Question for low(er) tier mains

NerFox

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#1
So I was wondering what the motivation is of people maining lower tier characters in a competitive environment. I personally love to see low tier characters being played and have success. I want to be a lower tier main myself. Since top-high tiers like Lucina, Cloud, Chrom etc all while being interesting on their own, get a bit repetitive in tournaments sometimes.

I was also wondering if it feels frustrating losing to a top tier just because of character difference? This is what holds me back from trying to main a lower tier.
 

KrownTown

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#2
For me it's just because the character I like the most happened to be considered low tier.

I don't get frustrated losing to high tier characters because character difference isn't the reason I'm losing.
I play in locals consistently and spend time grinding online and offline.
After all of this time I don't think I've ever lost a match because of character differences since so many mistakes are made on both sides of any game not at the top level.
I would think that if you get to the point where people are playing close to perfectly then character differences would matter.

So if winning a major is your main goal i think you probably should just play a high tier. Otherwise any character should be fine.
 
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#3
It could be that the person likes such character outside of SSB. It could be that the person wants a challenge. Or maybe the person wants to be recognized for being the best player of character x. It may very well be all three of these. I've mained Samus since day one of SSB. She was my first pick. I wasn't aware of tier lists at the time. That awareness came to the end of SSBM and beginning of SSBB.

Samus wasn't good in SSBB. She was low on the tier list, and at the time I wasn't confident in my skill and I became angry and frustrated when I'd lose. SSBB was a game where I didn't get enough experience in 1v1, except against my brother. My mentality was very bad. Since SSB4, I've done better. I've been able to get a variety of experiences and caught up to others in spite of not playing SSB4 up until April 2016.

Playing as a low tiered character can be frustrating because you don't have the options that other characters have. Even playing as Ridley as a secondary, I find myself struggling against projectile-heavy characters or combo-oriented characters. Yet, he feels right to me compared to Zero Suit Samus, even though she's much better. Anyway, if winning is what you want, depend on better characters. If you want recognition for beating top players, use a low tiered character.
 

Xelrog

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#4
Are you saying you're going to go out of your way to pick a main that's considered bad? Because that just sounds silly.

As with Krown, my main has happened to be garbage tier throughout most of the games. I just play him because I like the way he plays, is all. There's no deeper meaning to it than that, and I would very much celebrate if he were made into a high tier without gutting the feel of playing him. Hell, I'm already celebrating that this game's done him so much better than the previous.
 

Gamer Cube

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#5
Sometimes using a low-tier character, such as Little Mac, catches people off guard, because they aren't used to the matchup.
But usually I just play with the characters I play well with. It just happens that the character that I like the most and that I play with the best just happens to be low-tier.
Also, tournaments are meant to be places where a lot of skilled players meet and have fun fighting each other. Why use a high tier FE character if I'm not having fun doing it?
Anyways, I play with low-tiers not because they're low tier, it just so happens that the characters I play aren't ranked high by pro players. No tier list is truly accurate. All characters can be the best characters if the person playing them is good. what does it matter that a pro that doesn't play like me is bad at a character I play and therefore considers it low-tier? I just happen to be good at a low-tier.
Hope this answered your question!:b:


Edit: I don't exactly remember when Sakurai said this, but in an interview, he personally states that the win/loss rates for every character were around 50%. So I think that proves that the game is pretty balanced, and he said the statistics kind of disproved most tier lists, seeing as they were almost the opposite of what pro players thought were good and bad.
 
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staindgrey

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#6
For me, the only time tier placement becomes a factor in my decision making is when the character I like is the top tier and everyone plays that character. I don't want to constantly play dittos, nor do I want every player I come across to have more experience against my character than any other.

In SFA3 and SFIV, I was a Cammy main. I also played Ken, Sakura and then Juri, but really, I was a Cammy main. Then she dominated the scene for so long in SFV that I just kind of gave her up and became a full time Juri main instead. In DBFZ, my favorite character ever, Bardock, got in the game, but I could only play so many Bardocks before I took him off my main team in favor of Gohan.

I like feeling unique.
 

NerFox

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#7
Thanks for the replies! I think the reason I "want to main a low tier" is because it for me means an underused character. A character that suprises people and isn't too common. I would be proud maining a character that doesnt get the respect they deserve (for example Wii Fit Trainer and Mr. Game & Watch). I'm sorry if I sounded silly.

