Rate Their Chances- Smash Ultimate Day 340 - Lara Croft (Tomb Raider)

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Steve

Chance: 40%
A game that's already 9 years old and yet still shows up on Youtube's trending lists on a daily basis is a game with one heck of a foot in the door. Minecraft is already the defacto icon of a young generation, and the flurry of mimicry that followed it - that's to say, the sudden re-interest in concepts like crafting, sandbox worlds, and procedural generation - only cement this game's influence. If Nintendo really wanted to nominate an indie game, or to reach out to children the same way Pikachu alone got kids to try out Smash Bros, then a Minecraft representative is one of the best choices they could make.

But the avatar himself is not his game. Steve's hope is to Villager his way into Smash, despite being owned by a company that would profit more from the inclusion than Nintendo would likely be comfortable with. If it weren't for Microsoft's shadow, people would be giving this a much more enthusiastic chance. (Well, unless they were put off by the cringe-inducing behaviors of the young'uns that this game inspired.)

Want: 15%
I'm too old to get into it, and honestly, I've yet to see Steve himself have much character to espouse for. But a stage would be grand.


Predictions
Excitebiker: 8%
Pyra/Mithra: 10%

Nominations:
Item Concept: Breidablik x5
 

Esquelen

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Chance:
5%

I just do not see it, maybe Minecraft is a pretty iconic videogame for the youtubers and known all over the world (even when I had to fill some tests to go to a digital academy in one of the questions they asked me was Minecraft lol)

But I think it must be more time for Minecraft to be in Smash, all the Third-partys of Smash (minus Bayonetta) are many years old, Minecraft is too young.

Want: 0%

I was never interested in Minecraft.
 

Strider_Bond00J

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Freakin' Steve...

Chance: 2.5%
Minecraft's owned by Microsoft. Although it's available on several platforms, and sees some Nintendo skins on Switch versions, I just don't see any real mainstream chance for him, unless it's kids, amongst which Minecraft is insanely popular. He could get in, and possibly use stuff like his Diamond Swords, Pickaxes, terraforming... So he does have potential to him in terms of moveset.

As for Want: Imma let Weiss speak for me.

0%
Absolutely no desire or true care for MineCraft in any form. If, and if freakin' Steve gets in, he's gonna be an eternal punching bag. At least he's not PUBG (worst game of 2017) or Fortnite character. Which would be even worse.

Even if I wanted a Microsoft character, Banjo & Kazooie, Jago or Fulgore or even Master Chief would be my picks.

Nominations: Yu Narukami X5
Pyra (Standalone, I'm assuming? Or is it Pyra and Mythra?) prediction: 20%
 
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Steve?
Chance: 15%
Genuinely Steve(?) represents one of the biggest video gaming success stories in the modern era. Steve(?) is entirely possible whether we like it or not.

Want: 0%
That said, there's a pickaxe weilder I want more than Steve(?) and a whole heap of other third parties I'd prefer. I would not be shocked at all with his inclusion but I don't have any Minecraft experience so I'm a bit of an outsider to the whole appeal.

Nominations:
Meowth X 2
Slippy Toad X 2
Fire Emblem Heroes Summoner X 1
 

JamesDNaux

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Double zeroes.

Call me biased, but I only gave my most wanted character a 1% chance, and that was just because of what Phil Spencer said. I don't know why anyone suddenly has the idea that Steve is an even remotely possible joke character, he's owned by Microsoft. They wouldn't just have to jump through the usual third party hoops, they'd have to make a deal with a direct competitor. Third parties in Smash are all highly requested legacy characters* and Steve has no legacy and is very clearly the opposite of highly requested. No character, let alone a third party is going to get in as a joke.

*The only exceptions for highly requested legacy characters are Snake and Bayo. Snake got in with just a single request, but he was still a legacy character, Bayo isn't a legacy character, but she won the ballot.
 

Depressed Gengar

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Steve Chance: 35%
Undeniably requested frequently, Minecraft is popular in Japan, and Microsoft's definitely willing to negotiate (I mean, if they're OK with Banjo, I can't see them saying no to Steve). Honestly, that's about as good as it gets for a third party... but I'm still iffy on his chances because I have a hard time seeing Steve work well in Smash. A really hard time.

Want: 50%

Excitebike Prediction: 10%
Pyra/ Mythra Prediction: 5%

Nominations: Gengar X5

:094:
 
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Double Abstain, I haven't got the foggiest idea about Minecraft, and I don't want to pretend I have any knowledge of it to make an accurate prediction.

Excitebike: 9%
Pyra/Mythra: 4.56%

x5 to Gengar
 
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PsychoJosh

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Minecraft Steve
Chance: 0%
Want: 0%


The only argument I've heard about why Steve should be in Smash is because "Minecraft is popular". Well, sorry, Billy, but that's not good enough. If sheer popularity were the only thing that determines whether or not a character gets in we'd have seen characters from Grand Theft Auto, Call of Duty and Madden in Smash a long time ago. These franchises are not represented because they are just as out-of-place in a game like Smash as Minecraft would be.

Minecraft is a third party franchise owned by a direct competitor to Nintendo, which is problem number one. Microsoft themselves haven't even shown any enthusiasm towards having Minecraft characters in Smash, suggesting Banjo the bear as their playable representative instead. Minecraft was created by a programmer who didn't really seem to give any forethought or care into how the game would look or be received, and as a result, it has a very awful art style that makes a terrible attempt at replicating early 3D PC games. The only problem is, early 3D PC games did not look like Minecraft. They did not have deliberately cube-shaped objects, characters and enemies, and attempted to deliver graphics with as much realism and high quality as they possibly could, with their only limitation being the power of the hardware they were using at the time. Minecraft throws this history out the window for the sake of very simplistic and blocky characters that don't look anything like the classic games they are attempting to emulate.

