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Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

What will you like to discuss next?

  • Jabs

    Votes: 29 72.5%
  • Grabs

    Votes: 3 7.5%
  • Continue with Specials

    Votes: 8 20.0%

  • Total voters
    40
  • Poll closed .

Funbot28

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Ok so new update coming through:


TL;DR:
:4littlemac:
S -> A
:4ryu: S -> A
:4lucario: B -> A
:4zelda: C -> A
:4ness: D -> A
:4dk: B -> A
:4megaman: C -> B
:4dedede: C -> B
:4rob: C -> B
:4bowserjr: C -> B
:4shulk: D -> C
:4pacman: D -> C

BTW, new slate is coming on Wednesday so discuss final changes for Down-Tilt before the deadline
 
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Esquire

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:4miibrawl:: D is way too low, considering what is with it and what's above it. DTilt is a nice, meaty 8% that leads into a guaranteed follow-up, including FAir, UAir, NAir, BAir (reversed), Helicopter Kick, Piston Punch, and various other moves. It's one of Brawler's longest-reaching normals. It also is an excellent tool at catching the two-frame ledge vulnerability, which when caught leads to the same guaranteed set-ups as when on the ground. It's most similar to Greninja's DTilt, but lacks the same range. I'd personally place it in the B-tier somewhere, maybe between Pikachu and Jigglypuff (although it's better than some of the ones listed above it, but the current rankings are weird to use for comparisons IMO). That seems right.
 
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LRodC

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I defended it before, and I'll defend it again: Little Mac's down tilt is S tier worthy. It kill confirms into KO punch and up B, it is safe on shield if spaced properly, it is frame 3 with only 22 FAFs, and it combos into his tilts and forward air.

I think Mega Man's should go down to C. It's laggy and generally pretty unrewarding. Essentially inferior to Cloud's.

I think Bowser's should move to B. It's a nice damage racker at early percents, and it's a powerful poke at later percents. Maybe an actual Bowser main can help out with this one. Zapp Branniglenn Zapp Branniglenn
 
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~ Gheb ~

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Yeah, I'm not sure what Lucario's doing up there either. His dtilt is as average as it gets.

Wario though ... such a good dtilt. Should be A-Tier.

:059:
 

Masonomace

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Wait, how did :4lucario:'s Dtilt rank ↑ from B > A? It's definitely not that amazing to be A tier, even though the tilt feels nice. His Ftilt is used more & performs better for Lucario as a general tilt than his Dtilt & yet Lucario's Ftilt was ranked B tier. Dtilt is good for like, the early phase of the opponent's stock if you want to get dash grab followups & then that's it. Ftilt becomes a better tilt for the majority of phases within the battle after the early phase passes by.
EDIT: Forgot to say that I feel Lucario Dtilt is C tier material. It's a so-so tilt that's there & can be used frequently if you wished, but it's decent.


And now that a new list is out, I take a gander at C tier & feel that :4bowser: & :4shulk: could move ↑ a rank yet I'm not as confident in Bowser as I am with Shulk, and :4luigi: a rank ↓. When I look at B tier, I feel that :4jigglypuff: & :4megaman: could move a rank ↓. Although, Luigi Puff & Mega Man aren't my most knowledgeable characters so I'm open-minded to hear from other users of the reasonings behind their tier rating. But I do feel that Shulk warrants B tier in comparison to other C tier Dtilts since it is a tilt that is often used in Neutral as a poke on block, a ground-zoning tool with great range, creates momentum mixups & some true combos, and the move is a big contribute to a character like Shulk. I'd give up a good amount of character's Dtilt for Shulk's Dtilt.

EDIT: Oh right, Gheb reminded me of :4wario: as well. Him, :4rob:, & :4myfriends: all have A-tier level Dtilts I feel.
 
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Ffamran

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I remember that I argued for Ness's Dtilt to be higher... I meant up to C-tier not A-tier or even B-tier. Ness's Dtilt has none of the range or the setups of Ryu's light Dtilt. I think Ness can Dtilt to grab, but once again, much shorter range than Ryu's.

