Rate Their Chances- Smash Ultimate Day 340 - Lara Croft (Tomb Raider)

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In the original VN? Sexuality's definitely the main gameplay focus. I'd even argue that it's still a main point of the character design, to a tamer degree.
Err it isn't. Sexuality isn't the main focus of the VN, if it was then they wouldn't have easily removed it in the updated version. Stay Night is a visual novel that focuses on choices that may lead you to a game over or a different ending. Nasu even said the sexual scenes were forcibly added to appeal to the market back then. You could take them out and the game wouldn't be changed that much, that's how non-consequential they are.
 

Artix

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In the original VN? Sexuality's definitely the main gameplay focus. I'd even argue that it's still a main point of the character design, to a tamer degree.
Not really. It only show up in some few scenes and it's not integral to the main story. Besides, Saber doesn't go all naked during fights against other Servants like Bayonetta does.
 

Sysmek

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In the original VN? Sexuality's definitely the main gameplay focus. I'd even argue that it's still a main point of the character design, to a tamer degree.
What are you on about

Sexuality isn't the game's main focus at all. Actually the erotic scenes in the original VN are literally 1% of the entire game. The game is about 100 hours on average if not more depending on how fast you read and if you let it auto read (I took about 100 hours), and the erotic scenes all combined add up to about 30 minutes of gameplay.

Not to mention they all happen at the very end of each given route (so about 25-35 hours in). The only time they don't happen in the end is in Heaven's Feel, where they happen at the middle. Not only that but HF is locked till you complete the other two routes (Fate and UBW). Which would be ~60-70 hours


And sexuality isn't the main point of the character design. Actually the Writer (Nasu) and the Character Designer (Takeuchi) commented on how weird it was for an Eroge to have very tame character designs, even more so than regular games at the time. They said the most "Sexually Appealing Character" was Rider, and even she's super tame.

Back to the topic of "Sexuality is the main gameplay focus", Nasu (the writer) didn't even want Erotic Content in his game at all. The only reason he had it there in the first place was because of the market at the time, simply put if you made a VN without Erotic Content it wouldn't sell at all. Hell, theres a strong argument that could be made that IF games like Fate/stay night, Muv-Luv, Tsukihime, etc. never existed VN's would STILL have to have Erotic content in them. Meaning that things like Ace Attorney, Steins;Gate, Danganronpa, Prof. Layton, etc. either wouldn't exist at all or would have Erotic Content

Anyways back to the topic, the writer and co-founder of the company hated the fact that he needed Erotic Content in his story so much that he refused to write the scenes. The character designer, Takeuchi, instead wrote them for him. And after the game was sold and gained a fanbase, every subsequent re-release and the remaster of the game cut the Erotic Content entirely.


You clearly haven't played the game or looked into anything about it. It's obvious based on what you're saying
 
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Ninjaed

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Yes. I'm aware. I said so in the rest of the post. Again, my point was about the amount, not the content itself. If I recall, the original Stay/Night has, like... 3 or so scenes like that, right? All of which were cut from the original anime adaptation to the point that if you didn't play the games (like me), you wouldn't even be able to tell it's an eroge at first glance.

I can understand people's concerns with this, but... objectively speaking, it wouldn't be the worse thing that happens in one of the Smash-associated universes. Far from it. And even from what little I know, Fate can stand up on its own feet without that, so hypothetically, it's even easier to deal with than Bayo's clothes or Joker and Snake's weapons, because you don't even need to associate the mature stuff with their gameplay.
If memory serves, there were 7 scenes (2 for each girl)? Don't quote me on this, it's been more than a decade since I played it. Plus one that is used to explain Sakura's backstory... which is basically being kidnapped, estranged from her remaining family (sister) after the rest was killed, then physically, sexually and emotionally abused by both her new "brother" and his grandfather (disgusting worms, yuck). As for those that were consensual and stuff... the writing is infamous for being whacky instead of arousing. Like Sysmek said, Nasu didn't even want that in and was very prompt to jump on the first occasion to get rid of them.

Chance: 15%

Even if it's doing fairly well nowadays, there still remains the issue of its origins, and that Type-Moon is strictly limited to its Nasuverse - Fate and Tsukihime. As for her moveset, she'd be a generic anime swordsman... who really is a woman (le gasp, spoilers). You'd have the invisible sword, Avalon, command spell, wall jump (+ cling?), Mana Burst and Excalibur. You can make something fun and unique out of that, possibly introducing a gimmick based on how frigging much mana she consumes.

Want: 30%

I wouldn't mind either way. If she's in, I know Sakurai will give her a good kit that's fun to play with. If she's not in, no skin off my back really.

Nom nom nom: Amaterasu
 
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If memory serves, there were 7 scenes (2 for each girl) + one that is used to explain Sakura's backstory... which is basically being kidnapped, estranged from her remaining family (sister) after the rest was killed, then physically, sexually and emotionally abused by both her new "brother" and his grandfather (disgusting worms, yuck). As for those that were consensual and stuff... the writing is infamous for being whacky instead of arousing.
Aah, yes, I had "2 or 3" in mind because of the first anime adaptation, which was basically Saber's story. You can imagine how I reacted when I found out it was an eroge after seeing the anime, which has none of that.

