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R.O.B Counter of the Week: "Falco"- How Does He Work? How Do You Beat Him?

8Bitman

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I made this thread to help everyone. Every week or two I will change the character and we will discuss the topic here.

The reason why I wanted to make this is because all of us have our own perspective on each and every character. While some make think MU's are easy, others may believe it is the polar opposite.

I want everyone here in the R.O.B forums, no matter how skilled or unskilled, to add any experiences with the current MU of discussion that they have ever had. (As long as it is relevant and we don't go far off topic.)

I want us to give each other another perspective on a character that we feel is harder than they should be. Give MU experience, results, and data on what moves/techniques/tactics get you in the better situation or next hit.

Please and thank you.
 

8Bitman

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Alright, so I will start this off seeing as I brought up the idea.

I want to know what works and what doesn't against them.

Characters:

Snake:
TeeVee's Write-Up:

The right answer would to be to pick a different character if the snake knows the matchup (rob wins 55 - 45 against snakes who don't know the matchup, but loses 60 - 40 if they know it), but if you must use rob, I am pretty confident that I know the correct things to do more than every rob aside from holy.


----

Camp with gyros and lazers - Snakes that know the matchup realize that snake cant out camp rob so they wont even try but you might get a couple lucky hits for some damage if you mix up your camping game. If you notice the snake is dashing powershielding your projectiles, run up and grab when hes around f tilt range. This mixup will work a couple times a set. If you notice they are walking powershielding your projectiles, you are gonna want to swat him away with f tilt. If they get inside ftilt range, you either need to bait an ftilt and punish according or run up and grab. The run up and grab works ALOT in this matchup because it is not expected. You should be d throwing every time unless you are close enough to the ledge that bthrow/fthrow will send him off.

Do not follow snake in the air - If you get snake in the air with d smash or d throw, charge gyros when hes recovering high and hit him with it as hes landing. If you don't have time to charge, punish his landing with a grab or bair (if you read the airdodge). The only time you should be trying to Uair or Nair snake is when hes using the cypher or on a platform.

Only use Bair when snakes on the ledge - Spam fast falled bairs (back facing the ledge) when snakes on the ledge. He has no safe options of getting back on stage without taking some sort of damage if you use bair. Every other move gives him options.

If you are in kill percent, DO NOT LEDGE HOP FAIR - This is probably the most important because this is where snakes get most of their kills on rob. They are expecting this because this is the most common way rob's get on stage from the ledge. Most of the time they will powershield and punish, and if they don't... at low percents fair isn't even safe on hit, snakes have time to up tilt. The only time you should be using fair against snake is retreating fairs (very very good for baiting snake dacus) or if you catch him with a fair string while they are using the cypher (even then, I think we only get 2 - 3 fairs before it stales too much). The safest way to get back on the stage is using the stages environment. Ledge hop backwards and Up B to a platform (On smashville wait till the platform is on your side, on BF fly up to the top platform, etc.). These aren't guaranteed safe ways to get on stage, but it's pretty much the best option aside from ledge hopping backwards and spacing the gyro as close to ledge as possible. I'm going to stress the point again DO NOT FAIR SNAKE AT ANY POINT IN THE MATCH ON STAGE UNLESS YOU ARE RETREATING. WE HAVE NO FOLLOW UPS AND AT NON HIGH PERCENTS, ITS NOT EVEN SAFE ON HIT.

Snake Ftilt - If snakes try to bait you with only using the first hit of ftilt on your shield, just roll away. Do not try to punish it, just roll away and keep camping. DO NOT TRY TO PUNISH IT.

Rob's Pseudo CG - I invented a pseudo CG that works against characters who don't have multiple jumps: Dthrow - Headbutt part of bair as they are landing - Grab

After you d throw, staying on the ground, you follow them while they are in the air. As soon as they are landing you headbutt them with bair, if they airdodge the bair you get a free grab (dthrow again). If they don't airdodge the bair, you can hit confirm into d smash or grab again. It take a while to get the spacing down, but once you do it's so godlike.


Killing Snake - Get lucky. No, seriously though. Get lucky. The only way we can kill snake is if he makes a mistake, take advantage but do not fish.

Snake's Dthrow - This is the most annoying part of the matchup. Good snakes are going to **** you up with this unless you get lucky. The most reliable option IMO is waiting a second or 2 after he d throws you and react. If he doesn't move, roll forward. If he tries to predict the forward roll, roll behind him. If you get grabbed on a ledge just put the controller down, its over.