I would also argue in favor of Shulk's moving up to B-tier with Ike and Bowser should probably go up to B-tier too. Bowser's Dtilt is average in startup at 10, hits hard, especially the first hit, and has arm invincibility for both hits, 10-12 and 20-22. So, 6 total I-frames that cover the entire hitboxes of both hits. It can connect both hits, but probably only at lower percents. That's 25% from a frame 10 Dtilt. It's probably more like Ganondorf's old Nair, though, where it's more likely to hit once which is fine and makes sense since the first hit doesn't have set knockback -- it's just angry, regular knockback on a 14% hit -- and there's a 7 frame gap; Bowser's Dtilt hits 3(7)3. I think it can hit below the ledge, but I'm not sure about that.

Finally, I want to argue in favor of Yoshi's Dtilt, but... maybe not. Decent 8 frame startup, average 3 active frames, low 14 recovery frame, and 2 hitboxes that send at a shallow 28 degrees. Yoshi uses his tail, so it's probably (naturally) disjointed. The only things going against it would be its low damage, 5% / 4.5% / 4%, and knockback, 65 base and 30 growth, which with its low damage, it wouldn't KO in the first place. It would probably be a good whiff punish to sweep under, but not a rewarding one as Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Ike, Mewtwo, or Samus's.

Oh, and Luigi's should drop down to a F-tier. Actually, everyone, Palutena and Wii Fit Trainer, in F-tier should move up to D-tier, and Luigi should be in F-tier. Pally and WFT's Dtilts at least have power and range not to mention that Pally's rocks high active frames and is recoilless. Luigi's has none of this. No power, no range, nothing special to make it stand out. The only thing his Dtilt has over the D- and F-tier Dtilts is it's fast, but that's not enough.
 
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jet56

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Ok so new update coming through:


TL;DR:
:4littlemac:
S -> A
:4ryu: S -> A
:4lucario: B -> A
:4zelda: C -> A
:4ness: D -> A
:4dk: B -> A
:4megaman: C -> B
:4dedede: C -> B
:4rob: C -> B
:4bowserjr: C -> B
:4shulk: D -> C
:4pacman: D -> C

BTW, new slate is coming on Wednesday so discuss final changes for Down-Tilt before the deadline
Let's go over something real quick:
Little Mac's Dtilt, like Diddy's, is safe on opponents shield when spaced. Little Mac's dtilt, like diddys, has absurd range for a Dtilt. Little Mac's Dtilt, like Diddy's combo's into his entire toolkit. Little Mac's dtilt, LIKE DIDDYS, has kill confirms at about 100%. AND, the move is frame 3, does 8% damage (3% more than diddys), and the only, ONLY weakness to it, is the fact that it has a very small deadzone near his body (which is never exploited, since you shouldn't be that close when using anyones dtilt anyways.)

So, why did this move drop down, if it is almost exactly the same as diddy kong's dtilt, with BETTER moves that link into it?
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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I think Bowser's should move to B. It's a nice damage racker at early percents, and it's a powerful poke at later percents. Maybe an actual Bowser main can help out with this one. Zapp Branniglenn Zapp Branniglenn
Actually, I already did before the first list. The short version is that Bowser's is a kill move, not a combo move. But even when it doesn't kill, 14% damage rivals the small combos of others. To use some A tier examples. Corrin's Dtilt to Fair at specific mid ranges ranges, Lucario's Dtilt to Dash Attack at specific low ranges. Seriously, what are these two doing here? At 0-20% both swings can connect for 25%, but the real reward is potential for tripping at those ranges for a grab combo, bringing the damage total to 55%. And as for the high ranges, moves that kill outright rather than relying on some DI-dependent followup or 50/50 are generally ideal. It also reaches low enough under the stage for catching two frames on the first swing with tight spacing, but Ftilt is preferred for this. And its safety on shield largely depends on you being close enough for both swings to connect. I think the move compares great against other Dtilts with range damage and speed even when you ignore it's potential to kill, but I have no idea where to place it because the dtilt list's B, C, and D tiers have no rhyme or reason. Brawler and G&W both have more going on with theirs than Olimar.