I think the others made the point clear and, again, the goal isn't to say Fate is likely for Smash, or even say anything about its quality, but to give my final note on this (because I think I've clogged this thread for long enough):

There is a big difference between "a game with sex scenes" and "a game with sex as its main theme". The scenes are not a mechanic or a goal of the game. They're there as part of the story, but that's it. As far as I'm aware, Fate isn't anything like Leisure Suit Larry, for example.
 
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Err it isn't. Sexuality isn't the main focus of the VN, if it was then they wouldn't have easily removed it in the updated version. Stay Night is a visual novel that focuses on choices that may lead you to a game over or a different ending. Nasu even said the sexual scenes were forcibly added to appeal to the market back then. You could take them out and the game wouldn't be changed that much, that's how non-consequential they are.
Not really. It only show up in some few scenes and it's not integral to the main story. Besides, Saber doesn't go all naked during fights against other Servants like Bayonetta does.
What are you on about

Sexuality isn't the game's main focus at all. Actually the erotic scenes in the original VN are literally 1% of the entire game. The game is about 100 hours on average if not more depending on how fast you read and if you let it auto read (I took about 100 hours), and the erotic scenes all combined add up to about 30 minutes of gameplay.

Not to mention they all happen at the very end of each given route (so about 25-35 hours in). The only time they don't happen in the end is in Heaven's Feel, where they happen at the middle. Not only that but HF is locked till you complete the other two routes (Fate and UBW). Which would be ~60-70 hours


And sexuality isn't the main point of the character design. Actually the Writer (Nasu) and the Character Designer (Takeuchi) commented on how weird it was for an Eroge to have very tame character designs, even more so than regular games at the time. They said the most "Sexually Appealing Character" was Rider, and even she's super tame.

Back to the topic of "Sexuality is the main gameplay focus", Nasu (the writer) didn't even want Erotic Content in his game at all. The only reason he had it there in the first place was because of the market at the time, simply put if you made a VN without Erotic Content it wouldn't sell at all. Hell, theres a strong argument that could be made that IF games like Fate/stay night, Muv-Luv, Tsukihime, etc. never existed VN's would STILL have to have Erotic content in them. Meaning that things like Ace Attorney, Steins;Gate, Danganronpa, Prof. Layton, etc. either wouldn't exist at all or would have Erotic Content

Anyways back to the topic, the writer and co-founder of the company hated the fact that he needed Erotic Content in his story so much that he refused to write the scenes. The character designer, Takeuchi, instead wrote them for him. And after the game was sold and gained a fanbase, every subsequent re-release and the remaster of the game cut the Erotic Content entirely.


You clearly haven't played the game or looked into anything about it. It's obvious based on what you're saying
Yeah I'm sorry, but to claim the sex wasn't the main point of an H-game is hilarious. I'm not even gonna touch that.

Edit: though I will say that I'm glad that clearly some people found something else to enjoy there and that's gotta count for something

To answer the last guy:

1) 30 minutes of sexual content is no small thing.

2) Ace Attorney predates Fate by 3 years, and there had been several successful VNs before it (without sexual content) so the claim that Fate is responsible for the success of the VN is seriously misinformed.
 
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PapillonXtreme

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Before I rate her chances and want, I would like to address some issues:

1. Sexuality isn't the main point of the series. Sure, it's still there but it doesn't affect the impact of the story pretty much. Plus you have the option to skip these Eroge scenes whatever you want.

2. It's alright to hate a series, but don't make it to the point where you're being incredibly bias towards it. I can understand all the hate, but there are other people out there who are interested to see Saber in Smash. All I'm saying is don't discourage these kind of people.

Saber

Chance: 15%
Honestly, she has a chance to get in Smash. The Fate series is really popular in Japan and while she's not as demanding as other characters, I can definitely see this as a Sakurai pick to be honest. The only concern is that she originated from an Eroge game, but if they can add Bayonetta into Smash, then I'm pretty sure it wouldn't hurt their pride in adding Saber in Smash. Besides, it's not even integral in her moveset like Bayonetta does so I see no issue about sexuality that most of these people are talking about. The only competition that she has to face is fellow VN character Phoenix Wright. Other than that, she has a chance in a world where any video game character can get in Smash.

Want: 95%
Saber is one of the characters that I would love to see in Smash. She could bring something new like the Command Seals, invisible sword and wind powers. Plus, a Fuyuki City stage would be dope to see in Smash as we could have a lot of cameos from other Servants and Masters.

Predictions:
Kyle Hyde - 0.44%

Nomination:
Kasumi (Dead or Alive) x5
 

Sysmek

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Yeah I'm sorry, but to claim the sex wasn't the main point of an H-game is hilarious. I'm not even gonna touch that.

Edit: though I will say that I'm glad that clearly some people found something else to enjoy there and that's gotta count for something

To answer the last guy:

1) 30 minutes of sexual content is no small thing.

2) Ace Attorney predates Fate by 3 years, and there had been several successful VNs before it (without sexual content) so the claim that Fate is responsible for the success of the VN is seriously misinformed.
I said Tsukihime as well, lmao

Tsuki came out in 2000 FYI, and for a long time it was known as the God/Pinnacle of VN's. Hell, TM at the time was such a big deal that they got banned from attending the 2008 Summer Comiket for "causing disorder."

