questions about Ganondorf

[Darkseid]

Hi guys I'm pretty new to the smash scene and very new to smashboards.

I want to know what are Ganondorfs major flaws and how can he overcome them. Also what characters are his worst match-up s. (from worst to not so bad).

I also know he can ledge hop up air and re-grab ledge. I just can't get the timing down. any tips would be appreciated

 

[Renth]

Oh gosh.. Major Flaws.. I could write a book about them.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Best way to beat ganon: wait for a mistake and out prioritize. You really need to space your moves well so it's hard for people to punish you. The easiest example is jabing after l-canceled fairs. Wavelanding f-tilts and d-tilts (which can set up for u-airs) works well too. Another big flaw I hate as a former marth main is his t-rex sized arms. His grab range is small as **** and it's really annoying because his d-throw and u-throw set up for so many great things. So make sure you grab right. I know I used to run up to grab when I had an opening but I'd overestimate his grab range and miss a lot back when I first started playing ganon.

Matchups....sheik is definitely the worst and the one you should try to learn the best. Spacing is key. If you **** up the spacing of a fair for example, you could easily get out-prioritized by sheiks f-titls, which lead to chain grabs, fairs and basically gimps that good sheik players won't **** up, especially against a character like ganon which is p much a sheik's wet dream. At the same time, you need to be aggressive, especially with your punishes. If you manage to get a grab, DON'T WASTE IT. Ganon can chain grab sheik (it's harder than it is for sheik because eventually you'll have to tech chase and ganon's slow movement makes it harder to do) with dthrow, which you can eventually use to launch sheik offstage with a bair, fair or even uair depending on the percentages. When sheik's offstage, you really need to edgeguard correctly. This makes or breaks the match often. You either need to catch sheik offguard with a fair, bair or uair before she can up-b (or she up-b, hits you and dies because she's too far away) or if that's not going to happen you need to grab the ledge and force her to recover onto the stage. When this happens, either step up or ledgehop up. From here while she's lagging on the ground, you can either d-throw/u-throw to a bair/fair, or you can straight up shiffl a bair/fair real quick. Maybe at a low percentage, dair to bair/fair for the kill. But the main idea is to not let sheik grab the ledge because from there it's incredibly difficult to edge guard. If this happens, you need to keep your distance and out-wait her with well spaced moves. But even then, a good sheik will probably make it back into the neutral game with little difficulty. If you get too close, she'll just fair you and potentially catch you into a combo.

I'd say the next most important matchups to know are the space animals, marth, jigs, and then cf. I've found you can wing the peach matchup really well (even against good peaches if you're good) but you should obviously still know it. I just don't think it's as hard to do as the others. Like with peach, edgueguarding is literally just being incredibly patient and respecting peach. And if you do it right, there's not much peach can do about it. In fact, I'm p sure it's actually an even matchup lol. I mean marth is too but you gotta know some **** to play it right. I'm not going to go into detail on the other matchups, but there's plenty of info online about them all.

So ledge hop uair is giving you trouble huh. Well first are you ledgehopping by pressing the control stick down or to the side? And are you using the c-stick for uair? The easiest way to do it is by pressing the control stick to the side and then csticking uair. This way, you're DI isn't affected by anything. If you do it this way, the timing isn't too hard to get down.

Anyway, I have a feeling an expert ganon is going to come in and correct me on a few things, but I've been playing ganon long enough and watching enough videos to help out a new ganon player. Hope this helps you. Your questions are kinda vague and would require a longer answer to fully answer, but I feel as if what I've written is kinda the basics with competitive ganon.

 

[Darkseid]

X wanted x thank you for your response.

For starters I like to think of ganons grab range to be similar if not I identical to his jab range, which isn't too bad unless you are playing marth. So ways I like to think he can cope with this is to either lung grab (dash attack cancel grab) for more range, or jump cancel grab for faster more effective tech chases. Just make sure you are in that jab range area. Which also helps when chain grabbing sheik.

