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Puff's Future Without Patches!!!

Jiggly

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It was just confirmed in Sakurai's famitsu article that there are no more patches. Puff's only touch was in the first patch that got rid of her rollout instant turn bug. Do you think puff still has potential despite the lack of buffs? Do you think puff didn't need buffs? This is the place to discuss the future of the puff metagame!
 

Wintermelon43

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She needed buffs, but will defitenly be at least upper mid if somebody good starts doing stuff with her (Most likely a new player)

People say she is doomed, but I don't think that's true at all
 

MisterDom

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It's a tough question to answer, and though buffs would've helped, I don't think they would've done much to change a tier list position.

Unless we got more reliable and easy-ish kill setups, we were always bound to be at a low spot. Are kill options are rollout (considered worthless by some, which I disagree with), bair (difficult are very high level play sometimes), nair at high-ish percents, edge guarding (not as reliable for a chunk of the cast), laggy smash attacks, and rest. Rest is the most controversial part of Jigglypuff's placing as I stated before for SO MANY DAMN REASONS!!!!! It deserves a different post/thread. If these were buffed, it wouldn't matter. If we got more kill options, it would've helped tons though!

You could argue that a throw combo would help tons, and I don't think a combo throw would be even 80% reliable at certain percents, and you might also bring up a kill throw, but that would be so broken for Jigglypuff's current throws to change to a kill throw. Throws I don't think would've helped much and were out of the question...

Less lag is probably the second best buff we could've got other than more kill options. It might create more combos, and overall would make things safer.

In the end, I don't think any buffs that we probably would've got in one patch would've helped much, and so, it brings me to closer to my verdict.

Jigglypuff's possible good future never could've been met with buffs... Ever!

So... Can she be mastered? Can she win A NATIONAL?

Theoritically, YES!

But the odds say NO!

Any game can be won, don't get me wrong, but the risk factor of Jigglyouff makes our chances lower in each matchup. The odds of keeping up a good mindset and dealing with the greatest players and winning matches your most likely not going to win are very small. Someone who is great can eliminate many of those bad odds, but the odds will always be against us and with our opponent.

I do believe she can do great things, win tournies, and even compete against the top tier... Kinda. But even a regional would have lower chances for us assuming your region is any good.

She didn't need buffs. Even though it's more risky to play her, and harder to maintain a high rank, I believe her potential spikes among any other with an optimized punish game.

EDIT: I also don't think its the end to patches. I believe we'll get one more justvlike how we got 7 DLC characters instead of only 1 like promised. Don't give up hopes!

Also, Bayonetta and Corrin I think have a chance to be nerfed just a little bit. If there was another patch, I'd guess that they would be changed.
 
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Managomous

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Honestly, if this is the last patch then I have to quit Puff :/

I'm a bit depressed/disappointed with this game honestly, and even moreso now that Corrin and Bayonetta are released as powerful as they are. I originally bought this game with the impression, that unlike Melee, they would balance the game out and invest in time doing that. Now I kind of feel like I was taken for a fool considering we once again have a tier list which will limit the amount of diversity within this game. I mean, I don't know. Just really sad at the state of Puff and now knowing that we get what we get with her, I don't know if it's worth going with and not just jumping on the band wagon and accepting a high tier character (Much like people pretty much have done in Melee).

Sadness
 

Stickmanlolz

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Honestly, if this is the last patch then I have to quit Puff :/

I'm a bit depressed/disappointed with this game honestly, and even moreso now that Corrin and Bayonetta are released as powerful as they are. I originally bought this game with the impression, that unlike Melee, they would balance the game out and invest in time doing that. Now I kind of feel like I was taken for a fool considering we once again have a tier list which will limit the amount of diversity within this game. I mean, I don't know. Just really sad at the state of Puff and now knowing that we get what we get with her, I don't know if it's worth going with and not just jumping on the band wagon and accepting a high tier character (Much like people pretty much have done in Melee).

Sadness
Dude, just pick up a secondary to use on occasion and help us further the metagame for Puff to survive. Although I do understand your disappointment, the time to complain is pretty much behind us now :/
 

Managomous

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Thanks for the pick me up. Yesterday was a pretty low day considering Puff got destroyed by Corrin at ~60%. I mean, just stuff like that is really demotivating. (Also knowing Bayonetta can kill some characters at 30 is like.... Really?).

