Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Funbot28]

Ok so here is the preliminary list for B-Air:

Spoiler: Back-Air

Like @Mr. Johan stated, all the characters Back-Airs are all quite viable in there own right (besides Mac's obviously...), so the difference between the rankings are not as sever compared to the previous lists.

Anyways, leave your thoughts as always.

 

[ShortcutButton]

The good ones (probably at least top 15):


The bad one:


Everything else... could go literally anywhere. This will be the most controversial list you'll have since 57 bairs are super useful and good. Keep in mind it does hinge upon what the character can do with a bair: Mario and Doc have the same move, but Mario can get off more since hes faster.

 

[Lorde]

Why is Samus' bair so low? It comes out on frame 9, lingers for 6 frames, does 14%, has nice range, and short hop autocancels.

It's very similar to ZSS'. I mean, the sweetspot literally has the same angle, kbg, and bkb as ZSS' bair.

However, it has a worse autocancel window, more landing lag (18 v 11 frames), and comes out a frame slower.

Even though both bairs have the same angle/kbg/bkb, Samus' would kill earlier since it does more damage. It also has a hitbox on Samus' leg, which ZSS' doesn't have.

This is one of the better bairs imo so idk why it's in D tier.

Also, Lucario's bair is good and shouldn't be that low either.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Captain Falcon's Bair is S-Rank easily. Sets up for Dash grabs and Dash attacks nicely in the neutral, good KO Power, and a really good edgeguarding tool. Easily one of the best bairs in the game and one of his best tools in general.

Roy's Bair is pretty good too. Its low endlag makes it a really good edgeguarding tool and it has pretty good KO power as well. It can also combo into Fair or Uair due to turning Roy around. Think its a solid B or C.

Falco's Bair is also great. It has an excellent auto cancel window, ridiculous Knockback and has setups / frame traps into it. I think its a solid A.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Brawler's Bair is decent. It is mainly used for spacing and getting jab locks by sliding people off from the plathforms. Mid lvl Bair overall.

I'm actually convinced this is a contender for one of the worst Bairs in the game, which we know is not a hotly contested claim. Put some targets at the ledge and it will fail to kill them at 150%. It's inability to kill is the first thing I can think of when brainstorming 1111 brawler's core issues - knockback. And the jab lock/prattack applications are not as good as his late Nair performing the same thing. It also lacks the active frames and has much slower startup. The move's only claim to fame is reaching farther than most of his moveset.

For other bad Bairs, Link comes to mind. The first kick lacks an auto link angle, so like Falcon's Nair, you don't aim for the first kick unless you're rising into a target, making for a slow (frame 18), unwieldy attack. The first hit does pop the target upward from the ground with fixed knocback, but Link can't followup with such a slow moveset, especially when his back is turned to them. Plus it lacks the killing power of even Nair. The FAF is fantastic however, and I'm the certain the move could combo into itself if Link had a respectable air speed. 10 landing lag might be the lowest among all Bairs, but I'd rather Nair or Zair any day. I also think Pikachu's is pretty bad. 8% total damage isn't enough to compensate for how unsafe it is and how bad the hitbox is for linking into itself. It doesn't have any notable knockback either on the final hit.

I don't think Dedede deserves D tier. It's everything that his Fair fails to be. It kills at reasonable percent, it's a good landing option, the hitbox is massive and disjointed, it autocancels from short hop, and dedede's Down throw combos prefer the effort of turning around to use this over Fair for more damage and knockback to set up for more pressure. One of his better moves for sure. And I completely agree that ZSS and Samus are both in the wrong tier, and wherever they end up next, it should be on the same tier. Very comparable, with Samus trading landing lag for a larger hitbox with more active frames. The only D tiers I 100% agree with are Link and Olimar, then add Pikachu and Brawler.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

As the data I grabbed shows: Ike's Bair is comparable to Robin's Levin Bair while edging it out in speed. Robin's is better yes but in many categories they are very close to each other.

Ike's Bair is either end of A or top of B. While Sonic's is probably more important to him than Ike's is to him, just in raw data. (Example: Sonic has the same damage at best and sometimes has less damage, hits 6 frames later, their BKB and KBG are switching back and forth between who's is better or if they're tied depending on the situation. Sonic has less lag after his while Ike's is all disjoint... so that adds up again to being very comparable between the two. Ryu's is slightly slower and is worse at KOing + not all disjoint but is a lot less laggy and can both combo and kill.)

 

[JosePollo]

"You get bair! And YOU get a bair! EVERYONE GETS A BAIR!"

But no, really. I can't think of many bairs where I can say they're complete garbo (Little Mac doesn't count, since all his aerials are trash). Lucas is no exception, with his back air being the only bair in the game that can meteor. And the meteor is STRONG. 12% damage on 30 BKB/90 KBG is enough to outright kill characters at less than 50% or put them low enough to gimp them if they survive. It's also disjointed at the meteor, and is basically Lucas's only sword swing-like attack. The start-up is rather slow for a back air, but it's on-par for other meteors in the game, and 6 active frames is nothing to scoff at for a meteor that covers as much area as Lucas's back air does. His back air is also guaranteed off of a ledge trump (made even easier due to Lucas being able to tether trump) and also works to deter off-stage harassment because opponents risk potentially having an edgeguard situation reversed on them. The early auto-cancel frames also help Lucas SHAD without air dodge landing lag. Really the only downsides to Lucas's back air is the slow late auto-cancel (<39, which is bad for a back air) and the fact that you have to space the meteor hitbox in order to avoid sourspotting the attack. I'd say it could do with a shift from C → B.

Spoiler: BAIR

 

[Masonomace]

Back airs. . .oh no lmao.