I think this reason alone is sufficient to keep Minecraft out of Smash for a very long time - you see, the artists working on Smash take the utmost care in making sure characters look as beautiful and close to their original game art as possible, while also giving them an art style that lets all the characters blend in with each other. Because of Minecraft's extremely amateurish and terrible art style attempting to recreate PC games of the 90s, the Smash artists would have a really tough time trying to make him look good enough in Smash and not stick out like a sore thumb - essentially they would have to completely design an original model for him, which would most likely look nothing like the original character model from the game due to how amateurish it is.

I don't mean this in a condescending way, but I honestly, truly believe that the only people supporting Steve getting in Smash are ten year olds, or sub-18 minors who grew up with Minecraft and don't have any consideration for the standards of Smash. It's just "I played Minecraft a lot so I think he should be in Smash". Well, you know what? People in hell want ice water.
 

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Minecraft Steve
Chance: 0%
Want: 0%


The only argument I've heard about why Steve should be in Smash is because "Minecraft is popular". Well, sorry, Billy, but that's not good enough. If sheer popularity were the only thing that determines whether or not a character gets in we'd have seen characters from Grand Theft Auto, Call of Duty and Madden in Smash a long time ago. These franchises are not represented because they are just as out-of-place in a game like Smash as Minecraft would be.

Minecraft is a third party franchise owned by a direct competitor to Nintendo, which is problem number one. Microsoft themselves haven't even shown any enthusiasm towards having Minecraft characters in Smash, suggesting Banjo the bear as their playable representative instead. Minecraft was created by a programmer who didn't really seem to give any forethought or care into how the game would look or be received, and as a result, it has a very awful art style that makes a terrible attempt at replicating early 3D PC games. The only problem is, early 3D PC games did not look like Minecraft. They did not have deliberately cube-shaped objects, characters and enemies, and attempted to deliver graphics with as much realism and high quality as they possibly could, with their only limitation being the power of the hardware they were using at the time. Minecraft throws this history out the window for the sake of very simplistic and blocky characters that don't look anything like the classic games they are attempting to emulate.

I think this reason alone is sufficient to keep Minecraft out of Smash for a very long time - you see, the artists working on Smash take the utmost care in making sure characters look as beautiful and close to their original game art as possible, while also giving them an art style that lets all the characters blend in with each other. Because of Minecraft's extremely amateurish and terrible art style attempting to recreate PC games of the 90s, the Smash artists would have a really tough time trying to make him look good enough in Smash and not stick out like a sore thumb - essentially they would have to completely design an original model for him, which would most likely look nothing like the original character model from the game due to how amateurish it is.

I don't mean this in a condescending way, but I honestly, truly believe that the only people supporting Steve getting in Smash are ten year olds, or sub-18 minors who grew up with Minecraft and don't have any consideration for the standards of Smash. It's just "I played Minecraft a lot so I think he should be in Smash". Well, you know what? People in hell want ice water.
I'm 22 and have never so much as touched Minecraft and I wouldn't be bothered if Steve got in, provided his moveset was fun. And it very well could be. I'd take him over e bear and bird any day, personally. At least Steve is iconic.

That and Microsoft didn't "suggest" Banjo. Someone requested him and they said they'd have no qualms with it. Big difference.
 

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I'm 22 and have never so much as touched Minecraft and I wouldn't be bothered if Steve got in, provided his moveset was fun. And it very well could be. I'd take him over e bear and bird any day, personally. At least Steve is iconic.

That and Microsoft didn't "suggest" Banjo. Someone requested him and they said they'd have no qualms with it. Big difference.
Oh boy. There's the "i-word" again that everyone likes to throw around here despite not having a clue what it means. Not touching that one.

ANY character could have a "fun" moveset, that isn't a criteria that matters. You could come up with a moveset for anything. You could come up with one for a Goomba if you wanted to, that doesn't mean a Goomba should be playable in Smash. Why not, though? Goomba meets all the same criteria as Steve supposedly does. He's iconic and famous. He "could" have a fun moveset (just like literally any character you could think of since fun is subjective). There's a good reason why Goomba isn't playable in Smash, and that's because Smash has standards. Smash isn't MUGEN. We don't need a million crappy filler non-characters.
 
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Oh boy. There's the "i-word" again that everyone likes to throw around here despite not having a clue what it means. Not touching that one.

ANY character could have a "fun" moveset, that isn't a criteria that matters. You could come up with a moveset for anything. You could come up with one for a Goomba if you wanted to, that doesn't mean a Goomba should be playable in Smash. Why not, though? Goomba meets all the same criteria as Steve supposedly does. He's iconic and famous. He "could" have a fun moveset (just like literally any character you could think of since fun is subjective). There's a good reason why Goomba isn't playable in Smash, and that's because Smash has standards. Smash isn't MUGEN. We don't need a million crappy filler non-characters.
I'd say there's a big difference between a generic enemy and the mascot of one of the single biggest gaming franchises.

Like it or not, Steve is iconic. One look at him and you say "that's Minecraft." There are toys and action figures sold of him, pick axe props sold at each and every Gamestop, and a million mass-produced Halloween costumes at Walmart each October. Steve and Minecraft became woven into pop culture the same way Mario, Pac-Man, Sonic, Pikachu, Lara Croft, and Master Chief have. He's in the same spot as Link: even if they can't specifically name him, they know what game he's from. Samus, Marth, and Kirby wish they could be at that level.

And that, I think, is worth something, which is why I'd be fine with seeing him playable.
 
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Oh boy. There's the "i-word" again that everyone likes to throw around here despite not having a clue what it means. Not touching that one.

ANY character could have a "fun" moveset, that isn't a criteria that matters. You could come up with a moveset for anything. You could come up with one for a Goomba if you wanted to, that doesn't mean a Goomba should be playable in Smash.
How is Steve not iconic?

