Questions about moves...

[Sonicdahedgie]

Side-B vs Down-B

Things I'm wondering about that aren't on the thread.

Down-B
Launches faster?

Little hop is less responsive (Actually, I'm fairly tired, and can't remember if it even has a hop or not. But I think I remember thinking that a few hours back.)


Side-B
Does anyone else think it's harder to use, just to press side and not repeatedly tab B? It just doesn't feel right to me.

When using the hop, what are the ways to use it? And how exactly do I control when my aerials are executed? (I know these things, but it runs on instinct that's only right a third of the time, I want to KNOW.)


Down aerial
I'm comfortable with this attack. Unfortunately, too comfortable, it seems. I over use this move a lot. I use it to descend quickly, attack opponents when they're below me, even on the ground, just all around too much.

I use this move because it's fast. Trying to hit someone below you with this is much faster than, say, using neutral air and drifting down to them. I'd just like some situations where I should and shouldn't use the move, and some general rules for using others.

(Oh, specifically which move is the best for enemies DIRECTLY below you.)


Up-B
Just yesterday, I realized that Up-B is useful for more than just recovery. Mainly, using the spring to deal damage. But also, randomly using it when close to the enemy confuses the enemy, and it can be nifty to use instead of rolling or sidestep dodges at times.

Mainly, I want to know about using the spring. Would you consider it worth it to use directly above the ground, just for it to hit the enemy? How do other's use it? How can you use it to edge guard?
__________________

Also, if anyone has any visual aides showing the location of hitboxes/hurtboxes during moves, that would kick ***.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Concerning down B and side B there is a thread devoted for it.
sideB and down B mechanics.

As for Dair, don't use it so often. Its a bad move for opponents below you. if anything air then airdodge through their attack but do not use it often. It sucks.
Terribly.

Spring topic can be found somewhere here just use the search bar.

 

[Sonicdahedgie]

I'm well aware of the thread, I've read it before, and I even looked at it again before posting. But the first post didn't have the information I wanted, and it would take an ungodly amount of time to read the entire thread to find or not find what I am looking for.

As for down air, I said I know I shouldn't use it so often. And should I hold down while air dodging, or should the natural drop speed be enough?


In realtion to searching, I normally would search before posting, but I not only had other questions being asked, I am also well aware searching for "spring up-b" will possibly bring up every thread in the Sonic board, destroying the use of the search function. While I also know something like this MUST have been asked before, updated opinions are probably more useful.

 

[infomon]

side-B has less start-up lag before it starts charging; maybe by just 2 or 3 frames, idk. So you can jump-cancel a side-B sooner than a down-B; either as a VSDJ from the ground, or a jump-cancel of the aerial charge. However, side-B has to charge for a few frames before the earliest time at which it can be released. So down-B can release faster than side-B.

Down-B has no hop. Unless you want to jump out of a grounded SDR, as in an SDJ.

Side-B
Does anyone else think it's harder to use, just to press side and not repeatedly tab B? It just doesn't feel right to me.

lol You get used to it.

When using the hop, what are the ways to use it? And how exactly do I control when my aerials are executed? (I know these things, but it runs on instinct that's only right a third of the time, I want to KNOW.)

The side-B hop (before it reaches the ground) can be jump-cancelled, if your midair jump is available. The technicalities about when your midair jump is available, can be.... tricky.... is that what you're asking about? You can use any aerial out of the jump-cancel... I'm not sure what else you mean about the aerials. If you're talking about an SDJ/VSDJ, that's a little different...

Dair: most characters are pretty vulnerable from below, so try not to get into this position. Sonic's got an alright time because he has options to get away from this situation; Dair stalls a bit before it descends, so does HA, and Spring is great for getting away from a predictable descent. Falling Fairs are good if you know you won't get punished for it (the landing lag is terrible), falling Bairs can be good too.

Up-B: Great for gimping and getting out of a bad situation. Can also frustrate campers

Also, if anyone has any visual aides showing the location of hitboxes/hurtboxes during moves, that would kick ***.

the best we've got:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211629

 

[Sonicdahedgie]

Yeah, I know the Dair's landing lag is bad, and about the stall before descent. The stall only get me when the enemy is RIGHT under me, though, which is what I needed an alternative for. Thanks for the spring idea. I always try and attack instead of running.

By HA, did you mean Neutral-A?


Any answer to gimping recoveries with the spring?

