Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[ociplaC]

Speaking of G&W's Up-B (as of v3.5), a lot of the good PM players here in WA get upset at his hitbox coming out on Frame 1. Then again my playstyle involves a copious amount of defensive and offensive Up-Bs :D

Surprisingly, they're fine with him retaining his Double-Jump and being able to act out of it (except airdodge) in general.

Hope these things don't get changed too much in v3.6...

 

[jtm94]

Flaco pillar combos are literally better than GnW UpB shenanigans and harder to react to.
I will actually be incredibly hurt. I'd probably be pushed to use Sheik more.

 

[UltiMario]

I hope PMBR would at least have enough common sense not to nerf characters worse than Fox, especially when Fox is unlikely to get nerfed past PAL + Non-invincible Shine for "Melee reasons".

 

[Shoto]

I'd hate if they took away the DJ after Up-B. But as long as he has something to make up for it, like some more bacon spam -- I'm good.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I get the stupidest 9 setups and I love it

 

[Shoto]

I used to always use judgement, and now I hardly use it. I'll try more, cause it's such a funny move. Also entering a 100 man tourney tomorrow. Reflex, Fatality, and Flamin' Roy are gonna be there. Last time I got knocked out by Flamin' Roy, but maybe I'll stand a chance this time.

 

[jtm94]

Jealous of your 100 man tourney, wish I was there.
Things will be dry on my end for a while because finals and summer coming up.

I don't use hammer too much seriously.

 

[Shoto]

It was a blast. I got a match on stream. I'd like some critique, so I'll post it in the Skype group later today if I can remember. I've learned a bit from the tourney, and hopefully I can put it in use at Shuffle VII.

 

[Jechtire]

Just got 4th at a 74 man PM regional going all GnW. I beat some good players like Cactuar, Frycook, Son2 and Jewchainz!

this character is gonna get nerfed lol

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I'm pretty disappointed, that tournament at the end of this month that I was going to got postponed until winter. Was going to be my first tournament.

Oh well, gotta wait more to actually see how I do against other people.

 

[jtm94]

I took a set off the #1 seed yesterday.
Good stuff @ Jechtire

 

[Shoto]

I could see GnW recieving a small nerf. I wish they would change him slightly so that others view him as an "actual" character. But even if they don't, just bounce their ass and move up.

 

[jtm94]

Who cares. I already dealt with people complaining about Zelda. Just play the game and move on, whatever happens happens. I've tried my best to educate others on GnW and I myself don't have any issues facing him. It's a shame people like Messinyc and NZA ran their mouth about our character and it makes us look like bad people.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Even if they nerf G&W, I'll still play him

 

[jtm94]

I can't say for sure if I will or not, but I can always try.
You should never play fearing nerfs just because stupid people are stupid and vocal about your character.
You should always accept the current version as 100% final and play as if you MUST conquer every character in the game as they are.

 

[NinthWonder]

Hey I finally got on stream.

Check out http://www.twitch.tv/nigamonp/b/659743653 at around 2:52:00.

Feel free to comment. c:

 

[AlmightySo]

Got first at this long island tournament http://challonge.com/PM_Singles_HSS_5_16_15
:D

 

[jtm94]

Ahhh, I have too many sets to watch and I've been super busy.

 

[AlmightySo]

wasnt asking anyone to watch i posted the bracket link lol
Youtube vids arnt up yet

 

[NinthWonder]

Here's the actual match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aECvfg5cBRQ

 

[felipe_9595]

Here's the actual match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aECvfg5cBRQ

Watched the set. Yoou need to recover high more often, an Ike shouldnt be able to edgeguard you.

 

[cruised]

Got first at this long island tournament http://challonge.com/PM_Singles_HSS_5_16_15
:D

I've never won against Malachi. Props to you!

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Mr. Game and Watch makes me happy

Since I use this controller now, I've had to map my side taunt to the X button so I can taunt cancel. (Since taunt canceling is crucial to PM Mr. Game and Watch). This actually has improved my taunt canceling in the middle of battle anyway since the button is right there.

Good thing I only use Y to jump anyway

 

[NinthWonder]

I admittedly did some jank stuff because I hit him with a lot of fairs thrown out in neutral so I assumed he didn't know the match-up well enough. My recovery was pretty bad and my combos weren't exactly coming together, but I felt like I could have done a lot worse.

I have a Wario secondary but I didn't feel like pulling him out against Ike.

 

[jtm94]

Here's the actual match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aECvfg5cBRQ

Need to save double jump to try and fake out eruption. That move is actually stupid.

Stop going for those uber hard reads. You upsmashed in neutral in a few occasions and missed a tech chase because you preemptively charged it. Go for guaranteed punishes that you can get on reaction, get grabs and punish techs away with dacus.

Bacon is really good at tripping up Ike. If he decides to quickdraw he will need to either jump or commit to a move in order to cut through it. Just be wary if he starts running under it and use it from a safer distance.