There's literally not a single game with a protagonist that's sold better than Minecraft. The only better selling video game is Tetris, and it's just blocks.
 

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How is Steve not iconic?
I didn't say any such thing. And again, I'm not touching the poop.

I'd say there's a big differences between a generic enemy and the mascot of one of the single biggest gaming franchises.
No, I'm sorry, I don't think there is. Goomba meets all the exact same criteria as you say Steve has. Instantly recognizable, has plenty of toys and merchandise made of him, is one of if not the most "iconic" gaming enemy ever made. Explain how I'm wrong? The only difference is their role in the game - Goomba's an enemy and Steve is a protagonist (and an empty shell of one at that, he's just a character you can reskin to look like anybody, which is something that even Goomba has an advantage over him). Why can't he be in Smash instead of Steve?

The point I'm trying to make should be very clear.
 
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I didn't say any such thing. And again, I'm not touching the poop.



No, I'm sorry, I don't think there is. Goomba meets all the exact same criteria as you say Steve has. Instantly recognizable, has plenty of toys and merchandise made of him, is one of if not the most "iconic" gaming enemy ever made. Explain how I'm wrong? The only difference is their role in the game - Goomba's an enemy and Steve is a protagonist (and an empty shell of one at that, he's just a character you can reskin to look like anybody, which is something that even Goomba has an advantage over him). Why can't he be in Smash instead of Steve?

The point I'm trying to make should be very clear.
You're right that Super Mario Bros. is hugely iconic. That's why we have MARIO.

Goomba's equivalent is a Creeper. Steve's equivalent is Mario himself. Your comparison is horrid.
 

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You're right that Super Mario Bros. is hugely iconic. That's why we have MARIO.

Goomba's equivalent is a Creeper. Steve's equivalent is Mario himself. Your comparison is horrid.
Not really. There have been many other Mario characters in Smash and Goomba would just be an addition to the Mario part of the roster. He fulfills all the same criteria as Steve, so again, I'm asking, why can't he be in?
 

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Not really. There have been many other Mario characters in Smash and Goomba would just be an addition to the Mario part of the roster. He fulfills all the same criteria as Steve, so again, I'm asking, why can't he be in?
Minus the obvious fact the he doesn't have arms or much of anything that sets him apart (which Steve has), Goombas are not the protagonists of one of the single biggest video games of all time. Steve is.

Your comparison is embarrassingly bad.
 

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Minus the obvious fact the he doesn't have arms or much of anything that sets him apart (which Steve has), Goombas are not the protagonists of one of the single biggest video games of all time. Steve is.
He doesn't have arms? So what? Goomba sidekicks in the Paper Mario series could fight despite not having arms. This actually DOES set Goomba apart from most of the cast. You've literally proven the opposite of the point you're trying to make. What does Steve have that sets him apart? A bow and arrow? A sword? We already have a character with those things.

Whether or not Goombas have been a protagonist is moot. They're highly famous antagonists of one of the single biggest video games of all time. So really this is all just arguing semantics.

I've wasted enough time on this and you still seem very slow to catch onto the point, so I'll just tell you. A third party character being "iconic" is almost COMPLETELY irrelevant to whether or not they get in Smash. A character getting into Smash is the combination of MANY factors acting in their favor, not simply one. And that's all that Steve is, a one-trick pony. His "one trick" is his game's popularity. He's not unique, he's not interesting, he's not thoughtfully designed, he's extremely dated, he's amateurishly modeled visual-wise, and he's not in high demand as a Smash character. All the third party characters who got into Smash so far have had ALL these qualities in their favor. Steve does not. As a Smash candidate, he barely has anything going for him outside of his popularity and the sheer novelty of his visual appearance.

A game's immemorial "classic" quality is more important than how famous they are. Timelessness outlives and prevails over popularity.

Because there's way better Mario candidates?
Yes. Thank you.

Please don't mistake me as supporting Goomba for Smash, I'm merely trying to illustrate a point.
 
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He doesn't have arms? So what? Goomba sidekicks in the Paper Mario series could fight despite not having arms. This actually DOES set Goomba apart from most of the cast. You've literally proven the opposite of the point you're trying to make. What does Steve have that sets him apart? A bow and arrow? A sword? We already have a character with those things.

Whether or not Goombas have been a protagonist is moot. They're highly famous antagonists of one of the single biggest video games of all time. So really this is all just arguing semantics.

I've wasted enough time on this and you still seem very slow to catch onto the point, so I'll just tell you. A third party character being "iconic" is almost COMPLETELY irrelevant to whether or not they get in Smash. A character getting into Smash is the combination of MANY factors acting in their favor, not simply one. And that's all that Steve is, a one-trick pony. His "one trick" is his game's popularity. He's not unique, he's not interesting, he's not thoughtfully designed, he's extremely dated, he's amateurishly modeled visual-wise, and he's not in high demand as a Smash character. All the third party characters who got into Smash so far have had ALL these qualities in their favor. Steve does not. As a Smash candidate, he barely has anything going for him outside of his popularity and the sheer novelty of his visual appearance.

A game's immemorial "classic" quality is more important than how famous they are. Timelessness outlives and prevails over popularity.



Yes. Thank you.

Please don't mistake me as supporting Goomba for Smash, I'm merely trying to illustrate a point.
Here's a tip: don't talk down to someone while spouting nonsense. If you can't see the major difference between a generic enemy from an already-represented series and the main character from a huge unrepresented series, I don't know what to tell you.
 

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Here's a tip: don't talk down to someone while spouting nonsense. If you can't see the major difference between a generic enemy from an already-represented series and the main character from a huge unrepresented series, I don't know what to tell you.
You've failed to address any of my points, which isn't surprising as I knew you had no argument from the moment you first quoted me.

