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R.O.B Counter of the Week: "Falco"- How Does He Work? How Do You Beat Him?

Mister Eric

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I mean, I can do the basics of it without every practicing it. It's a free foot stool and if you just slide your thumb down from the double jump to A (while holding down) then the rest is pretty breezy. Tell him no excuses and to beat your ROB forevers.

But srsly. I think it's just bc brawl players are too lazy to this stuff.
 

Mister Eric

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=/ i gotcha.
could be the way he tries to input it; not sure.
i just wish i could see it done more often.
 

T0MMY

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Wish I gave my input on Snake seeing as I have loads more good info on how to play that matchup that would totally change your gameplay after reading it.
I don't check in on these boards very often so I guess TeeVee's writeup will have to do.

Falcos always give me a difficult time. I don't think I have very much info to provide against him. The best strategy I found is to choose Pikachu and laugh.
 

stingers

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no you can still give your input on snake! please =[ Im struggling with him more than mk these days.
 

Mister Eric

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I really don't think Snake is nearly as bad as TeeVee described.
 

sneakytako

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I'm going to say that the MK MU is unwinnable when the MK knows the MU, I wanna see if anyone can convince me I'm wrong.
 

MEOW1337KITTEH

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Kiraflax beats K9 in my state. Kira is ranked #2 and k9 is #3. They win about 50/50 with Kira winning a bit more than k9. K9 mains falco and MK. They play each other almost every tournament.
 

k9.

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MEOW1337KITTEH

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Ah. I just see you both take games off of each other, is hard to tell when you are off your game. Still takes care of the blanket statement that it can never be done.
 

Darth Waffles

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Yikes at the second video, first/second stock. Nair from 91% to 101%, and again to 110%. After the fair to get to 119%, there are nine more nairs, all of which fail to hit, and then at 3:36, nair is finally guaranteed as a kill move (since it is fresh due to ROB having been KO'd during this time), and instead we see a fsmash come out while facing the wrong way. I'm not saying that you weren't on point, since you did tack on a hefty 150% quite nicely, but I don't think that this is the pinnacle of the matchup, even if both of you were going 100% (seeing as how it's LF, I assume you both were, or with whatever energy you had left). Obviously, 3:34 was a mistake for MK, as was the up B at 2:04 for ROB (instead of a back air, getting him to the stage).

Personal thoughts? MK absolutely should beat ROB if you know the matchup. I just don't think that this is the single best video to prove it, the 150% string aside, and it's often hard to separate hindsight bias (Winning consistently = wins the matchup) from both players being on point. I'd agree with k9 on the whole though
 

8Bitman

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MK beats R.O.B no matter who does or doesn't know the MU... Why is this being argued here???

Also now I am persuaded Falco is R.O.B's HARDEST MU. Harder than Snake, MK, Olimar, ZSS and DDD.

You CAN run from DDD, still might lose cuz of CG -> Edge Guard.
You CAN gimp Snake, still might lose from Tech Chase -> U-Tilt.
You CAN win if MK SD's or camps.
You CAN beat a ZSS if they camp/aren't aggressive, it's impossible if they KNOW the infinite.
You CAN beat an Olimar if they are too aggressive and don't camp.

If these are the play styles of these characters then you will not, I repeat, WILL NOT win a set against this character.

I wasn't expecting to cover any other characters in this thread, if you have a problem with any other character, you have no EXP with them and/or you are a bad player, therefore I will not care about your opinion.
 

Zwarm

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MUs assume no SDs and MUs are played the right way, therefore, MK is unbeatable.

Logic = Flawless

Not really, but shh.

I still don't find Falco that difficult to beat, but I don't really play Brawl anymore, so what do I know?

:phone:
 

8Bitman

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U got it backwards. Agro knights are cake, they just run into ur moves. Campy knights that know how to space are the problem.

Also, Falco isn't as bad. He should SD way more than mk lawlawlawl
Re-Watch Ocean v M2K, and tell me that Campy MK's are the problem... If you don't have a problem with Aggro MK... Then you aren't PLAYING MK...
 