In fact I'd leave only Olimar in D before combining it with F to get rid of another redundant tier. Make C tier the one for moves that don't reasonably lead into anything like, ZSS, Mega Man, Duck Hunt, Dedede, Samus, Pac Man, Sonic, Fox, and Pit/Dark Pit. Next tier up for moves that don't lead into anything but are generally quick enough to safely have miss or have blocked like Robin, Marth/Lucina/Roy, Shulk. Also in this tier are moves with followups but nothing amazing, like Corrin and cloud. Moves that have low launch angles but don't kill like Falcon, Jigglypuff, Charizard. Moves that have great followups but compete with grabs, jabs, and other tilts for the same niche like Mario/Doc/Brawler, Luigi, Greninja. And finally moves that kill outright. Ganon, Gunner, and Villager can all kill off the top. I think all of these are in the same ball park of usefulness. And by setting standards like that, arguments for moving up or down will have more weight. And pointing out great Dtilts would be easier in B, A, and S tier, since those moves will usually have combinations of these applications.

Oh, and Luigi's should drop down to a F-tier. Actually, everyone, Palutena and Wii Fit Trainer, in F-tier should move up to D-tier, and Luigi should be in F-tier. Pally and WFT's Dtilts at least have power and range not to mention that Pally's rocks high active frames and is recoilless. Luigi's has none of this. No power, no range, nothing special to make it stand out. The only thing his Dtilt has over the D- and F-tier Dtilts is it's fast, but that's not enough.
Luigi's is DK's but lacks range and has more endlag. It causes trips at those 0-50% ranges like 40% of the time. And a trip means a grab. Doesn't do much else, but before it's buff I would have totally agreed with bottom tier. Not now though.
 