I'll just end this by saying Banjo is in significantly higher demand than Steve as a Smash fighter. This is an objective fact and there's a good reason for it. Deal with it.
 
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You've failed to address any of my points, which isn't surprising as I knew you had no argument from the moment you first quoted me.

I'll just end this by saying Banjo is in significantly higher demand than Steve as a Smash fighter. This is an objective fact and there's a good reason for it. Deal with it.
Lol someone's angry. I did address your points. Your points were pretty bad, but I did address the ones worthy of being addressed (as in, the ones that weren't opinion based like "he would look weird").
 

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Lol someone's angry. I did address your points. Your points were pretty bad, but I did address the ones worthy of being addressed (as in, the ones that weren't opinion based like "he would look weird").
You did not. I made several good points about all the factors working in favor of the other third party Smash characters in that last comment of mine that Steve does not possess, that you completely ignored. If you're not going to address these points then you've lost the argument. Simple as that.
 
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I've wasted enough time on this and you still seem very slow to catch onto the point, so I'll just tell you. A third party character being "iconic" is almost COMPLETELY irrelevant to whether or not they get in Smash. A character getting into Smash is the combination of MANY factors acting in their favor, not simply one. And that's all that Steve is, a one-trick pony. His "one trick" is his game's popularity. He's not unique, he's not interesting, he's extremely dated, he's amateurishly modeled visual-wise, and he's certainly not in high demand as a Smash character. All the third party characters who got into Smash so far have had ALL these qualities in their favor. Steve does not.
Sakurai said:
While it’s true that we’ve added characters from other companies, it’s not going to be anyone and everyone.

Smash is a game that’s made from everyone’s effort. Both companies have to want the character to join the battle.

I need them to let me take charge of the character. In order to fit the character into the world of Smash, I need them to allow me some artistic license.

The character must carry game history with them.

Besides that, it might be something like a courtesy to include a character who has the experience of being on a Nintendo platform.
Sakurai said:
…it’s not my intent to arbitrarily increase the number of third-party representatives. To live up to the series’ standards, I can’t do anything too extreme.
Sakurai said:
I’m not going to have just any character participate from other companies, but [Mega Man]’s definitely in a class of his own.
Sakurai said:
Since I am creating the newSmash Bros. in cooperation with Bandai-Namco Games, it makes sense to include one of their characters, and Pac-Man is perhaps Namco’s most iconic character, so Pac-Man should join the fray.
Emphasis mine.

Sakurai's quotes here give us some guidelines for third party character choices:
  1. It can't be just anyone; a character must meet a certain "class."
  2. Both companies have to want to include the character.
  3. Sakurai needs to have creative control over the character.
  4. The character must carry game history with them.
  5. The character must live up to the standards of Smash, not being too far out there.
  6. Characters being iconic is a major plus.
  • Steve fits point one, as he's not "just anyone." He's the protagonist of the second best selling game of all time.
  • Steve may or may not fit points two and three. We can't really know that.
  • Steve probably fits criteria four, as his game has made history by outselling any game Nintendo has ever made. He's also existed four seven years, and his game is still selling well. He may not have enough history behind him, however.
  • Steve would be a bit extreme, but not moreso than Cloud, really, so he seems to pass point five.
  • Steve meets criteria six, as he's unarguably an iconic character.
Those are the factors affecting Steve's chances. And, yes, being an icon is one of the factors.
 
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You did not. I made several good points about all the factors working in favor of the other third party Smash characters in that last comment of mine that Steve does not possess, that you completely ignored. If you're not going to address these points then you've lost the argument. Simple as that.
To answer what Steve has to set himself apart, he has a crafting mechanic, where he can mine things from the stage to upgrade himself during combat. It's something both totally unique and totally Minecraft.

What other non-opinion based things did you want me to answer?
 

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To answer what Steve has to set himself apart, he has a crafting mechanic, where he can mine things from the stage to upgrade himself during combat. It's something both totally unique and totally Minecraft.

What other non-opinion based things did you want me to answer?
And building with blocks. That's a huge part of the game even if there's no mining or crafting.
 

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Emphasis mine.

Sakurai's quotes here give us some guidelines for third party character choices:
  1. It can't be just anyone; a character must meet a certain "class."
  2. Both companies have to want to include the character.
  3. Sakurai needs to have creative control over the character.
  4. The character must carry game history with them.
  5. The character must live up to the standards of Smash, not being too far out there.
  6. Characters being iconic is a major plus.

  • Steve fits point one, as he's not "just anyone." He's the protagonist of the second best selling game of all time.
  • Steve may or may not fit points two and three. We can't really know that.
  • Steve probably fits criteria four, as his game has made history by outselling any game Nintendo has ever made. He's also existed four seven years, and his game is still selling well. He may not have enough history behind him, however.
  • Steve would be a bit extreme, but not moreso than Cloud, really, so he seems to pass point five.
  • Steve meets criteria six, as he's unarguably an iconic character.
Those are the factors affecting Steve's chances. And, yes, being an icon is one of the factors.
You're really showing a massive amount of bias here. Not only are those 6 points not actually clearly defined by Sakurai, but you also answered nearly all of them in the positive, putting the negative ones in the "maybe" column. I'm not trying to be rude but this post seems like blind fanboyism at its peak.

But fine, just for the sake of the argument, let's go along with your list.

1. "It can't be just anyone; a character must meet a certain 'class'."

This is way too vague to define and it could mean literally anything. You construed this as a positive simply because Steve's game sold well. Unfortunately that's merely pointing at POPULARITY and nothing else. When Sakurai talks about "class" he could be talking about a number of different things, and I very much doubt he is ONLY talking about popularity. Steve, despite being popular, is very much a "just anyone" character, in the most literal sense - he's a template character that everyone can reskin into any character they like.

2. "Both companies have to want to include the character."