 

[infomon]

HA = Homing Attack, neutral-B.

what was your question about gimping with spring? it's awesome, do it

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

By HA, did you mean Neutral-A?


Any answer to gimping recoveries with the spring?

HA = Homing Attack

To the latter question, if you set it up such that you get hit away from the stage then do your up-B then you can make it back to the stage ... usually. Don't get trapped under the stage, thats what we want to do as Sonics to you. lol.

Or if your Up-B has priority, just go through the spring. =/

 

[Sonicdahedgie]

@Orange Soda Man
I meant gimping other people's recoveries with the spring, not how to recover. I've been playing this game since 64, so I'm not a TOTAL idiot. I think.


@Infzy
Excluding Pit's up-b, everyone get to do another up-b if they get hit after using it. If I try and gimp them REALLY far from the edge, like when they're using their second jump, I would not only be near equal height with them, they would have time to fight back.

I guess my question is: When, precisely, do I use it to keep them from recovering?

 

[Tenki]

side-B has less start-up lag before it starts charging; maybe by just 2 or 3 frames, idk. So you can jump-cancel a side-B sooner than a down-B; either as a VSDJ from the ground, or a jump-cancel of the aerial charge. However, side-B has to charge for a few frames before the earliest time at which it can be released. So down-B can release faster than side-B.

Well, it certainly feels like the release for down-B is quicker than side-B, but since it's so small, I've been waiting for some cold hard frame data for the startup/release before I make that official.

But for actual usage, I did mention that down-B is faster for reaching your opponent, since ground speed >> aerial speed, even for the spin specials, whereas side-B has to hop, and that's kind of slow.

@Orange Soda Man
I meant gimping other people's recoveries with the spring, not how to recover. I've been playing this game since 64, so I'm not a TOTAL idiot. I think.


@Infzy
Excluding Pit's up-b, everyone get to do another up-b if they get hit after using it. If I try and gimp them REALLY far from the edge, like when they're using their second jump, I would not only be near equal height with them, they would have time to fight back.

I guess my question is: When, precisely, do I use it to keep them from recovering?

One thing you can use it for is if they're recovering below the edge (example, Ike mains constantly say that up-B is a better way to recover than side-B. To an extent it's true, but if you drop a spring and send them under the edge, it's over.)

If they are hanging from the edge and like to drop down and regrab, you can use the spring for a 'safe' interruptor or even possible stage spike.

But otherwise (in the case that you knocked them far from the stage and they're planning to float back, double jump, and then up-B), you'd have to jump out, predict their float path, and either:
- drop the spring so it knocks them further away (the hitstun and subsequent fall) can screw up their original path and make it so their up-B doesn't make it at all even if the double jump.

- drop the spring towards the point you believe they'll double jump, so it either hits them as soon as they double jump, or force them to double jump earlier and commit to a more 'unsafe' flight path.


Other ways (character specific) to use spring as a gimper:
- Tether recoveries: spring can hit them if they're hanging below the ledge trying to stall for a bit of time. It can also block the path, though you're probably better off edgehogging.

- Ness: Specifically for Ness, PKT2 (pk thunder body slam thing) goes a shorter distance after hitting something, and this includes springs. If for some reason, the Ness doesn't DI or something and gets sent below/diagonally below ledge-level, you can drop the spring in his path to the edge, and it will gimp his recovery length and make it hardfail. Also, for a colder move, you can drop the spring above his head and block the opening of his PK thunder with the spring. For a more dangerous, suicidal, flashy move that you should only pull only if you 'fail' a gimp attempt with say, a U-air/F-air after his double jump, you can go below Ness further from the edge, wait for the PKthunder to begin to circle around, and spring Sonic into the PK thunder. If you miss, you'll get reverse launched and most likely die.

- Lucas: The only thing you can use to gimp his PKT is to drop the spring in front of the head.

- Falcon: This is mostly a flashy-showoff thing to do (and at a low %), but, predicting Falcon's flight path, drop the spring so it hits him from the further side (hits him slightly towards the stage). It will make him face away from the stage. Specifically for Falcon, his up-B has significantly less horizontal range when facing away from the stage, so you can drop the spring, hang on the ledge, and watch his up-B fail.