This sounds tough to explain for Shulk, but considering that a lot of Back airs are good, there's not going to be a whole lot of bad Back airs in the grand scheme I feel. So onto Shulk. .
Back air induces additional salt to some users just because of the hitbox located in front of the move on startup. Shulk's Back air can be illustrated like this:

Frame 18-19 hits from the front. Frame 19-22 hits from behind. Although, frame 18-19 hits underneath & in front of Shulk as well. Frame 20-22 is a linear-straight away hitbox directly behind Shulk. Frame 21-22 is the only hitbox window possessing a sourspot that is very long-ranged without being a projectile. Needless to say, Shulk's Back air covers in front of him, in front & below him, directly below him, below but behind him, & then directly behind him. It's in a very quick instance though, so it's not like the move is very active in a specific area of the move at a time. But the move is active from frame 18-22, so it's active for a good 5 frames, capable of beating a dodge option when timed well. And the range behind Shulk's Back air is outstanding. In fact, this move when spaced well in Neutral is virtually impossible if not very difficult to punish regularly. Respect is usually given to this move as the opponent wouldn't approach very often against it. Deals 12.5% from frame 18-22 & deals the sourspot 8.5% on frame 21-22. So the move crossing up shields, or spaced well hitting on-shield is safe in common arts like Jump Speed & Buster. However, the move despite being long-ranged & being flexible in it's hitbox course, is quite narrow & needs precision for it to hit. This holds back the move's rating within a vacuum spectrum. On top of that, the move also has long endlag & a very terrible autocancel. Yet the move can be staled frequently & can still kill which I find funny / silly.

Overall, I rate the move to be A-rank. The dumb TL;DR advice that some Shulk players end up doing for MUs is Bair in Neutral, & as funny stupid as that sounds. . .it can actually work. The move itself means you'll have to take landing lag, but when you slide across the floor with Jump art, have initial dash speed mobility & drifting Bair from ground to air in Speed art, or the raw damage in Buster making it effectively safe on shield in Buster art, the move is darn good & is sometimes called the Gift from the Bionis for a reason. All that holds it back, is poor endlag, a terrible autocancel, & it having a startup of frame 18.

 

[Ffamran]

Why is Samus' bair so low? It comes out on frame 9, lingers for 6 frames, does 14%, has nice range, and short hop autocancels.

It's very similar to ZSS'. I mean, the sweetspot literally has the same angle, kbg, and bkb as ZSS' bair.

However, it has a worse autocancel window, more landing lag (18 v 11 frames), and comes out a frame slower.

Even though both bairs have the same angle/kbg/bkb, Samus' would kill earlier since it does more damage. It also has a hitbox on Samus' leg, which ZSS' doesn't have.

This is one of the better bairs imo so idk why it's in D tier.

Also, Lucario's bair is good and shouldn't be that low either.

Adding onto Samus's Bair, it's as strong as Falco's, but with much more range. Cost? Much slower which isn't a problem since it's not slow; it's pretty average at frame 9. It's also probably going to be safer at really low percents than Falco's since it has base knockback while Falco's doesn't. Anyway, just want to say that Samus's Bair is good. It kind of is a stronger, but slightly slower Bair, mostly in landing lag. It should at least be in B-tier, but I'd wager it could be in A-tier.

ZSS's Bair being in S-tier kind of bothers me... Keep one thing in mind: I don't know enough about ZSS, so if I'm wrong, please correct me or say something. As a move, it's not really that special compared to say, DK or Palutena's. The setups, however, do make it strong, but I don't think it's enough to justify it being in S-tier while Bayonetta's isn't and when Samus's is, in the preliminary list, all the way down in D-tier. Bayonetta, Samus, and ZSS have similar Bairs and are all capable of setting up them. Bayonetta's is probably the closer one to ZSS sharing more similar data than Samus who unlike Bayonetta and ZSS, has a late hit, so higher active frames, higher landing lag, and worse auto-cancel. In a way, it would actually be Bayonetta who has the slower, but stronger Bair to ZSS. I'd say either ZSS needs to drop down to A-tier with Bayonetta or Bayonetta needs to move up with ZSS to S-tier and I lean towards the former: ZSS dropping down.

For other bad Bairs, Link comes to mind. The first kick lacks an auto link angle, so like Falcon's Nair, you don't aim for the first kick unless you're rising into a target, making for a slow (frame 18), unwieldy attack. The first hit does pop the target upward from the ground with fixed knocback, but Link can't followup with such a slow moveset, especially when his back is turned to them. Plus it lacks the killing power of even Nair. The FAF is fantastic however, and I'm the certain the move could combo into itself if Link had a respectable air speed. 10 landing lag might be the lowest among all Bairs, but I'd rather Nair or Zair any day. I also think Pikachu's is pretty bad. 8% total damage isn't enough to compensate for how unsafe it is and how bad the hitbox is for linking into itself. It doesn't have any notable knockback either on the final hit.

I think the strength of Link's Bair comes from its auto-cancel. With its speed and auto-cancel window, it's Link's bait close-range bait and pressure aerial he can use from a hop. Can't really do that with Nair since he'd have to jump. At the same time, Link's the only character with a fast fall that increases more than 60%; Link's goes up by 90%. So, he can jump, Nair, and fast fall. Granted, should Link really be pressuring up close? Not really. He's more of mid to long-range pressure... I think a Link expert should be talking instead of me.

Won't say anything about Pikachu's Bair other than it's utility comes from its active frame and auto-link angles. Pikachu's mostly going to abuse those for edgeguarding. Doesn't matter if it fully connects if Pikachu can drag you down, put you into hit stun, gimp you, and then recover to the ledge. Low startup and landing hit also helps it. The massive problem which is off-topic is that when you consider Pikachu's other aerials, Pikachu doesn't exactly have horizontal range; Nair, Fair, and Bair are central hitting. Add in Pikachu's short stature and low air speed which is slightly mitigated by high air acceleration and it's pretty bad for Pikachu. Granted, Pikachu's ground speed is fast, so Pikachu can at least follow you around. Still, having 3 center hitting aerials and on a short character isn't good. The moves themselves are perhaps fine, but they're potentially overlapping, especially in how they hit.

Spoiler: My crappy opinions

I could actually see Meta Knight's Bair go up to A-tier because of the setups he can pull off, and the fact that it's pretty powerful. What was it that Lavani said way back then? Triple D's Bair power, but 10 frames faster.... Something to that line. Fox's Bair I could also see in A-tier. It's got really stupid auto-cancel allowing Fox to bait and pressure. It's also got a shallower angle, 30 degrees, unlike most Bairs that send at a higher, usually 361 angle; moves with 361 degree angles send ground opponents usually straight at 0 degrees at low percents and up to 40 degrees at higher percents and at a 45 degree angle on airborne opponents. This allows it to potentially gimp at times. For reference, Falco and Fox's Down Smash have shallow angles where they might not KO you, but end up gimping you since you were sent too low and too far. The only problems are that it's not really strong and Fox doesn't really have reliable setups like Bayonetta and ZSS do with their Bairs.

