Random thought: Why do we only have two types of jump, short hop and full hop?

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#1
This has been rattling in my head for a while now, and it's totally random, but playing through Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze again (a.k.a, the best platformer ever don't @ me), I noticed that compared to Smash Bros, DKC had more variation in jumping. You had a minimum height like a short hop, and a maximum height for the "full hop", but you could pick any amount of height in between those; a sort of "mid hop" if you will.

Why doesn't Smash Bros have this? Where you simply hold onto the button for longer to get more height, instead of the binary short hop/full hop system. There has to be a reason, right? I'm not even sure how it could be overlooked for so long when we as Smash players like precision movement so much.

And a followup, why don't we have variable height on double jumps? Why is it that we only get one height for those always? This would seriously help out with those situations where you want to hit someone in the middle of your double jump, but have to be forced into extra air time you don't want simply because the game only gives you one double jump height.

Again, ramblings, but why has it been this way for so long when this more precise method of jump not only is clearly better, but more intuitive overall?
 

Luigifan18

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#2
The variable jump height you bring up is common to a lot of platformers — Mario and Sonic games, for instance.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#5
That feature works better in platformers where jumping precision is much more essential and the main focus is stage traversal, but in a fighting game you would be adding an unnecessary layer of complexity that could be potentially get in the way of the fighting. Having only short hop and full hop is better rather than having to micromanage your jump height when you have to focus on dealing with your opponent.
 
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lucasla

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#6
I think that would add a lot of unpredictability that for some game design decision, they opted to not have it on the game. Maybe they tried the jump to work that way at some point of development of the game and concluded that it simply wasn't good that way for the Smash gameplay.
 
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Sean²

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#7
If there's not variable jump height then I haven't noticed. I can move exactly as precisely as I need to. Can you not?
Try doing it with Falco. His full hop goes much higher than his short hop. You'll see pretty fast you have no control over your vertical jump height beyond the two options.
 

JiggyNinja

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#8
That feature works better in platformers where jumping precision is much more essential and the main focus is stage traversal, but in a fighting game you would be adding an unnecessary layer of complexity that could be potentially get in the way of the fighting. Having only short hop and full hop is better rather than having to micromanage your jump height when you have to focus on dealing with your opponent.
I'm in complete agreement with this. Rather than throwing everything and the kitchen sink into your game as a possibility, it's important to decide what's important and pare the control scheme down to that. If you aren't careful you could end up with something ridiculous like Melee's L-canceling nonsense that adds significant extra execution cost for no good reason.

Smash's jumping system is already a major enhancement over the jumping traditional fighters have, reflecting the massively increased emphasis that Smash has on the air game due to platforms and being able to be knocked off the stage. Games like Street Fighter and Pokken don't have anything near the air game that Smash does.

Platformers like Mario and Sonic might have much more diverse and precise jumping options, but they compensate for that by having much more shallow combat options. They take different points on the tradeoff than Smash does because their games emphasize different things.
 
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#9
I'm in complete agreement with this. Rather than throwing everything and the kitchen sink into your game as a possibility, it's important to decide what's important and pare the control scheme down to that. If you aren't careful you could end up with something ridiculous like Melee's L-canceling nonsense that adds significant extra execution cost for no good reason.

Smash's jumping system is already a major enhancement over the jumping traditional fighters have, reflecting the massively increased emphasis that Smash has on the air game due to platforms and being able to be knocked off the stage. Games like Street Fighter and Pokken don't have anything near the air game that Smash does.

Platformers like Mario and Sonic might have much more diverse and precise jumping options, but they compensate for that by having much more shallow combat options. They take different points on the tradeoff than Smash does because their games emphasize different things.
While you are definitely correct in not bloating things, I bring this possibility up because of the workaround we use being rather limiting. In Melee and a lesser extent Ultimate, if your jump will overshoot a platform that you want to land on as soon as possible, you will have to airdodge towards it. This means you are committed to the airdodge, which in both games means certain problems, all to compensate for no median between short hop and full hop. Now people have to treat that median of jump as a sort of "tech" when it never had to be and could've just been something banally done like in other platformers. And as I said, it gives a very rudimentary and easy to understand freedom of mobility that not only has been missing in Smash, but would help everyone, no matter the skill level.