Not intentionally, it's just that the line for their booth was so long that it filled half of the west 4F hall. It was (and still may be) the longest line in Comiket history.
 

PapillonXtreme

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I said Tsukihime as well, lmao

Tsuki came out in 2000 FYI, and for a long time it was known as the God/Pinnacle of VN's. Hell, TM at the time was such a big deal that they got banned from attending the 2008 Summer Comiket for "causing disorder."

Not intentionally, it's just that the line for their booth was so long that it filled half of the west 4F hall. It was (and still may be) the longest line in Comiket history.
Whoa really? I didn't know that.

But seriously though, why are these people making sexuality such a huge deal? They can easily be ignored and it wouldn't hurt the character's presentation overall. This is, like, my first time visiting a thread where there's a large bias towards Fate.
 

Ninjaed

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Whoa really? I didn't know that.

But seriously though, why are these people making sexuality such a huge deal? They can easily be ignored and it wouldn't hurt the character's presentation overall. This is, like, my first time visiting a thread where there's a large bias towards Fate.
Because kids can't know about reproduction and sex. It's bad, y'see? Shooting guns, slicing others to death and stuff is fine, though. I love our society.
 

Nquoid

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Because kids can't know about reproduction and sex. It's bad, y'see? Shooting guns, slicing others to death and stuff is fine, though. I love our society.
Yup, because the sex scenes in the original Fate/stay night are completely fine for kids to see. Kids SHOULD know more about sex and reproduction. But I'm not going to sit a child down with this game to learn that. Or even as an example of what sex and sexuality in media should look like.

The closest thing I can think to compare stay night to is Caligula, sure you can cut the sex and just get a movie with Helen Mirren and Peter O'Toole, but that doesn't change the fact that theres a version with literal pornography.

I'd also say the same thing about Doom, kids shouldn't be playing it, and I think the fact that violence is rated less seriously than sex is a fundamental flaw with western society.

But at the end of the day, IF Saber got into Smash Ultimate, does the logo go x Fate/stay night or Fate/Grand Order? The eroge or the gacha game, because honestly neither make me comfortable.

And let's stop with the false equivalency to Bayonetta? 'Bayonetta gets naked and is sexualised and SHE got in Smash, they can do the same for Saber'. If you can find me the scene in Bayonetta 1 or 2 where she has uncensored penetrative male POV sex then they're the same.

You can want Saber in Smash. Fine. Want and support who you want. But please don't act like people who don't want her are being prudes or biased. Because there's a long list of reasons as for why Saber shouldn't be in Smash.
 
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Sir Arthur is a woman!?

Chance: 10%

She's definitely a viable candidate seeing as Fate is a popular VN series and it got even more popularity with the gacha game worldwide. She's a character not to be simply overlooked. However I feel that Ace Attourney would be more likely as an option since Phoenix is more of a darkhorse pick than her despite Ace Attourney's lower popularity in Capcom's library.

Want: 5%

Ehh not really a fan of the series. I'm more prone to Ryukishi's When They Cry series for Visual Novels.

Prediction Kyle Hyde: 0.66%

Nominate Sol Badguy x5
 

PapillonXtreme

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Yup, because the sex scenes in the original Fate/stay night are completely fine for kids to see. Kids SHOULD know more about sex and reproduction. But I'm not going to sit a child down with this game to learn that. Or even as an example of what sex and sexuality in media should look like.

The closest thing I can think to compare stay night to is Caligula, sure you can cut the sex and just get a movie with Helen Mirren and Peter O'Toole, but that doesn't change the fact that theres a version with literal pornography.

I'd also say the same thing about Doom, kids shouldn't be playing it, and I think the fact that violence is rated less seriously than sex is a fundamental flaw with western society.

But at the end of the day, IF Saber got into Smash Ultimate, does the logo go x Fate/stay night or Fate/Grand Order? The eroge or the gacha game, because honestly neither make me comfortable.

And let's stop with the false equivalency to Bayonetta? 'Bayonetta gets naked and is sexualised and SHE got in Smash, they can do the same for Saber'. If you can find me the scene in Bayonetta 1 or 2 where she has uncensored penetrative male POV sex then they're the same.

You can want Saber in Smash. Fine. Want and support who you want. But please don't act like people who don't want her are being prudes or biased. Because there's a long list of reasons as for why Saber shouldn't be in Smash.
Whatever. I still believe she has a shot in getting in Smash and you can't change my mind.

At least she is more likely to get in than Goku will ever be.
 

Strider_Bond00J

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I just want a small bit of clarification - who is Kyle Hyde? Are we talking about AVGN's nemesis Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde? Or is it Hyde from Under Night In-Birth? Sorry if this comes across as ill-informed, since I'll probably abstain on him too.

As for Saber:
Chance: 5%
Fate has definitely become a big-time media franchise as a result of FGO. The real question is whether or not it's a property that Nintendo feel like it's something they want to promote through Smash Bros. I don't see that as being likely, and given that the series origins as an eroge/visual novel might put-off people who aren't all too familiar with Fate in the first place... It's hard to say.

