes speculation much more obnoxious than it would be otherwise.
Also, I don't know how this argues against the statement you were responding to whatsoever.
First of all, you really are downplaying how much timing helps characters. It is part of the reason Rex is seen as far more likely than Elma.
Actually, Rex is seen as more likely than Elma because:
- XCX is considered the red-headed stepchild of the Xenoblade series, whereas XC2 is massively beloved and popular. I mean sure, Elma was added to XC2 as a DLC blade, but the general attitude
- Much like an ARMS character, Rex was actually considered for inclusion in Smash Ultimate base game but just barely missed the boat, and since Min Min got in as DLC it would make sense for Sakurai to also go back for Rex since his game has been out for well over a couple years now.
- Rex and the Numa Numa Crew are more appealing to general audiences compared to Elma due to their massive Ara Ara energy. I mean, have you SEEN all the lewd images made of the three of them!? 100% FLAWLESS LOGIC, YOU CAN'T ARGUE AGAINST IT!!
But even beyond that, you clearly are strawmanning everyone who thinks that BotW Zelda has a decent chance.
So... people
haven't been pushing BotW!Zelda for Vol.2 recently because of Age of Calamity? People have
always thought BotW!Zelda was very super-dee-super unlikely? Well ****, I guess all those videos I saw of people stating the exact opposite were total fabrications, then. All joking aside, this isn't exactly a point that either of us will be able to convince the other of so again, agree to disagree.
For starters, as I have shown with characters who have actually gotten in, it is not a useless piece of information.
If that were true in the slightest, you would've understood my position and made reasonable counterpoints to it, instead of misinterpreting my point and going off on some unrelated tangent, all the while insulting me
While the characters that are the new hotness are generally going to get a strong look, it is important to have more of an argument other than just they are new.
I never made this argument against Inkling, nor did I ever make this argument against Joker, nor did I ever make this argument against Byleth, nor did I make this argument against Min Min. Just to make sure this rings crystal clear for you, allow me to reiterate: I do not have an issue with new or recent characters being added to Smash. I have never once argued that a character should not or could got make it into Smash due to being a newer character. That has never been by position, nor will it ever be my positon, save for more specific instances such as a character having made their debut mere moments ago.
You do not see as many people speculating on Ring Fit Adventure or another Animal Crossing character for instance, despite both being big hits on the Switch.
With regards to Animal Crossing, nobody's speculating about a new character because we got Isabelle in the base game, but even before then Isabelle was a very commonly discussed character back in the day. With regards to the RingFit Trainee, people began speculating about this character coming to Smash as soon as their game was revealed, and only died down once their Spirit event happened.
It is important to build your character's case or the case against them. Legacy, Fan Demand, Recent Releases, Worldwide appeal, and more. All important parts of speculation.
Ehh, most of those are debatable:
- Legacy doesn't matter. If it did, newer characters like Joker, Banjo or Min Min would've been excluded altogether.
- Recent Releases don't mean anything, as I've mentioned to the point of redundancy.
- Worldwide Appeal doesn't matter. Sakurai has explicitly expressed this very sentiment with regards to Terry during Terry's Presentation (Timestamp 5:40): "Whether or not the character is fun to play as is more important than whether the character is new or old, or whether the character is recognizable to everyone."
Fan Demand is probably the only one of these points that I feel has
some merit, at least with regards to Ultimate. Based on the characters we've gotten thus far, as well as several statements made by Sakurai, it very much seems that fan demand is one of the core tenants that has dictated who they've chosen for Ultimate, even putting aside the big NEVER EVER characters Ridley, K. Rool and Banjo:
- Splatoon was a surprise hit and the series is considered one of Nintendo biggest tentpole franchises, which is beyond incredible for such a young franchise. As such, Inkling was a character that people not only wanted to join Smash, but fully expected to join Smash.
- Castlevania content in general had been highly requested by fans for a long time, and it was this demand that lead Sakurai to include Simon, Richter, and a whole host of Castlevania content to the game. Source
- While the Animal Crossing has always been very popular, especially with more casual gamers, Isabelle in particular had captured the hearts of many due to her cute design and friendly disposition.
- Daisy, Chrom, Dark Samus and Ken were some of the most highly requested characters in Smash for a while now, which is why they became Echo Fighters, with Sakurai having gone on record stating that Chrom and Dark Samus were specifically chosen due to their high demand in Japan and North America & Europe, respectively. Source
- Dragon Quest has always been very popular in Japan, to the point that people would skip school or work just to buy the newest game. As such, there was plenty of demand from that region for Dragon Quest content in Smash.
