Question about Fox's pressure game

[Tobb99]

Ok so I'm not that good at frame data, frame advantage and stuff, so I want to ask how good Fox's pressure game is in PM. In melee it was kind of broken, Shine coming out frame 1 and having intangibility frames as well. My question is how good Fox's pressure game is in PM, with Shine having no intangibility frames and with the added grab armor in PM? For example can you shield grab a nair>shine, drill>shine or multi-shines if you time your grab perfectly?

 

[Denjinpachi]

you can still do fundamental pressure efficiently, such as shine grabs. However, if you slip on the timing, yeah you can get grabbed outta shine in this game. Like, not phantomed, but fully grabbed with the armor of a grab. You can still pressure people with the shine, and if they mistime their grab as well, they can still get hit by the shine if they are more than likely just spamming it. So, your pressure is a lot more of taking advantage of different situations that can lead off of stray hits, from like bair or nair shine, then getting the up throw up air, or whatever you can manage. Shine gimps are more match up based on how efficient they are because some characters have better recoveries, and the knockback on shine is changed as well. so you pretty much have to go off on a real bait and punish type of game as far as how you'll be utilizing pressure. Not too different from melee fox, but you have to be either completely efficient with your pressure, or completely thorough with your punishes. Ideally, you want both, as basic as that sounds, but spacies are among the characters that are a little more subject to this than some because of their weight, and almost given punish games that other characters have on em.

 

[Tobb99]

So the differences between Melee and PM Fox is that it's slightly worse in PM. In that if the opponent has a great timing they can shield-grab it, and you have to have better timing, you can get away with it more in melee. Am I correct?
Also I wonder, do you have less frame advantage in PM than in Melee, or is it the same?

 

[Kaeldiar]

tl;dr "Shine can get grabbed in PM, but not in Melee, because of the intangibility being gone. Not because of any grab armor. Other shield pressure works the same, because grab armor is a myth...Frame advantage is the same. Shine > grab, Shine > nair, etc. work the same."

Common misconception about grab armor. It was NERFED from Melee to PM. Grabs are BETTER in Melee. Look at the following quote from ssbwiki. Grabs in PM work as they do in Brawl:
"In Super Smash Bros., Melee, and Brawl, when a grab connects with a character that also has an active hitbox, the character that attempted the grab will override the hitbox completely (taking no damage or knockback) and proceed with the grab. In Brawl, the same character takes the damage from the hitbox but not the knockback, giving the illusion of 'grab armor.'"

So if a hitbox and a grab would take effect at the same time...in Melee, the grab straight up beats the hitbox. In PM, you take damage, but still get the grab.

Back to Fox and multishining on shield...it's slightly worse, BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF INTANGIBILITY. Shine would beat grab in Melee because of the 1 frame of intangibility, not because of any "grab armor." All of Fox's other shield pressure would be exactly the same as in Melee. The sole difference is "Shine can get grabbed in PM, but not in Melee, because of the intangibility being gone."