So far we've seen no evidence that this is the case from either company. Phil Spencer from Xbox seems to want Banjo, and Nintendo has issued no comment on putting in a Microsoft-owned character.

3. "Sakurai needs to have creative control over the character."

This.... kind of goes without saying, as he's the director and has a vision for each and every character that gets into the game. It's the same with any other game in development, whoever's directing it has to have creative control over everything that goes into it. Doesn't really say anything.

But even so, there isn't really much to "have creative control over" with Steve. He's not a very well defined character, he has no personality that we know of, and you can't really make the argument that anything done with him would be "out of character" for him since he doesn't really have an established character. There isn't much for Sakurai to alter to his personal tastes - animation-wise, Steve just swings single limbs at a time without any expressiveness shown in his animations. Model-wise he'd also be difficult to inject any personality into, because of the very amateurish art style of Minecraft. Sakurai could opt to just design a completely new character model for him that is able to animate well and give emotion and animation, but then it could be argued that he's not really paying homage to the source material.

4. "The character must carry game history with them."

Minecraft is only 9 years old, hardly a historic game. It's about as old as its average player. Selling well does not make it "historic". Stop pointing to sales as an argument for LITERALLY EVERYTHING. It's ridiculous. It's like saying "this game sold well so therefore it's the cure for diabetes!" These are not even remotely related things.

5. "The character must live up to the standards of Smash, not being too far out there."

This is the point where your argument completely crumbles beyond repair. There's quite a lot to pick apart with the "standards of Smash" statement, which brings me back to my earlier points.

Smash has standards. So it doesn't put in just anybody for one-trick pony reasons, like "popularity". Popularity is not taken ON ITS OWN, it's not sufficient ON ITS OWN to get a character into Smash. It has to be taken into account along with a number of OTHER factors, such as uniqueness, fan demand, the ability to create interesting gameplay with them, their historic significance to gaming and Nintendo in particular, how confident the team is in replicating their art style, what type of fanservice would go along with it, the list goes on and on. These factors have to be taken with each other AS A WHOLE. If he has only one thing going for him out of a hundred different things, then it's an extremely weak argument for him being put into the game.

When Sakurai says "standards of Smash" he means the ability to deliver a character that is of HIGH QUALITY in every regard - in visual and sound design, in having fun gameplay, in respect to source material. These are the standards he's talking about. So when you have a game like Minecraft that has extremely LOW standards in one or more of these aspects, how do you expect to deliver something high quality that adheres to your high standards? You can't replicate the source material without replicating their very low standards, such as Steve's very simplistic and poorly-designed art style. So if a character doesn't even meet the standards set by Smash as a result of their OWN design, it isn't the fault of the Smash team that they can't create something high quality with that source material. I don't think Sakurai or his team would want to work on Steve or Minecraft characters for this very reason. I'm confident they would agree with me that he is very ugly, amateurish-looking and boring, and they would see fit to either totally redesign him for Smash, or (more likely) just not include him at all because of all the work they'd have to put in to redesigning him "in a way that pays homage to the source material".

6. "Characters being iconic is a major plus."

Okay, fine, so he's famous. You get one out of six. Who cares? That point in of itself doesn't make him a good candidate.
 
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Yes. Thank you.

Please don't mistake me as supporting Goomba for Smash, I'm merely trying to illustrate a point.
I wasn't supporting you either. There's literally no better Minecraft candidate than "I have a generic placeholder name for a name" Steve. Goombas are down there with Creepers as a playable choice.

Look, I get that Minecraft is not a deliberately-crafted video game, ironically enough. It's a big sandbox that coasts entirely on the community input, with little concern for its appearance or narrative. It's not like Mario, Final Fantasy, or most other games where the content is a developer-curated experience, and every modicum of fame it got was hard-earned and not dependent on children's love of big sandbox toys.

But if the argument is that he doesn't have enough history behind him, then all we'd have to do is wait a couple more years before history decides to write about this decade of video gaming - or, I don't know, look at how so many people suddenly decided they wanted to make sandbox games with crafting mechanics. If the argument is character identity, then you'd have to argue despite Villager's inclusion (would you say Animal Crossing's sole solid argument is its appealing aesthetic, given its lack of narrative or defined protagonist character?), or how they can't just use Steve as the conduit through which they represent Minecraft's mechanics instead. If the argument is demand, then there's only one man we should be paying attention to in that regard, a man who hasn't voiced his thoughts on the idea yet but is already on record for saying that he enjoyed Minecraft.

If you, like plenty of other people, just dislike Minecraft for not being like older games that worked harder to get where they are, then that's understandable. And there's plenty already that bars Minecraft's chances, like being under the Microsoft banner and being a relatively corporate-motivated choice, meant to bait out all the kids to pick up a Switch and fight as Steve. But not worthy enough for Smash's attention? Odd choice, when it's done so much and affected so many, even without developer-curated experiences, concrete narratives, or defined characters. I don't think Breath of the Wild ignored what it had to teach, at any rate.
 

PsychoJosh

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I wasn't supporting you either. There's literally no better Minecraft candidate than "I have a generic placeholder name for a name" Steve. Goombas are down there with Creepers as a playable choice.
Yeah, there's literally no better Minecraft candidate than Steve. That's exactly my point. If Steve is the best they can do, then they should just ignore Minecraft entirely in regards to Smash.

As for the rest of your points, please read my post above yours. I believe it addresses them.
 
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Opossum

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Yeah, there's literally no better Minecraft candidate than Steve. That's exactly my point. If Steve is the best they can do, then they should just ignore Minecraft entirely in regards to Smash.
.
I'm getting dizzy from that spin.
 

Opossum

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Then stop bumping your head against the wall and also learn what "spin" means.
You literally took an inocuous statement (that Steve is the best candidate for a Minecraft character) and warped it beyond its original meaning to suit your narrative. If that's not a spin, I'm not sure what is.
 