- Ike: Either before he positions himself to up-B recover, or slightly after he's thrown his sword but before he rises, drop the spring so it either knocks him away (if he's like, tip-of-his-vertical-range low) or below the stage (watch out for doing this on Battlefield/Smashville though). If you want to be flashy, Ike's side-B also triggers on falling springs, so you can use that to block a possible side-B recovery without committing yourself to be off-stage.

meh, you have to be kind of creative and know your matchups really well if you wanna perform most of these spring gimps lol.

 

[Sonicdahedgie]

While I did know most of the things you suggested, I would like to thank you greatly for the Falco, Slowing down Ness' up-b rocketing path, and, I must sadly admit I never thought of it, using it to block a predicted flight path. That last one should certainly help me some. It's a shame that Ness trick won't work on Lucas. Lucas is the ONLY character my brother plays. Ever.


I would like to ask one thing, though. If I can recal correctly, the spring doesn't necessarily send people down. Sometimes more to the side, sometimes even up when in the air. Am I wrong on this?

Anyway, How much of the spring's striking location affects the distance?


And another, are there any moves the spring can survive against? For example, if I launched the spring early while Ike uses his up-b, would his sword destroy the spring while he was rotating at the arc of his move? (I'd like as many examples of a recovery move it can gimp you can give me [Zero suit! Maybe.])

Last question, I swear.
When using the spring while standing on the ground next to an enemy, exactly how close do I have to be to lanch the enemy with me? More importantly, are all enemies launched consistently with Sonic's height?

 

[TwinkleToes]

Yeah, I know the Dair's landing lag is bad, and about the stall before descent. The stall only get me when the enemy is RIGHT under me, though, which is what I needed an alternative for. Thanks for the spring idea. I always try and attack instead of running.

By HA, did you mean Neutral-A?


Any answer to gimping recoveries with the spring?

The wind up lag for dair is pretty bad too... a lot of people will not be afraid to chase Sonic from below with aerials or what have you. Trying to dair through this spamming will get you owned.

 

[SonicX580]

Hey I got a questions what happens when you use HA on the spring? I've never tried that before.

 

[Tenki]

[1] I would like to ask one thing, though. If I can recal correctly, the spring doesn't necessarily send people down. Sometimes more to the side, sometimes even up when in the air. Am I wrong on this?

Anyway, How much of the spring's striking location affects the distance?


[2] And another, are there any moves the spring can survive against? For example, if I launched the spring early while Ike uses his up-b, would his sword destroy the spring while he was rotating at the arc of his move? (I'd like as many examples of a recovery move it can gimp you can give me [Zero suit! Maybe.])

[3] Last question, I swear.
When using the spring while standing on the ground next to an enemy, exactly how close do I have to be to lanch the enemy with me? More importantly, are all enemies launched consistently with Sonic's height?

1- The spring sends people sideways. The rest is most likely DI.
2- Moves that have 'transcendent priority' (they aren't affected by other attacks and go straight through things) tend to not destroy spring. Ike's up-B will not affect spring. None of Metaknight's attacks except maybe a side-B aimed towards it, a Tornado from the side, or N-air, will eat the spring.
3- They have to be in the air, and moving downwards. I'm not so sure of this at the moment, but I think most people are sent pretty much at the same height as you if they get bounced off the spring.

The wind up lag for dair is pretty bad too... a lot of people will not be afraid to chase Sonic from below with aerials or what have you. Trying to dair through this spamming will get you owned.

I find the startup lag pretty useful actually. If you fastfall and use the D-air just as you're on the edge of their predicted attack range, they may begin their attack, miss, and the D-air will come down just fast enough to punish their miss.

Hey I got a questions what happens when you use HA on the spring? I've never tried that before.

It cancels, you bounce off the spring, and you can perform any move as usual, including double jump (even if you've used it)

 

[Boxob.]

I find the startup lag pretty useful actually. If you fastfall and use the D-air just as you're on the edge of their predicted attack range, they may begin their attack, miss, and the D-air will come down just fast enough to punish their miss.

I do the same thing with homing attack from dair/fastfall.

Works very well.

 

[Sonicdahedgie]

1- The spring sends people sideways. The rest is most likely DI.
2- Moves that have 'transcendent priority' (they aren't affected by other attacks and go straight through things) tend to not destroy spring. Ike's up-B will not affect spring. None of Metaknight's attacks except maybe a side-B aimed towards it, a Tornado from the side, or N-air, will eat the spring.
3- They have to be in the air, and moving downwards. I'm not so sure of this at the moment, but I think most people are sent pretty much at the same height as you if they get bounced off the spring.

