Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar should both be banned

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Mario bros is a bad stage competitively and I hope none of you are seriously advocating for it to be legal.

Seconding this.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I advocate every stage for legality.

 

[T-block]

Mario bros is a bad stage competitively and I hope none of you are seriously advocating for it to be legal.

This statement makes an unsafe assumption about the definition of "competitively".

I am completely honest in saying I believe the stage is competitive.

 

[Dre89]

Even if it is competitve, it deviates so far away from the norm in competitve brawl that it requires a vastly different skill set.

If you think something like that should be legal, then by that logic stamina mode matches could be a CP, seeing as they're technically competitive, just deviate from the competitve norm.

It's conceivable that player X, who comfortably beats player Y on pretty much every stage, could then go and lose to Y on Mario Bros. seeing as the skill set required is different. This is situation is far more conceivable with Mario Bros. than any other currently legal stage.

Basically, being technically competitve shouldn't be the only requirement for legality. It should also not devaite too far from the competitve norm and the standard skill set required.

 

[infiniteV115]

I toil to understand why Japes, Port Town, and Norfair are banned when Brinstar is legal.

I hope you're not trying to argue that Brinstar should be banned because those stages are banned. I'd prefer it if you were saying that those should be legal if Brinstar is legal.

The acid, as on-a-timer and avoidable as it may be, still takes up the entire stage except for a single small platform at certain points forcing characters into an aerial confrontation they might not have otherwise had.

Yeah, that's the idea. Is there something wrong with a stage not being completely static?
The moving platform on Smashville forces falling characters into a situation they might not have otherwise had, had the platform been somewhere else at the time. The situation being if they chose to airdodge/do an attack at a certain height while falling, they land on the platform rather than reaching the main stage.
The platform, "as on-a-timer and avoidable as it may be, still" forces you into a situation with fewer options. YOU GOT A PROBLEM WIT MAH HOMIE DA SV PLATFORM?

It's just not good design for a competitive stage. We've banned stages for much less pervasive things.

In other words, "other stages that are banned have been banned based on criteria similar to some of the elements on Brinstar. Therefore, Brinstar should be banned.", correct? Is that what you're trying to say?
If so, it's a faulty argument. A better one would be "other stages that should be/deserve to be banned have been banned based on criteria similar to some of the elements on Brinstar. Therefore, Brinstar should be banned." Then you'd have to go and explain why those "other stages" should, indeed, be banned.
The point I'm trying to make here is that it's important to make a distinction between what is banned and what should be/deserves to be banned. Doesn't make sense to say that Brinstar should be banned because Norfair is banned (just an example, not accusing you of this) when you don't even agree that Norfair should be banned in the first place. Instead, you should be complaining about Norfair and trying to legalize it.

I like the stage element of brawl because it allows you to use platforms and terrain to a tactical advantage. The acid on brinstar and things like it don't really achieve that as much as they achieve tightly-compressed moments of strategic singularity in which after you are hit into the air, all you can do is repeatedly attempt to airdodge into a platform 3 squirtles in length until the acid goes down again. Is it predictable? Yes. Is it easy to avoid touching the acid? Arguably (but if you can show me a match on Brinstar where they avoid the acid the whole game I'll give you a cookie). I just don't see how either of those things are the issue. I don't really understand how stage selectiveness got to a point where we pick stages based on whether or not we can predict them. That's a factor, but I don't really understand how it became the factor.

The lava is both predictable and avoidable, and it doesn't do a ****ton of damage/knockback, nor does it affect gameplay for a large amount (not even collectively) of time. Therefore, there is nothing 'wrong' with the lava, so to speak.
There is nothing wrong with the lava (and as far as I can tell, you don't have a problem with any other aspect of the stage), therefore Brinstar is (and should be) legal.
Let me know if you have a problem with my premise.

