• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Premium
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
5,518
Location
Columbus, Ohio


Yep, for all the 10s of those across the nation who plan to play Mr. Game and Watch in Project M, this is the thread you're looking for. Have your questions and hopefully I (or any other of the 10s of GnW players) give the appropriate answers for those inquiries that you may have. This thread can also serve as a General Discussion of the character as well.

[collapse= Question and Answer Segment] The first question I think any newbie would ask is:

[What are the differences between Melee GnW and GnW:M?]

A: Well... most, if not all of them are: right there on the tin. But, to run them down anyway...

[What is GnW:M's aerial frame data?]
A: From the GnW 2.1 > 2.5 thread courtesy of Magus:
Landing Lag: 8/17
Shield Stun: 9
Advantage: +1


F-Air
Landing Lag: 12/25
Shield Stun: 9 Strong, 4 Weak
Advantage: -3 Strong, -8 Weak


B-Air
Landing Lag: 10/20 (9/19 after landing hit)
Shield Stun: 3 (landing hit)
Advantage: -6 (landing hit)


U-Air
Landing Lag: 9/18 (8/17 after landing hit)
Shield Stun: 4 (landing hit)
Advantage: -4 (landing hit)


D-Air
Landing Lag: 10/20 (9/19 after landing hit)
Shield Stun: 4 (landing hit)
Advantage: -5 (landing hit)


Neutral-B
Landing Lag: 0 (no impact landing. cancels directly into wait)
Shield Stun: 6 Pan, 7 Panless (4 Hitlag + 3 Stun)
Advantage: +6 Pan, +7 Panless


-Panless happens when you land on the same frame the pan would swing and food come out. You don't swing the pan but the food is still thrown.

More to be added later, naturally.[/collapse]

Please join our GnW Skype Discussion: Add "Juushichi" on Skype for details/access.​
 
Last edited:

trash?

witty/pretty
Premium
Joined
Jul 27, 2012
Messages
3,452
Location
vancouver bc
NNID
????
What's his most notable differences from 2.1? Only big one I can point out is the lower numbers for judgement aren't the absolute worst now.
 

Metmetm3t

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
1,124
Location
Sunny Mobile, AL
I'll just import this from smashmods.

Observable Changelog said:
Definitely True:
- Jab 2 comes out and ends much faster
- dash attack travels further and the later hitbox lasts until the end of the move so you can combo afterward if you hit late
- bair has more ...hitlag? at higher percents. It no longer cuts through opponents like water
- uair has a second hit that comes out on landing (6 damage)
- dair's metor sweetspot stays out through the whole move
- uSmash now does 23-31 damage (up from 20-27)
- the frying pan sweetspot on B does 9 damage instead of 6. (13 damage if the bacon hits them as well)
- upB now does 8 damage when you hit early then 6 near the apex (up from a constant 6)
- upB has a better horizontal range
- Game & Watch can now release an unfinished bucket by tapping B again while it's out
- SideB changes:
#1 - added 10 damage to G&W
#2 - does 3 damage instead of 4 but causes daze on grounded opponents
#3 - does 4 damage instead of 6 but causes poison for up to 8 more damage. also instantly breaks shields
#4 - changed angle to be a semi spike
#5 - now does 5 hits for 6 damage a piece (30 total). The hits themselves seem to work better to prevent easy DI and punish.
#6 - does 14 damage (up from 12)
#7 - does 16 damage (up from 14) heals 10 damage instantly and drops the apple (10 more health)
#8 - does 20 damage (up from 9 WOW)
#9 - still does 32 damage (no change from 2.1)

Probably True:
- nair might have more knock back growth
- dair's sourspot might have more knock back growth
- downB may have less endlag
- Judgement #6 may have increased knock back growth
- Judgement #7 may have increased knock back growth
- Judgement #8 ice physics may have been reworked to keep the opponent in longer
 

FireBall Stars

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
Messages
714
Location
Brazil, South America
Correction, the meteor sweetspot for G&W's dair doesn't stay out for the whole move, it still has the other high angle knockback it always had, however, the landing hitbox for the move is now a meteor.
 