Pummel - It's so important to pummel after every grab you get on snake after hes at ~50 percent. You NEED to have you bair refreshed because thats your only chance on getting an early[ish] kill on snake if he gets offstage. Try to keep Nair fresh until hes at like 130 too.

Platform Pressure - TICKLE SNAKES FEET. UP AIR ALL DAY BUT DONT OVER COMMIT OR HE CAN PUNISH IT ON SHIELD. TICKLE HIS FEEEEEEEEEEET. DONT USE FAIR, DONT USE BAIR, DONT USE NAIR. JUST TICKLE.

Falco:
Coming Soon to Theaters near you
 

TeeVee

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i have the most snake experience out of every rob main, ill do a write up either at work or when i get home from work.
 

8Bitman

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Alright, seems legit. Just make sure to describe it from R.O.B's PoV rather than any other characters you are experienced with.
 

Mister Eric

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i have the most snake experience out of every rob main, ill do a write up either at work or when i get home from work.
Doesn't mean you has ze right answers. ;3
Interested to see what you have to say about it though.
 

TeeVee

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The right answer would to be to pick a different character if the snake knows the matchup (rob wins 55 - 45 against snakes who don't know the matchup, but loses 60 - 40 if they know it), but if you must use rob, I am pretty confident that I know the correct things to do more than every rob aside from holy.


----

Camp with gyros and lazers - Snakes that know the matchup realize that snake cant out camp rob so they wont even try but you might get a couple lucky hits for some damage if you mix up your camping game. If you notice the snake is dashing powershielding your projectiles, run up and grab when hes around f tilt range. This mixup will work a couple times a set. If you notice they are walking powershielding your projectiles, you are gonna want to swat him away with f tilt. If they get inside ftilt range, you either need to bait an ftilt and punish according or run up and grab. The run up and grab works ALOT in this matchup because it is not expected. You should be d throwing every time unless you are close enough to the ledge that bthrow/fthrow will send him off.

Do not follow snake in the air - If you get snake in the air with d smash or d throw, charge gyros when hes recovering high and hit him with it as hes landing. If you don't have time to charge, punish his landing with a grab or bair (if you read the airdodge). The only time you should be trying to Uair or Nair snake is when hes using the cypher or on a platform.

Only use Bair when snakes on the ledge - Spam fast falled bairs (back facing the ledge) when snakes on the ledge. He has no safe options of getting back on stage without taking some sort of damage if you use bair. Every other move gives him options.

If you are in kill percent, DO NOT LEDGE HOP FAIR - This is probably the most important because this is where snakes get most of their kills on rob. They are expecting this because this is the most common way rob's get on stage from the ledge. Most of the time they will powershield and punish, and if they don't... at low percents fair isn't even safe on hit, snakes have time to up tilt. The only time you should be using fair against snake is retreating fairs (very very good for baiting snake dacus) or if you catch him with a fair string while they are using the cypher (even then, I think we only get 2 - 3 fairs before it stales too much). The safest way to get back on the stage is using the stages environment. Ledge hop backwards and Up B to a platform (On smashville wait till the platform is on your side, on BF fly up to the top platform, etc.). These aren't guaranteed safe ways to get on stage, but it's pretty much the best option aside from ledge hopping backwards and spacing the gyro as close to ledge as possible. I'm going to stress the point again DO NOT FAIR SNAKE AT ANY POINT IN THE MATCH ON STAGE UNLESS YOU ARE RETREATING. WE HAVE NO FOLLOW UPS AND AT NON HIGH PERCENTS, ITS NOT EVEN SAFE ON HIT.

Snake Ftilt - If snakes try to bait you with only using the first hit of ftilt on your shield, just roll away. Do not try to punish it, just roll away and keep camping. DO NOT TRY TO PUNISH IT.

Rob's Pseudo CG - I invented a pseudo CG that works against characters who don't have multiple jumps: Dthrow - Headbutt part of bair as they are landing - Grab

After you d throw, staying on the ground, you follow them while they are in the air. As soon as they are landing you headbutt them with bair, if they airdodge the bair you get a free grab (dthrow again). If they don't airdodge the bair, you can hit confirm into d smash or grab again. It take a while to get the spacing down, but once you do it's so godlike.