Saber definitely has plenty of cool abilities and swordplay at her disposal as wielder of Excalibur, but would that really stand out in the grand scheme of things, compared to several other fantasy sword users from Nintendo's own works like Fire Emblem?

Want: 5%
I have an up-and-down relationship with Fate. Sure I like seeing fan-art of the characters from time to time, played FGO and have a number of favourite/liked characters Iskandar/Alexander the Great (TEAM WAVER SHOULD'VE BEEN FATE/ZERO PROTAGS NO TAKEBACKS), Astolfo, Jeanne d'Arc, there are some parts of Fate that I'm not so fond of. AKA The worst characters in existence Ryuunosuke Uryuu and Gilles de Rais, the gameplay loop of FGO, maybe becoming a bit too overexposed as a franchise and selling itself through fan-service that almost falls it back into an eroge...

I'm much more partial to Phoenix Wright as a true visual novel character. Sure, Saber could be unexpected and cool if executed right, but I don't think she belongs in Smash Bros.
 
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I just want a small bit of clarification - who is Kyle Hyde? Are we talking about AVGN's nemesis Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde? Or is it Hyde from Under Night In-Birth? Sorry if this comes across as ill-informed, since I'll probably abstain on him too.
Kyle Hyde is the main character from two Nintendo visual novels, Hotel Dusk and Last Window.
 

Ninjaed

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Kyle Hyde is the main character from two Nintendo visual novels, Hotel Dusk and Last Window.
Yeah, he won't be in. No need to think too hard about this one when you've got so many better reps to choose from. Phoenix Wright existing completely invalidates the guy.
 
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Sysmek

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I just want a small bit of clarification - who is Kyle Hyde? Are we talking about AVGN's nemesis Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde? Or is it Hyde from Under Night In-Birth? Sorry if this comes across as ill-informed, since I'll probably abstain on him too.

As for Saber:
Chance: 5%
Fate has definitely become a big-time media franchise as a result of FGO. The real question is whether or not it's a property that Nintendo feel like it's something they want to promote through Smash Bros. I don't see that as being likely, and given that the series origins as an eroge/visual novel might put-off people who aren't all too familiar with Fate in the first place... It's hard to say.

Saber definitely has plenty of cool abilities and swordplay at her disposal as wielder of Excalibur, but would that really stand out in the grand scheme of things, compared to several other fantasy sword users from Nintendo's own works like Fire Emblem?

Want: 5%
I have an up-and-down relationship with Fate. Sure I like seeing fan-art of the characters from time to time, played FGO and have a number of favourite/liked characters Iskandar/Alexander the Great (TEAM WAVER SHOULD'VE BEEN FATE/ZERO PROTAGS NO TAKEBACKS), Astolfo, Jeanne d'Arc, there are some parts of Fate that I'm not so fond of. AKA The worst characters in existence Ryuunosuke Uryuu and Gilles de Rais, the gameplay loop of FGO, maybe becoming a bit too overexposed as a franchise and selling itself through fan-service that almost falls it back into an eroge...

I'm much more partial to Phoenix Wright as a true visual novel character. Sure, Saber could be unexpected and cool if executed right, but I don't think she belongs in Smash Bros.
You'd probably like El-Melloi Case Files then, since Waver is the protagonist of that and it heavily references Fate/Zero
 

Sid-cada

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Saber

Chance - 2.5% - In this world when anything can happen, she has a small shot. I recall in a Direct that Fate had something on the Switch, so regardless on your feelings on the matter, at least Nintendo is OK with the series as of now. While there seems to be some amount of popularity, I don't know how much she would bring; the real breadwinner right now for her series is a gatch game, which Nintendo have been trying out recently. Admittedly, while I'm not the most qualified to talk about her, I don't see it.

Want - 40% - There are third parties that better held my interest. I would rather take them over her.


Predictions

Kyle Hyde - 0.24% - Why...?


Nominations

Farmer X5
 
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I really don't feel like joking about Fate. I almost got into it, but never got around to it.

Chance: 15% should be good. Apparently she counts as a game character, which means she qualifies, but methinks that Saber isn't that much a cut above the rest to warrant inclusion. I dunno, FGO is massive but I am not quite sure if it's enough to put her on Nintendo's radar, considering the parent company has no prior representation in Smash to lean off of. I guess it could happen, but something about this character doesn't seem likely. Guess it's just a hunch, though I'm hesitant to totally rule out the possibility.

Want: Not opening this can of worms any further than anybody else. I will abstain because I've noticed things almost got very heated. Though, I will say that I am unsure how I feel about content from what was once pornography getting into Smash, it's unlikely that game would be represented for that content.

Arle Nadja x 5.
 
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You call that Sir Arthur? He looks like a woman!

Chance: 1%
Any character, so long as they are a game character, immediately gets at least 1%. That said, considering her origins, I can't say I see her likely. There are better options for Gacha games with Dragalia Lost and Granblue. For VN's, Pheonix Wright is the obvious choice. Popularity is one thing, I have a hard time seeing Nintendo agreeing to this pick, since of course, they are still doing the majority of the DLC picks this time around.