Metmetm3t

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
1,124
Location
Sunny Mobile, AL
No the Meteor Sweetspot is there, it is a SWEETSPOT though. You have to hit with G&W's hand. or you will get the normal knockback.
 

Master WGS

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 25, 2004
Messages
1,735
Location
Canal Winchester, OH
Didn't bother going back and testing this the night we think it happened and I don't have my Wii around to test at the moment - does G&W have trouble jumping from the ledge on the right side of Yoshi's Story? I think he just... drops if you hit Y or X when trying to jump from the ledge.
 

dettadeus

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 13, 2010
Messages
1,954
Location
drowning in pixels
Yeah. If you hold forward when you do it you can land just above the stage, allowing you to waveland or do any grounded move almost instantly from the ledge.

Dumb bug but I could see it being useful.
 

YellaFeva

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
31
Location
Florida
I am very very satisfied with Game and Watch in 2.5 after playing many friendly and tournament matches. His side-b is extremely useful now making side-b side-b etc. a legit combo lol. I'm excited that my main can now match up to any character.
 

Stunts

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
312
Location
Training Room
I've always thought judgement #9 had less lag when hit on shields(from 2.1). Either this is incorrect or there is a damage threshold on the move. I dont have the stats with me.
 

dettadeus

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 13, 2010
Messages
1,954
Location
drowning in pixels
Just felt like mentioning that if you freeze an opponent near the edge with the 8 hammer, knocking them off the stage while they're still frozen pretty much guarantees death.
You can knock them off with the 7 and 9 hammers for sure, possibly Usmash or Dsmash. Basically you need horribly strong horizontal knockback without fire to thaw them out.

Also Uthrow > Hammer is guaranteed on every character at certain percents.
 

Metmetm3t

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
1,124
Location
Sunny Mobile, AL
Just felt like mentioning that if you freeze an opponent near the edge with the 8 hammer, knocking them off the stage while they're still frozen pretty much guarantees death.
You can knock them off with the 7 and 9 hammers for sure, possibly Usmash or Dsmash. Basically you need horribly strong horizontal knockback without fire to thaw them out.

Also Uthrow > Hammer is guaranteed on every character at certain percents.
Pretty gimmicky, especially since the opponent will trying to mash out. I think your better off going for as much straight damage as possible with Up Smash or few Fairs.
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Premium
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
5,518
Location
Columbus, Ohio
Yeah, the bucket change is pretty important in matchups like Falco and Mario, I think. Lucas somewhat as well, if you can get them off of you long enough.
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Premium
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
5,518
Location
Columbus, Ohio
Pan hit has always been amazing.

Do you know if you can put up a guide/etc like Guru did in the Diddy boards and Ryoko did in the Zelda one, Magus?

It'd be pretty great if you could.
 

trash?

witty/pretty
Premium
Joined
Jul 27, 2012
Messages
3,452
Location
vancouver bc
NNID
????
Judgement seems far too gimmicky to run with in the long run, especially when GnW has so many consistent kill moves that there's not much reason to roll the dice, especially when there's still a chance for it to bite back.
So what's exactly the multiplier for the bucket, anyway? Testing it a bit with falco's laser shows that it's not just multiplied from a whole number, since it went from 3% originally to 10% coming out of the bucket.
 

Magus420

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
4,541
Location
Close to Trenton, NJ Posts: 4,071
If I get a chance to sure.