Killing Snake - Get lucky. No, seriously though. Get lucky. The only way we can kill snake is if he makes a mistake, take advantage but do not fish.

Snake's Dthrow - This is the most annoying part of the matchup. Good snakes are going to **** you up with this unless you get lucky. The most reliable option IMO is waiting a second or 2 after he d throws you and react. If he doesn't move, roll forward. If he tries to predict the forward roll, roll behind him. If you get grabbed on a ledge just put the controller down, its over.

Pummel - It's so important to pummel after every grab you get on snake after hes at ~50 percent. You NEED to have you bair refreshed because thats your only chance on getting an early[ish] kill on snake if he gets offstage. Try to keep Nair fresh until hes at like 130 too.

Platform Pressure - TICKLE SNAKES FEET. UP AIR ALL DAY BUT DONT OVER COMMIT OR HE CAN PUNISH IT ON SHIELD. TICKLE HIS FEEEEEEEEEEET. DONT USE FAIR, DONT USE BAIR, DONT USE NAIR. JUST TICKLE.



There's probably more that I am forgetting, haven't used rob seriously in a while
 

sneakytako

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I think a major component of the MU is punishing snake's landing, I think there are three giant variables to his landing: Snake Bair, Nair, and w/e RAR is called now nades/C4. I think the most helpful lesson I learned was not to try and beat his aerials as he tries to land, but rather punish his landing lag of bair and nair. The best situation is when you can shield facing where snake is going to land, try to get that situation to happen without dashing and failing to shield.

Good stuff TV.
 

8Bitman

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Snake's Dthrow If you get grabbed on a ledge just put the controller down, its over.

LOL not gonna lie, I did that against MVD in one of our sets, I was at like 110%, and he had too much momentum. I put the controller down and said, "Just U-Tilt me."

Platform Pressure - TICKLE SNAKES FEET. UP AIR ALL DAY BUT DONT OVER COMMIT OR HE CAN PUNISH IT ON SHIELD. TICKLE HIS FEEEEEEEEEEET. DONT USE FAIR, DONT USE BAIR, DONT USE NAIR. JUST TICKLE.

I got scared when reading this... But in all seriousness I thought it contradicted what you said earlier about fast-falling a Bair when Snake is on a ledge. Can you explain this a little more. Sorry, you've typed a lot, this just confused me a bit.
Thank you TV, I try not to sound ******** or unskilled by asking this ( ^^^ ), or putting up this thread, but no matter how smart I think I play, an aggressive Snake has an answer to all of my tactics.
 

TeeVee

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ledge =/= platform



and yea, good snakes who know the matchup are a nightmare. unfortunately, i live in a region with 3 of arguably the top 5 in the country who all know the matchup well which forces me to use wario now (when i do happen to show up and enter singles which happens once every like 2 or 3 months lol)
 

8Bitman

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Alright, thanks for that. I will definitely be trying these out during my practice. I appreciate it TV. =)

One more thing, while I know Uair is a good % racking move, wouldn't you recommend just to UTilt because you can get punished severely even if you don't commit fully. UTilt is much safer and incase of a FastFall Bair by Snake, we could always PowerShield.
 

TeeVee

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up tilt is safer but less rewarding, up air just does so much damage
 

8Bitman

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With UTilt though you can follow up, Uair has no follow ups and puts you in the worse situation majority of the time.
 

MVD

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Alright, so I will start this off seeing as I brought up the idea.

So ever since I started playing Brawl when it came it, I have been using R.O.B. My brothers have always used/mained Snake. They always beat me and I win maybe 1/5 of the matches. They are extremely good but mainly it is because they know how I play rather than completely understanding R.O.B.

I believed this 100% until I fought MVD for the very first time in tourney. I thought I was going to **** him since I have so much Snake experience due to playing one everyday of my life. But, in fact, he ***** me. While I know how fast Snake is, how long his moves last, and all of his little set-ups. I lack the ability to understand how to punish him effectively.

I want to know what works and what doesn't against him.
I see you talking about me
 

8Bitman

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Why the hell do people name search themselves? How bored can you get? XD

EDIT: Unless anyone else has anything to add to this, shall we discuss what character we want to review next?

I will be Copy and Pasting every character write-up to my second post after every week. :3
 

MVD

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Why the hell do people name search themselves? How bored can you get? XD

EDIT: Unless anyone else has anything to add to this, shall we discuss what character we want to review next?