The only problem that makes sense that I've seen here is the face button being a jump button can cause some issues with timing attacks during a jump's ascent. In that case, just make the jump button a shoulder button. Just because there is platforming in Smash doesn't mean it has to mimic all platformer controls.
 

Xelrog

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#10
And as I said, it gives a very rudimentary and easy to understand freedom of mobility that not only has been missing in Smash, but would help everyone, no matter the skill level.
No, it would significantly hurt players who have mastered the movement system as it exists now. Being able to know exactly how high you're going to move based on your input is critically important for very precise characters and combos.

It's the same reason I use the D-pad when playing Crash Bandicoot--there's no abiguity. There's no chance I'll slide the stick a little bit off center by accident. Up is up, period. For some games, that matters.
 

JiggyNinja

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#11
While you are definitely correct in not bloating things, I bring this possibility up because of the workaround we use being rather limiting. In Melee and a lesser extent Ultimate, if your jump will overshoot a platform that you want to land on as soon as possible, you will have to airdodge towards it. This means you are committed to the airdodge, which in both games means certain problems, all to compensate for no median between short hop and full hop. Now people have to treat that median of jump as a sort of "tech" when it never had to be and could've just been something banally done like in other platformers. And as I said, it gives a very rudimentary and easy to understand freedom of mobility that not only has been missing in Smash, but would help everyone, no matter the skill level.

The only problem that makes sense that I've seen here is the face button being a jump button can cause some issues with timing attacks during a jump's ascent. In that case, just make the jump button a shoulder button. Just because there is platforming in Smash doesn't mean it has to mimic all platformer controls.
Smash is much faster paced than your typical platformer, with a lot more going on. Platformer Sonic and Mario games both have much more floaty jumps than most of the Smash cast, giving you more time to fine-tune the exact power of a jump.

For a fighting game, Smash already has a ridiculous amount of freedom of mobility. Adding even more on top of that (especially with such precise execution requirements) is going pretty far into diminishing returns. and I wouldn't even consider it a problem that there are some platforms you can't perfectly jump to without airdodging. Not everything should be possible for all characters. If you have to airdodge to get to the platform quickly, that's a value judgement you need to make: is the benefit worth the cost? If it's not, do something else. Cost/benefit valuations like that are the heart of every PvP game.

It's already enough of a pain in the *** that Ken and Ryu overload three different strength levels onto their attack buttons. There's a limit to how much dexterity most people have.
No, it would significantly hurt players who have mastered the movement system as it exists now. Being able to know exactly how high you're going to move based on your input is critically important for very precise characters and combos.

It's the same reason I use the D-pad when playing Crash Bandicoot--there's no abiguity. There's no chance I'll slide the stick a little bit off center by accident. Up is up, period. For some games, that matters.
That's also why I keep nagging my sister to use the D-pad in Pokken; it's what the game was designed for. Playing with an analog stick in Pokken would be like playing with the D-pad in Smash.
 
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#12
On a side note, if they were to add variable jump heights to Smash Ultimate, since every character has a 3 frame jumpsquat, you’d only have 3 height options other than full hop and getting any of them in particular (other than the one that’d still have the short hop macros tied to it) would be a frame perfect input, which would make it especially inconsistent. They could increase jumpsquats back to what they were before Ultimate, but, as aforementioned, the inconsistency would probably make it not be worth it. (Unless they made in exclusive to a control option maybe so that it doesn’t interfere with most players but can be used by those who really want to master it, but IDK.)
 

TheCJBrine

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#13
I think it's fine, you can fall faster by flicking the control stick down; I wouldn't be against varied jump height, however, but I don't really find it necessary.
 
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#14
I’m going to be the odd man out and say that I think this is a no-brainer and it baffles me why varying jump height isn’t already a thing. It’s really easy to see why this needs to happen if you play a character like Falco who has a really tiny short hop and a massive full hop.

The only problem with this is that it wouldn’t mesh well with the universal three-frame jumpsquats in this game. Other than that, I see no reason for it not to exist.
 

Luigifan18

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#15
I'm in complete agreement with this. Rather than throwing everything and the kitchen sink into your game as a possibility, it's important to decide what's important and pare the control scheme down to that. If you aren't careful you could end up with something ridiculous like Melee's L-canceling nonsense that adds significant extra execution cost for no good reason.