Sheik I think is not all too bad of a match up for ganon. I feel of you can keep your range and not get needled( ie. shield to wave dash out of shield) and maintain center stage, then she will have no option but to throw some moves at you. This is when you try and bait some moves out and punish. I feel ganon is far superior in controlling the air. She has faster moves and more priority with her moves I know but she has terrible mobility I'm the air. Which means in my opinion she must be close i'm order to hit them. Play the keep away game up and she will most likely approach on the ground. She may try and needle but that will only add percent because she can't follow that up. So shield dash back bait the grab and punish. Her tilts are good for her but if you are out of range she will just look like a ballerina and you should try and punish (ie wizards foot). Her dash attack is quick but very laggy and if shielded can lead to several stomps/ chain grab.
once sheik is in the air ganons aerial dominance will thrive and you tack on as much damage as possible before sending her off stage. Make sure to not give her ledge because this can set up another edge guard opportunity. I feel if she does grab ledge she is in control and it is best to retreat to center stage. Hopefully if you tacked on some damage she will have to approach and do it all over.

I will try your method of up air off the ledge as well.


renth

What would you say is his number one "major flaw"

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Actually ganon's jab range is larger than you think. Look at this comparison between the jab and his grab:

That's a sizeable difference not only in range but in speed. Also I've found the jcing grabs really doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference with ganon. I take that back, jcing grabs will make a big difference when you're chain grabbing. But it doesn't help a lot for getting the grab initially. I usually get the grab off of shield grabbing, but you have to be careful with this, especially against space animals.

If you don't think sheik is a bad matchup it's because you probably haven't played a really really good sheik yet. The matchup is objectively ganon's worst (you could argue fox is worse but it's so much easier for ganon to kill fox so idk), going off about 70:30 sheik's favor. As you say, maintaining center stage against sheik is of vital importance, but it's easier said than done. Watch the world's best sheik player stomp the world's best ganon player.

Notice how as soon as kage is offstage it's pretty much over. And kage's not even playing badly here. Sheik just has so much on ganon. Of course, you can watch plenty of videos of ganons ****ing up competent sheiks, but it's largely attributed to sheik players not knowing the matchup and making big mistakes.

Good luck with your ganon man.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

met you at apex and you were a pretty cool dude with some unique choices for a newer player during your matches. i was very satisfied. looking forward to seeing you at future events.

as far as matchups go, i feel his worst matchups are pretty obvious but that there are some minor details that haven't been explored yet in them (vs fox, falco, sheik, falcon). one matchup of the better characters that i feel ganondorf excels at, and possibly even wins, is vs peach (i'll probably be stoned to death for this remark, but whatever).

wanted seems to have covered a lot of stuff, so good stuff to him.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

one matchup of the better characters that i feel ganondorf excels at, and possibly even wins, is vs peach (i'll probably be stoned to death for this remark, but whatever).

actually i completely agree.

 

[Superspright]

actually i completely agree.

I totally disagree. Peach may go 50/50 or wins. Ganondorf has a lot of work to do to beat her. She can scoop under all his aerials with nair, uair, dash attack, and her grabs put him off stage, and he gets edge-guarded like a chump. I have no idea how you think that match up is even remotely winning for us.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I totally disagree. Peach may go 50/50 or wins. Ganondorf has a lot of work to do to beat her. She can scoop under all his aerials with nair, uair, dash attack, and her grabs put him off stage, and he gets edge-guarded like a chump. I have no idea how you think that match up is even remotely winning for us.

because she isn't as fast on the ground so you can space her really well. you gotta remember, you have the range on her. also you can edgeguard her pretty easily if she isn't hit high.

idk i've just had really good luck against peaches that are better than me.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

same. i've made all of the best peaches sweat (or even beaten) in money matches or tournament except for xif (haven't played him in recent years) and they're all a lotttttt better than me imo, so maybe they're all just terrible against ganondorf lol

 

[Superspright]

Peach without Ganondorf experience is not very scary. A peach WITH the experience is...Armada versus Kage. I'm sure we all remember that relentless ass whoopin'. You just can't really get in on her, and if she has a turnip in hand she can stuff you. When the match up is played right it's not 50/50. It's probably 55/45. It's very close. Ganondorf can use max range aerials to win the matchup if his spacing is good enough, but a good Peach is just going to make that impossible with turnips, and then it turns into a bunch of guessing games, but unfortunately Ganondorf can't really guess wrong. Peach has leeway to screw up, and she can wall harder than him. I've played a good Peach before, and some days he just is onto me. No amount of wavelanding, trickery, or spacing is going to save me from getting pushed into a corner, and getting stuffed by a float-canceled aerial, or a dash attack. We also can't edge-guard her high at all.