Bucket has a multiplier of 2.8, cap of 20 per absorb, and will always do a minimum of 10 damage when released. 1 laser does 10 because of the min damage, and 2 lasers does 16.8.
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Premium
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
5,518
Location
Columbus, Ohio
Oil Panic has a lot of disjoint. I would like to think that that's not all that gimmicky, lol. No more than any of his other kill moves, haha.
 

dettadeus

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 13, 2010
Messages
1,954
Location
drowning in pixels
He said judgement hammer, not Oil Panic. :p

If you get a grab at low percents, going for Uthrow > Hammer is probably the best option. You have a 1/9 chance (1/7 chance most of the time) of killing the opponent regardless of their percent, same chance of dealing 10 to yourself, 5/9 (again can be out of 7 depending on your last two hammers) chance of a still-good hammer hitting (the 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8) and the remaining 2 and 3 which aren't stellar in the air.

At higher percents you might as well go for a Nair/fair finisher (or dthrow techchase > dacus/jab-reset smash) but when you can't kill directly off the Uthrow you might as well roll the dice and see if you can take a free stock.
 

Magus420

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
4,541
Location
Close to Trenton, NJ Posts: 4,071
You could get a good 30+ with like u-air(s) -> up-b -> f/d-air instead though. Near an edge hammer would be the better choice I think if you have access to 4/6/8(if no stage underneath them for loldeath)/9 in particular. Also because up-b combos can't go too far offstage or you can kill yourself.
 

Metmetm3t

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
1,124
Location
Sunny Mobile, AL
At higher percents G&W's combo game basically dissolves, so the probability starts to swing a little closer to Judgment's favor.

Assuming your options are Fair or Judgment on a >90% opponent:
Fair is 16 damage and decent kockback

Meanwhile Judgment:
9 is an instant kill
8 is at least significant damage (assuring next hit kills)
7 will probably kill
6 will probably kill
5 might set you up for a Nair
4 might kill
3 has a pretty slim chance to let you combo
1&2 would be bad

Considering that the last two numbers aren't possible:
Best case scenario, you have amazing odds of being better off than you would have using Fair; at worst it's a fifty-fifty.

Judgment is, of coarse, always a gamble, and is definitely not a utility knife to be applied to all situations. And until this version, I would never have recommended it in ANY situation, but now there are places where it can (and probably should) be applied.
 

trash?

witty/pretty
Premium
Joined
Jul 27, 2012
Messages
3,452
Location
vancouver bc
NNID
????
I've been trying to play GnW more often, and honestly -- I can't really trust judgement at all. I don't see the utility in a move where the difference between getting a kill or getting punished is completely out of my control, and once you get to a certain point in skill level, you want everything you do to be within your control. I'd much rather just teach myself to get Nairs more consistently.
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Premium
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
5,518
Location
Columbus, Ohio
Teach yourself to do both.

darkmetroid, you're going to APEX, right? With Ryker?

We need to get some games in.
 

ItsRainingGravy

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
763
Location
Alabama
Switch FC
SW-5960-2538-9300
I don't see the utility in a move where the difference between getting a kill or getting punished is completely out of my control.
There is still some control. With all of Judgement's options being useful to varying degrees (besides 1 & 2), you can pretty much "store" a useful Judgement if the last number was an unfavorable one, since Judgement never selects the same number twice.

I love how G&W actually has Specials, now.

Oh, and DACUS Helmet is a nice bonus, too.
 

dettadeus

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 13, 2010
Messages
1,954
Location
drowning in pixels
There is still some control. With all of Judgement's options being useful to varying degrees (besides 1 & 2), you can pretty much "store" a useful Judgement if the last number was an unfavorable one, since Judgement never selects the same number twice.

I love how G&W actually has Specials, now.