Want: 0%
Eh... I'll pass. I'm sorry, it'd just feel really weird having a character with the origin she has in Smash. Heck, Bayonetta fell into an uncomfortable territory with me, and this isn't anywhere near a close comparison. That said, I'm glad the series has been able to evolve into more, but it's just not for me. It doesn't help much that VN's aren't really my cup of tea, and again, I'd vastly prefer Pheonix given I had the choice. As for her fighting style, she uses a... you gotta be kidding me, a sword. Ouch, OK, unless you can do something, very, very unique with a sword, I'm most likely not gonna look favorably on you. Sorry.

Prediction:
Kyle Hyde: Hmm, DS era eh? Two games? If I recall, Golden Sun had 3, and things didn't turn out so well... I'm going with 3.39%.

Nominations:
Captain Rainbow x5
 
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Sir Arthur the Wahman
Chance: 0%
Want: **** NO!

Fate is one dumpster fire that I'm not ok with touching Smash Bros, and I think I already addressed this when rating Nero Claudius a while back. (I've made some minor edits.)
Zero Percent Claudius (+ Knuckles)
Chance: 0%
Want: 0%

PROS
-She's hot?
NONE!


CONS
-Solely Eastern based
-Extremely obscure
-This will cause more confusion than hype.
-Pointless inclusion. Almost everything about this character is covered by some of the FE characters.


Do I really need to explain this? The nickname says it ALL. She's just as likely as the Badly Drawn Dog from the Impossible Quiz. This is by far one of the most random characters I've ever seen rated on this thread. (Maybe less random than Django and Hanafuda though.) At the end of the day, she's just an anime waifu with a transparent ball gown (which is just weird...) and a sword, the sword being something we have loads of thanks to FE. The main character of the series barely even has a chance anyway! At least I'll be taking her before all of my least wanted section however. SEPTEMBER EDIT: They are both in my least wanted. Oh how time changes. If only Smashboards would fix their god damn website and let people see my least wanted list.
We have some very minor improvements here. Saber is the main character, and at least her name isn't stolen from the LITERAL Roman figure. She is based of King Arthur, and still genderbent however. But all the other cons that I haven't removed stay in effect. Obscurity, eastern exclusivity, overall questionable choice, and why would Sakurai ever add a character barely anyone is requesting?

:ultcorrin:"My fate is clear!"
Oh...

At least he's from a recognizable franchise. But why do I want Fate out of Smash completely? I think GoodGrief741 GoodGrief741 and PokéfreakofBACON PokéfreakofBACON explained it well enough. Remember the transparent ball gown part I mentioned earlier? This game tries way too hard to be sexy and fails at it imo. It just sounds like a porn game, which is something I'd rather not have in Smash...

Kyle Hyde: 0.68% (why?)

The Horrible Goose x5
 
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Sysmek

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Light Flaming Warning
Sir Arthur the Wahman
Chance: 0%
Want: **** NO!

Fate is one dumpster fire that I'm not ok with touching Smash Bros, and I think I already addressed this when rating Nero Claudius a while back. (I've made some minor edits.)


We have some very minor improvements here. Saber is the main character, and at least her name isn't stolen from the LITERAL Roman figure. She is based of King Arthur, and still genderbent however. But all the other cons that I haven't removed stay in effect. Obscurity, eastern exclusivity, overall questionable choice, and why would Sakurai ever add a character barely anyone is requesting?

:ultcorrin:"My fate is clear!"
Oh...

At least he's from a recognizable franchise. But why do I want Fate out of Smash completely? I think GoodGrief741 GoodGrief741 and PokéfreakofBACON PokéfreakofBACON explained it well enough. Remember the transparent ball gown part I mentioned earlier? This game tries way too hard to be sexy and fails at it imo. It just sounds like a porn game, which is something I'd rather not have in Smash...

Kyle Hyde: 0.68% (why?)

The Horrible Goose x5
tfw bayonetta is more lewd than 99% of fate and furthermore type-moon

guess that means you hate the fact that a "porn series" is already in smash huh

oh yeah, guess you forgot a literal 15 foot tall penis monster is in persona 5. his name is mara in case you were unaware


oh and to add to the fire did you know that one of the xenoblade artists draws hentai?

the amount of bias you have is insane lol

also, fate is a recognizable franchise. the billion fgo makes per year on average proves this. just because you don't know who it is doesn't make them unknown. also, her and her series have been top trending worldwide on twitter multiple times. to add, Type-Moon recently did a live stream on youtube for their various projects and it had 200k+ viewers. Something akin to a Nintendo Direct on Youtube or Twitch

Not only this but Type-Moon got banned from Comiket (one of the biggest JP conventions) from 2006-2008 for causing disorder. What happened was that their line was so long (the longest in history in fact), that it filled half of the entire west 4F hall. And this was in 2006, so imagine now
 
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Nquoid

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tfw bayonetta is more lewd than 99% of fate and furthermore type-moon
That last 1% is pretty important

guess that means you hate the fact that a "porn series" is already in smash huh
If you can find me the actual porn in Bayonetta I'll retract everything I've said.

oh yeah, guess you forgot a literal 15 foot tall penis monster is in persona 5. his name is mara in case you were unaware
Earthbound has a fetus as a boss. There's a penis on a course in Mario Kart. You can have content that is sexual or anatomical without it being what happens in stay night or hollow atraxia

oh and to add to the fire did you know that one of the xenoblade artists draws hentai?
I'll care when he puts those into Xenoblade 3 as part of the story progression of the game.

the amount of bias you have is insane lol
You mean subjective opinions that we're all entitled to have? Because the only "bias" here is not wanting something that started off as otaku **** games in Smash.
 