- Most recently, the immense demand from fans the world over to see Steve, or Minecraft content in general, in Smash was ultimately the reason why they decided to include Steve to begin with.
Ironically enough, despite this recurring trend of fan demand being one of the most common deciding factors in who gets chosen for Ultimate, I've seen no shortage of people severely downplay this aspect, if not completely ignore it, in favor of everything else you've listed. "What? You think [X Character] could make it in because the fans really want them? HOW ABSURD! [X Character] isn't popular enough! [X Character] doesn't have a legacy! [X Character] hasn't been in enough games! The only thing that [X Character] has is their fan demand, and even then it's most likely just people bandwagoning!". But I digress.
Boiling it down to I do not like any modern character that gets a smash push from fans is honestly what actually makes speculation dull.
Well, it's a good thing I don't say anything like that then, isn't it?
It is people who instead of looking at every aspect of the character and instead gatekeep what people can want that are what makes speculation dull.
Wow, I had no idea that I had the power to prevent people from wanting characters in Smash.
But seriously, how is recycling the exact same terrible, fallacious argument for every currently relevant character not incredibly dull? Why is it that you feel you can dictate to me what is and isn't dull with regards to speculation and accuse me of doing likewise to you and others, when I did no such thing? Especially considering you can't even bother to explain to me how such repetitive argumentation
isn't dull?
I saw how you got into a massive argument on Sora's day which boiled down to "I really want Geno and never Played KH so Sora is basically every other swordsman"
Listen, I'm sorry that I believe Sora will just end up being Cloud 2.0, and thus find him boring. I'm sorry I was never willing to subject myself to babby's first Devil May Cry™ game, a game with a plot so long and convoluted that they had to make an entire game to try and explain all of it. But most of all, I'm ESPECIALLY sorry that I'd prefer we get one character in Smash before we get another. I swear, I tried really, REALLY hard not to let it happen but I-I just... I just couldn't do it!
or your honestly toxic attitude towards Travis fans when their character got deconfirmed.
Which is definitely what I did. I didn't try to make it crystal clear in that post that I was mocking the very same relevancy-based bandwagoning attitude that I've been very staunchly criticizing both in this post and others, and I
certainly didn't try to explain that I would've said the same thing if it were literally any other character who is currently subjected to this relevancy-based bandwagoning. Nah, I just dropped in to tell Travisbros to eat ****, much like I totally did to Stevebros when Banjo was revealed, because I'm a petty--
>B-BUT TRAVIS HAS A NEW GAME COMING OUT SOON! HE'S SUPER RELEVANT! AND SUDA 51 REFUSED TO COMMENT ABOUT TRAVIS IN SMASH! HE DEFINITELY GOING TO BE A FIGHTER!
Let this be a lesson to all of you who think that relevancy and having a new game coming out decides who's getting in.
Oh wait, what? Who put
this here? Wait a second, could... could this be that very post I made back on the 3rd that you're referring to?! BY JOVE, IT IS!! And look, it appears that some
despicable neerdowell decide to
embolden the very quote that explains my motivation in posting that comment to begin with! What's more, it appears that
emboldened comment is entirely congruent with what I've been saying all along! Hell, there's not even any direct insult to Travisbros whatsoever! My word, this is incredible!
Before you gatekeep what people want, strawman what people are saying, and gloat when a character is deconfirmed, try to keep an open mind, civilly debate characters, and make a coherent argument next time.
Maybe next time you decide to make a lengthy response to someone else's post, you'll actually read what they said and understand what arguments they're making, rather than erecting strawmen, misinterpreting damn near everything they say, and making a complete ass of yourself. Maybe next time you'll try not to let your baseless, misinformed anger dictate how you respond to someone, and will instead think calmly and logically about what you'll say to refute their points. And maybe next time you'll learn to simply let people have their own opinions, rather than raking them over the coals and attacking their character.
And as a closer, since you've made me aware of the awesome power I hold over other people, I'll simply end by saying this: You're allowed to want BotW!Zelda for Smash. Don't let my take stop you from wanting whoever you want in Smash. After all, I'm just a random guy on the internet, and in actuality I hold no power over your opinions.
Also, make better arguments next time.