Roy's Bair should at least be in C-tier or maybe B-tier depending on what it can actually do that I don't know about. Can't say much about it other than I keep seeing Shaya say Roy's Bair is good. Yes, it doesn't have good "range" because tippers with Roy results in weak hits, but that's supposedly a strength of Roy's Bair from what Shaya says. There's also the fact that Lucina, Marth, and Roy's aerials turn them around. That can help for mixups. I remember Neo using Bair to turn himself around alongside B-reversed Shield Breaker. Similarly, Roy can use either Bair or B-reversed Flare Blade to turnaround for mixups.

One character's Bair I was afraid of seeing placed was Falco's Bair, but I'm relieved to see it wasn't placed high in S- or A-tier. I don't think it should be any higher than B-tier. Yes, it's the fastest Bair tied with Mega Man and Sheik's, yes it's powerful with with its 13% and 130 growth clean hit, yes, it has good auto-cancel windows similar to Fox's, and yes, as an aerial, it's among the highest in power / speed ratio under Zelda's Fair and Bair -- as a move, it would be lower since you'd have moves like Limit Break Cross Slash, Rest, and Shoryuken. Also, the late hit can be used for resets along with being a "good, but annoying since you didn't get the clean hit" safety net. What should be kept in mind is that it's tuned towards pure offense at the cost of utility. Falco's Bair is just hit hard and hit fast. How and why it connected are not concerns about this move. By the sheer speed of it, out of shield, or some wacky setup, none of this matters. For anything else such as a poke and as (shield) pressure, it doesn't do this well and most of it comes from it's short range.

Falco's Bair has the same range as Fox's, but Falco is taller and both of their Bairs have less range than Luigi and Mario's from this sloppy test I did a while back: http://smashboards.com/threads/char...heories-tactics.422864/page-168#post-20711479. Short-range hurts Falco's ability to use it for jump-ins which I don't think Falco should be doing and it would have worked if he could zone properly instead of having to play a more rushdown and in your face pressure with his aerials and horizontal mobility. And really, it shouldn't have good range. The lack of base knockback on its clean hit can make it unsafe on-hit at low percents against some characters, heavier and/or ones with fast moves. Not a major problem when you consider that past that, it's going to send people flying.

For setups, Dtilt, Uair, and D-throw can all setup his Bair and they all stop working past mid-percents -- past that and it's all chasing and DI reading. U-throw too if for whatever reason his opponents lets Falco position for a Bair. Problem: Falco never gets a reliable KO setup into it. Closest is during high percents, after a back hit of Uair and the opponent DI's into Falco. It's definitely going to KO at the ledge, but it's situational.

It's a good move, but there are times where it's overrated. On Falco or anyone else, this move might not really be any better. Sure, some characters might have better setups, but for what it is, you'd have a fast and strong, but short-ranged Bair geared specifically for one purpose: hit hard and hit fast. If it were modified, like same or similar frame data, but with the hitbox and properties of a different Bair or different move, then yes, it would be good to the point I'd argue it would be broken. Could you imagine DK, Mewtwo, Palutena, Roy, Sheik, Shulk, or Villager's Bair with Falco's Bair frame data modified to fit theirs? Freaking Villager with a frame 4, 13% bullet. Shulk could shoot up tiers with that. Now it's got range and power and speed. Oh, and it auto-cancels now. Yeah, have fun in Hell, everyone.

 

[HoSmash4]

Sheiks back air isnt that amazing. 8 damage, kills really late. Biggest issue is that the back air extends sheiks hurtbox so it isnt that viable as a spacing tool in neutral compared to fair. Top of C only because other bairs are amazing. The one thing that makes it amazing is the frame its frame 4 and not a lot of landing lag (still shield grabbable because of hurtbox extension)

Best bairs

(aura)

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

I can suggest some not so noteworthy back airs (excluding ). They're around C-D Tier in my opinion:
: You can recover with it but it's really slow and not particularly useful otherwise.
: Slow, very specific sweetspot hitbox.
: The range is really nice as is the KO power, but it's very slow and laggy.
: This move is pretty weak and laggy.
: If this move was faster or had some range, it would be B.
: (see Duck Hunt)
: High risk, high reward, and the move is fast, but the sweetspot is tiny.


Will suggest noteworthy back airs in a bit.

 

[Airpoizon]

should not be that low, his Bair does good damage, little end and landing lag, and turns himself around and is able to chain into fair, uair, and up b. Also the tip of his Bair and jab lock/reset at low percents. (Around 0-25) which can lead into a free F-smash.

 

[JosePollo]

: Slow, very specific sweetspot hitbox.

Not as specific as you'd think, considering the meteor hitbox itself is the biggest hitbox on the attack. You also don't need to sweet spot the back air every time to get a good result. Sour spot back air is able to combo into various things like nair or falling up air at early to mid percents and even meteor back air at certain percents, which itself can combo into a footstool if the opponent misses the tech on the floor. Down throw to sour spot back air to meteor back air is a combo around the 40-70% range on a lot of the cast. It's a guaranteed stock if you get the grab near the ledge. Even the grounded sweet spot is useful. It's decently strong, able to KO laterally at around 110% near the ledge, the first two frames of the attack are able to hit above through platforms and can cause opponents to slide off of platforms at early percents, where you can then follow up with an f-til for the jab lock, or another back air since it can also jab lock.

 

[Wintermelon43]

lol at Zelda's spot. Otherwise it seems pretty good. But Zelda's back air is laggy and hard to hit the sweetspot with. It should be 2 tiers lower.

I can suggest some not so noteworthy back airs (excluding ). They're around C-D Tier in my opinion:
: You can recover with it but it's really slow and not particularly useful otherwise.
: Slow, very specific sweetspot hitbox.
: The range is really nice as is the KO power, but it's very slow and laggy.
: This move is pretty weak and laggy.
: If this move was faster or had some range, it would be B.
: (see Duck Hunt)
: High risk, high reward, and the move is fast, but the sweetspot is tiny.


Will suggest noteworthy back airs in a bit.

Have you ever even SEEN a match with Jigglypuff in it??? That move is used a TON, it's a great edgeguarding tool and a good killing tool. It may have some startup, but it isn't really that bad in that and still hits a lot of the time when you want it too, and it's range isn't that bad either from what i've seen. If it went down it would be eventhubby.