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Sysmek

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That last 1% is pretty important



If you can find me the actual porn in Bayonetta I'll retract everything I've said.



Earthbound has a fetus as a boss. There's a penis on a course in Mario Kart. You can have content that is sexual or anatomical without it being what happens in stay night or hollow atraxia



I'll care when he puts those into Xenoblade 3 as part of the story progression of the game.



You mean subjective opinions that we're all entitled to have? Because the only "bias" here is not wanting something that started off as otaku **** games in Smash.
No you're right. There isn't actual porn in Bayonetta. But that's because it didn't literally need it to survive. You can read one of my previous posts on here for a more in depth explanation, but basically at the time a VN wouldn't be successful if it didn't have porn in it. The creator, hating this and refusing to write it made the character designer/artist write those scenes instead. To add to this, every subsequent re-release and the remaster of Fate/stay night and Fate/hollow ataraxia have no nudity at all.

So to reverse your statement, go find some porn in Realta Nua or the Vita version of Hollow Ataraxia. Spoiler alert, you can't

You can have your opinions just like I have my opinions. I never said that it was wrong to have an opinion, I just pointed out clear bias. There is a difference between opinions, and straight up bias. There is no point in discussions if you cant look at the facts and disregard your own personal bias'
 
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Nquoid

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No you're right. There isn't actual porn in Bayonetta. But that's because it didn't literally need it to survive. You can read one of my previous posts on here for a more in depth explanation, but basically at the time a VN wouldn't be successful if it didn't have porn in it. The creator, hating this and refusing to write it made the character designer/artist write those scenes instead. To add to this, every subsequent re-release and the remaster of Fate/stay night and Fate/hollow ataraxia have no nudity at all.

So to reverse your statement, go find some porn in Realta Nua or the Vita version of Hollow Ataraxia. Spoiler alert, you can't

You can have your opinions just like I have my opinions. I never said that it was wrong to have an opinion, I just pointed out clear bias. There is a difference between opinions, and straight up bias. There is no point in discussions if you cant look at the facts and disregard your own personal bias'
In the case of visual novels, what about Snatcher? Policenauts? Phoenix Wright? Saying it couldn't be successful is just wrong. They went after a particular controversial fan base and obviously succeeded.

And the version of stay night that has sold the best is still the original version on PC., before it was altered. Most people who have played the visual novel have played the version with the pornographic elements to it. No matter which way you cut it, that is part of the history of the series. And it's part of the history which is going to come up and is going to cause controversy if Saber ever made it into Smash. Just look at this thread as a very minor example of what happens when the series is removed from it's fan base for discussion.

And that's before we get to the fact that the game has never been localised outside of Japan, something which Sakurai is noticeably hesitant to do, having said he wouldn't have added Lucas to Brawl if he knew Mother 3 wasn't being localised.

What are you saying the bias is though? People don't like the franchise because it started out as an eroge? The definition of bias is "unfair prejudice", there's nothing unfair about that interpretation because that IS how it started out. Has the series evolved? Sure, but none of the non-visual novel games are particularly good and the most successful one is a gacha and honestly, **** that.
 

Neosonic97

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No you're right. There isn't actual porn in Bayonetta. But that's because it didn't literally need it to survive. You can read one of my previous posts on here for a more in depth explanation, but basically at the time a VN wouldn't be successful if it didn't have porn in it.
I'm not one who's trying to use Fate's origins as an eroge against it (though I do argue they're overstating how crucial it even is to the series- originally the creator didn't even want it in, hence why he refused to write such scenes), but as correctly stated by Nquoid, VNs at the time did NOT need that to be successful. The first Ace Attorney game (Read: Phoenix Wright) released a full three years before Fate/Stay Night (Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney released in 2001, Fate/Stay Night released in 2004), so this argument is just not true.


One more thing...

Remember the transparent ball gown part I mentioned earlier? This game tries way too hard to be sexy and fails at it imo.
To be fair, Nero Claudius is one of the biggest examples of sexualized design in the entire series, alongside fellow Fate/Extra playable servant, Tamamo no Mae (and in one particular spin off of the Fate series, Carnival Phantasm, she even lampshades it).
 
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Sysmek

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In the case of visual novels, what about Snatcher? Policenauts? Phoenix Wright? Saying it couldn't be successful is just wrong. They went after a particular controversial fan base and obviously succeeded.

And the version of stay night that has sold the best is still the original version on PC., before it was altered. Most people who have played the visual novel have played the version with the pornographic elements to it. No matter which way you cut it, that is part of the history of the series. And it's part of the history which is going to come up and is going to cause controversy if Saber ever made it into Smash. Just look at this thread as a very minor example of what happens when the series is removed from it's fan base for discussion.