PsychoJosh

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You literally took an inocuous statement (that Steve is the best candidate for a Minecraft character) and warped it beyond its original meaning to suit your narrative. If that's not a spin, I'm not sure what is.
ProfPeanut: "Steve is the best candidate for a Minecraft candidate."

Me: "I agree. And therein lies the problem."

Opossum: "Wow nice job spinning his argument."

This is why I break out into laughter every time you post. You're absolutely right, you DON'T KNOW what a spin is.
 
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Opossum

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ProfPeanut: "Steve is the best candidate for a Minecraft candidate."

Me: "I agree. That's why Minecraft is bad."

Opossum: "Wow nice job spinning his argument."

This is why I break out into laughter every time you post. You're absolutely right, you DON'T KNOW what a spin is.
It's exactly what a spin is.

"Neutral statement."

"Thank you! This neutral statement proves my point that Steve is awful!"


Just stop at this point. It's not a good look and I'd rather this back-and-forth not further clog the thread.
 

Troykv

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You're really showing a massive amount of bias here. Not only are those 6 points not actually clearly defined by Sakurai, but you also answered nearly all of them in the positive, putting the negative ones in the "maybe" column. I'm not trying to be rude but this post seems like blind fanboyism at its peak.

But fine, just for the sake of the argument, let's go along with your list.

1. "It can't be just anyone; a character must meet a certain 'class'."

This is way too vague to define and it could mean literally anything. You construed this as a positive simply because Steve's game sold well. Unfortunately that's merely pointing at POPULARITY and nothing else. When Sakurai talks about "class" he could be talking about a number of different things, and I very much doubt he is ONLY talking about popularity. Steve, despite being popular, is very much a "just anyone" character, in the most literal sense - he's a template character that everyone can reskin into any character they like.

2. "Both companies have to want to include the character."

So far we've seen no evidence that this is the case from either company. Phil Spencer from Xbox seems to want Banjo, and Nintendo has issued no comment on putting in a Microsoft-owned character.

3. "Sakurai needs to have creative control over the character."

This.... kind of goes without saying, as he's the director and has a vision for each and every character that gets into the game. It's the same with any other game in development, whoever's directing it has to have creative control over everything that goes into it. Doesn't really say anything.

But even so, there isn't really much to "have creative control over" with Steve. He's not a very well defined character, he has no personality that we know of, and you can't really make the argument that anything done with him would be "out of character" for him since he doesn't really have an established character. There isn't much for Sakurai to alter to his personal tastes - animation-wise, Steve just swings single limbs at a time without any expressiveness shown in his animations. Model-wise he'd also be difficult to inject any personality into, because of the very amateurish art style of Minecraft. Sakurai could opt to just design a completely new character model for him that is able to animate well and give emotion and animation, but then it could be argued that he's not really paying homage to the source material.

4. "The character must carry game history with them."

Minecraft is only 9 years old, hardly a historic game. It's about as old as its average player. Selling well does not make it "historic". Stop pointing to sales as an argument for LITERALLY EVERYTHING. It's ridiculous. It's like saying "this game sold well so therefore it's the cure for diabetes!" These are not even remotely related things.

5. "The character must live up to the standards of Smash, not being too far out there."

This is the point where your argument completely crumbles beyond repair. There's quite a lot to pick apart with the "standards of Smash" statement, which brings me back to my earlier points.

Smash has standards. So it doesn't put in just anybody for one-trick pony reasons, like "popularity". Popularity is not taken ON ITS OWN, it's not sufficient ON ITS OWN to get a character into Smash. It has to be taken into account along with a number of OTHER factors, such as uniqueness, fan demand, the ability to create interesting gameplay with them, their historic significance to gaming and Nintendo in particular, how confident the team is in replicating their art style, what type of fanservice would go along with it, the list goes on and on. These factors have to be taken with each other AS A WHOLE. If he has only one thing going for him out of a hundred different things, then it's an extremely weak argument for him being put into the game.

When Sakurai says "standards of Smash" he means the ability to deliver a character that is of HIGH QUALITY in every regard - in visual and sound design, in having fun gameplay, in respect to source material. These are the standards he's talking about. So when you have a game like Minecraft that has extremely LOW standards in one or more of these aspects, how do you expect to deliver something high quality that adheres to your high standards? You can't replicate the source material without replicating their very low standards, such as Steve's very simplistic and poorly-designed art style. So if a character doesn't even meet the standards set by Smash as a result of their OWN design, it isn't the fault of the Smash team that they can't create something high quality with that source material. I don't think Sakurai or his team would want to work on Steve or Minecraft characters for this very reason. I'm confident they would agree with me that he is very ugly, amateurish-looking and boring, and they would see fit to either totally redesign him for Smash, or (more likely) just not include him at all because of all the work they'd have to put in to redesigning him "in a way that pays homage to the source material".

6. "Characters being iconic is a major plus."

Okay, fine, so he's famous. You get one out of six. Who cares? That point in of itself doesn't make him a good candidate.
I'm curious... I want to know which characters you think would fit five or the six point (because the agreement thing is completely unknown) that isn't already in Smash
 

Munomario777

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Steve Chance: 40%. Very iconic and etc, and Minecraft has a history with Nintendo. I could see it happening.

Steve Want: 0%. Nothing against the game, I have good memories with it and hop on every once in a while to kick back and relax. Steve himself would just be super unwieldy and stiff in Smash due to his body shape. He lies in the uncanny valley as far as that stuff is concerned. If normal fighters are the "realistic" end of that spectrum and G&W is the "unrealistic" end, Steve is the unappealing middle.

Pyra Prediction: 9.4%.

Noms: Snip + Clip x5.