Ffamran

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Luigi's is DK's but lacks range and has more endlag. It causes trips at those 0-50% ranges like 40% of the time. And a trip means a grab. Doesn't do much else, but before it's buff I would have totally agreed with bottom tier. Not now though.
Compared to Palutena and Wii Fit Trainer's which are in F-tier or Mii Brawler, Mr. G&W, and Olimar, then it would be really situational since it has really short range and doesn't really do anything else -- sweeping is something most Dtilts do which it doesn't do because of its short range. My argument for why Luigi's Dtilt is bottom tier is because while it works well for what it does, it's pretty much a one-trick pony that has very short range and average -- for its range and what it pretty much does, it could be argued as high -- recovery. It doesn't have power and range like Palutena and Wii Fit Trainer's, it doesn't have Palutena's high actives and isn't recoilless like hers, Mr. G&W's shenanigans, it doesn't have Olimar's high actives, and it's not just an average, run of the mill sweep like Mii Brawler's. All Luigi's Dtilt has going for it is low startup and being able to trip. What it has against it is low power, short range, average recovery, average damage, and that it's situational. Compared to Ness's which has also has short range, his has even lower startup, lower recovery, especially if you continually Dtilt, but only has lower damage and I don't know if Ness's can trip that well compared to Luigi's. Ness's would still pretty much be better even if they do similar things which in Ness's case, a grab from Ness is more likely to KO than Luigi nowadays. Basically, what I'm asking is if it's not F-tier, then what does it have over the F-tier and D-tier or even C-tier? And if it's not F-tier, should it really be in C-tier which if it isn't, then shouldn't' it be in at least in D-tier?
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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Compared to Palutena and Wii Fit Trainer's which are in F-tier or Mii Brawler, Mr. G&W, and Olimar, then it would be really situational since it has really short range and doesn't really do anything else -- sweeping is something most Dtilts do which it doesn't do because of its short range. My argument for why Luigi's Dtilt is bottom tier is because while it works well for what it does, it's pretty much a one-trick pony that has very short range and average -- for its range and what it pretty much does, it could be argued as high -- recovery. It doesn't have power and range like Palutena and Wii Fit Trainer's, it doesn't have Palutena's high actives and isn't recoilless like hers, Mr. G&W's shenanigans, it doesn't have Olimar's high actives, and it's not just an average, run of the mill sweep like Mii Brawler's. All Luigi's Dtilt has going for it is low startup and being able to trip. What it has against it is low power, short range, average recovery, average damage, and that it's situational. Compared to Ness's which has also has short range, his has even lower startup, lower recovery, especially if you continually Dtilt, but only has lower damage and I don't know if Ness's can trip that well compared to Luigi's. Ness's would still pretty much be better even if they do similar things which in Ness's case, a grab from Ness is more likely to KO than Luigi nowadays. Basically, what I'm asking is if it's not F-tier, then what does it have over the F-tier and D-tier or even C-tier? And if it's not F-tier, should it really be in C-tier which if it isn't, then shouldn't' it be in at least in D-tier?
Like I harped on in my post, I really can't answer which tier I think it deserves because I would strip all of those tiers down and start anew. But I think I could answer why Luigi's is better than Palutena and WFT. Luigi's is considerably faster in both regards (startup and endlag). Potential to trip is already miles better than the complete lack of followups the other two have. And I neglected to mention it's jab locking and edge slipping. Luigi cannot followup on an air footstool for jab lock setups(he falls too slow, jumps too high), but when he's in position, he can lock for longer than Ftilt would allow thanks to its lower knockback and less endlag. Three Dtilts locks into Up B is about 49% damage which is honestly great for a jab lock combo. Would be better if Dtilt locked long enough to reach ranges where Up B would kill. We're not talking Dtilt of the year, but I know it's better that WFT's which has no reasonable applications like I mentioned before. Palutena's active frame's are interesting, but the move is slow enough that a human player could react in time and...not run into her. And even if they did, nothing would come of it. And cannot rebound just means that if she clanked with another move, her long animation would continue. The other player would gain control faster from a rebound animation, and she's got no quick startup attacks to even attempt to cover herself against a punish. The move would be better if it could clank.
 

Ffamran

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Like I harped on in my post, I really can't answer which tier I think it deserves because I would strip all of those tiers down and start anew. But I think I could answer why Luigi's is better than Palutena and WFT. Luigi's is considerably faster in both regards (startup and endlag). Potential to trip is already miles better than the complete lack of followups the other two have. And I neglected to mention it's jab locking and edge slipping. Luigi cannot followup on an air footstool for jab lock setups(he falls too slow, jumps too high), but when he's in position, he can lock for longer than Ftilt would allow thanks to its lower knockback and less endlag. Three Dtilts locks into Up B is about 49% damage which is honestly great for a jab lock combo. Would be better if Dtilt locked long enough to reach ranges where Up B would kill. We're not talking Dtilt of the year, but I know it's better that WFT's which has no reasonable applications like I mentioned before. Palutena's active frame's are interesting, but the move is slow enough that a human player could react in time and...not run into her. And even if they did, nothing would come of it. And cannot rebound just means that if she clanked with another move, her long animation would continue. The other player would gain control faster from a rebound animation, and she's got no quick startup attacks to even attempt to cover herself against a punish. The move would be better if it could clank.
Can't Luigi just use jab to reset instead of Dtilt? Jab has even lower startup and lower recovery and set knockback. Only problem with jab is the lower damage. Still, jab to charged Side Smash or whatever like Mario does would work fine. Jab, Ftilt, Dtilt... basically, options. WFT's just functions on raw damage and that from her crouch, she's at a low profile which could work for whiff punishing. Problem is the low knockback growth and compared to Luigi's, twice the startup and higher recovery. Palutena's Dtilt is often used for ledge coverage where its high actives shine. Ftilt and Up Smash are the other moves with Up Smash being the better ledge coverage, however, Dtilt's still used.

