Question about Falcos dair to shine

[papa Socke]

Hi,
i recently started playing smash and and am currently training some basic tech skills.
I try to improve my timing on l-canels at the moment and feel like i am getting the hang of it slowly.

If i hit a floatie charcater with dair (lets say samus or marth, since my friend mains them), should i be able to connect with shine at any percent?
I dont know if its my timing on fastfalling and shining (assuming i got the lcancel), or if dair to shine just doesnt work anymore a specific percentage.

In the second Case, what would that percentage roughly be for samus and marth and what would be good follow ups/ alternative approaches, once they reach that mark?

Any help would be appreciated
Sry about my english, this is not my native language.

 

[SAUS]

It definitely connects starting from 0 against all characters, but there's a lot of very small factors that can play a role in preventing it from working.

1) Dair too early and it gives them enough time to shield before the shine comes out.

2) If they are in the air when they get hit, they will just land and can act almost immediately. To test this out, get a friend to float with peach just above the ground (hold down then press and hold y to float right above the ground with peach - hold R/L as well to immediately shield when possible) and hit them with a dair. Observe how quickly they can shield afterwards.

3) Falco's positioning can sometimes be awkward and cause him to land too far away. This is especially apparent if you dair marth's arm when he is in the lag of a forward smash. He pretty much jumps back when you hit him.

4) Smash DI. If you don't know what that is, tapping the stick in a direction as you get hit will cause you to move slightly in that direction. High level players purposely do this to make it so your shine will miss after your landing. You can see good smash DI by fighting level 9 CPUs and jabbing them. Just watch how far they go!

5) Crouch cancel. Crouching before you get hit reduces the knockback and stun of any attack by 30%. This is enough for some characters to hit Falco before his shine can come out, but it gives all characters at least the ability to shield before the shine comes out.

Most likely you are just suffering from 1). You could also be missing the L-cancel, missing the fast fall, or waiting too long to shine without realizing it.

 

[papa Socke]

Thanks for the detailed answer, i will try to delay the dair

At 0 percent it works More often anyway
But assuming i execute dair to shine almost perfectly , will there be a percentage shine just wont Connect anymore, cause they get knockedback too fast?
If thats the case, what would these percentages be roughly fighting marth or samus

 

[SAUS]

Around 40-50 your opponents will get launched into the air a bit. I don't know if shine will still connect at this point, but I'd try to start up-tilting them at this percent range. The main thing is that if you dair them out of the air at this point, they can tech out of your combo. You have to do a different aerial or get ready to tech chase.

 

[papa Socke]

OK ty, didnt know that.
So if i wanna Combo i gotta Start with shine?
Should i approach with dair at all above 50% or just hit them with Nair and try to get them offstage?

Thank you for for taking your time to explain all this to me btw, i guess its kinda obvious to most ppl.

 

[SAUS]

NP!

You don't have to start combos with shine. Dair is almost always a good combo starter. After you cannot reach them with shine, you can start to up-tilt after the dair and it will put them in a nice spot to combo (sometimes you can just up-tilt again lol). Dair against floaties at very high percents (like well over 100) sometimes cannot lead to anything, though. It becomes very dependent on other factors once they start to get knocked down by the dair, so I can't really go over them unless you have a more specific scenario.

If they are in the air and dair will let them tech, doing a different aerial is a good option. Again, it is dependent on a lot of factors (character, stage position, percent, etc.), so there's a ton of different answers for different scenarios. You just gotta experiment.

IMO you should start with getting dair -> shine to connect at lower percents consistently before worrying about all the different scenarios that can happen.

 

[papa Socke]

i have just always been attempting to shine after dair at any percent, so i will try to stop me from doing so at high percentage and uptilt instead

i guess its just practice to get the timing down now


there is one last thing i would like to know for now, even though it doesnt really effect me that much, since i should delay dair anyway.
If i do shffled dair, and do not delay it, will i be hitting with weak dair?
i read ntsc dair is less strong after te first half of the animation, while pal dair just doenst spike anymore, if you hit late.
i am playing pal version and noticed, that i didnt spike anymore at fullhoped dair, but is it even possible to hit with weak dair, if shuffled?

 

[SAUS]

Yes it's possible to hit with weak dair on a short hop. It's just a small window, and the opponent has to somehow not get hit by the first part. This can happen if:

1) They are invincible for the start of the move but not afterwards (EX: they just did a tech on spot and you did a dair when they still have tech invincibility but they are vulnerable before you land).

2) They get into range after you start the dair. This could happen if you are jumping sideways at them and dair before being in range, or maybe while edge guarding fox if you do a shuffled dair and their up-b moves them into it.

I don't know the exact frames, but the strong hit only lasts for the first few frames of dair and the rest of the hit boxes are all the weak version.