Oh, and DACUS Helmet is a nice bonus, too.
judgement actually cannot do the previous 2 numbers a second time

so if you get a 1 and then a 2 you're pretty much golden for your next judgement hammer
 

Magus420

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
4,541
Location
Close to Trenton, NJ Posts: 4,071
The beginning of a match starts him off with 1 as the most recent and 2 as the one before that, so you can't get a 1 or 2 on 1st use, and can't get a 1 or the number of the 1st hammer use on the 2nd use.
 

dettadeus

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 13, 2010
Messages
1,954
Location
drowning in pixels
The beginning of a match starts him off with 1 as the most recent and 2 as the one before that, so you can't get a 1 or 2 on 1st use, and can't get a 1 or the number of the 1st hammer use on the 2nd use.
which would explain why i'm so good at getting 9's right off the bat
 

MattNF

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Messages
1,867
Location
Florida
I know people will probably hate this idea, but what if they made his judgement hammer non random?

Not really sure how that could work though. Maybe have it do a higher number judgement depending on how much damage you recently did or the percent damage you have at the moment. (level 9 judgements at +100% for comebacks, anyone?
 

Metmetm3t

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
1,124
Location
Sunny Mobile, AL
darkmetroid, you're going to APEX, right? With Ryker?

We need to get some games in.
I was planing on it, but I can't make it because classes start that Monday.

I know people will probably hate this idea, but what if they made his judgement hammer non random?

Not really sure how that could work though. Maybe have it do a higher number judgement depending on how much damage you recently did or the percent damage you have at the moment. (level 9 judgements at +100% for comebacks, anyone?
Well you're not the first person to come up with that idea, but the core problem with that idea is that it's not in the spirit of the move. The iconic 9 comes with an emotional response that only really works if it's random. Of coarse, there's also the balancing issue. Any time you have a move that could potentially destroy an entire stock without a lot work, it needs to have a risk involved.

Overall judgement never needed to be a good move, competitive play is always going to favor using moves with predictable outcomes because not being in control of your character only makes it harder to control your opponent. Like I said before, not every move is a utility knife. For now, G&W seems alright with the moves he has.
 

trash?

witty/pretty
Premium
Joined
Jul 27, 2012
Messages
3,452
Location
vancouver bc
NNID
????
Reasonably, though, it makes sense. Especially given how the rest of his specials were retweaked to work nicer.

Why not have it be a move you have to build up? It would count up with each successful hit, with 1 being small damage (~3%) and 9 being able to kill with KB at around ~40%+ instead. It'd require strategy on your part, and you could get a massive payoff from spending the time to do it (assuming it resets on death of course).
 

Metmetm3t

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
1,124
Location
Sunny Mobile, AL
I think we should move on from discussing major redesigns of Judgement. If the PMBR wanted to do something like that to the move they've had plenty of opportunity to design and test that out. As it stands they like the move the way it is, and I, personally support that. Let's not forget that Judgement is hardly the bottom of the barrel, this game still has moves like Ganondorf's UTilt and Jigglypuff's Up-B.

edit: also as of P:M 2.5b:
"G&W's ledge jump doesn't instantly land on the right edges of certain stages"
 

SFA Smiley

The SFA King
Joined
Jan 19, 2010
Messages
2,640
Location
Virginia/Arizona
He still sucks. Marth is impossible. Why is Gdubs so weak. Like Bowser is strong... and heavy and has range (although mainly because of his size)

But Gdubs is sorta strong... I guess. but still light as a feather and has disjoints but marth has better range and KO power and hitstun and whine whine whine whine whine.

I dunno, I played against a lot of marth today and admittedly I'm not good at PM but dude you can just look at these characters and its like:

GW doesn't have a single move to poke marth with, I whiffed a dsmash and got standing grabbed. Even when I do poke, my moves are negative on hit. Like I'd hit with something and marth would recover before I could do anything. Bair doesn't do ****. I feel like roy. Our techchases are still harder than D3 and Snake's and they're probably better than Gdubs too.

whine whine whine

I'm sticking with Bowser, i'm getting combo'd the hell with Gdubs anyway, might as well [ick the character with superarmor, weight, invincible Up-b THAT COMBO'S INTO ITSELF, and better rewards off of hard reads.

/mycharactersuckswahhhhhhhh
 
Top Bottom