I doubt they are much better than you if they are losing a 50/50 matchup as you guys believe. By nature you should lose if they are much better playing an even matchup. That's like saying Gary Kasparov would lose to some expert level chess player when he doesn't handicap himself...of course he'd never lose.

Also, you don't really have the range on her. On the ground you lose, and in the air it's really about timing. If the Peach times it right she'll go right through your fair. I doubt any of you have played Peach's that are really crazy good. Peach has a lot of potential, and most don't even scrape the beginning of it. Only Armada actually fleshed out the character--and my friend who plays Peach uses a lot of those combos, and edge-guards. And when he actually is dialed in on me it feels abysmal. I jump and I die. I stay on the ground and I get grabbed or dash-attacked, or float-cancel pressured if I don't try to run away from it. If you get hit with any sort of float-canceled aerial it's always a jab->grab or dsmash or grab. You don't have the options she has, or the speed, or the combos. Not sure how you're beating people so much better.

You can't edge-guard Peach unless she commits to her umbrella and there are still things she can do to interrupt you on the way back. Most just lazily drift back instead of flickering it to interrupt you. If she goes into float I'd love to see how you edge-guard her. It's a guessing game at best. It's not as formulaic as the spacies--you actually have to get a read.

On paper it's definitely not our favor [do we even have shield pressure like she does? Nope.], and in real life it probably isn't either. And certain maps absolutely wreck us...like Dreamland, or FoD. She has better stage control, and better presence EVERYWHERE on the damn screen. I want you guys to play a Peach who really knows how to be aggressive and it's NOT an easy matchup; albeit the lackadaisical Peach is a cakewalk.

Anyone notice how Armada just runs into Kage fearlessly and then shields? Kage can't do anything about it. Armada just runs up to him and puts his shield up and punishes. What can Ganondorf do against that? Grab? It turns into a guessing game that doesn't really work...those were all frame traps that Kage was falling into because he was forced to answer Peach's pressure. You never feel pressured when you play those Peaches I'd imagine. Or at least not that pressured.

I mean if I used your logic I'd think the matchup was fine. I beat the best Peach on the Island out here in tournament, but he's still trash compared to what a Peach really could be.

Also, it's typical of a Ganondorf player to assume others are much better than them at the game because it helps alleviate the feeling of playing an awful character when one loses. You're probably a better player than all of those Peaches, and you're just holding yourself back playing Ganondorf. Just because someone is more technical doesn't mean they are better. I've played against tons of people who are more technical than me because of their character, but I beat them because of good decision making. If he at least had shield-damage he'd be amazing because then you could shield-poke or something. He just has no viable play-style that works except for max range poking, and mix ups.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

lol if you're gonna link a match from over four years ago as your primary example, then i'm counter linking DIS ****

 

[X WaNtEd X]

We also can't edge-guard her high at all.

i already brought up this point. but it's not really a big deal because even when peach di correctly, there aren't many occasions when she's hit high enough you can't reach her. but even when she is hit that high, you can follow her and land uairs pretty easily because they out range any attack she has coming down. the only time she can beat you out when this happens is if she happens to have a turnip when she's hit off stage. but that's not often the case and fortunately peach isn't a young link that can pull turnips in the air. matter fact, if she has enough time to pull a lot of turnips in the first place you're playing the matchup wrong.

I doubt they are much better than you if they are losing a 50/50 matchup as you guys believe. By nature you should lose if they are much better playing an even matchup. That's like saying Gary Kasparov would lose to some expert level chess player when he doesn't handicap himself...of course he'd never lose.

first of all i'm actually a ranked chess player as well so spare me the poor chess analogies. this is nothing like chess in that context.

when you factor in matchup knowledge and differing play styles, it makes perfect sense why peaches have trouble against ganons often (note: i'm not implying the matchup is in ganon's favor here, i'm simply pointing out an observation i've made from watching lots of youtube videos and attending tournaments). if we lived in a perfect world where everyone 100% knew every matchup the 50/50 matchups would be a test of who the better player is objectively. but that's not how things are.