Pac-Man's b-air is actually pretty strong, it isn't crazy strong but still pretty strong. Duck Hunt's b-air also doesn't have much startup either, and it's a good comboing tool and can be good to get people to hit a can.

Shulk in no way deserves to go down to Little Mac tier. At least it's USABLE. Really, if anything, it could go up, although I'm not sure about that.

 

[Nintenpro]

Falco's Bair is god tier (frame 4, 13%, safe on shield, kill mad early).

 

[Airpoizon]

Yeah, Falcos Bair is godly. Should be in top A, 13%, kills crazy early, and has, like, no startup.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco's Bair is god tier (frame 4, 13%, safe on shield, kill mad early).

Short range, only 2 active frames for its clean hit, no base knockback on the clean hit can make it unsafe on-hit at low percents against some characters -- can ignore this if Falco lands instead of using it higher up leaving him airborne --, and no reliable KO setups. You can setup it at low to mid-percents, but when you really need to KO with it, that's not going to happen outside of situational stuff like opponent DIs into you after a back hit of Uair. Meanwhile, Luigi can still reliably setup his Bair which is just as powerful as Falco's, but is 2 frames slower. 6 frames is still pretty fast. Another problem is that as one of Falco's more abused moves, it stales fast.

Also, it does not "kill mad early". ~110% at center stage and ~80% at the ledge are good, but not anything special, especially since newer characters were introduced with moves that kill at half the percent and are just as fast and/or just as safe, but with much more range: Limit Cross Slash and Shoryuken. There are other Bairs that KO at similar percents, but are more useful or can be setup like Luigi's which I mentioned earlier or Samus's; twice as slow at an average 9 frame startup, Samus's Bair is just as strong as Falco's, but has almost double the range. There's also Ike and Robin's Bairs. Much more range and disjointed too while being pretty fast at frame 7.

After you get over its fast, frame 4 startup and high knockback growth on its clean hit, you have to understand that's all it has going for it. Everything else is average -- landing lag, recovery -- or even poor -- range. It's got good auto-cancel like Fox's, but so do other Bairs and aerials. Doesn't change much; it doesn't have the leggy range of Bayonetta, Samus, and ZSS's Bair, it's clearly not (naturally) disjointed like Ike, Mega Man, or Toon Link's, it doesn't have Fox's shallower hit angle, it doesn't have a big hitbox like Bowser, an angled-down hitbox like Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, or Shulk's, or an arcing one like Charizard or Mewtwo's; it doesn't have DK's low recovery, it doesn't have reliable KO setups like Bayonetta, Sonic, or ZSS's, and it doesn't have special properties like Corrin, Palutena, or ROB's. It runs purely on the fact it's fast and it hits hard. For that, it trades everything away. It's a good Bair, a good move, but it's not "god-tier". It's not the Melee Falco Bair or Brawl Wolf Bair people want it to be and really, that's not a problem. Just because it's not one of the best Bairs doesn't meant it can't be good. At best, it's B-tier; A-tier is pushing it when you have much better, versatile Bairs.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Have you ever even SEEN a match with Jigglypuff in it??? That move is used a TON, it's a great edgeguarding tool and a good killing tool. It may have some startup, but it isn't really that bad in that and still hits a lot of the time when you want it too, and it's range isn't that bad either from what i've seen. If it went down it would be eventhubby.

Pac-Man's b-air is actually pretty strong, it isn't crazy strong but still pretty strong. Duck Hunt's b-air also doesn't have much startup either, and it's a good comboing tool and can be good to get people to hit a can.

Shulk in no way deserves to go down to Little Mac tier. At least it's USABLE. Really, if anything, it could go up, although I'm not sure about that.

You realize that there are other bairs that are just way more impressive than any of these bairs, right? Even if a bair has some good things going for it, it can still be pretty lackluster compared to others.

Jiggs' bair is a 12 frame move with mediocre range and 18 frames of landing lag. It's not that good in a game where many bairs:

1. are fast and have low lag, but have poor range
2. are slow and have moderate landing lag, but have good range
3. have good range, low lag and fast startup

Duck Hunt and Pac Man have decent startup on their bairs but neither of them is particularly strong.

I also never suggested moving Shulk down to Little Mac tier. I'm just saying that it's lacking by a significant degree because of the startup and landing lag.

Not as specific as you'd think, considering the meteor hitbox itself is the biggest hitbox on the attack. You also don't need to sweet spot the back air every time to get a good result. Sour spot back air is able to combo into various things like nair or falling up air at early to mid percents and even meteor back air at certain percents, which itself can combo into a footstool if the opponent misses the tech on the floor. Down throw to sour spot back air to meteor back air is a combo around the 40-70% range on a lot of the cast. It's a guaranteed stock if you get the grab near the ledge. Even the grounded sweet spot is useful. It's decently strong, able to KO laterally at around 110% near the ledge, the first two frames of the attack are able to hit above through platforms and can cause opponents to slide off of platforms at early percents, where you can then follow up with an f-til for the jab lock, or another back air since it can also jab lock.

Hm, the sourspot combos into his other aerials? Interesting, didn't know that. Having said that, I still think it's lacking compared to the other back airs. It could probably remain in Low B or Top C.


I still need to post some noteworthy bairs.

 

[LRodC]

I would move Mewtwo down to C. It's not a bad move by any means, but it has pretty slow start up and fairly situational use. It's a great move to edgeguard with if the opponent recovers high, and it's great on the ledge if you're facing backwards, but other than that, Mewtwo's other aerials are more useful. Not bad at all, but considering how good back airs are in this game, C seems like an okay spot.

I also agree with Falco being A or B tier and Dedede's back air moving to either C or B. Both are very important moves for the characters.

 

[TriTails]

Meanwhile, Luigi can still reliably setup his Bair which is just as powerful as Falco's, but is 2 frames slower.

Wot.

Setting up from N-air or U-tilt is not 'reliable' considering the former is hella unsafe on shield for the late hit and the latter is kinda underused in Luigi's kit itself for the reason D-smash is also suffering from the same problem, it can't be used out of a run. Even if you did land those moves, B-air isn't really killing anyone unless they are at the ledge or something.

I'm not sure if 110% at center stage is not 'early' either. Luigi's B-air kills Mario at 140% at center of 3DS FD w/o rage. Add in Wii U blastzone... 135~%-ish? That's still quite a bit away from Falco's. Although, rage thrives more in Luigi due to his better survivability, and he hits people with it more simply because range.