For example watching a match between let's say Duck Hunt vs Shulk would be far more fun to watch then Lucina vs Wolf. But maybe this is just me.

Maybe it is better if I forget about tiers and just pick whatever I enjoy? May it be high or low tier.
 

Jaro235

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#8
As someone who mained Yoshi, Pac-Man, and Palutena in Smash 4, all of which were pretty low on the tier list, I just simply loved playing as them. Yoshi is one of my favorite characters outside of smash and I loved his play-style in 4. He fit perfectly when I had problems with most of the other characters in the game. Pac-Man just appealed to me from the day he was announced. His style is just insane and there is so much that you can do with him. Palutena is the only weird one because at first, I had no interest in using her, but for some reason, I gravitated towards her more than any of the other newcomers. By the end of Smash 4, I started to get really good with her and I just had more fun using her and beating people with her than the high-tier characters. I even had a pro player ask me how I made her look so good in Smash 4! It was just satisfying using her and making my friends question whether she sucked or not.

Ultimately, I don’t base my characters around tiers, but by how much I enjoy using them. I will play as Melee Kirby over Melee Fox anytime because I enjoy playing as Kirby much more than Fox.
 

xfinity_kidd

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#9
I only play for fun and for the memes, and for me K. Rool is the embodiment of that fun. I just simply love to mess with people's brains with my big fat tum tum and if I lose, I don't care! It's all a matter of how you use characters- not how they sit in the tier list.
 

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#10
People don't pick low tiers, low tiers pick people. :secretkpop:

Anyway, for me it's the shiny magic. A gorl's gotta have the best sparkles and hand gestures, y'know sis?

I liked Zelda for her S+ Tier sass-game, but stuck with this version of Zelda due to the 10+ years of playing a character with the same flawed core. It's also super fun beating people with a garbo char.
 

Sean²

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#11
As someone who formerly mained lower tier characters, it was mostly because I couldn't click with any high or top tier character at the time. I picked the characters at first because I liked them, not for the weight they carry in the metagame (usually the meta was super young when I picked them anyway). But when it became obvious that they have a lot of struggles that others don't have, I just couldn't find a better character I enjoyed how you had to play them to be successful enough at a higher level to actually main them. So I stuck it out with my flawed characters for the most part. I lost a lot, but had a lot more fun than when I tried better characters. And yes, it can be really frustrating at times to get your character's main weaknesses exposed and exploited by a character clearly better than yours when you're on a mostly even playing field.

Beyond just enjoying the character's playstyle, I don't understand purposely searching for lower tier characters to play for the satisfaction of winning with a low tier. That satisfaction is usually a bonus, but it shouldn't a primary reason to play them.
 

Ez Quinn

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#13
As someone who has a dedicated discord server for people who play low tiers, I know a lot of people who play for a variety of reasons. Most were mentioned above
Knowing the character and playing their game outside of smash,
Wanting to be the best with this low tier char
Was previously higher but fell.

I have a combination of these feelings, I’ve mained d3 for all three games he’s been available and the jump from mid to low to mid has been interesting, but I still play him because I love him, and I recognize that he is by far not one of the best, but to me that doesn’t matter. So for whatever your reason, it doesn’t matter. Just make sure you’re at least going to have fun playing the char you pick. Or else there is no point in trying to competitively pick a low tier.
 
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#14
For me, I think I use dedede and Samus because they are who I liked using the most, and who I was the best at when I was still playing pretty casually, and as I got more competitive at the game, I decided to just stick with my characters.
 

Predatoria

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#17
I think a lot of people likely chose low tier characters not because they're low tier, but because they wanted to play that character or enjoyed the playstyle or moveset the character offered. Often times it is despite the low placement on a tier list that a player will continue playing a character, rather than because of it.

For my case, I wanted to main Ridley well before I had any idea where he'd land on the tier list. I'm definitely committing myself to doing my best with him despite his tier placement as well. I won't switch mains because I want to play him more than I want to play Peach, Pichu, Wolf, or any of the other high tier characters. I'd, to be brutally honest, likely sooner play another game than abandon my main for a high tier alt just to try and win at locals or tourney settings, if it became that frustrating of an experience to me to try to win at any cost.

I would love it if Ridley suddenly got buffed in patch 4.0 or something and became a bit higher in the competitive scene, but I'm thankful he's here, love playing him, and am happy to see him show up when he does at the competitive level.