Smash's jumping system is already a major enhancement over the jumping traditional fighters have, reflecting the massively increased emphasis that Smash has on the air game due to platforms and being able to be knocked off the stage. Games like Street Fighter and Pokken don't have anything near the air game that Smash does.

Platformers like Mario and Sonic might have much more diverse and precise jumping options, but they compensate for that by having much more shallow combat options. They take different points on the tradeoff than Smash does because their games emphasize different things.
I tend to appreciate allowing every button to have some sort of purpose, to be honest.
 
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#16
This is something that I'm waiting for since the first time I was introduced to the Smash series.
As a fan of 2D platformers, this jump thing always annoyed me and forced me to do a lot of unwanted actions, because I couldn't optimize my jump arc.
I think Smash would only benefit of a variable jump system and I don't believe to what some people say about it creating more problems.

On a side note, Kirby Fightrers (that Kirby themed fighting game slighty based on Smash) already uses variable jumps and it works very nicely... the game is unbalanced but not because of that.
 

JiggyNinja

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#17
I tend to appreciate allowing every button to have some sort of purpose, to be honest.
What does that have to do with anything in the post of mine that you quoted? Or to this entire thread for that matter? The topic under discussion is about changing how an existing function works, not adding a new function. There would be no changes to the button layout.
 

Gryphon827

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#18
You have a good point tbh. There would be a lot more things possible if you were able to do a mid-height jump.

unfortunately that one weeb mod is probably gonna take down this thread for being a "rant thread" (even though there really isn't anything wrong with rants, as they are still talking about the game.)
 
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#19
You have a good point tbh. There would be a lot more things possible if you were able to do a mid-height jump.

unfortunately that one weeb mod is probably gonna take down this thread for being a "rant thread" (even though there really isn't anything wrong with rants, as they are still talking about the game.)
This is a rant? Huh. I guess I didn't know I was supposed to be ranting. XD
 
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#22
I think that this feature would make the game simpler and not more complex.
Currently, we have a small frame window to activate the low jump, and if we miss it by a fraction of second, the game will punish us by making us vulnerable (wrong move in the wrong situation, forced to stay mid air for longer); this is especially bad on floaty characters.

With a variable jump, even if you miss the frame window to do the lowest jump possible, you would perform a jump that's only slighty higher than the lowest possible, without affecting your game too much.
So, if anything, the actual system is more similar to the "L canceling nonsense" than a variable jump would.

The 3 frames thing is not an issue, because with the implementation of a variable jump system, the way you control the jump would be different. Platformers with variable jump will keep checking your input even after you leave the ground; this means that the frame window would be longer than those 3 frames we have now.

The only problem I can see is related to online: what you currently can manage with one or a couple of boolean variables, with a variable jump would be managed by an int or even a float variable, that would mean a bigger amount of data shared during an online match that potentially could translate into more lag... but I'm not sure about this, it's still just a number and it's possible that the way it would affect the lag would be so minor that we wouldn't even notice.

I would like this to be implemented during double jumps too... EDIT: Never mind, I removed a part because I checked the game and I was wrong about that.
I think a variable jump system would make the game less technical, less frustrating and more fun, with the addition of allowing for more precision without affecting the controls' complexity (a lot of casual games use it, nobody ever complained; the Kirby series is very combat oriented and has complex movesets but still uses variable jumps).
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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#23
That would remove some consistency in your aerial inputs though. With the current system you know the height your character can attack while short hopping and full hopping. The new short hop mechanics make it easier to perform aerials out of a short hop without overextending into a full hop. I don't think it would be a good idea to add a variable that changes my jump height, forcing me to manage my jumps more precisely when I'm attacking or spacing towards my opponent.

Kirby may be more combat oriented than most platformers, but is not as opponent focused as a fighting game. You don't have to worry that much about spacing when most of the time you can wail on your AI opponent and abuse invincibility frames on moves. Smash isn't a 2D side scroller but a fighting platformer; other fighting games understand this as well which is why they have set jump heights. It's a valid design choice.
 