I will still continue to use Puff to learn some stuff, but as a competitive player I don't think there is much hope for her honestly. I feel like this patch kind of broke the game, but maybe that's just me being salty lol.
 

me quazzy

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A kill throw would be nice. Up-throw and back-throw are the best we have in terms of kill throws. Forward throw is good for reading DI and attacking at early percents. Down throw is okay. You can follow up with up air but you have to read DI and the air dodge.
Smash attacks have atrocious frame data. The only good one being forward smash. Down smash is in the middle of good and bad. I like it but it's hard to land and has more bad frame data not counting the small intangibility on the legs. Never talk about up smash. Never.
Specials are alright. Rollout is a good kill move and provides extra shield pressure. It's way too punishable though with its end lag and predictable movement. I'd feel a little better if we could hop with it charging like Sonic's side special. Pound is probably one of Puff's best moves. High priority, high knockback, a nice amount of active frames, great shield pressure, and knocks opponents directly upwards. The only downside I can think of is that it's not safe when on the ground but Jiggs isn't supposed to really be on the ground at all. Sing is fine as it is. I like how we're able to use it offstage if we can snap the ledge. It's hard to really mess up with using it too. Rest is decent. I'm always going to say it needs to have it's Melee knockback come back.
I can't really complain about Puff's jab or tilts. They're all pretty good. Up tilt is alright. Early percents you can follow up according to DI. Forward tilt is decent. Nothing special but nothing bad. Down tilt has decent knockback and can kill some characters around 170% or later. Not that impressive but it has its uses. Frames are bad though. Jab can setup to other moves with the first hit if you space it good.
Arials are good as always. We could use a little better frame data and end lag on them but we're fine as is for now. Up air is pretty crappy though. Can't really hit anything with it unless I'm directly below him where the move starts and I read DI and air dodge perfectly.
The only thing we could ask for is a reliable kill throw (it doesn't need to be like Ness' or Villager's back throw), an up smash that doesn't make me want to die on the inside, a way for rollout to be mixed up (hopping or something), some added knockback for rest, and a small fix to up air. We have a very limited toolset so there isn't much we can do to change the meta. We have to adjust to the meta and hope that Jigglypuff can do alright in it.
 
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Jiggly

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A kill throw would be nice. Up-throw and back-throw are the best we have in terms of kill throws. Forward throw is good for reading DI and attacking at early percents. Down throw is okay. You can follow up with up air but you have to read DI and the air dodge.
Smash attacks have atrocious frame data. The only good one being forward smash. Down smash is in the middle of good and bad. I like it but it's hard to land and has more bad frame data not counting the small intangibility on the legs. Never talk about up smash. Never.
Specials are alright. Rollout is a good kill move and provides extra shield pressure. It's way too punishable though with its end lag and predictable movement. I'd feel a little better if we could hop with it charging like Sonic's side special. Pound is probably one of Puff's best moves. High priority, high knockback, a nice amount of active frames, great shield pressure, and knocks opponents directly upwards. The only downside I can think of is that it's not safe when on the ground but Jiggs isn't supposed to really be on the ground at all. Sing is fine as it is. I like how we're able to use it offstage if we can snap the ledge. It's hard to really mess up with using it too. Rest is decent. I'm always going to say it needs to have it's Melee knockback come back.
I can't really complain about Puff's jab or tilts. They're all pretty good. Up tilt is alright. Early percents you can follow up according to DI. Forward tilt is decent. Nothing special but nothing bad. Down tilt has decent knockback and can kill some characters around 170% or later. Not that impressive but it has its uses. Frames are bad though. Jab can setup to other moves with the first hit if you space it good.
Arials are good as always. We could use a little better frame data and end lag on them but we're fine as is for now. Up air is pretty crappy though. Can't really hit anything with it unless I'm directly below him where the move starts and I read DI and air dodge perfectly.
The only thing we could ask for is a reliable kill throw (it doesn't need to be like Ness' or Villager's back throw), an up smash that doesn't make me want to die on the inside, a way for rollout to be mixed up (hopping or something), some added knockback for rest, and a small fix to up air. We have a very limited toolset so there isn't much we can do to change the meta. We have to adjust to the meta and hope that Jigglypuff can do alright in it.
dsmash is faster than fsmash though lol
 