It's not OK to pretend we have some kind of standard when we ban certain stages just 'cuz. If you want Brinstar legal because of a criteria that everyone else accepts but me, I can deal with that, but I think we should have a serious talk about other stages that have been banned over things that Brinstar still gets away with.

Bold-I like this mentality (even though you would HAVE to deal with it ), hopefully you'll learn to accept it soon.

Underlined - Good.

Edit: Sorry to be a grammar nazi, but

If you want Brinstar legal because of a criteria...

NO!
BAD SUPERMODEL! BAD!
Criteria = plural
Criterion = singular
It's "a criterion", not "a criteria".

Double edit: Since it has been announced that MK is going to be banned, shouldn't this thread be closed soon? I mean, the entire OP was saying that these stages should be banned because MK2gud, but with the ban coming...the OP is entirely irrelevant now. Is the thread being kept open for discussion? I think discussion regarding these stages' legality should now take place in the UR thread.

 

[ぱみゅ]

@Dre: is competitive by definition, because you can compete on it.

Is not an argument for its legality in a regular tournament, though.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Even if it is competitve, it deviates so far away from the norm in competitve brawl that it requires a vastly different skill set.

I don't mind different. I mind lesser. Almost all of any given character's moveset becomes worthless on it, and that is what I take umbrage with.

 

[DMG]

That's because the overcentralizing strategy involving the hazards/items dominates gameplay.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Mario Bros. is definitely competitive.

Whether it should be legal or not completely depends on the individual's ban criteria.

 

[Kantrip]

Mario Bros is competitive like Duelist is competitive.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Nah, Mario Bros. is way more competitive than Duelist.

Duelist is just mashing shield, it is way too simple to be as competitive as Mario Bros.

 

[DMG]

Duelist is much deeper than Mario Bros. The only thing you are required to do is survive. Huehuehuehuehue

 

[T-block]

Even if it is competitve, it deviates so far away from the norm in competitve brawl that it requires a vastly different skill set.

If you think something like that should be legal, then by that logic stamina mode matches could be a CP, seeing as they're technically competitive, just deviate from the competitve norm.

It's conceivable that player X, who comfortably beats player Y on pretty much every stage, could then go and lose to Y on Mario Bros. seeing as the skill set required is different. This is situation is far more conceivable with Mario Bros. than any other currently legal stage.

Basically, being technically competitve shouldn't be the only requirement for legality. It should also not devaite too far from the competitve norm and the standard skill set required.

I agree completely.

Nah, Mario Bros. is way more competitive than Duelist.

Duelist is just mashing shield, it is way too simple to be as competitive as Mario Bros.

I don't think Duelist has been explored far enough for us to make that call xP

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That usually what I mean with it when I say it's not competitive, it is with what you gotta do to win, but it doesn't fit well with our current norms in a ruleset.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Then we are finally in agreement about the stage, it seems.

 

[Pony]

Nah, Mario Bros. is way more competitive than Duelist.

Duelist is just mashing shield, it is way too simple to be as competitive as Mario Bros.

i also mash down b, soft on the control stick so that i don't fast fall

 

[infiniteV115]

You can survive with the C-4 even if you fastfall, you just have to time it right. Just buffer it and you'll be good.
You can also just press down-b while you're rising (from the cypher), then press B again while you're still holding down.

 

[Pony]

You can also just press down-b while you're rising (from the cypher), then press B again while you're still holding down.

see, duelist is hella depthy.
look at all those advanced techniques.

 

[Ghostbone]

Psshhh
Duelist ATs are nothing compared to Mario Bros ATs.

 

[Ussi]

Ganon can take two stocks at once with a glitch on RC (highly situational)



if only it wasn't Ganon this would actually mean bad news for RC

 

[Ghostbone]

Ganon can take two stocks at once with a glitch on RC (highly situational)



if only it wasn't Ganon this would actually mean bad news for RC

If only it wasn't majorly situational and didn't require your opponent to be a ****** to pull off you mean?

 

[Pony]

so what does mario bros. have to offer in the AT department?