JiggyNinja

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#24
The only problem I can see is related to online: what you currently can manage with one or a couple of boolean variables, with a variable jump would be managed by an int or even a float variable, that would mean a bigger amount of data shared during an online match that potentially could translate into more lag... but I'm not sure about this, it's still just a number and it's possible that the way it would affect the lag would be so minor that we wouldn't even notice.
It would not affect lag at all. It would be pure madness to make a multiplayer game constantly synchronize all of its internal information all of the time. Both of the games are identical, so identical inputs will produce identical outputs. You just need to synchronize their initial state (such as all the RNG seeds and player starting positions), then trade controller inputs in a way that keeps them synchronized between the two games. The two games will take the same inputs and independently interpret them to execute identical copies of the same match.

Replays do the same thing, that's why all your old replays get invalidated when there are any changes (no matter how small) to the properties of a character. It's not saving all of the information of the game, it's saving the initial state and all inputs and using the game engine to recreate the game instead of "replaying" it in the way people normally understand the word.
 
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#25
FYI, Smash 64 had this, but it was removed in Melee onward. Pretty sure the developers made a conscious decision to limit it to 2 options.
 
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#26
FYI, Smash 64 had this, but it was removed in Melee onward. Pretty sure the developers made a conscious decision to limit it to 2 options.
Really?!? I never noticed this... I should play some Smash 64 and try myself how it feels like.
(Last time I played Smash 64 was probably more than a decade ago).

EDIT:
Actually, I tested it on the Kirby stage with Kirby, Mario and Link.

Smash 64 still seems to use the 2 jumps mechanics of all the other Smash games, with the addition of another super-unintuitive gimmick.
If you do a jump while moving backward, the animation is different and the height is sligty lower. It's especially noticeable with Mario, because he does a backflip.
Though it's still a 2 heights jump, no way to alter it from what I have tested. At the end, you have a total of 4 jump heights (2 of which are only accessible by doing a specific combination of input with the right timing).

If there is some code for a variable jump in the source of the game, for sure I can't notice it in the actual gameplay.
 
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#27
Really?!? I never noticed this... I should play some Smash 64 and try myself how it feels like.
(Last time I played Smash 64 was probably more than a decade ago).

EDIT:
Actually, I tested it on the Kirby stage with Kirby, Mario and Link.

Smash 64 still seems to use the 2 jumps mechanics of all the other Smash games, with the addition of another super-unintuitive gimmick.
If you do a jump while moving backward, the animation is different and the height is sligty lower. It's especially noticeable with Mario, because he does a backflip.
Though it's still a 2 heights jump, no way to alter it from what I have tested. At the end, you have a total of 4 jump heights (2 of which are only accessible by doing a specific combination of input with the right timing).

If there is some code for a variable jump in the source of the game, for sure I can't notice it in the actual gameplay.
Looked it up again, and saw this:
"The jump physics of SSB are significantly less understood than later games due to extra complexity in the data. It is currently believed that there are two values involved in a normal jump: a base jump force, and an additional jump force based on how much height is given to the Control Stick. Until this is more elaborated, only the typical maximum jump force is listed here.

The calculation of short hop jump force is currently unknown."
 
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#28
Looked it up again, and saw this:
"The jump physics of SSB are significantly less understood than later games due to extra complexity in the data. It is currently believed that there are two values involved in a normal jump: a base jump force, and an additional jump force based on how much height is given to the Control Stick. Until this is more elaborated, only the typical maximum jump force is listed here.

The calculation of short hop jump force is currently unknown."
So does this only apply when you jump using the analog stick then?

I didn't try honestly... anyway that's much more complex and less intuitive/user friendly than what this thread is suggesting for... I can see why they removed this element in the sequels.

Anyway the back-jump also exists because I tried it myself and it works as I described.
 

MG_3989

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#29
Because it's a fighting game and not a platformer and having variable jump heights in a fighting game would greatly hurt consistency and take away from the games competitive viability

It would make the game inconsistent which isn't good in a competitive multiplayer game
 
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#31
Because it's a fighting game and not a platformer and having variable jump heights in a fighting game would greatly hurt consistency and take away from the games competitive viability

It would make the game inconsistent which isn't good in a competitive multiplayer game
As much as I disagree with this, I still like this comment because you realized how the game would change with a variable jump.
I think I get what you mean by "inconsistency".
It's not about becoming more complex, it's about becoming more free.
Being free to change the height of the jump means that each jump will be less predictable.
This would change the competitive scene a lot, because you can't memorize combos and make preemptive strategies according to that, the game would change depending on the opponent's reaction and every approach will be different.