4-I find the startup lag pretty useful actually. If you fastfall and use the D-air just as you're on the edge of their predicted attack range, they may begin their attack, miss, and the D-air will come down just fast enough to punish their miss.

5-It cancels, you bounce off the spring, and you can perform any move as usual, including double jump (even if you've used it)

[1]Really? Sideways? That really doesn't sound right to me. If the rest is directional influence, then why would the spring ever send someone straight down? Even someone that


doesn't know about DI wouldn't use it in that direction. Maybe the side the actual spring is on affects it. Some testing should be done, me thinks.

[2]Excellent! Ike was the number one move I was hoping it could be used for, and I didn't think it would be able to work at all. Would Wolf's up-B be included in this category? It doesn't trancend time and space, but it seems like it would work.

[3]Well, I launched my friend when he was playing as Donkey Kong, and I was pretty sure he was on the ground with me. I was mid-run, though, and was deep inside of him.

[4]I concur with the usefulness of the startup lag. That range is real specific, though, and it's REALLY easy to misjudge.
And for people that are dissing the Dair entirely, it makes a much better descent move than I see people on the forums admit, in my opinion; especially against projectiles. At the right moment, you can have the opponent throw a projectile as you come down, plow through it, and even hit them in the after-throw lag.
Questions: My friend suggested that If you use the Dair higher up, landing lag is lessened. True or not?
Is the Dair attack box (Would that be the hurtbox? Or the hitbox?) disjointed from Sonic?

[5] Holy CRAP that is awesome. I hope my sleep deprivation doesn't prevent me form forgetting this.
Does the homing attack go for the spring on its own?

 

[Tenki]

[1]Really? Sideways? That really doesn't sound right to me. If the rest is directional influence, then why would the spring ever send someone straight down? Even someone that doesn't know about DI wouldn't use it in that direction. Maybe the side the actual spring is on affects it. Some testing should be done, me thinks.

[2]Excellent! Ike was the number one move I was hoping it could be used for, and I didn't think it would be able to work at all. Would Wolf's up-B be included in this category? It doesn't trancend time and space, but it seems like it would work.

[3]Well, I launched my friend when he was playing as Donkey Kong, and I was pretty sure he was on the ground with me. I was mid-run, though, and was deep inside of him.

[4]I concur with the usefulness of the startup lag. That range is real specific, though, and it's REALLY easy to misjudge.
And for people that are dissing the Dair entirely, it makes a much better descent move than I see people on the forums admit, in my opinion; especially against projectiles. At the right moment, you can have the opponent throw a projectile as you come down, plow through it, and even hit them in the after-throw lag.
Questions: My friend suggested that If you use the Dair higher up, landing lag is lessened. True or not?
Is the Dair attack box (Would that be the hurtbox? Or the hitbox?) disjointed from Sonic?

[5] Holy CRAP that is awesome. I hope my sleep deprivation doesn't prevent me form forgetting this.
Does the homing attack go for the spring on its own?

[1] It kind of sends upwards actually. I don't know about sending straight downwards. Maybe it was low-ish % and they fastfell, or maybe they were near the ground and DI'd down and got the 'spike' impact effect when they hit the floor.

[2] I think Wolf's up-B's release goes through the spring, but I'm mostly sure that if you hit him before it starts it will work.

[3] Nope. Unless your experiments on your own time prove otherwise, there isn't any other way to get launched upwards with Sonic unless you're moving downwards. My personal experiment would be on Brinstar. Place a spring under the spawn platform when someone dies. If they do ANYTHING except double jumping or rising in some form, they will immediately bounce, since they start off standing on the spring (the platform is directly on the spring's platform)

[4] If you use D-air from somewhere around the max height of Sonic's up-B, it will finish and you will have pretty much no landing lag. If you use a grounded spring, you actually travel higher than if you used an aerial spring at the same height (er, try doing up-B from a spindash and it will do an 'instant' aerial spring), so you can actually do it slightly earlier and still avoid landing lag if you do a grounded spring. But anywhere lower than that will always have the same landing lag as you would have if you just SH D-aired.

[5] No. One 'safe' way to do it is to place the spring in the path of a 'no-target' Homing Attack. If your opponent spotdodges, it will send you into the spring and you can avoid an awkward situation.