PS. what the heck did I just walk into lmao
 
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Yeah, there's literally no better Minecraft candidate than Steve. That's exactly my point. If Steve is the best they can do, then they should just ignore Minecraft entirely in regards to Smash.

As for the rest of your points, please read my post above yours. I believe it addresses them.
1. Villager. Or Mr. Game and Watch. It's not the characters themselves that are really given character, but the games that they come from, and Minecraft certainly has its own identity.

2. Both companies seem neutral in regards to Minecraft itself, and I can't imagine this being counted as a negative at the moment, sans the idea of promoting Microsoft via Nintendo.

3. You can say that for any third-party candidate. If Sakurai enjoyed Minecraft enough to buy it twice, then I think he'd have made the effort to understand the game itself. I also can't imagine Microsoft or Mojang wanting to add much on the matter.

4. If we're just going to wait until Minecraft is considered historic, then fine. Even if I can't say Minecraft is historic now, that ultimately just pushes this argument aside until later, assuming Smash keeps going down the list of "third-parties that people talk about."

5. This I can kind of get, but it also feels like an assumption, because we've never seen a character outright rejected for being too "ugly" for Smash. Minecraft's style isn't what even I'd call "charming", but it's so defining (and integral to the gameplay) that trying to replace it would just not go well with the crowd it's supposed to draw in. Still, the question is whether it's a dealbreaker or not, and I'm sure plenty of people think it is, but that would again leave it up to Sakurai, a man who chose to represent every participating game's unique aesthetic into Smash. I just don't think it's a super solid point when it's only an aesthetic one, as if Minecraft would have a lot more support if only it picked a nicer appearance for itself.

edit: Redundant sentence structure in the last paragraph.
 
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TCT~Phantom

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Ok so the website is back on. Unfortunately my computer is being bad so I will have to calc tomorrow.

Steve

55% Chance

To be honest, the franchise is just that big. Minecraft cons. Minecraft merch. It is a phenomenon. Steve himself is a blank slate, but he still is the mascot of the game. Having a Minecraft character and stage would certainly sell copies. It honestly is kind of easy for me to envision what they could do. Make some smash run enemies and a creeper assist trophy. Make a huge stage with tons of hidden spots. Have Steve. It makes sense.

20 % Want

...but I am not a Minecraft fan. I respect it and it certainly have a huge appeal, but it is not my thing. It’s one of those games which I can never get into. I would be ok with it, if only because my squad has a Minecraft server and they are fans.

Nominating Eevee x 5

Day over, this new look will take some time, New day
 

False Sense

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I'm not one to get involved in stuff like this, but I felt like there might be some benefit in examining some... really bad posts flying around. Maybe someone could learn something from this, I dunno.

So, let's break this down.

The only argument I've heard about why Steve should be in Smash is because "Minecraft is popular".
You may have only heard that argument, but that's not the only one. Within this thread alone other arguments have been presented. This is using a strawman to make a case.

If sheer popularity were the only thing that determines whether or not a character gets in we'd have seen characters from Grand Theft Auto, Call of Duty and Madden in Smash a long time ago. These franchises are not represented because they are just as out-of-place in a game like Smash as Minecraft would be.
This is correct in that raw popularity isn't everything. However, the claim that those games are "out-of-place" is meaningless on its own, as is the lumping of Minecraft with games like Call of Duty and Madden. Claiming that this "out-of-place" factor is why these games aren't represented is likewise unsubstantiated.

Minecraft was created by a programmer who didn't really seem to give any forethought or care into how the game would look or be received, and as a result, it has a very awful art style that makes a terrible attempt at replicating early 3D PC games. The only problem is, early 3D PC games did not look like Minecraft. They did not have deliberately cube-shaped objects, characters and enemies, and attempted to deliver graphics with as much realism and high quality as they possibly could, with their only limitation being the power of the hardware they were using at the time. Minecraft throws this history out the window for the sake of very simplistic and blocky characters that don't look anything like the classic games they are attempting to emulate.

I think this reason alone is sufficient to keep Minecraft out of Smash for a very long time - you see, the artists working on Smash take the utmost care in making sure characters look as beautiful and close to their original game art as possible, while also giving them an art style that lets all the characters blend in with each other. Because of Minecraft's extremely amateurish and terrible art style attempting to recreate PC games of the 90s, the Smash artists would have a really tough time trying to make him look good enough in Smash and not stick out like a sore thumb - essentially they would have to completely design an original model for him, which would most likely look nothing like the original character model from the game due to how amateurish it is.
This entire tirade is complete nonsense. It presents the bold claim that Minecraft would be ignored for Smash because (paraphrasing here) it's ugly and bad. This is especially irrelevant because:
1.) Regardless of your thoughts on the game, people still like it. Quite a bit, I'd say.
2.) Regardless of your thoughts on the game, Sakurai still likes it.
3.) We have no indication that a game's art style is actually relevant to deciding who gets into Smash. This is baseless conjecture.
4.) If anything, Smash's roster contradicts the notion that characters have to look "good" and "not stick out" when we have characters like Mr. Game & Watch, Snake, and Bayonetta who (while this may be subjective) do seem to stick out quite a bit compared to the rest of the cast.
5.) The notion that they'd have to design an original model for him that'd look nothing like the original character is also baseless speculation.

I don't mean this in a condescending way, but I honestly, truly believe that the only people supporting Steve getting in Smash are ten year olds, or sub-18 minors who grew up with Minecraft and don't have any consideration for the standards of Smash. It's just "I played Minecraft a lot so I think he should be in Smash".
More strawman. Also blatantly false.