Continue working on movement. You dash dance well on occasion, but sometimes you do the fake dash dance of really fast dashing back and fourth. Think of it as ice skating and you want to slowly take space away from your opponent if they decide to give it up. It isn't purely just to be able to react and punish.

 

[NinthWonder]

Some of the smash attacks were mis-inputs, but most of what you're saying is definitely valid. I'm still working on movement and incorporating more bacon into my play.

 

[AlmightySo]

I've never won against Malachi. Props to you!

You in the Tristate area bro? And beating malachi wasnt the highlight of the tournament this jv 5 was lol. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAVerylxi2Y&feature=youtu.be

 

[AlmightySo]

Need to save double jump to try and fake out eruption. That move is actually stupid.

Stop going for those uber hard reads. You upsmashed in neutral in a few occasions and missed a tech chase because you preemptively charged it. Go for guaranteed punishes that you can get on reaction, get grabs and punish techs away with dacus.

Bacon is really good at tripping up Ike. If he decides to quickdraw he will need to either jump or commit to a move in order to cut through it. Just be wary if he starts running under it and use it from a safer distance.

Continue working on movement. You dash dance well on occasion, but sometimes you do the fake dash dance of really fast dashing back and fourth. Think of it as ice skating and you want to slowly take space away from your opponent if they decide to give it up. It isn't purely just to be able to react and punish.

i agree with most of this. Also chair is so good against ike. He will have to respect it alot and cant quickdraw off of the
ledge. And in neutral bacon is really good but throw out the chair when you think he is quickdrawing

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

How do you guys feel to use Bacon into DACUS? If used right it can be deadly for anyone being all jumpy.

 

[Metmetm3t]

How do you guys feel to use Bacon into DACUS? If used right it can be deadly for anyone being all jumpy.

That's one of those options that looks good if it works, but can get you punished. Since bacon doesn't have a lot of hitstun you have to make a prediction and just throw the DACUS out there, but at the same time in order for the bacon to reach dacus distance it has to be out there for a long time so the opponent literally has to make a mistake. So you are betting that the other guy sucks, which is generally not the best gameplan. Also you should know that Up-Smash isn't necessarily even all that good of a punish for that kind of mistake, unless it's going to kill you are getting 21% but you could do more damage with some simple combo like UAir>Fair.

Something like this does have interesting applications if you can get them to shield the bacon though. For one, Up Smash does a lot of shield damage just off of it's raw power, but also if you have conditioned them to forget about DACUS you could potentially catch their OoS option with a big surprise.

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

That's one of those options that looks good if it works, but can get you punished. Since bacon doesn't have a lot of hitstun you have to make a prediction and just throw the DACUS out there, but at the same time in order for the bacon to reach dacus distance it has to be out there for a long time so the opponent literally has to make a mistake. So you are betting that the other guy sucks, which is generally not the best gameplan. Also you should know that Up-Smash isn't necessarily even all that good of a punish for that kind of mistake, unless it's going to kill you are getting 21% but you could do more damage with some simple combo like UAir>Fair.

Something like this does have interesting applications if you can get them to shield the bacon though. For one, Up Smash does a lot of shield damage just off of it's raw power, but also if you have conditioned them to forget about DACUS you could potentially catch their OoS option with a big surprise.

Sounds good to me.

Can i ask this obvious question with an obvious answer? Even with the 3.5 tweaks, is Game & Watch still the holder of the strongest Up Smash?

 

[Shockbound]

Can i ask this obvious question with an obvious answer? Even with the 3.5 tweaks, is Game & Watch still the holder of the strongest Up Smash?

-Up Smash
--Damage decreased from 23 to 21. KBG increased from 96 to 100.
--IASA increased 39 -> 44.

In terms of knockback at 0% on a character with a weight of 100, G&W's uncharged Up-Smash (5221 kb) is barely outclassed by Lucas's uncharged OU Up-Smash (5245.2 kb). They're the strongest single-hitting Up-Smashes in the entire game by an overwhelming margin, but if Up-Smashes that hit multiple times are considered, Captain Falcon's uncharged Up-Smash gets rather close (5156.4 kb) while Ganondorf's uncharged Up-Smash (6301.6 kb) easily outclasses everything.

At 100%, G&W's uncharged Up-Smash (19627 kb) becomes quite a bit stronger than Lucas's uncharged OU Up-Smash (18909.2 kb). Ganondorf's uncharged Up-Smash (18061.6 kb) falls off here, but the sweetspot of Pikachu's uncharged Up-Smash (21262.3 kb) and the hitbox of Ike's uncharged Up-Smash near the apex of its swing (20116.4 kb) become a lot more powerful.

In case you were asking about damage, I've compiled a list of the amount of damage that each characters Up-Smash is capable of.
[collapse="All uncharged Up-Smashes listed by highest potential damage"]Successive hits with the same damage are put in parenthesis (damage * amount of hits) to keep things less cluttered.