Also, you don't really have the range on her. On the ground you lose,

ftilt and dtilt out range all her ground moves. speed and priority is a different story though.

and in the air it's really about timing.

agreed

If the Peach times it right she'll go right through your fair.

yeah well that's true of most characters. that's why you have to be really careful with fairs. peach has a hard time dealing with bairs and uairs though. bair is slower than her nair, but it out ranges and isn't slow enough like fair for her to be able to sneak in real quick all the time.

You can't edge-guard Peach unless she commits to her umbrella and there are still things she can do to interrupt you on the way back. Most just lazily drift back instead of flickering it to interrupt you. If she goes into float I'd love to see how you edge-guard her. It's a guessing game at best. It's not as formulaic as the spacies--you actually have to get a read.

if she isn't hit too high she's forced to commit with her umbrella eventually and same with the float, otherwise she falls to her death. thus it's a patience game rather than a guessing game.

Also, it's typical of a Ganondorf player to assume others are much better than them at the game because it helps alleviate the feeling of playing an awful character when one loses. You're probably a better player than all of those Peaches, and you're just holding yourself back playing Ganondorf. Just because someone is more technical doesn't mean they are better.

dude you're making a ton of assumptions about us. you have no idea who we've actually played or what skill level they are. the peaches i played and beat or at least did well against at the time were objectively better than me; more experience, better tourney results, etc. they lost because they lacked the matchup knowledge and weren't used to actually being edgeguarded. i don't think a player is better than me because of being more technical either. i legit don't know where you're getting that from.

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

I don't have much time, so I'll make this quick.

vs Peach
The only really good Peach mains I've played a lot are DoH and Baka4Moe. I do think that Ganon has a lot of strength in this matchup, depending on the stage. DoH has TONS more experience than I do, and he devastated my fox and falcon, but Ganon was a toss-up. We were going even, except on Final Destination, where I had absolutely 0 stage control. When Peach can get you in and keep you in the turnip sights, it becomes an uphill battle. I'd say that it is very important to stay as mobile as possible, throwing in a lot of wavelands and platform movement to trip her up. That was the one thing DoH commented on that was what made the matches so good. The moment you are hit by a turnip against a good peach, you will very likely end up off stage, so I'd say that avoiding those is critical.

I'll elaborate much more later.

 

[Superspright]

lol if you're gonna link a match from over four years ago as your primary example, then i'm counter linking DIS ****

Wasn't that the tournament where he decided to DL people first match, and then proceed to 2-1 them? Yes. It was. Look at the rest of the games. It's a wash.

[ EDIT] Sorry for double posting

 

[Superspright]

All I gotta say is, dash attack. Your ftilt/dtilt argument is invalid. You're just going to clank and be in a precarious position of having to react. Once Ganondorf gets his space invaded on he has to react properly or he dies. We aren't beating Peach with any Ftilts for sure, and probably not Dtilt if she's smart.

Smash is more like Chess than you'd like to believe. Chess is about attack, and counter-attack--about baiting, and exposing an opponent's weaknesses. At the very highest level people aren't even aware of the timings anymore (it's practically obvious at that point)--things just happen almost fluidly. They make decisions more than they worry or wait on what might happen. They are keenly aware of what will unfold after almost any hit or move.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

All I gotta say is, dash attack. Your ftilt/dtilt argument is invalid. You're just going to clank and be in a precarious position of having to react. Once Ganondorf gets his space invaded on he has to react properly or he dies. We aren't beating Peach with any Ftilts for sure, and probably not Dtilt if she's smart.

well that dash attack counter argument is very situational. and even if you do clash, you can fall back on jab. waveland/wavedashing those moves can also catch her off guard. i'm not saying ganon has nearly as good a ground game as peach, but it's not a hopeless battle.

also side b and down b can catch peach off guard if you use them correctly. it's very risky because if you miss you can count on being knocked off stage. i tend to throw side bs more often because peaches (and people in general) will often try to shield grab and fail because they don't know the mu.

Smash is more like Chess than you'd like to believe. Chess is about attack, and counter-attack--about baiting, and exposing an opponent's weaknesses. At the very highest level people aren't even aware of the timings anymore (it's practically obvious at that point)--things just happen almost fluidly. They make decisions more than they worry or wait on what might happen. They are keenly aware of what will unfold after almost any hit or move.

i wasn't saying smash isn't like chess. i just thought your analogy was poor. but overall the biggest difference between smash and chess is the character selection; you can't choose another set of pieces with different moves in chess. of course, black opening differ a lot from white openings at high levels of play, but it's essentially like dittos in smash.