I will be Copy and Pasting every character write-up to my second post after every week. :3
Cause I know you secretly love me and talk about me

:phone:
 

8Bitman

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Ehh, not really, if I recall correctly, you cheat, I can't love a cheater.
 

8Bitman

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I agree, I just feel that discussing Falco will get us no where. He is even more of a R.O.B counter than Snake. Eeeeekkk!

I am for it though, I have a few inputs, but not the solution to the Great Depression if you know what I mean. =/
 

8Bitman

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Well, I can actually beat Falco, with Snake I just find that no matter how hard I try, I just do worse...
 

8Bitman

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No, it's not just you MVD, all good Snakes whether they know the MU or not will wreck me. I have Snake EXP, but I feel like a Gopher when playing Snake.

Let me correct myself of what I said earlier about Falco. I feel he is less of a counter than Snake. BUT to counter R.O.B with Falco is easier than with Snake. It's hard for me to explain. It's because of the way Falco plays, I feel the Falco just has to run away and spam the whole match. While the Snake at least has to be semi-skilled to have a chance.
 

sneakytako

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I feel the exact opposite. If falco is bad I can rofl stomp them. If I play a top 5 falco then he just poops on me, because he's just a way better character. If the falco is only OK then I read their phantasm and proceed to rofl, then stomp.

With snake, one mistake leads to ftilt/uptilt, which pretty much defines how the entire MU plays out. If I feel off or if laggy TVs are present, snake is super scary. The worse the snake the more difficult to read them imo. Snake is stupid. We win on paper but you can't stop the rock.
 

Mister Eric

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I think if I sat down with a good falco for an hour or two, I could pick up on the MU. other than that, never had the opportunity.
 

MEOW1337KITTEH

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I have a tournament next weekend, I could ask KiraFlax about Falco if you want. He plays against K9 a lot and plays against SK92 as well, but not nearly as much. I can ask K9 about Falco vs ROB as well.

:phone:
 

Funbun

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I play against an okay Falco main pretty often, so I can give like $0.01 on this.

Obviously, Falco outcamps ROB with the lasers, and Falco has the reflector.

The two primary moves that you can sort of punish is the phantasm and the reflector. You'll have to make the approaches on Falco, keep your spacing and watch out for the reflector. He has the lag disadvantage when he whips it out, so put medium distance pressure on it and punish.

As usual, don't get grabbed. We all know he has the Dthrow chain. When you're at reasonable percentage, you can probably DI away from it and punch him away with a Fair, or just jump away.

If you're going to try to hit him with a laser from afar, try to shoot it up or down at him at an angle, so you won't get hit in case he manages to reflect it.

Always side throw at low percentages. Try to get him off the stage, he's a bit more limited in what he can do to recover than most characters, and you should anticipate a phantasm to Nair or Bair off of.

When you're at high percentage, beware of his Usmash and Fsmash at the short range. Expect him to DACUS or hyphen smash the Usmash at bigger distances. You can rack up the damage when you're in the lead with gyro easily. Psych him out his reflector with glide toss gyro toss down, wave bouncing, canceling, gyro catch aerials, etc. You can use it to set up other moves, especially because you know he can potentially reflect it.

It should go without saying that when you are above him, you are dead. Don't be above him. Don't try anything when he is directly above you, either.

ROB can easily Ftilt or Dtilt Falco's ground approaches besides the phantasm. Always expect a phantasm, and prepare your aerial.

Anything else is pretty much standard ROB game.

Against the very top tier Falcos, I know absolute ****, because they probably know all of this.
 

dettadeus

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I haven't played Falco at all as R.O.B., either I don't meet up with a Falco or they're playing Snake instead. :/

Call me when you get to Yoshi or Icies.
 

8Bitman

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........ Uhhhhh I doubt we will be getting to them at all, they're not really counters of R.O.B.... Maybe IC, but that is a MAYBE.
 

dettadeus

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That was kinda my point. :p

The Ice Climbers matchup is just like, leave a Gyro in front of you and D-Smash when they get near you lol.
If they do, since Laser is one of the few projectiles that goes through Ice Blocks IIRC.

Probably not actually but that's what it feels like it would be since I play both characters. I don't think I've seen a single R.O.B. v Icies game and I don't think I will for a while.

If I could get Bees to come back and post I would, but he doesn't seem all that interested in coming back and posting stuff. :/
He's like the god of the Falco matchup in our region.
 
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