Still, Luigi's is situational; short range makes its trip not as great when compared to DK or Kirby's longer-ranged Dtilts and resets themselves are situational. There's not much it does and arguably, not much that Palutena and WFT's does which can be said for Mii Brawler, Mr. G&W, and Olimar. Luigi's just falls under situational and underwhelming which Mr. G&W, Olimar, Palutena, and WFT's seem like. My stance, however, is that its short range is what's killing it compared to the others where as great as its low startup, low recovery, its ability to trip, and its reset use, that short-range won't let Luigi do much and puts himself past the range of where most characters can just slap him out.

The tiers themselves are just based on the format used for all other moves. It's likely not to change. Granted, even if a set of moves have a high amount of good ones, that's still average and average is pretty much C-. In other words most of B-tier should be C-tier leaving characters like Ganondorf, Ike, Marth, and Wario in B-. A couple of people in C- right now should be in D-, and everyone in D- minus Mii Brawler, but plus Luigi from C- should move in with F-. Also, there's some in A- that I would drop to B- if this was followed. Granted, the tiers are kind of arbitrary and some of its a bit subjective.

On another note, Mii Brawler's Dtilt, it's pretty much similar to Mario and even Falco's -- same startup, same total frames, but 1 less active raises the recovery by 1, and same knockback as his sour-spots --, but inexplicably ended up in D-tier. Mario's is in C-tier. Mii Brawler should probably be in C-tier too.
 

Vyrnx

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I think Pikachu's dtilt is A tier, it has the same FAF as Diddy's, with surprisingly good range and a high trip percentage. It's a super safe ground poke that can put on a lot of pressure.

Also to address Samus's dtilt, it's actually pretty disgusting. It's massively disjointed and comes out on frame 6 but does 12% damage, puts people up above Samus (and Samus anti landing game is quite good, so oftentimes the opponent gets forced to the ledge after a dtilt), it hits way below the ledge so it's good for two framing, and for what it's worth it does kill with rage, but even if it didn't that wouldn't disqualify it from a tier or let alone b. Frame 6 with the range, disjoint, 12% damage, and positional advantage make the move a ridiculously good midrange option on hit, however the move's drawback is it's FAF which comes into play on block/whiff.

People are looking at dtilts (and some other moves) in terms of only safety on block and combo potential, but there is a lot more to it than that. The range and speed of Samus's dtilt relative to it's damage is amazing, if it were safer on block it would be lol. It's been considered by a lot of people for the last two years to be one of the better dtilts in the game, a tier would not be silly at all (putting it next to Mewtwo's would be absolutely ridiculous but that's another matter), b tier is acceptable, but c tier is not and really the only reason I address Samus's dtilt at all is because of this idea several posters have laid out that the FAF and lack of killing/combo potential put it below 2/3 of the cast, there is a lot more to it than that, and honestly Samus's dtilt being good is nothing new.

Something this thread may discover, just as the last move ranking thread did, is that Samus's moveset is amazing (and this will not be the last time one of Samus's moves is ranked pretty high), so hopefully it's a lesson to this thread, just as it was to the last, that there is a lot more to a character than their moveset. For instance, Samus, Doc, and Ganon have excellent movesets but different variables offset them and keep them from being good characters.
 

TheHypnotoad

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I'm unsure why Little Mac was moved down, his dtilt is easily S tier for reasons that multiple people above me have already explained.
 

Flamegeyser

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I'm unsure why Little Mac was moved down, his dtilt is easily S tier for reasons that multiple people above me have already explained.
Yeah it's just like another Diddy dtilt, in range, speed and everything, except it confirms into even EARLIER kills.
 

Funbot28

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Ok so final update of Down-Tilt coming through:


TL;DR:
:4littlemac:
A -> S
:4wario: B -> A
:4rob: B -> A
:4myfriends: B -> A
:4bowser: C -> B
:4lucario: C -> B
:4shulk: C -> B
:4megaman: B -> C
:4jigglypuff: B -> C
:4ness: A -> C
:4miibrawl: D -> B
:4palutena: F -> D
:4wiifit: F -> D
:4luigi: C -> F

Ok so with that done (srry about some weird placements), I will now cast a poll in the OP of the thread to allow you guys to decide which move category we would continue on from here. The choices will be Jabs, Throws, or continuing Specials. Th poll will last a day so cast your votes a.s.a.p.