 

[ぱみゅ]

so what does mario bros. have to offer in the AT department?

Really? I mean.... REALLY???
For starters: Glidetoss, timed z-drops, timed reflectors (some chars), Airdodge-cancel toss, and items manipulation/position. Just the first ones to jump on the top of my mind.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Invisible item glitch (still gotta work out how to trigger it, lol) too.

 

[Kantrip]

Really? I mean.... REALLY???
For starters: Glidetoss, timed z-drops, timed reflectors (some chars), Airdodge-cancel toss, and items manipulation/position. Just the first ones to jump on the top of my mind.

You mean how Diddy plays already?

What unique AT's does it have?

 

[Player-1]

diddy mains: advancing mario bros. metagame since 2008

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You mean how Diddy plays already?

What unique AT's does it have?

What unique ATs does Duelist have?

That's what I thought.

 

[Kantrip]

Are you trying to prove my point for me or is there a miscommunication?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What exactly was your point?

 

[Kantrip]

Mario Bros is competitive like Duelist is competitive.

That Mario Bros is competitive like Duelist is competitive.

Not very.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Possessing a unique AT has nothing to do with competitiveness.

Try harder.

 

[Kantrip]

Not with competitiveness, no. The semantics of this word are argued enough, I'd prefer if we could avoid that discussion.

Depth-wise, however, both Duelist and Mario Bros are in similar boats. Duelist is a fun, quirky little mini-game where both players play the same character and are forced to C4 to recover. Many games of duelist will look incredibly similar and be hard to distinguish from other games of Duelist. It is a game worthy of being a side-event, and nothing more.

Mario Bros is a stage that, on its own, includes factors that would deem any other stage ban-worthy. Cave of life effect, permanent walk-offs, circle camping potential. The one redeeming factor that allows Mario Bros to keep itself competitively interesting is the "items" that it spawns. These items drastically change the gameplay to the point that an altered ruleset should be set in place in order to properly accommodate the metagame supported by the stage. This, along with the fact that regularly ban-worthy qualities are present in the stage, are good indications that it is not fit for tournament play as a legal stage. Again, it is more suitable as a side event.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Who was saying I thought the stage was fit for competitive play? o_O

 

[Kantrip]

I don't know, I just felt like typing out my thoughts on the matter to prevent confusion or further miscommunication.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Mario Bros is a stage that, on its own, includes factors that would deem any other stage ban-worthy. Cave of life effect, permanent walk-offs, circle camping potential.

Actually, items limits all f these strategies.
Your point is invalid.

The one redeeming factor that allows Mario Bros to keep itself competitively interesting is the "items" that it spawns. These items drastically change the gameplay to the point that an altered ruleset should be set in place in order to properly accommodate the metagame supported by the stage. This, along with the fact that regularly ban-worthy qualities are present in the stage, are good indications that it is not fit for tournament play as a legal stage. Again, it is more suitable as a side event.

Stage is absolutely playable and special strategies must be used.
"Being different" is not banworthy.

I'm not pushing for its legality, just pointing that out.

 

[Kantrip]

By "on its own" I meant to say without items or something. I worded that wrong, but my point still stands.

What makes it banworthy really is that is assesses different skills than regular brawl matches and is akin to Duelist or Stamina Brawl.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Actually, is not playing "different skills", but "focusing on certain lesser ones" (kinda.... would need a better wording).

 

[Kantrip]

Alright, fair enough.

The point is, its focus is not the same place a standard main event of brawl is.

I think Mario Bros would be a really cool side event, though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It'd be accurate to say that playing as Ice Climbers doesn't test the skills we want to test either, you know.

 

[Kantrip]

Are you advocating for Ice Climbers' ban, attempting to poke a hole in my reasoning, or joking?

I'd assume the first is a silly option. The winky face indicates that the third option is the most likely.

I'd go to say that characters and stages should not be compared with each other in that way.