IMO, Falco's B-air is... surprisingly quite meh in comparison to its numbers. Yes. It's frame 4. Yes, it deals 13%. Yes, it kills nicely... but I would argue a lot of B-airs are better. Not because the move suck, but because it's on Falco.

Y'know, Falco. The one with the slow run speed and airspeed. The move itself has little range and is only active for 2 frames if you want to kill. Falco doesn't have much horizontal mobility to begin with. In the air, frame data matters less when end lags can be partially supressed by simply moving in the air, and range often just trumps frame data when you're airbone. It's not abusable as the likes of Mario's B-air because sometimes you just can't get the move to ****ing hit.

The move has its upsides though. You crossed up his shield? He can pull out a killing B-air in 10 frames right where he stands. Get hit at the ledge and you're screwed. He hit you with this move on shield? This thing has godlike AC at frame 15, which is 4 frames away from the late hit that ends at frame 11. Falco has 15 frames of land lag otherwise, which is pretty decent. You probably aren't punishing him that way. Not when his jab is frame 2 (Although, the said jab is unfortunately wonky). You airdodged inside him? Help. The sweetspot is pretty close to Falco's body. So... pray????

Overall, I think the move fits in B. Whenever I play Falco I don't feel the move to be as useful as those in A tier. I play both Mario and Doc and Falco's B-air is simply not as abuseable as theirs. I can't throw them out willy nilly because the space it does cover isn't something to write home about, whereas with Mario I can go flying to North America while spamming B-airs all day and with Doc I'm basically a kangaroo on fire.

 

[Crystanium]

Since others have commented on Samus' b-air, I want to add that doing a dodge after landing, should the opponent shield, I believe, allows Samus to avoid punishment. I'm not too happy about Samus' placement with d-air. >:[

 

[Ffamran]

Wot.

Setting up from N-air or U-tilt is not 'reliable' considering the former is hella unsafe on shield for the late hit and the latter is kinda underused in Luigi's kit itself for the reason D-smash is also suffering from the same problem, it can't be used out of a run. Even if you did land those moves, B-air isn't really killing anyone unless they are at the ledge or something.

Wait... I thought Luigi could still try for Bair setups from D-throw? So many characters to follow, so little time... Also, still think Luigi's Down Smash is really good. You might not be able to use out of a run because of Luigi's low traction, but the fact it's fast and has one of the lowest recoveries for a Smash is still pretty damn good.

I'm not sure if 110% at center stage is not 'early' either. Luigi's B-air kills Mario at 140% at center of 3DS FD w/o rage. Add in Wii U blastzone... 135~%-ish? That's still quite a bit away from Falco's. Although, rage thrives more in Luigi due to his better survivability, and he hits people with it more simply because range.

You're not always KO'ing at center stage, especially with aerials. Now, if it KO'd at ~80% center stage which would probably mean it KO'd at ~60% at the ledge, then yeah, that would be early. There's also the fact that there are moves that KO much, much earlier at half the percent Falco's (and Samus's) Bair do. If they didn't or if this was discussed way back then, then Falco's Bair could be argued as a somewhat early KO move, but not now.

And yes, Luigi gets much more out of rage than Falco does even with the "low" 12 base knockback.

IMO, Falco's B-air is... surprisingly quite meh in comparison to its numbers. Yes. It's frame 4. Yes, it deals 13%. Yes, it kills nicely... but I would argue a lot of B-airs are better. Not because the move suck, but because it's on Falco.

Y'know, Falco. The one with the slow run speed and airspeed. The move itself has little range and is only active for 2 frames if you want to kill. Falco doesn't have much horizontal mobility to begin with. In the air, frame data matters less when end lags can be partially supressed by simply moving in the air, and range often just trumps frame data when you're airbone. It's not abusable as the likes of Mario's B-air because sometimes you just can't get the move to ****ing hit.

The move has its upsides though. You crossed up his shield? He can pull out a killing B-air in 10 frames right where he stands. Get hit at the ledge and you're screwed. He hit you with this move on shield? This thing has godlike AC at frame 15, which is 4 frames away from the late hit that ends at frame 11. Falco has 15 frames of land lag otherwise, which is pretty decent. You probably aren't punishing him that way. Not when his jab is frame 2 (Although, the said jab is unfortunately wonky). You airdodged inside him? Help. The sweetspot is pretty close to Falco's body. So... pray????

Overall, I think the move fits in B. Whenever I play Falco I don't feel the move to be as useful as those in A tier. I play both Mario and Doc and Falco's B-air is simply not as abuseable as theirs. I can't throw them out willy nilly because the space it does cover isn't something to write home about, whereas with Mario I can go flying to North America while spamming B-airs all day and with Doc I'm basically a kangaroo on fire.

I'd argue it's both the move and Falco that's "bad" about his Bair. You cannot have a move like that without consequences. Yes, this also applies to Limit Break Cross Slash where you have to charge and use up meter or input Shoryuken where you have to learn and be able to consistently input it. Falco's Bair has to be bad for it not to be broken. Gearing it towards pure offense with its frame data: frame 4 startup, 13%, 130 growth clean hit, and good auto-cancel, gets balanced by its clean hit only being active for 2 frames, average 27 recovery frames -- technically 33 frames if you ignore the late hit --, average 15 landing frames, and short range. If you gave this move to anyone else, it wouldn't be any better. Another character can make more use of it perhaps, but it's still the same Bair with high speed and high power, but short range. ZSS with Falco's Bair would halve her startup, but also halve her range. It would also remove any benefit of rage -- drop of 42 base. She could probably setup with it and she's faster in the air, but she still needs to close the distance by moving which could take more time than inputting Bair and having her Bair reach with its range. Now, if you gave ZSS Falco's Bair frame data and perhaps modified it, so she could keep the benefits of rage or whatever, then yeah, her Bair got better not Falco's Bair being better on her. Her Bair would be faster, stronger, have less recovery, better auto-cancel, and have a late hit for a safety net and potential resets while keeping its amazing range, benefit from rage, and lower landing lag. Like I said much earlier in my spoilered opinions, have fun in Hell.