Thanks again for contributing!
 

LRodC

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I say Jabs, then specials, and then throws, in that order.
 

Lorde

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Which moves are you talking about? From what I can tell those tiers are pretty well set.
He has a vendetta against Zelda for whatever reason (even going as far to call her overrated lmao), so I assume that's one of the 2

But Zelda's dtilt is actually pretty decent (even if imo A tier is a little high; B tier would have been better but w/e)

People need to learn that moves being on a bad character does not mean the move itself is bad
 
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D

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:4bowser: has such a good jab.

It's intangible, quick overall (frame 7 with low cooldown on hits), first hit can lead into grab and has mix-ups into Bowser Bomb, and is a safe option to get opponents off Bowser and grant stage control. Did I also mention it has killing potential?

:4shulk:'s vanilla jab isn't very impressive due to its sluggishness on its hits (hit 3 comes out frame 12 wat) and it's tendency to whiff on floaties, but with Buster it is pretty dumb. The move connects far better thanks to the reduced knockback Buster grants, 18% off a frame 5 jab is very, VERY good. Not to mention moves like dair and nair lead into it in said Art.
 

jet56

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Little Macs jab is amazing, frame one, nice hitbox, combos into up b for a kill, is a great GTFO tool, gentleman jab does 11%, and sets up into pp utilt at low percents, ftilt at mid, and dash attack at mid high percents. His multijab can be SDIed away or down, but why use that when his gentleman jab is better (except against certain heavys and fast fallers at higher percents, where you could easily do 20%). Probably the best jab in the game. Side note: Jiggs, dedede, samus have ass jabs.
 
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Lord Dio

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Personally, I'd like to go with specials, so I can do a bit of a rantgent (rant tangent) on how bad some specials are that a lot of characters have.

But jab is okay too. Cloud has a nice jab imo.
 

TheGoodGuava

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Little Mac has the best jab hands down. Fastest in the game, kill confirms into up b at later percents, great for mixups, etc. Hes a boxer, what do you expect?

Other notable jabs: ZSS (only really because its frame 1), Fox, Mario, Mega Man, Charizard, Ike, Falcon, Yoshi, Villager, Ryu, Rosa

Worst jabs?

I really want to say Bayonetta but hers does ~20. Its frame 9 though...

I guess Zelda because its frame 15 (what the hell), DDD, I want to say DK because it doesn't link properly but tipper jab is pretty great, Samus is in the same boat, idk who else
 

zeldasmash

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God i miss Link's old jab......

Anyway, Marcina's is pretty good. Falcon's is good. Little Mac's jab is great. King Dedede also has a pretty decent jab. Ryu's is great.
 
D

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God i miss Link's old jab......

Anyway, Marcina's is pretty good. Falcon's is good. Little Mac's jab is great. King Dedede also has a pretty decent jab. Ryu's is great.
Dedede's jab is not decent.

It's frame 10, all of its hits are unsafe on block. Hell, jab 1 is unsafe on HIT and can send opponents behind Dedede, so the move doesn't even properly connect. No, jab 1 and 2 to grab isn't true either.
 

ARGHETH

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Robin's is pretty good. Frame 4, disjointed, combos out of Dthrow at early %s and kills early-ish for a jab. ~ B tier?
Corrin's is...meh. Frame 5 and disjointed, but not really significant otherwise. Likely C tier.
 

Seraphim.

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Roy's jab is pretty good, Frame 5 deals 7.5%/4.8%.

At low percents the move combos into itself, Ftilt, Dtilt, DED or grab, Dthrow also combos into Jab at low percents. Around mid and high percents Roy can start doing Jab > Fair or Jab > Bair which are both fairly good kill setups. Jab > Blazer is also a thing but it has a pretty small percent window and easy to avoid.