Goomba meets all the same criteria as Steve supposedly does. He's iconic and famous. He "could" have a fun moveset (just like literally any character you could think of since fun is subjective). There's a good reason why Goomba isn't playable in Smash, and that's because Smash has standards. Smash isn't MUGEN. We don't need a million crappy filler non-characters.
So, this is a weird one. The comparison is drawn between Steve, the protagonist and face of one of the most popular video game series ever, and a Goomba, a generic enemy in one of the most popular video game series ever. The post draws a lot of comparisons between the two in order to address the "iconic" argument and asks why Goomba is considered unviable while Steve is, before seemingly dismissing them both as "filler non-characters."

The problem here is that the comparison fails once you get to the reason why Goomba isn't considered a viable candidate.

"Because there's way better Mario candidates?"

Goomba is an extremely minor entity within a much larger series with far more prominent and beloved characters that would likely take priority. Steve is the protagonist of his own series. The reason Goomba won't get into Smash is not the same reason Steve wouldn't get into Smash.

The comparison I think the post was going for is that both Goomba and Steve are trashy, unimportant characters in the grand scheme of gaming as a whole, rather than within their individual series, which...

No, sorry, this is just a failed comparison. There's a reason no one understood this.

I've wasted enough time on this and you still seem very slow to catch onto the point, so I'll just tell you. A third party character being "iconic" is almost COMPLETELY irrelevant to whether or not they get in Smash. A character getting into Smash is the combination of MANY factors acting in their favor, not simply one. And that's all that Steve is, a one-trick pony. His "one trick" is his game's popularity. He's not unique, he's not interesting, he's not thoughtfully designed, he's extremely dated, he's amateurishly modeled visual-wise, and he's not in high demand as a Smash character. All the third party characters who got into Smash so far have had ALL these qualities in their favor. Steve does not. As a Smash candidate, he barely has anything going for him outside of his popularity and the sheer novelty of his visual appearance.
Again, this is more strawman based on the idea that people only want Steve for popularity and that he has nothing else to offer. It also argues that Steve is "not unique," which is incredibly subjective and something that I, personally, would disagree with given that we have yet to have a character in Smash from a true sandbox game like Minecraft.

You've failed to address any of my points, which isn't surprising as I knew you had no argument from the moment you first quoted me.
Danth's Law.

I'll just end this by saying Banjo is in significantly higher demand than Steve as a Smash fighter. This is an objective fact and there's a good reason for it. Deal with it.
Citation please.

You're really showing a massive amount of bias here. Not only are those 6 points not actually clearly defined by Sakurai, but you also answered nearly all of them in the positive, putting the negative ones in the "maybe" column. I'm not trying to be rude but this post seems like blind fanboyism at its peak.
Those points were almost word-for-word lifted from Sakurai's actual statements. These are the closest things to his actual guidelines we have.

Also, Pacack put the "negative" points as neutral because they are, in fact, neutral. An unknown factor cannot be accurately read as a positive or a negative.

Steve, despite being popular, is very much a "just anyone" character, in the most literal sense - he's a template character that everyone can reskin into any character they like.
We already have "just anyone" characters in the literal sense. See my literal avatar of a literal avatar.

Why do people still act like this is a good point?

2. "Both companies have to want to include the character."

So far we've seen no evidence that this is the case from either company. Phil Spencer from Xbox seems to want Banjo, and Nintendo has issued no comment on putting in a Microsoft-owned character.
This is a restatement of what Pacack said for this point. This is saying stuff for the sake of saying stuff.

But even so, there isn't really much to "have creative control over" with Steve. He's not a very well defined character, he has no personality that we know of, and you can't really make the argument that anything done with him would be "out of character" for him since he doesn't really have an established character. There isn't much for Sakurai to alter to his personal tastes - animation-wise, Steve just swings single limbs at a time without any expressiveness shown in his animations. Model-wise he'd also be difficult to inject any personality into, because of the very amateurish art style of Minecraft. Sakurai could opt to just design a completely new character model for him that is able to animate well and give emotion and animation, but then it could be argued that he's not really paying homage to the source material.
How is this even a remotely viable argument when characters like Mr. Game & Watch, ROB, Villager, and Wii Fit Trainer exist?

Smash has standards. So it doesn't put in just anybody for one-trick pony reasons, like "popularity". Popularity is not taken ON ITS OWN, it's not sufficient ON ITS OWN to get a character into Smash. It has to be taken into account along with a number of OTHER factors, such as uniqueness, fan demand, the ability to create interesting gameplay with them, their historic significance to gaming and Nintendo in particular, how confident the team is in replicating their art style, what type of fanservice would go along with it, the list goes on and on. These factors have to be taken with each other AS A WHOLE. If he has only one thing going for him out of a hundred different things, then it's an extremely weak argument for him being put into the game.
Hello strawman.

When Sakurai says "standards of Smash" he means the ability to deliver a character that is of HIGH QUALITY in every regard - in visual and sound design, in having fun gameplay, in respect to source material. These are the standards he's talking about. So when you have a game like Minecraft that has extremely LOW standards in one or more of these aspects, how do you expect to deliver something high quality that adheres to your high standards? You can't replicate the source material without replicating their very low standards, such as Steve's very simplistic and poorly-designed art style. So if a character doesn't even meet the standards set by Smash as a result of their OWN design, it isn't the fault of the Smash team that they can't create something high quality with that source material. I don't think Sakurai or his team would want to work on Steve or Minecraft characters for this very reason. I'm confident they would agree with me that he is very ugly, amateurish-looking and boring, and they would see fit to either totally redesign him for Smash, or (more likely) just not include him at all because of all the work they'd have to put in to redesigning him "in a way that pays homage to the source material".
This is, again, complete nonsense based on some preconceived notion of "standards" that is not in any way based on any semblance of Sakurai's standards.

6. "Characters being iconic is a major plus."

Okay, fine, so he's famous. You get one out of six. Who cares?
Apparently, Sakurai does.




While I'm here...

Steve

Chance: 5%

Want: 90%

He's a possibility. And I think he'd be fun.

Welp, g'night everyone.
 
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