me quazzy

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dsmash is faster than fsmash though lol
Yeah but it's almost impractical because you have to be almost as close as possible for it to hit. F smash has some range to it at least.
Edit: Just checked it. It's faster by 1 frame. First active frame for d smash is the 49th frame and for f smash it's the 50th frame. Still terrible frame data either way.
 
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OmegaStriker

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To me, out of the official bottom tier characters, I feel like Samus and Jigglypuff have enough potential to climb out of there, even without more buffs in Samus' case and buffs in general for Jigglypuff.

The problem I have with Jigglypuff not getting buffs is that virtually everyone who is a returning character got changed somehow for the better. Even characters like Ganondorf got some good changes, though that didn't help his placement much. Whether or not it's the last patch, we should stay strong and try to evolve the character ourselves (though I definitely prefer she stays a Jigglypuff than change into a Wigglytuff). :4jigglypuff:

Jigglypuff is one of the characters in need of changes for sure: low knockback on aerials at low percents meaning that she can't really start a big combo game early, lightest weight in the game (doesn't need to change, but it does feel like her endurance problems are not purely proportionate to her abilities), and for some reason they let her keep that shield jump she's had since 64 even with possibly the weakest shield in the game combined with the increase in shield stun. That said, I feel like Jigglypuff's great aerial movement, clever Rest gameplay, trampling dash attack (to deal with projectiles), and somewhat still good edgeguarding helps her a lot more than being bottom 3.
 

Jiggly

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Yeah but it's almost impractical because you have to be almost as close as possible for it to hit. F smash has some range to it at least.
Edit: Just checked it. It's faster by 1 frame. First active frame for d smash is the 49th frame and for f smash it's the 50th frame. Still terrible frame data either way.
Dsmash is active frame 14, where Fsmash is 16. Also, Usmash has decent range and has better kill power than Mario's. It's far from horrible.
 

me quazzy

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Dsmash is active frame 14, where Fsmash is 16. Also, Usmash has decent range and has better kill power than Mario's. It's far from horrible.
My bad on the numbers. The range on f smash makes it a much better option. The only cases I can see using d smash would be if an opponent rolled into you but wasn't in the hit box for rest. That or spacing purposes.

Up smash I have to disagree with. It's range is basically what would happen if you moved d smash's hitboxxes to Puff's head. Opponent has to be breathing down Puff's neck or right above her. The worst part though by far is that there are no invincibility frames on up smash. Unlike Mario, Dr Mario, Luigi, Bowser, and Peach (just to name a few because most of the roster has invincibility frames on up smash), Puff is left wide open during the move and after. The hitboxxes and lack of invincibility frames make it horrible. It's not the worst up smash. Corrin's up smash has barely any damage and isn't too good with launch power. Captain Falcon's up smash is pretty bad too since it has no invincibility frames and can barely hit anyone unless you're breathing on him.

Not the worst up smash but it's still pretty bad.
 
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KniteBlargh

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He has apparently shown it off. We just need to find it....Somehow:glare:


I'm not even mad, NOPE NOT AT ALL!
Didn't know about this. Did he make any mention at all about what it involves? I've been looking through videos and have yet to see anything outside of what we already know (or what's mentioned in the rest strategies), but... Guess I'll keep watching. LOL

I did have something to say about the metagame, but I think it would have been too touchy a subject, so I'll just say that I do see potential in Jiggs even if this has been the last of the balance patches, but it's not going to come without obvious trials.
On a side note, I wouldn't have minded a more reasonable kill throw (up throw, probably). Rest being as tricky as it is to guarantee, and our grab range not exactly being spectacular, it wouldn't have seemed OP to me for one throw to kill a lot earlier than any of them currently do. However, even without, Jiggs is a blast to play, and I hope all of us can make the most of the tools we have in our own little way.
 
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