 

[Superspright]

Dash attack isn't that situational. Jump, get dash attacked. Stay grounded, get dash attacked after you invade her space. You can't out run it, and you can't stuff it with uair, she just ducks it. It's her bread and butter. Her toast and jam. She's going to use it more than you would like to believe. I know what she can do to us if the character is in the right hands. She's hard to beat. I've played people who are much better than me as Peach, and they typically win the matchup if they know what Ganondorf can do, if they can't I dribble them and Kobe the hell out of them.

I use side-b to beat grab on Peach, but nothing else. It doesn't beat dash attack, or her jabs. Side-b is very risky, and wizkick is probably not the best option unless you read a turnip pull within range. I've been stuffed before for using it wrong.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Dash attack isn't that situational. Jump, get dash attacked. Stay grounded, get dash attacked after you invade her space. You can't out run it, and you can't stuff it with uair, she just ducks it. It's her bread and butter. Her toast and jam. She's going to use it more than you would like to believe. I know what she can do to us if the character is in the right hands. She's hard to beat. I've played people who are much better than me as Peach, and they typically win the matchup if they know what Ganondorf can do, if they can't I dribble them and Kobe the hell out of them.

I use side-b to beat grab on Peach, but nothing else. It doesn't beat dash attack, or her jabs. Side-b is very risky, and wizkick is probably not the best option unless you read a turnip pull within range. I've been stuffed before for using it wrong.

I believe jab can beat out dash attack. And sometimes you can even space it out with a fade away fair. And yeah, I wouldn't dair use side b or down b against dash attack. (Psssst dair is also great to punish dash attack heavy players)

 

[Superspright]

Go check the Peach frame data, at best we clank and she'll just jab again, or grab us. It covers her entire head, and arms. Full hop dair is good to catch the ending frames of it when she stands up, and down-B isn't a bad choice but it trades. If she uses it right you won't be getting away.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Go check the Peach frame data, at best we clank and she'll just jab again, or grab us. It covers her entire head, and arms. Full hop dair is good to catch the ending frames of it when she stands up, and down-B isn't a bad choice but it trades. If she uses it right you won't be getting away.

I was just playing a peach a minute ago from my school and I found that the fade away fairs worked wonders against spacing out her dash attack. Unless she got inside and dash attacked I could always react to it in time. And if she dash attacked on the inside I'd just shield grab.

 

[Superspright]

If you read the dash attack, yes you can do a lot. Without the read you will get your leg chipped at when she goes for the dash attack as you rise to start the fair/bair [if she actually reads your fade back aerials].

 

[X WaNtEd X]

the guy also told me that he didn't like to dash attack against ganons because they can just cc them and punish him before he can jab or do anything. so i guess there's that too. he prefers pressuring with nairs and i have to agree that's probably the more effective move against ganon.

 

[Superspright]

Dash-attack can be CC punished, but generally Ganon is moving. He has to call it right. He's just being obvious about his dash attacks. I'm almost certain he just dash dances, wavedashes back and then dash attacks. That stuff is very obvious. Out of a mix up it's amazing...out of a read it's too good. A lot of people here haven't played a Peach with a lot of Ganondorf practice, and I have for a bit. Dash attack isn't a be all end all, but in the right hands it's a very viable tool, and it scoops under all of our aerials if properly spaced.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Dash-attack can be CC punished, but generally Ganon is moving. He has to call it right. He's just being obvious about his dash attacks. I'm almost certain he just dash dances, wavedashes back and then dash attacks. That stuff is very obvious. Out of a mix up it's amazing...out of a read it's too good. A lot of people here haven't played a Peach with a lot of Ganondorf practice, and I have for a bit. Dash attack isn't a be all end all, but in the right hands it's a very viable tool, and it scoops under all of our aerials if properly spaced.

not really because he doesn't dash attack often. and that was his explanation for why. it seems pretty bad against most ganons and when i watch peach ganon matchups i almost never see it being used. it just straight up doesn't have a lot of uses in the matchup.

 

[Superspright]

It's not used right then, but typically nair is better and safer unless you wanna catch him on a retreating aerial. And I meant his setup for dash attack is probably very readable if you're catching it all the time. It's very fast.