For Falco, his Bair is essentially on Guile, a character who isn't meant to approach, but zones forcing reactions he responds to. Although this doesn't work in practice because Blaster is a piece of crap, Bair does that really well. Falco's Bair frame data makes it really good for air-to-air combat when it's one of the fastest and strongest aerials. It also, as you said, is a strong OOS punish, especially against cross-ups. There is a reason why I always say that you never want to be behind Falco. So in a way, it has to be on the bad character while also being bad (in hitbox) to not be a broken move. You give it insane offensive capabilities while purposely ignoring utility and you give it to a character who, as a classic zoner, isn't meant to approach to contain its power. At the same time, its insane offense makes it a good defense; sheer speed and power allows it to be an immediate punish from OOS, from frame traps from Uair, against poor approaches, or on whiffs.

The point I've been trying to make is that Falco's Bair is good, but it's not the best or amazing. Specializing it in pure offense makes it less versatile. It's not a Wolf Bair where both Brawl and PM Wolf's Bair would be a better move than Smash 4 Falco's Bair. What it does well, however, is what makes it good, but there are times when people get caught up in its sheer speed and power and overlook its flaws and overlook the fact that it can be as good as it wants, but without any KO setups, coverage or range, etc., there's a limit to what it can do. Even on other characters who could find more reliable setups with it, I don't think it's any better than B-tier since you'd force a specialized move on them when they already had moves geared for them or other purposes like DK, Marth, or Pikachu's Bair or force a trade on them like Captain Falcon who would not only lose range and rage benefits, but also a Bair that can hit low in a trade for faster startup or Ryu who would have a faster, stronger Bair, but lose his Bair's damage, range, and unique animation.

Also, it has no sweet-spot or sour-spot; just a clean hit and a late hit. Speaking of a Bair that has a sweet-spot, Wii Fit Trainer's Bair... I think it's pretty good, but there are some weird problems like apparently, its sweet-spot is smaller than Zelda's Fair and Bair. You can barely see it here.

Spoiler: WFT Bair

Spoiler: Zelda Bair

That being said, it's a frame 5 Bair that can KO pretty well. In a way, it's a mixture of Falco and Zelda's Bair where it has the damage, speed, and safer late hit of Falco's, but the sweet-spot, larger overall coverage or hitbox, higher landing lag, higher recovery, and worse auto-cancel of Zelda's. It shares both of their low active frame on the clean hit; leans towards Zelda more with 1 active frame. I think it's a pretty good Bair, but... there are potential problems that would keep it from going to B-tier.

 

[Xygonn]

Thanks for the samus bair love It also has other cool stuff. Combos into itself. You can use the late hit to prattack or lock at low percents (missed tech on platform from dthrow at 0% for example). It has sufficiently fast recovery to can SH bair and get the first hitbox of uair out before landing, or jump out of it, etc. It's not S tier, but it sure isn't D-tier. High B/Low A. Bair is a pretty good move for lots of characters.

 

[TriTails]

Wait... I thought Luigi could still try for Bair setups from D-throw? So many characters to follow, so little time... Also, still think Luigi's Down Smash is really good. You might not be able to use out of a run because of Luigi's low traction, but the fact it's fast and has one of the lowest recoveries for a Smash is still pretty damn good.

Nah buddy. At best it's 50/50. If you true combo off D-throw chances they are not in B-air's kill percents yet. People can usually just DI away and then double jump out (Airdodge if necesary) with their godlike airspeeds.

Yeah. Luigi's D-smash is very, very good. I think it's one of the best D-smash out there. Frame 6 in the front and frame 14 behind (Which kills earlier than U-smash IIRC). It also apparently has FAF of 38... In comparison, Mario's D-smash is 44. That is incredibly fast for a move that deals 14% per pop.

Thing is, playing against Luigi encourages you to play defensively. So when you ecounter opponents like that, you often just end up running all over the place to catch them. And when you do, you're usually better off doing dashgrab for combos or reverse running U-smash for killing.

If D-smash was usable out of a run my Luigi would pretty much be the D-smash monarch lol.

(Walk -> D-smash works tho. I'd be interested to see its development when top Luigis start using it more).

 

[Empyrean]

I'll go ahead and argue that Corrin's bair should be in the lower end of the list by virtue of all bairs being just that good. Somewhere in C sounds right, despite how wrong it feels imo.

Pros:
-the move autospaces and as a result is nearly ALWAYS safe on shield
-greatly disjointed
-good damage and killpower
-helps with recovery
-low landing lag

Cons:
-the forward push the move has severely limits what you can do with it; you won't convert more damage from it via combos, you can't reasonably pressure shield after landing with it for potential blockstrings since it puts you too far away. It's amazing as a spacing tool and that's about it, which isn't a bad thing per se but a lot of the other bairs can do much more.
-one of the slower bairs at frame 13 and is not spammable

I like to see it as the aerial version of MK's fsmash, trading power for speed and range. Even if you see it coming, you can't challenge it reasonably and just have to accept that you can't do anything about it besides shielding. The reason I put it in C is that despite all its pros, I can't think of too many characters that would trade their own bair for Corrin's. Bairs are too good, man.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I think Kirby's fits better in B.
It's decently safe if spaced right, good knock back and is good for edge guarding, it can AC from a short bio very easily and can change into itself a couple times from the sourspot. It also can be comboes into from Utilt and from Bthrow. It deserves to at least be in B, it ain't bad, but it's.....not too special.

 

[HoSmash4]

An important thing to take account with bairs is the characters airspeed. So even though jiggs bair is frame 12 its really good to space because of her airspeed

 

[Funbot28]

Ok time for a new update:

Spoiler: Back-Air

TL;DR:
S -> A
A -> C
B -> A
D -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
D -> C
D -> C
B -> C
B -> C
D -> C

Still want more discussion on Falco moving up to A in order to make a change or not.

 

[Furret24]

Ok time for a new update:

Spoiler: Back-Air

TL;DR:
S -> A
A -> C
B -> A
D -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
D -> C
D -> C
B -> C
B -> C
D -> C

Still want more discussion on Falco moving up to A in order to make a change or not.

Ness should definitely go up to atleast B tier. High damage output (15%), large, lingering hitbox, good kill power, and a great autocancel window.

Ike should go up too. His back air has more utility and is an overall better attack than the other back airs in C tier.

Diddy should go down to A tier imo. Eh damage and lacking kill power hold it back from being in S tier (though, it's everything else keeps it as one of the best bairs in the game still).