8Bitman

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I don't want to live on this planet anymore...

NO! I was saying the exact opposite, because you think the MK MU is winnable...

Apparently you didn't understand my post...
 

sneakytako

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I'm going to say that the MK MU is unwinnable when the MK knows the MU, I wanna see if anyone can convince me I'm wrong.
I don't want to live on this planet anymore...

NO! I was saying the exact opposite, because you think the MK MU is winnable...

Apparently you didn't understand my post...
Mirror Mirror on the wall, who is the most fail of them all?
 

sneakytako

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Also, I think the Olimar MU is plenty winnable, but not even.

The way the MU works is we are required to make unsafe calls. The risk vs return on landing fairs/bairs/grabs/filts keeps the MU from being overwhelming. You have to be in their Upsmash/grab/fair ranges to land these attacks, but if we land one when they are about 70% can mean gimp KO. Pretty much you need two consecutive calls to kill a Olimar, it's really not that bad if you don't play too passive. It's a coin flip that you don't really win, but olimars are pretty easy to read imo.
 

8Bitman

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Until D-Tilt takes priority over Olimar's Grab and Smashes, it will not be > Oli.
 

sneakytako

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Dtilt outspeeds all of his options up close, his only option is to actually get above you and space fair. If he tries to nair you, you react and uptilt.

If he tries to retreat and pivotgrab, you either jump and nair or you retreat and laser him. You might be able to react and ftilt since he's got no grab armor, but idk I'm not that fast. But you can definitely beat his stutter step fsmash with ftilt.
 

Mister Eric

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Dtilt is stronger in the MU than you might believe, 8bit. Im only being silly when I say that move alone beats him but it most definitely shouldn't be ignored. I wish I had a more static olimar to practice against. I even feel side-b is effective in this MU in the gimping department.

:phone:
 

PMC66

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MK beats R.O.B no matter who does or doesn't know the MU... Why is this being argued here???

Also now I am persuaded Falco is R.O.B's HARDEST MU. Harder than Snake, MK, Olimar, ZSS and DDD.

You CAN run from DDD, still might lose cuz of CG -> Edge Guard.
You CAN gimp Snake, still might lose from Tech Chase -> U-Tilt.
You CAN win if MK SD's or camps.
You CAN beat a ZSS if they camp/aren't aggressive, it's impossible if they KNOW the infinite.
You CAN beat an Olimar if they are too aggressive and don't camp.

If these are the play styles of these characters then you will not, I repeat, WILL NOT win a set against this character.

I wasn't expecting to cover any other characters in this thread, if you have a problem with any other character, you have no EXP with them and/or you are a bad player, therefore I will not care about your opinion.
I'd have Said Fox is harder, he kills us faster and he's pretty much ungimpable. Falco ROB can get lucky with, though i am over time starting to feel Falco is just getting worse and worse for ROB, I don't see how it's feasible to beat him outside of getting Lucky.

Fox we just don't lucky with, a Fox that knows this MU anihlates ROB, Ocean has never beaten Yui in tournament that should say something. I know Fox isn't commonly played but he is without a doubt ROB's hardest MU. MK aproaches, Falco can be gimped, Fox is basically them but without either of those issues, he out frames everything ROB does, he lives stupidly long because we can't land KO moves, and Fox's Up smash and B-air are stupid.

I know i'm the only one so far who's come out and said Fox is worst but i definetly feel as my past experience as a ROB main, knowledge of the game and frame data for both characters as well as looking at tournament matches and also analysing my regions home scene Fox is next to unwinable for us, his sheer damage out put, the fact he never needs to aproach the fact we can't gimp him. All we have is range and we can't keep Fox out that effectively because all of Fox's attacks are way faster than ROB's and don't even lack that much range. We have almost no room for error vs a good Fox, I personally feel at high competetive or top competetive level play this matchup is nearly impossible to win.
 

sneakytako

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The Fox MU is kinda sillly, but it's definately not unwinable.