Most low tier mains are likely character loyalists who want to play that character and succeed with them, tier lists be damned, as I've already read many other posts here that suggest as such.

To answer your question about it being frustrating to lose to higher tier characters. I'm not honestly sure yet. I've yet to really step out into the competitive scene beyond friend groups of mine that I regularly play with. I do know that when I do lose, I can often analyze my play and pick up on numerous errors, mistakes, or other things I'm simply doing poorly, doing wrong, or not doing at all that would enhance my gameplay well beyond what swapping characters would do for me. I never blame my character for losing a match for me. There's always a way to get better and improve and come back another day.
 
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Crystanium

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#18
Edit: I don't exactly remember when Sakurai said this, but in an interview, he personally states that the win/loss rates for every character were around 50%. So I think that proves that the game is pretty balanced, and he said the statistics kind of disproved most tier lists, seeing as they were almost the opposite of what pro players thought were good and bad.
I think Sakurai needs to let more time pass before making such judgments, which he said was "completely free of bias". I'm also curious as to what these results look like, and if their are statisticians who are gathering this information. There's another factor to consider as well, and that's how one character can deal with multiple characters. Where is the data that says character x is balanced with y and z? Or does Sakurai actually think all characters are close to 50:50?
 

Gamer Cube

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#20
I think Sakurai needs to let more time pass before making such judgments, which he said was "completely free of bias". I'm also curious as to what these results look like, and if their are statisticians who are gathering this information. There's another factor to consider as well, and that's how one character can deal with multiple characters. Where is the data that says character x is balanced with y and z? Or does Sakurai actually think all characters are close to 50:50?
It was a while ago, when people said K. Rool was completely broken, and they said that the character's win percent was only 51.9% and in Elite is was 48.9%. I actually found the source, here it is if you want to look at it. It's pretty interesting! https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...line-mode-victory-rates-character-usage-more/
 

Predatoria

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#21
I think Sakurai needs to let more time pass before making such judgments, which he said was "completely free of bias". I'm also curious as to what these results look like, and if their are statisticians who are gathering this information. There's another factor to consider as well, and that's how one character can deal with multiple characters. Where is the data that says character x is balanced with y and z? Or does Sakurai actually think all characters are close to 50:50?
I still do not understand why Elite Smash win rates would have any correlation with character tiers.

Win rates in an Elo-based matchmaking system will gravitate towards a 50% win rate for all skill levels, for all players, and for all characters, unless you're at a high or low enough extreme as to where the system has difficulty match-making you with opponents of whom are appropriate for your level.

The very fact that all characters stand around 50% win/loss in Elite Smash is just proof of it behaving as it should. This would be the case regardless of relative character strengths.

What would be a more interesting observation is what the average rating is for each character.


One must first assume this statement is true. "For the given dataset, player skill has no correlation with character choice." For a big enough sample size, this may very well be true, though I suspect (with no hard data to justify it, I caution) that higher performing characters actually are disproportionately chosen by higher performing players, which would only further increase the positive correlation between average GSP and character tier placement.

Once you assume this to be true, you can make another statement. "For the given dataset, character strength is the only variable driving that particular character's collective Elo rating."

If this is true (which it should be if we choose to assume player strength is randomly distributed across all characters, and that the sample size is large enough such that any variations in this distribution due to chance are insignificant), then Sakurai is looking at the wrong variable here.

He's looking at average win rate. If you have one particular character that's averaging 50% at the bottom of the Elo bracket, that is not akin to another character averaging 50% near the upper end. If we take note that Elite Smash Peach players have, for example, collectively 150,000 more GSP than Little Mac Elite players, something is astray in the balance of these two. Due to the very nature of this being an Elo-based matchmaking system, both will have a 50%'ish win rate, regardless of balance concerns, because the Little Macs will be at the lower end match-making against other lower tier characters, or other, lesser-skilled players of potentially higher tier characters, whereas the Peach players will likely be, on average, in a higher bracket matchmaking against other Peach players, or other fantastic players of lower tier characters! These numbers he grants are, quite literally, meaningless.

Players only have a non-50% win rate in an Elo system under two conditions:
1. The system is not capable of match-making this player with others of equivalent Elo rating due to lack of participants.
2. The system has yet to find a steady-state position to place this player, or this player is continuously improving against their competition.

This happens regardless of character choice.
 
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nudie mags

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#22
The main reason I see people playing lower tiers is because people generally aren't used to the MU. If you're good with a low tier, then you could win solely because your opponent doesn't know what's safe on shield, or something like that.