41%, Ganondorf [22 + 19]
32%, Bowser [20 + 12]
30%, Lucas [with OU]
30%, Sheik [17 + 13]
27%, Ivysaur [9 + (1 * 18)]
22%, Dedede
22%, Ice Climbers [11 + 11]
22%, Ike
21%, Captain Falcon [8 + 13]
21%, Mr. G&W
20%, R.O.B. [4 + 16]
20%, Roy [(2 * 4) + 12]
19%, Peach
19%, Pikachu
18%, Donkey Kong
18%, Samus [(3 * 4) + 6]
18%, Snake [4 + 14]
18%, Wario [(2 * 5) + 8]
17%, Fox
17%, Link [4 + 3 + 10)
17%, Lucario [8 + (1 * 3) + 6]
17%, Luigi
17%, Mewtwo [(1 * 7) + 10]
17%, Olimar [using Purple]
17%, Squirtle [3 + 14]
17%, ZSS [3 + (1 * 10) + 4]
16%, Charizard [5 + 11]
16%, Pit [(3 * 2) + 10]
16%, Sonic [2 + 14]
16%, Yoshi
15%, Diddy Kong [(2 * 2) + 11]
15%, Kirby
15%, Mario
15%, Marth
15%, Toon Link
15%, Wolf
15%, Zelda [(1 * 11) + 4]
14%, Falco
14%, Jigglypuff
14%, Ness [2 + 12]
12%, Meta Knight [4 + 3 + 5][/collapse]

 

[Shockbound]

Oops, double post

 

[Shoto]

Honestly enough Gatling Combo is the easiest 31% you can get at the start of the match on practically any character. Also I used to only be able to DACUS about 70% of the time, but now it just smoothly comes out every time. I haven't really been practicing it, but I guess my fingers just found the correct timing. I wish that I could use the dash attack grab option more, but mainly when it occurs it's an accident.

Is it possible to down throw techchase with DACUS? I tried but they can always shield too quickly.

 

[Shockbound]

The following is an explanation of how G&W can achieve the various angles of his own Up-B.

G&W's Up-B relies on the standard 352 preset angles (I'm unsure about the exact number, so please correct me if you know the answer) found in airdodges and most other Up-B's.

Spoiler: Visualization of where each angle supposedly lies

However, since G&W can only go upwards using his Up-B, the angles attainable on the bottom half of the control stick are simply a reflection of the upper half. All points in between these two identical angles are also treated as viable territory for the control stick to occupy when selecting that angle.

To make things even more confusing, G&W's Up-B will only register the first "non-neutral" directional input that is made in the 8 frames after the move is initiated. "Non-neutral" in this case refers to every position the control stick can be in that lies outside of the space between the up and down positions.

Spoiler: G&W's angle 'zones' for the control stick

• Dark blue is considered to be "neutral".
• Green-blue is the area where all of G&W's various intermediate angles lie. The extremity of the angle is dependent on how close to the greener area the control stick is on the exact frame that the control stick exits the "neutral" zone. As such, the angle you get is dependent on how fast you can realistically move the control stick in a single frame.
• Gold is the area where G&W achieves his most extreme angle. Keep in mind that you have precisely 1 frame to move the control stick here if you want this angle.
• The black lines represent the boundaries where G&W performs his special moves if B is pressed as the control stick is in that section. The topmost section is where Up-B can be executed; keep in mind that if the control stick does not return to the "neutral" position after the first frame of startup, G&W will be locked into that angle for the rest of the move.

It is possible to select angles more freely using the C-Stick without needing to develop lightning fast control stick finesse. The way the C-Stick handles angles is a lot more lenient than what the control stick requires due to the vastly different zone layout.

Spoiler: G&W's angle 'zones' for the C-Stick

• Dark blue is considered to be "neutral". Keep in mind that both sticks must stay in their "neutral" positions in order to remain uncommitted to any angle.
• Green-blue is the area where all of G&W's various intermediate angles lie. The extremity of the angle is dependent on which toothpick-sized segment the C-Stick is occupying on the frame that it exits the "neutral" zone.
• Gold is the area where G&W achieves his most extreme angle.

 

[Sushiroks]

@ Dakpo , your replays from BR17 are disgusting. Let the other people play lol

 

[Dakpo]

@ Dakpo , your replays from BR17 are disgusting. Let the other people play lol

Nahhhhhhh I need material for a combo video

 

[NinthWonder]

Didn't do well in bracket recently but I beat a Snake player in a MM. Seems as though as soon as GnW gets inside he wrecks him, but approaching can be difficult.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I've gotten to the point where I co-main G&W with Yoshi, and I think that's a great pair to have for PM.

 

[jtm94]

I think GnW destroys Snake.
Does Yoshi cover Marth??