We pretty much stalemate eachother.

Fox has very poor horizonal aerial control, but he has excellent landing punish game in the form of upsmash. The thing is, we can simply choose never to engage. You can either camp the ledge or constantly run away, but both chars have alot of trouble approaching eachother. I think that the olimar and Fox MUs share a lot of parallels.

Couple things to remember.

1.) Upsmash is 100% avoidable. Upsmash is a punish move, fox can't set it up without dair. If you never get hit by dair, never whiff aerials, and never drop shield within a specifc range, you should never get hit by upsmash. Be exteremely wary of attacking a grounded fox with aerials. Force him to fish for uairs and bairs.

2.) He utterly gts shut down when you camp the ledge, especially stages like halbred and delphino where lasers can peneterate the stage from below. If you are in kill range and he is not, even the MU by camping the ledge hard.

3.) Never challange dair. The risk vs return is never worth it, unless you are 100% sure you can beat it from the side never stay below fox.

4.) His safest approach is dashgrab. Change your spacing by constantly retreating while you spam lasers (pretty much reverse all of your groudned laser/gyro game)

5.) Ftilt is pretty safe except on PS. Use it to knock him off the stage, then option select him into running into bair or edge hogging him.

Let me go into more detail here.

Fox can never get on the stage from off the stage is you bair properly. Prevent him from phantasming back on the stage.

If he decides to phantasm to the ledge, focus on hitting of off the stage again. His main ledge game is phanstasm, ledge attack, rising fair and getup/roll.

Bair beats phantasm, resets getup, leads into grab from roll. You lose when he ledge attacks, sometimes fair.
Shielding near the ledge beats ledge attack, fair, leads into grab from getup. Phantasm/roll is safe against shield.
Spaced fsmash beats ledge attack and fair, resets getup. Roll is safe, you lose to phantasm.
Uptitlt can beat phantasm, and makes the other options reactable, but the knockback does not always lead into getting him off the stage.
If he just sits on the ledge, poke him with dtilt.

Try to call him on these situations, a gyro on the stage can stop phantasm which makes shielding and spaced fmashes very powerful.

6.) Always DI away. Fox's follow up game is extremely potent, we should not be looking to outspace him after we get grabbed/dashattacked. Just try to get as much distance from him and do not try to guess with airdodge to punish his followup.

Stages:

Starters - Avoid CS and BF. SV is evenish, try to CP to YI, PS1 and FD are risky.

His CP - Ban CS or BF.

Our CP - Delphino is really good, water leaves him really vulernable to strong gyros and dairs, recovering is nasty, walls lead to dtilt locks, laser peneterate from below the stage. Halbred is a bit riskier with low ceiling but theres a bunch of things that are amazing about that stage. Mainly that fox has trouble recovering on that stage. If you don't like halbred, frigate is always a solid choice, but they will probably ban frigate.

If they ban Delphino, Halbred or Frigate.

If they ban Frigate, go Delphino.

Any other ban, go to Delphino. (This is my opinion though)

Hope that helps.
 

PMC66

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^ yes and avoid B-air-F-smash and U-air while your at it, they kill us quite quickly.

his F-tilt is faster than ours unless we have him at the peak of range we will loose all grounded scenarios vs him.

Stale mate my ***, a smart Fox can outcamp ROB, and even if he decides to aproach because he isn't out camping us, if he gets near us we are completely screwed. Halberd for Fox, insanity, the low ceiling the fact that he's got plenty of room to camp. U-smash avoidable? that move beats wolf's freaking B-air when it's timed right and thats faster than any ariel we have.