Doc's Bair should be S tier. It's arguably the best back air in the game. It has a good damage output (13.44%), it comes out and ends quickly, it's very strong, has decent landing lag, autocancels in a shorthop, can combo into itself at very low percents, and is really important move in Doc's arsenal. The only problems I see with the move are it's "okay" range and the fact that it's on Doc of all characters (a character with below average air speed).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Again: why is Ike in C and Sonic is in A, when their Bairs are borderline identical except Ike's is all disjoint vs Sonic's faster recovery when using it in the air, and it compares very well with Robin's?

 

[kendikong]

I second Zelda's bair going down to C on account of her slow air speed. For the same reason, Kirby is fine where he's at. I think Falco is fine in B.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Why is Meta Knight in A and Megaman in C? Aren't they pretty much the same move?

Also, move ZSS back up to S. That move is insane, it's fast, safe, has decent range, and kills super early.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Ok time for a new update:

Spoiler: Back-Air

TL;DR:
S -> A
A -> C
B -> A
D -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
D -> C
D -> C
B -> C
B -> C
D -> C

Still want more discussion on Falco moving up to A in order to make a change or not.

Zelda should defitenly not be in B. Laggy, unsafe, and the sweetspot is extremely hard to hit with. That move is really bad and should be in D.

And shouldn't Mega Man's and Ike's back air be higher? They're very good kill moves, are important to them, and don't have bad frame data to screw up the move.

 

[Ffamran]

Ok time for a new update:

Spoiler: Back-Air

TL;DR:
S -> A
A -> C
B -> A
D -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
D -> C
D -> C
B -> C
B -> C
D -> C

Still want more discussion on Falco moving up to A in order to make a change or not.

You forgot to mention Samus in the TL;DR section.

Again: why is Ike in C and Sonic is in A, when their Bairs are borderline identical except Ike's is all disjoint vs Sonic's faster recovery when using it in the air, and it compares very well with Robin's?

How are they identical? Ike's is almost twice as fast, is naturally disjointed, lacks a sour-spot, and has 11 less landing frames -- for whatever reason, Sonic's Bair has 30 landing frames. The only thing Sonic's Bair edges over Ike's is that it has 10 more base, 40 to Ike's 30, on its 14% hitbox, has 21 recovery frames to Ike's 46 and has a slightly better auto-cancel. Now, in relation to the character, Sonic's Bair is easily setup from his Spin Charge/Dash and Sonic's much faster, but still, Sonic's Bair is almost in telegraphed range of startup compared to Ike's quick snapping Bair. Ike's high recovery on Bair kind of doesn't matter since Ike generally doesn't stay in the air for long after using an aerial; Ike usually lands, preferably auto-canceling. Same thing with Sonic, but yes, Sonic can use it in the air more, but that does come at the cost of the higher startup which could be inversely applied to Ike i.e. Ike's faster startup means he shouldn't be able to use it successively in the air.

I do stand with that Ike's Bair should be higher -- at least in B-tier. At the same time, part of me wants to argue that it's the best sword user Bair in the game over Robin. A part of that, outside of Ike bias (), comes from Ike's Bair is always powerful while Robin's can be powerful (Levin) or not (Bronze). That's not really fair and I kind of wished there was a way to mark Robin as (Levin) and (Bronze). Who knows, some people might think Robin's Bair, regardless if it's Levin or Bronze, is the really that good, starts to abuse it, runs out uses, and WHAM! they just wasted a powerful move and have to deal with having precious time where they don't have it.

I second Zelda's bair going down to C on account of her slow air speed.

Her air speed is average. Smash 4 is pretty much the first game where Mario isn't truly Mr. Average; Mario's air speed, 1.15, could be argued as not average, but above-average. In that case, average air speed would be like 1.00 which is what Bowser, Robin, and Rosalina have. Back to Zelda, her air speed is 1.04. If you want slow, then start looking at around Bayonetta (0.97) and down. The only problem with Zelda's air mobility is her below-average, below 0.07, air acceleration of 0.055. Even then, she feels faster than a character with high air acceleration, but low air speed like Falco; Falco's air acceleration is the second highest as of 1.08 tied with Ness and Pikachu at 0.09, but his air speed is 0.93.

On paper, Zelda's Fair and Bair would be really good if you could consistently land the sweet-spot. If you can't which is what happens in practice, it's shaky. In terms of her overall aerial moves, it hurts to have two of the same, specialized moves. The move itself, however, is good, but very specialized in offense that it sacrifices or rather, has to be made bad, to not be broken. If Zelda's Bair frame data was just slapped on say, Ryu, and it had none of its weaknesses, but all of it and Ryu's strengths, Ryu would have a broken Bair.

Why is Meta Knight in A and Megaman in C? Aren't they pretty much the same move?

Also, move ZSS back up to S. That move is insane, it's fast, safe, has decent range, and kills super early.

Not really? Mega Man uses his more for KO'ing which Meta Knight also does, but Meta Knight extends it to being able to setup with it by fast falling with it. I don't know if Mega Man can setup with his Bair like that since his Bair also has auto-link angles which should drag people down too if he fast fell to the ground. It's kind of weird... Mega Man's Bair only has 1 active frame per hit, totaling up to 3 for its 3 hits, and each hit has a 2 frame gap while Meta Knight's Bair has 2 active frames per hit, totaling up to 6 for its 3 hits, and each hit has a 4 frame gap. I don't know what SDI multiplier or hit lag multiplier they have that would differentiate them, but in theory, Mega Man's Bair should connect much better with its lower frame gaps despite, but there are times where people have said Mega Man's Bair doesn't connect well. Anyway, that being said, Mega Man's Bair is a pretty good move. I'd say B-tier, but I just can't explain it since I'm not a Mega Man player.

For ZSS, my argument, which is heavily flawed because I'm not a ZSS player, is that with Bayonetta and Samus having similar Bairs, especially Bayonetta who basically has a slower, but stronger version to ZSS, and all three being able to setup and use their Bairs similarly e.g. Samus and ZSS ledge trump Bairs are basically the same thing, it's a bit odd to have ZSS above Bayonetta and in the preliminary list, be S-tier while Samus's was D-tier. I think they're much closer, but ZSS has an edge with better overall mobility, however, that comes at the cost of having a slightly weaker Bair compared to Bayonetta and Samus. That being said, I don't think her mobility edges her out that much over them when it's not like her Bair has low recovery like DK's, invincibility like Palutena's, or something. This is the reason why I felt like either ZSS had to move down with Bayonetta or Bayonetta had to move up with ZSS not to mention that Samus had to move up at least in B-tier since her Bair really didn't belong in D-tier.