But I don't think it would be "not competitive". At least, I think that a real life boxe fighter can move his punches with freedom wherever he wants... Boxe isn't less competitive because you can't predict the movement of the opponent according to a scripted animation and frame data.
It's less technical maybe... that's not correct either, because I'm sure that every sport is very technical too, including boxe. I think the right word is more natural.

Personally, I think that there is absolutely no way this can be defended:
And this does not happen only in andventure modes, it happens in some stages with complex layouts too.

To be fair, it's both.
Yeah it's definitely an hybrid, and occasionally some single player modes based on platforming are part of the series; those would benefit of a variable jump.
 
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#32
It's not about becoming more complex, it's about becoming more free.
Being free to change the height of the jump means that each jump will be less predictable.
This would change the competitive scene a lot, because you can't memorize combos and make preemptive strategies according to that, the game would change depending on the opponent's reaction and every approach will be different.
This is exactly it. It's about freedom of movement. And honestly, memorizing combos should be something to be driven away from, not chased or maintained. Another reason why high DI is only a good thing.
 

JiggyNinja

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#33
Personally, I think that there is absolutely no way this can be defended:
I'm curious why you think that can't be defended. I can think of a few easily.

1) It's an optional side room. In pretty much every game that has something like that, they'll usually have a more difficult or obscure challenge than the main story path.

2) It's a platforming segment specifically designed to challenge your double jump timing. It succeeds at exactly what it was designed for.

3) It only presents one platforming challenge, so reattempts are very fast. There's room for this to be made even more difficult and still be a reasonable challenge. It's not like you have to jump up 10 platforms this way and start from the beginning each time you fail. The GIF shows 3 attempts, and those are done in less than 10 seconds.

4) Scrub was trying to style too much by Side-B'ing into the space, when a diagonal Up-B would have put him right into the pocket much easier.

If you don't like platforming that doesn't mean the platforming is badly designed.
 
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#34
I'm curious why you think that can't be defended. I can think of a few easily.

1) It's an optional side room. In pretty much every game that has something like that, they'll usually have a more difficult or obscure challenge than the main story path.

2) It's a platforming segment specifically designed to challenge your double jump timing. It succeeds at exactly what it was designed for.

3) It only presents one platforming challenge, so reattempts are very fast. There's room for this to be made even more difficult and still be a reasonable challenge. It's not like you have to jump up 10 platforms this way and start from the beginning each time you fail. The GIF shows 3 attempts, and those are done in less than 10 seconds.

4) Scrub was trying to style too much by Side-B'ing into the space, when a diagonal Up-B would have put him right into the pocket much easier.

If you don't like platforming that doesn't mean the platforming is badly designed.
What I'm showing is an issue with the jump mechanics, not with the level design. Situations like that constantly happen, depending on the place and the character used, in every part of the game, including the regular fighting stages. I think I'm pretty good at platformers and I finished a lot of very hard games such as Super Meat Boy and others, regardless I often find myself in situations like that one in the gif, because the jump mechanics just don't work well for platforming.
And that's not good in a game where platforming is one of the main elements.

This type of jump only works on flat stages such as Final Destination or omega stages; if you use a more complex layout it becomes an obstacle.

By the way, I doubt the "scrub" is trying to look cool; the person who's playing is just trying to finish the game mode as fast as possible to upload it on youtube and not annoy people who will watch it. The fact that he/she/? needed 3 attempts to do such a basic jump speaks itself.
The room is not meant to challenge you, there are no threats in it. It's also possible that with Diddy the room would have been a lot simpler because his jump is different. I think it's just bad design.
 

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#35
We have short and full hop because we don't need more than that. Simple.
 
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#36
I'm curious why you think that can't be defended. I can think of a few easily.
Usually the easier you think of a defense for something, the worse it ends up being.

1) It's an optional side room. In pretty much every game that has something like that, they'll usually have a more difficult or obscure challenge than the main story path.

2) It's a platforming segment specifically designed to challenge your double jump timing. It succeeds at exactly what it was designed for.

3) It only presents one platforming challenge, so reattempts are very fast. There's room for this to be made even more difficult and still be a reasonable challenge. It's not like you have to jump up 10 platforms this way and start from the beginning each time you fail. The GIF shows 3 attempts, and those are done in less than 10 seconds.