Roy also has hitboxes on his body during the move so no need to worry about his Jab possibly whiffing.
 

Nysyr

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But for real, who has the worst Jab? Samus and Lucario would be near the bottom for sure, Falco would be down there if it didn't have good FAF.
 
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Antonykun

Hero of Many Faces
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
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God i miss Link's old jab......
Good news for you, there exists a character in Smash 4 that still has Link's old jab minus the infinite and the best part is that you can dress him up to look like Link too.
:4miisword:
 
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LRodC

Smashing With Mewtwo and Cloud
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Sep 7, 2014
Messages
818
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Philadelphia, PA
NNID
LightningrodC
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Mewtwo's jab is pretty decent. Jab 1 is frame 6 with very little cooldown, and it can mix up into grab, down tilt, or up smash. The rapid jab is decent with good range. I want to say it belongs in B or C tentatively depending on the competition.

S rank jabs most likely include Rosalina, Little Mac, Villager (It's fast, it kill confirms into up air and axe, and it's safe on shield if spaced), Ryu, and Mega Man.
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

Smash Lord
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Apr 13, 2014
Messages
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These jabs can lock/Edge slip for a considerable amount of time :4mario::4bowserjr::4megaman::4ness::4pikachu::4samus::4sonic:(close hit only):4pacman:(close hit only):4olimar:(close hit only)
These can too, but only with close hitboxes that aren't really designed to ever land :4charizard::4dk::4link::4dedede:

These strike me as bad jabs

:4ganondorf: Only debatably safe on shield when spaced (Ganon must spot dodge to avoid a dash grab block punish, nothing else covers him). It has 4 less endlag than Dtilt which reaches further and hits harder. But only 1 to 2 frames safer on block.

:4palutena:Sluggish to come out, and only notable for jab to dash grab. But like most jab to grabs, is easily answered by the victim with double jump, or a jab. What options the victim has is largely MU dependent. Sheik is free to mash A for jab, Mario is free to mash double jump, etc and others have differing options based on current damage because the move has some knockback growth. It's a tricky jab, but not consistent in practice and makes for a poor spacing tool.

:4wario2:considerably slower than Dtilt in regard to startup and endlag. Despite its risk, the reward is 9% damage.

:4samus:It's well known that Jab 1 and 2 don't connect until high %, and only at close range. Jab is generally unsafe on hit until this point. But quick startup and low endlag still allow you to cover yourself and space.

:4diddy: Dtilt is his jab. Jab is only one frame faster and it's wildly unsafe on whiff/block. During a multijab, if you DI to the edge of the attack, the finisher can be escaped with a buffered air dodge, allowing for at least 10 frames advantage for a guaranteed punish. Though to be fair, most rapid jabs in the game have similar "tipper" hitboxes for their multihit that allow for this, Diddy's is the one I have the most success taking advantage of. Patches have allowed the jab 3 without multijab to be performed much easier, but it's unsafe on hit and extremely dubious as a mixup.

:4lucario:Utilt is his jab. Full jab combo deals 4-12% damage depending on aura. 6 startup is fast for him but endlag is unforgiving.

:4metaknight:Dtilt is his jab. Forced jab finisher gives opponent over a second to respond to a whiff. Only good aspect of the move is rapid jab edge cancel into shuttle loop at the ledge. It's cool, but won't kill until about 140% when you initiate the jab, and not really worth it for damage when you need to keep shuttle loop unstaled.

:4mewtwo:Dtilt is his jab. Jab has the same 6 startup with much less range and potential for followups. Since jab 1 knockback isn't fixed, I personally like Jab to Disable at high percents. It's not at all guaranteed, losing to both shield and double jump, but if the opponent panics with air dodge, it's a sure kill. Attempting this is not generally safe since the move requires you to get in just about everybody's shieldgrab range to hit at all. Jab to grab is the more reasonable followup, but still at the mercy of double jumps. Rapid jab is nothing special and is very easy to escape when at high percents due to jab 1 having knockback growth.
 
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