And that's before we get to the fact that the game has never been localised outside of Japan, something which Sakurai is noticeably hesitant to do, having said he wouldn't have added Lucas to Brawl if he knew Mother 3 wasn't being localised.

What are you saying the bias is though? People don't like the franchise because it started out as an eroge? The definition of bias is "unfair prejudice", there's nothing unfair about that interpretation because that IS how it started out. Has the series evolved? Sure, but none of the non-visual novel games are particularly good and the most successful one is a gacha and honestly, **** that.
Of those 3 you just mentioned, the only truly successful one is Phoenix Wright. You could chalk that up to different things like it being backed by Capcom, having more gameplay than traditional VN's, etc. Also, im sure he got a decent popularity boost from being in UMvC 3.

And again, it's 1000x easier for a VN made by Capcom to get traction, over a VN made by a couple of dudes (Which is what 99% of VN's are)

Actually I don't think the official sales numbers have ever been released for Stay Night. Care to link a source? Because i've never seen them. All im seeing right now is a baseless assumption.

Also, yeah FSN has never been localized outside of Japan. But it's various adaptations have, not only that IIRC Fire Emblem wasn't localized outside of Japan before Marth and Roy got into Melee.

Im saying the bias is calling it a complete porn game with characters trying to be overly sexy when the most sexually appealing character in Stay Night is Rider, whose design isn't revealing at all. Its more tame than what you'd find in majority of other games. Saying "Fate" isn't popular is either just pure bias or ignorance. I shouldn't need to explain AGAIN as to why that is.

Saying none of its Non-VN games aren't that good is again, an opinion. A lot of people like Extra, CCC, Extella, and Link. Actually, there are people that JUST like the Extraverse and don't care for Stay Night.

There are also A LOT of people who like Strange Fake, Zero, and or Apocrypha. Which started as Light Novels.

Then you have things outside the Fate Worlds, like Melty Blood. Which was so huge that it got fan voted onto Evo Mainstage back in 2010, over Street Fighter 3rd Strike.
 
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Neosonic97

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Of those 3 you just mentioned, the only truly successful one is Phoenix Wright. You could chalk that up to different things like it being backed by Capcom
And again, it's 1000x easier for a VN made by Capcom to get traction
Capcom=/=Successful. Lest we forget, around the time that Fate/Stay Night was released, Capcom also managed to make a complete mess of the Mega Man Battle Network series when they released Mega Man Battle Network 4. I don't think the series ever truly recovered from that. Lest we forget the OTHER various Mega Man-related disasters over the years.

Also, im sure he got a decent popularity boost from being in UMvC 3.
This I can agree on though. Were it not for UMvC3, Phoenix Wright wouldn't be considered feasible. It was UMvC3 that convinced people that he could work.
 
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Sysmek

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Capcom=/=Successful. Lest we forget, around the time that Fate/Stay Night was released, Capcom also managed to make a complete mess of the Mega Man Battle Network series when they released Mega Man Battle Network 4. I don't think the series ever truly recovered from that. Lest we forget the OTHER various Mega Man-related disasters over the years.



This I can agree on though. Were it not for UMvC3, Phoenix Wright wouldn't be considered feasible. It was UMvC3 that convinced people that he could work.
TFW I actually liked Battle Network and the Manga that came with it... rip

Also, I wasn't saying that slapping their name onto something makes it automatically successful, I was more so trying to say that anything made by them has a way bigger chance at being successful than something made by some indie studio (Which at the time is what Type-Moon was)
 
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Can we PLEASE not turn this into a Saber debate thread? Let's just let it go and get back to routine. Anyways...

Sonic and the Black Night's Older Sister

Chance: Abstain. I don't know what Sakurai thinks of VN's or if Type Moon ever considered letting Saber make an appearance in Smash.

Want: 50% I've never played a Fate game, but wouldn't mind either way.

Noms: Adeleine and Ribbon (re-rate?) X5
 
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Nquoid

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Of those 3 you just mentioned, the only truly successful one is Phoenix Wright. You could chalk that up to different things like it being backed by Capcom, having more gameplay than traditional VN's, etc. Also, im sure he got a decent popularity boost from being in UMvC 3.

And again, it's 1000x easier for a VN made by Capcom to get traction, over a VN made by a couple of dudes (Which is what 99% of VN's are)

Actually I don't think the official sales numbers have ever been released for Stay Night. Care to link a source? Because i've never seen them. All im seeing right now is a baseless assumption.

Also, yeah FSN has never been localized outside of Japan. But it's various adaptations have, not only that IIRC Fire Emblem wasn't localized outside of Japan before Marth and Roy got into Melee.

Im saying the bias is calling it a complete porn game with characters trying to be overly sexy when the most sexually appealing character in Stay Night is Rider, whose design isn't revealing at all. Its more tame than what you'd find in majority of other games. Saying "Fate" isn't popular is either just pure bias or ignorance. I shouldn't need to explain AGAIN as to why that is.

Saying none of its Non-VN games aren't that good is again, an opinion. A lot of people like Extra, CCC, Extella, and Link. Actually, there are people that JUST like the Extraverse and don't care for Stay Night.