4) Scrub was trying to style too much by Side-B'ing into the space, when a diagonal Up-B would have put him right into the pocket much easier.

If you don't like platforming that doesn't mean the platforming is badly designed.
And these don't sound like defenses as much as excuses.

First one is irrelevant because platforming like this happens all across the game, not just the optional side rooms. Not sure why you bring that up.

Second one is just untrue, considering there is literally nothing that can kill you in the room. It's a "challenge" in the same way walking down the street is versus driving down the street. Sure, one takes longer and expends more energy, but you will inevitably get to your destination either way, you just want to take the path of most resistance for some reason.

Third one directly contradicts the second point.

Fourth is simply excusing the poor jumping mechanics because the task would've been easier if they could just finely control their jumping without requiring the use of a move with lag to fine tune their jump.
 

JiggyNinja

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#37
What I'm showing is an issue with the jump mechanics, not with the level design.
Levels are designed around the game mechanics. The two are inseparable.
Situations like that constantly happen, depending on the place and the character used, in every part of the game, including the regular fighting stages. I think I'm pretty good at platformers and I finished a lot of very hard games such as Super Meat Boy and others, regardless I often find myself in situations like that one in the gif, because the jump mechanics just don't work well for platforming.
And that's not good in a game where platforming is one of the main elements.
But it's not a platforming game. It's a platform fighter.

By the way, I doubt the "scrub" is trying to look cool; the person who's playing is just trying to finish the game mode as fast as possible to upload it on youtube and not annoy people who will watch it. The fact that he/she/? needed 3 attempts to do such a basic jump speaks itself.
The room is not meant to challenge you, there are no threats in it. It's also possible that with Diddy the room would have been a lot simpler because his jump is different. I think it's just bad design.
Challenge is not synonymous with danger. It's very hard to die in many of the rooms in Portal. That doesn't mean the game isn't presenting you with a challenge.

Those 3 attempts are completely reasonable, and you can see a good progression there of the player figuring out the challenge. In the first attempt, they jump headfirst into the block that is deliberately positioned to stop the easy option of double jumping at the earliest optimum time (peak of the first jump). Player changed tactic and tried to Side-B to the ledge, but there's no ledge to grab on to. Finally player tried what is probably the "intended" method of clearing it, a delayed double jump and made it onto the edge.

I don't know what part of that you don't consider to be a good challenge. It looks well designed to me, and a good fit for Smash's mechanics.
Usually the easier you think of a defense for something, the worse it ends up being.



And these don't sound like defenses as much as excuses.
That works for criticisms too.

First one is irrelevant because platforming like this happens all across the game, not just the optional side rooms. Not sure why you bring that up.
I'm not the one that brought it up, Iko MattOrr is the one that posted the room from Subspace Emissary.

Second one is just untrue, considering there is literally nothing that can kill you in the room. It's a "challenge" in the same way walking down the street is versus driving down the street. Sure, one takes longer and expends more energy, but you will inevitably get to your destination either way, you just want to take the path of most resistance for some reason.
See "Challenge is not synonymous with danger..." above. As for wanting to "take the path of most resistance", that criticism applies to literally every game ever created in the history of ever. Seriously, just tell me one game that gives you a path of least resistance to the end. If there is then it probably sucks.

Third one directly contradicts the second point.
How?

Point #2 says that the room presents a platforming challenge.
Point #3 says that it presents only one quick challenge.

Where is the contradiction?

Fourth is simply excusing the poor jumping mechanics because the task would've been easier if they could just finely control their jumping without requiring the use of a move with lag to fine tune their jump.
Games are not supposed to be as easy as possible. Games are supposed to derive fun from overcoming their challenges. Do you also complain when an FPS game doesn't auto-aim for you? Or when an RPG requires to carefully manage your mana, item use, type advantages, buffs, and healing to take down a boss instead of just giving you a OHKO spell?

Complaining that Smash's mechanics make that jump hard is like ******** that a jigsaw puzzle doesn't tell you where it's pieces are supposed to go. THAT'S THE ENTIRE DAMN POINT!!!! IT'S DESIGNED THAT WAY ON PURPOSE!