Speaking of which, what makes Diddy's Bair that much better compared to everyone? Don't know much about Diddy and I'd just like an explanation is all.

The weird thing about Bairs is that few of them are bad. At worse, they're pretty average. There could be an argument that everyone could move up a tier and E-tier could be even be empty where Little Mac's is the only D-tier Bair.

 

[Lavani]

Why is Meta Knight in A and Megaman in C? Aren't they pretty much the same move?

Meta Knight's bair can set up resets even mid-combo or against a grounded opponent, and also connects reliably on grounded opponents. MK also has multiple jumps to facilitate its usage in edgeguarding.

Megaman's bair's first two hits push grounded opponents away instead of lifting them into the move, the vs air autolinks don't have enough knockback to force knockdown for resets unless you're like, at 150% vs Sheik or lighter, he doesn't have combos into or out of it aside from like, Crash Bomber or Z-drop Metal Blade...the main selling points to it are that it's a 4f highly disjointed kill move (which is actually pretty big and might warrant B tbh), but it has a lot less going for it than Meta Knight's.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ffamran Right, comparing too many moves.

But that brings up a point: do we consider the characters they're attached to or just in a vacuum? As pointed out that can make quite the difference for say, Dr.Mario or Falco's Bairs.

 

[Lavani]

Moves shouldn't be considered in a vacuum because they don't exist in a vacuum.

 

[Ffamran]

Ffamran Right, comparing too many moves.

But that brings up a point: do we consider the characters they're attached to or just in a vacuum? As pointed out that can make quite the difference for say, Dr.Mario or Falco's Bairs.

I'd say both which is what I tried to do with Falco and everyone else who I'm not as knowledgeable on, but I'm not the thread creator so... Using Bayonetta, Samus, and ZSS again, if you compared just their Bairs, you'd have similar and amazing Bairs. In a vacuum, I'd argue that all three are at least A-tier Bairs. Doing that with everyone else and it could be boring and unrealistic.

In a vacuum, Zelda's Bair could be argued as the best Bair in the game where on paper and in perfect play, her Bair would decimate everything. Problem: that's not really how things work. You have to consider Zelda, her attributes, moveset, and whatever else that makes Zelda along with intent in design. At the same time, the extreme shouldn't happen where you consider a character who a lot of people think is just trash and then say, welp, she sucks, so her moves suck too -- no offense to OP, but that's kind of what I got when I saw Samus's Bair all the way down in D-tier. That's not really a good way to analyze things. Yes, Zelda's not really the best character and she can't really abuse her Bair, but that doesn't automatically drop her Bair down to E-tier. At the same time, her Bair, while good on paper, can't always be amazing because we're not machines, we're prone to mistakes, so it's not super amazing. Thinking about that all, the conclusion would be something like Zelda's Bair is around B-tier where at most it could edge into A-tier with insanely good play, because of the massive reward you get from sweet-spotting it, and while on a "bad" character, Zelda or anyone else for that matter can make it work. The other side is that at worst, it would be in C-tier since it's difficult to be consistent with, is pretty limiting because of how specialized it is, and that no character can really abuse the move.

This is difficult to argue since I don't know much about Zelda.

Moves shouldn't be considered in a vacuum because they don't exist in a vacuum.

Part of me really wishes a character had an actual vacuum as a normal or Special -- not considering Kirby and Triple D's Inhales as vacuums 'cause they're not actual vacuum machines or Luigi's Final Smash because Final Smashes aren't freely usable -- so we could talk about how in a vacuum, this vacuum move would be doing whatever it does and how well it does in a vacuum.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Don't mean to broken record, but I still feel that Brawler and Pikachu are definitely misplaced. Brawler is Mario's Bair, but take away the added active frames of the late hit, the two uses in a single short hop, and further reduce the kill potential. Pikachu's is wildly unsafe for neutral, only amounts to 8% total damage, no kill potential, and unreliably links its hits. It's greatest qualities are shared with Nair. The best use is actively trying to make the victim fall out offstage for a weak gimp attempt. Pikachu seems like a definite D to me, Brawler at least reduced to C.

Megaman's bair's first two hits push grounded opponents away instead of lifting them into the move, the vs air autolinks don't have enough knockback to force knockdown for resets unless you're like, at 150% vs Sheik or lighter, he doesn't have combos into or out of it aside from like, Crash Bomber or Z-drop Metal Blade...the main selling points to it are that it's a 4f highly disjointed kill move (which is actually pretty big and might warrant B tbh), but it has a lot less going for it than Meta Knight's.

Agreed with its shortcomings, I also believe that as a low damage launching attack, it scales dreadfully with move staling for when you eventually need it to secure a stock. But I have to second a raise to MM's Bair. It's his best aerial and stands up well with B tier. Easy to edgeguard with, even without the aid of a z-dropped metal blade setup. The hitbox is large and will out-prioritize any hitbox recovery you need it to.

Speaking of which, what makes Diddy's Bair that much better compared to everyone? Don't know much about Diddy and I'd just like an explanation is all.

Two uses in a short hop air time with the second coming out with just a frame or two left of air time with easy, consistent buffering just like DK. It's good, safe shield pressure. Diddy trades DK's moderate killing power and active frames for less landing lag. That lower landing lag gets it past the drop shield > dash grab which threatens any DK that fails to spot dodge in time against practiced players, but I would still give it to DK in the end.

My only gripe with DK's Bair is the first, rising Bair can be crouched under by everybody except Dedede and I guess Ganondorf depending on spacing, and being shorter than Mario is generally good enough without crouching. To be fair most of the Bairs in this game won't strike grounded targets when performed in a way that autocancels, so maybe we need to re-evaluate the worth of these AC windows if it only means covering targets at platform height. If an aerial can reach that low when rising, that makes it an OoS option.

 

[Routa]

Yeah I do agree that B is too high for Brawler's Bair too and that Ike's Bair is too low.

I'm not sure if Pit(s)' Bair should be a bit higher. @LancerStaff what do you think about Pit(s)' Bair? What I have understood from my short career as Dark Pit is that it is great kill and spacing tool.