There are also A LOT of people who like Strange Fake, Zero, and or Apocrypha. Which started as Light Novels.

Then you have things outside the Fate Worlds, like Melty Blood. Which was so huge that it got fan voted onto Evo Mainstage back in 2010, over Street Fighter 3rd Strike.
But Snatcher and Policenauts are still spoken of, which makes them more successful than most of the eroges that supposedly had to be that way. And Ace Attorney had released 6 games by the time UMvC3 came out, so I have no clue what that means. And Capcom decided to release their game on the GBA, type-moon released along with a magazine specialising in adult games... They knew what audience they were aiming for with this series.

The 400,000 sales comes from Akihito Shoji and then the sales of the PS2 and Vita versions come out at 206,495 and 144,993 copies respectfully. Obviously that first number is fuzzy, but if it sold at a minimum 400,000 copies, then that is more than 50% of all copies of the game.

You're correct on Marth and Roy, but I what i quoted was about Lucas which happened after and shows that Sakurai has become hesitant to do that as the series has progressed.

Fair enough, it isn't a straight up complete porn game. But as it stands, 2 games in the franchise have (had) 100% more pornography in them than any other franchise currently in Smash.

A lot of people like a lot of things, but if we look at Famitus scores, tiger colosseum got 25/40, unlimited codes got 28/40, extra got 29/40 and Extella got 31/40. Getting progressively better over the course of the series, but hardly setting the world on fire in terms of critical response.

I'm also going to say, I don't think anything outside of the world of video games holds any weight towards a game getting into Smash. This is a video game crossover, and Fate needs to stand by what it has put out into the world of video games.

And I've never said the franchise isn't popular. I do however think it's the wrong kind of fanbase and message if it were to get into Smash. We can all point to fan polls or votes that have been hijacked by one particularly excitable fanbase wanting to prove something. GameFAQs voted Undertale the greatest game of all time in 2015, I don't think anyone would argue that was a genuine display, just a super passionate fanbase wanting to prove something. Look at the list of games that Melty Blood beat; Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike, Capcom vs. SNK 2, Marvel vs. Capcom 2, Soulcalibur IV, and The King of Fighters XII, I don't even think fans of Melty Blood would argue it's a better game than those, they just thought it was cool that might get to see something they like represented in that way. It speaks volumes that it was never played on the Evo main stage after, butall those other games are mainstays.
 
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---

アロエ サファイア
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Please take it down a notch. I don't know much of anything about Fates, but honestly, judging by the current discussion it may be better to skip this given character entirely.
 
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As of right now, this thread is literally a Saber debate thread. Much to my chagrin.

Though maybe it's time to change days. Whenever TCT~Phantom shows up.
Shhh, don't sass him or he'll delay it again. :4pacman:

Also, can someone remind me when the new Top 7 lock/purge will happen? I wanted to know if we'll get another one before Terry releases, because it's likely Challenger Pack #5 will be unveiled in either November or December, so...
 
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TCT~Phantom

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As of right now, this thread is literally a Saber debate thread. Much to my chagrin.

Though maybe it's time to change days. Whenever TCT~Phantom TCT~Phantom shows up.
But I was having fun watching the debate >_>.

3BitSaurus 3BitSaurus hmm...


Yes the day will end tonight I just had a cold and was in bed all day.
 
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DaUsername

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Funny Saber Joke Name Goes Here
Chance: 0.01%
I'd imagine if Nintendo wanted to shill mobile gacha game, they'd do one of their own. So unless Sakurai has some secret obsession with Fate, or the "third parties only" thing turns out to be true, I don't see this happening.
Want: 0%
From what I know, Saber is a character from a mobile gacha game that uses a sword. So pretty much everything I hate. Saber has no reason to be in Smash.

Kyle prediction: 1%
Noms: Another western character x5
 

Tetrin

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Well before the day ends...

Saber

Chance: 20%

I'd hardly consider Fate to be this obscure third party series like some other picks I see on here. I think most people here know what it is, but the key word in this sentence is most people here. The third party selection is adorned with a number of iconic, beloved, and realizable characters-- it's fair to say that Saber has quite the competition in each of those categories, especially the "iconic" bit. I mean, could even a Fate fan confidently argue that Saber has cemented herself among characters like Sora, Master Chief, and Rayman?

At the same time, though, could a Persona fan argue that Joker is a gaming staple? Could a Fatal Fury fan blame the masses for having no clue who Terry even was? The iconic factor that goes into character choices has undeniably faded, but I nonetheless feel as though Saber just isn't recognizable enough for Smash's target audience.

Want: 50%

I'll admit my knowledge of Fate is rather scant, and Saber being inherently less gimmicky than the Hero may cause difficulty in making her feel like an original fighter. However, the gap is not so mammoth that Saber will automatically be some boring fighter, and it's my belief that any character can play uniquely with the right care gone into their set. For all I know, Saber could be one of the most enjoyable and distinctive fighters out there. Like I said, my knowledge of Fate is laughable so I probably sound like a pretentious exhibitionist to anyone who knows what they're talking about, but it's because I've so little knowledge of the franchise that I wouldn't mind seeing how she would translate into Smash.

Nominations:
Gordon Freeman x5
 
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