If you don't like the way particular challenges are designed that's fine. But you too seem to be going way too far in the other direction and are arguing that games should never present any sort of obstacle or challenge to the player at all. I don't know how you can both be missing the point so badly.
 
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
538
#38
Games are not supposed to be as easy as possible. Games are supposed to derive fun from overcoming their challenges. Do you also complain when an FPS game doesn't auto-aim for you? Or when an RPG requires to carefully manage your mana, item use, type advantages, buffs, and healing to take down a boss instead of just giving you a OHKO spell?

Complaining that Smash's mechanics make that jump hard is like ******** that a jigsaw puzzle doesn't tell you where it's pieces are supposed to go. THAT'S THE ENTIRE DAMN POINT!!!! IT'S DESIGNED THAT WAY ON PURPOSE!

If you don't like the way particular challenges are designed that's fine. But you too seem to be going way too far in the other direction and are arguing that games should never present any sort of obstacle or challenge to the player at all. I don't know how you can both be missing the point so badly.
This particular point makes it seem like you thought I wanted little challenge EVERYWHERE in the game. I don't know how you got to that. I simply said traversal across the level should be easier, not that the level itself is easier.

Going back to Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze (and Returns too), DK moves very precisely wherever I want him to. In this way, the mechanics are solid and freeing for the player to traverse any platform and any level they wish in a natural fashion. Does that mean that due to this ease of precision in movement, the levels of the game are easy? Hell no.

Now imagine instead of precise jumping, DK jumped as rigidly as Smash. Would the game be harder? Most certainly, since doing precise jumps is no longer an option. Would it be better designed? Most certainly not, because the levels are not designed for the movement DK is doing. You touched upon this in an earlier point in your comment. Unfortunately, the next step of adapting to this newfound rigidity in movement would therefore to make the levels themselves less interesting, because the level design has to now compensate for the handicap of movement you've placed on DK.

Now migrate this to Smash Bros, and it should be clear at this point that the movement in Smash Bros is not conducive to a good amount of freedom of traversal throughout a level or a stage, and thus the level design MUST become more rigid due to it. Except, in the Subspace Emissary and on some platforms on some stages, they don't actually conform to this rigidity of movement, and thus you have movement physics that are mismatched with the level/stage design, which ends up with situations like that Fox in the bonus room in Subspace.

The best solution, as I see it, is to have more free movement to match the more free level/stage design of Smash Bros, if only a little, rather than have all level design be subjugated to this rigidity in jump height, since that will inevitably lead to less interesting stages/levels.

And I bet your next argument would be it getting in the way of the fighting aspect, but it really doesn't. These variable jump heights are not random, they would only get in the way of attacking if jump and attacks were on face buttons at the same time, which is easily fixable, and even if they somehow messed up combos due to needing to be so pixel precise that doing a jump then attack at 90% jump height instead of 100% will completely ruin your combo, I would posit that that game's combo system is EXTREMELY rigid regardless of how the jumps worked, and that rigid combos are not something to be chased after or maintained in a fighting game with as free movement as Smash Bros.
 

JiggyNinja

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
159
#39
Ultimately, this is something that doesn't have a right or wrong answer. There are advantages and disadvantages to both discrete and continuously variable jump heights, so it ultimately comes down to which way the developers decided to go.

And I bet your next argument would be it getting in the way of the fighting aspect, but it really doesn't.
Donkey Kong Country is a platformer. Jumping (and other types of movement) is basically the entire point of the game. That means your basic movement abilities (like jumping) are literally the most important part of the game.

Smash Bros. is a platform fighter. Platforming is of secondary importance relative to fighting. That doesn't mean it's pointless to improve jumping, but it means that the improvements will have less benefit than the same improvements in a pure platformer because of the different emphasis the two types of games place on different elements.

Continuously variable jump heights would improve some aspects of the game. I'm not disputing that. It also comes with a cost because it requires more input precision than just having two fixed jumps. So the important question is is the improvement worth the extra cost? I prefer the reduced input precision that discrete jump heights allow, but I'm also a casual player.
 

Kankato

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Messages
215
Location
SoCal
#40
Are you familiar with the King of Fighters series? It's a 2d game with short hops and full hops. Sakurai was (and is) very good at KoF so he probably built elements of the ground game around 2 jump heights. I imagine balancing that with a fast fall option would be much easier to manage.
 
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