I main fox, so everyone I play knows they can stunt my recovery, and at around 90% im fishing for that aerial->upsmash finisher.

But for someone like plant, I only know to not get stuck in the haze, not much else aside from dodging the spiky ball. No idea if he has a kill confirm, or a kill throw, it's all a shot in the dark.
 

TheTrueBrawler

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#23
- The player may have different playstyle preferences.
- The player may not be good with any of the high tier fighters.
- The player may love their main outside of Super Smash Bros.
- The player may still love their former main from Smash 4.
- The player may still love their former main from Smash Brawl.
- The player may still love their former main from Smash Melee.
- The player may still love their former main from Smash 64.
- The player may still love their main even after they got nerfed.

There's many reasons why one would play a low tier over a high tier.
 

NerFox

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#24
Like mentioned earlier, I also think low tier mains might have an advantage over high tier ones due to the fact that the matchup might be unfamiliar for the high tier. For example I think more people have experience fighting Lucina players than fighting Duck Hunt players. But when the meta evolves and the games gets older, dedicated skilled players might know every matchup I suppose.
 

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#25
Like mentioned earlier, I also think low tier mains might have an advantage over high tier ones due to the fact that the matchup might be unfamiliar for the high tier. For example I think more people have experience fighting Lucina players than fighting Duck Hunt players. But when the meta evolves and the games gets older, dedicated skilled players might know every matchup I suppose.
That's pretty much why Zelda seemed so good at first and is now slowly tumbling down the tier list.

Apparently, slow glass cannons with precision-based hitboxes/risk isn't a high tier archetype. Who knew? :secretkpop:
 

Ez Quinn

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#26
That's pretty much why Zelda seemed so good at first and is now slowly tumbling down the tier list.

Apparently, slow glass cannons with precision-based hitboxes/risk isn't a high tier archetype. Who knew? :secretkpop:
Same for k.rool, at the beginning of the game he was thought to be a top tier cuz he had “busted recovery and super armor”.

Now that the meta has evolved people know how to deal with his armor, recovery, and can abuse his speed and get around his projectile spam.
 

Gamer Cube

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#27
I still do not understand why Elite Smash win rates would have any correlation with character tiers.

Win rates in an Elo-based matchmaking system will gravitate towards a 50% win rate for all skill levels, for all players, and for all characters, unless you're at a high or low enough extreme as to where the system has difficulty match-making you with opponents of whom are appropriate for your level.

The very fact that all characters stand around 50% win/loss in Elite Smash is just proof of it behaving as it should. This would be the case regardless of relative character strengths.

What would be a more interesting observation is what the average rating is for each character.


One must first assume this statement is true. "For the given dataset, player skill has no correlation with character choice." For a big enough sample size, this may very well be true, though I suspect (with no hard data to justify it, I caution) that higher performing characters actually are disproportionately chosen by higher performing players, which would only further increase the positive correlation between average GSP and character tier placement.

Once you assume this to be true, you can make another statement. "For the given dataset, character strength is the only variable driving that particular character's collective Elo rating."

If this is true (which it should be if we choose to assume player strength is randomly distributed across all characters, and that the sample size is large enough such that any variations in this distribution due to chance are insignificant), then Sakurai is looking at the wrong variable here.

He's looking at average win rate. If you have one particular character that's averaging 50% at the bottom of the Elo bracket, that is not akin to another character averaging 50% near the upper end. If we take note that Elite Smash Peach players have, for example, collectively 150,000 more GSP than Little Mac Elite players, something is astray in the balance of these two. Due to the very nature of this being an Elo-based matchmaking system, both will have a 50%'ish win rate, regardless of balance concerns, because the Little Macs will be at the lower end match-making against other lower tier characters, or other, lesser-skilled players of potentially higher tier characters, whereas the Peach players will likely be, on average, in a higher bracket matchmaking against other Peach players, or other fantastic players of lower tier characters! These numbers he grants are, quite literally, meaningless.

Players only have a non-50% win rate in an Elo system under two conditions:
1. The system is not capable of match-making this player with others of equivalent Elo rating due to lack of participants.
2. The system has yet to find a steady-state position to place this player, or this player is continuously improving against their competition.