Your point about Delfino is a good one but stage lists are begining to narrow in todays meta Game. in general there is nowhere we can take Fox that can really make this any better. He beats us in the air, on the ground, heck 70% of the time Fox will out camp ROB from sheer damage out put and using reflector to spin lasers and gyro's back, Keeping Gyro out can also be dangerous if Fox gets a hold of it if we're sent flying * which will happen alot of the time. his power toss is quite good, even if it's gimmicky for the most part we cannot gimp him, we can't get him to aproach us we are ****ed if Fox even gets within his own attack range, and for the most part we eat a shed load of damage, and die early, while at the same time he out frames everything we do to kingdom come. Fox can be ultra campy or aggressive he decides the pace of the match, as well as beat everymove we have.

i've camped the ledge as ROB in this MU it really doesn't work that well because fox can just get his reflector out, we deal no damage to him whatsoever at certain distances, so planking and ledge camping doesn't work.


in my opinion -3
 

8Bitman

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Fox is hard, but in no universe is he harder than the 5 MU's I listed above.

Also Mr. Eric, my brother has an amazing Olimar, and i've just noticed that while D-Tilt is a GREAT move against him, it's rare that we have a chance to use it. I say this because , is it agreed that we are the ones who have to approach due to being outcamped??? (Or at least on most stages due to the size) When we approach, it is always safer to F-Tilt than to D-Tilt.

I understand your whole, he will react with a Fair punish, but we can't really do anything about that. Mainly because while our D-Tilt is fast, it's not fast enough to shield the Fair afterward. I get punished from Fair a lot! It's too fast of an OoS option. You literally have to approach with a Glide-Toss -> Grab every time just to get in. Olimar is a dumb character, he's actually quite easy to gimp though if you can get them off the edge, but on stage, Olimar ***** us.
 

PMC66

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well to be fair at least you recognis that ROB V snake is -2 ish.

I'd still rather take him over fox though i've seen people win vs snake, myself, and other robs i have watched when both sides knew the MU ROB never won
 

sneakytako

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I bet when you say 'I camped fox on the ledge' you got reflectored once and tried to get back on the stage.

Here's the situation:

If he reflectors close/mid stage, you act like your going to shark him and see how he reacts. If he jumps you punish his landing. If he shields you either wait some more or pressure him with upair. If he runs away you laser. If he does nothing you space nair so that he's in the disjointed range but your hurt box is not within any of his moves (Probably dair and dsmash is his reaction.)

If he reflectors far away, you setup gyro on the stage. You proceed to camp near the ledge, gain gas and go back to the ledge if he approaches.

If he lasers, your laser wins. We do more % and get flinch. If he reflectors, angle it so it doesn't hit you in the face. We outcamp fox bro. Just stay patient and don't let a few lasers hits derail your strategy. Make him approach you and play the coin flip to knock him off the stage.

@ 8bitman.

Don't think Olimar outcamps us super hard. Sure he does a lot of dmg, but that dmg can account to nothing if he never gets a hit with knockback on it. OS taught me a really good rule for pikimin: ignore if there are less than 3 non-white pikimin on you, unless you're sure you're safe. After 140% he gets almost no new kill moves, just allow yourself to trade damage and knock him off at 70% and gimp him. Don't worry about getting out dmged while you camp so much as trying to chip as much percent as possible on him. Even if you have 200+% you can kill him at >100%. The most I've survived on one stock is 320%-ish, stay patient.

IDK guys, I think I just play way gayer than you guys, and I think I can still play way gayer.
 

Mister Eric

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Played a Falco earlier. Decided to time him out since shooting lasers plus side-b was hard to beat on wifi, he gets mad for me putting him into a disadvantageous position by ledge hugging.
He mad.
Story of a Falco.
 

Mister Eric

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On SV, I camped the platform when it was on the far right or left. I would stay strategically airborne or ledgeborne otherwise.
On BF I used the platforms to jump as high as I can and dair camp. He would snag me with lasers here and there, and I know he can jump high, but if I chose to avoid him, I could. FD...just ban it.
 

T0MMY

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Why did K9 give us a video of Kira's Pit?
We want to see Kira beat Falcos and MKs with R.O.B., did he give up on maining R.O.B. after his all-R.O.B. attempt didn't go so well a while back?

Honestly, I think R.O.B. is better than Pit, but is not as good against Falco and Meta Knight... not to say Pit is great at those MUs X^D
 
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