This happens regardless of character choice.
Also, I would not argue over this much because the article was published a pretty long time ago and Sakurai, in the spirit of not spoiling it, didn't go into detail about each character. I just found it interesting that people raging about high tiers winning every game isn't much of a problem, and people mostly rage because they lost to THAT character.
 

TheTrueBrawler

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#29
Same for k.rool, at the beginning of the game he was thought to be a top tier cuz he had “busted recovery and super armor”.

Now that the meta has evolved people know how to deal with his armor, recovery, and can abuse his speed and get around his projectile spam.
Yeah, people need to realize that just about all new characters aren't going to stay broken. I even accurately predicted where King K Rool was going to be placed on the tier list by the time we start seeing DLC. People will find ways to play around almost every fighter without changing their fighter if they try hard enough, and it didn't take much to work around King K Rool. That doesn't mean there are no exceptions though. Someone's got to be top tier after all.

Looking at Meta Knight and Bayonetta when I say that. Not in Smash Ultimate (obviously).

Fun fact, my brother and a couple friends IRL still insist that King K Rool is top tier even though none of them are capable of beating me while playing as him despite some of us being roughly the same skill level.
 

nshoes

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#31
I have the most fun with Sheik. Way more than Pichu. So I’m sticking with her because that’s why I play this game - to have fun. At least she’s high tier. I feel bad for the Little Mac mains lol
 
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#33
Who? Sheik? Because I've heard very mixed opinions on her this game.
She's got great frame data, but has a harder time killer than Joker does WITHOUT Arsene. lmao

So playing her is essentially the same as trying to win with death by 1000 papercuts. Which is really unfair to Sheik. I don't understand what they were trying to do with her balancing. But given how badly Sheik/Zelda are balanced, I just assume they have no idea how to properly balance anyone who's named Zelda or is Zelda in disguise.

They overnerfed Bayo and Sheik, then left Mario/Marth/Lucina/ZSS/etc alone. I really don't understand what their thought processes were.
 

nshoes

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#34
Who? Sheik? Because I've heard very mixed opinions on her this game.
Yep, and they all have some truth. 3.0 really helped her with her fair hitbox, which is a bread and butter. If you've never seen Void's Sheik, check it out. He really displays what can be done with her at the top level.

She's got great frame data, but has a harder time killer than Joker does WITHOUT Arsene. lmao
I don't know if I fully agree with that. Joker without Arsene feels absolutely terrible. The past few weeks I have been labbing Sheik and really focusing on bouncing fish confirms. It's paid off. I think most people don't put in the study time with her and write her off pretty quick. Note I do know she has her (major) downsides and that she is not top tier; but people dog on her way too fast.
 

Gamer Cube

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#35
She's got great frame data, but has a harder time killer than Joker does WITHOUT Arsene. lmao

So playing her is essentially the same as trying to win with death by 1000 papercuts. Which is really unfair to Sheik. I don't understand what they were trying to do with her balancing. But given how badly Sheik/Zelda are balanced, I just assume they have no idea how to properly balance anyone who's named Zelda or is Zelda in disguise.

They overnerfed Bayo and Sheik, then left Mario/Marth/Lucina/ZSS/etc alone. I really don't understand what their thought processes were.
Honestly, though. My casual friend mains her and I can get F-smashed at 100% and as long as I'm in the center and not Jigglypuff, I can survive. He is very good at her. While she may not be good at getting a kill, she can still hold her ground. She is extremely fast, so her combo game is good. She can also go offstage a little bit, so she can gimp kills.
 

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#36
Honestly, though. My casual friend mains her and I can get F-smashed at 100% and as long as I'm in the center and not Jigglypuff, I can survive. He is very good at her. While she may not be good at getting a kill, she can still hold her ground. She is extremely fast, so her combo game is good. She can also go offstage a little bit, so she can gimp kills.
She works for her kills in a game where many good characters either get setups or a fast (or safe) move can kill at 100%-120%. But much like Zelda, she has an easy time vs big bois with poor frame data and can just keep hitting them with things until they die. So at least they'll never take that away from Sheik/Zelda... Unless they buff everyone but Sheik/Zelda. Which is a huge possibility ofc. :^)
 
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#38
Well, for me at least, I find tier lists a waste of time. Competitive Smash should be about trying to win a tournament with your best character, not just playing a character because he/she is high-tier. I used to main Peach and Zelda back in the day, I didn't win all the time, but I enjoyed playing anyways because I was having fun playing a character I enjoy.

Also because I thought Zelda was cute, but we don't talk about that
 
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