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Puff is out of place

0RLY

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I've held off on writing this for a long time now, but with 3.5 over the horizon I can't help but get this out there. Also there's like no activity in this board so this might give you something to think about.

Puff is an example of poor design. I will begin with the tl;dr.
1) At her best, she controls the game and forces your opponent to play by her rules. Nobody will combo each other and you will play footsies until somebody dies.
2) Rest is way too good and overcentralizes the character.
3) At her worst, she will be able to do none of the above due to her lack of options in neutral.

Have it my way 1)
Due to Puff's gravity and mobility, she is extremely difficult to combo effectively for majority of the cast. I'm not ignoring the few that are still very good at comboing lightweights, but for majority of the cast this is true. This forces other characters to play by Puff's rules, of poking each other to death. This makes her matches extremely uninteresting to watch, much like brawl.

There are also cases where Puff can successfully combo, the infamous wall of pain. However, even this is uninteresting. It requires the use of only 1 attack used consecutively, is extremely easy to do once you see the opportunity, and looks identical to what she is already doing in neutral: back to back bairs. The rare case where a non wall of pain combo occurs is limited exclusively to fast faller match-ups. These match-ups, which were frequent in melee, are much more spread out in PM and thus limits Puff's capabilities against the large remainder of the cast. This makes Puff boring to play with and against in many match ups.

You may consider Puff's lightweight, floaty stats to be one of Puff's strengths. Rather, I see it as a byproduct of her downfalls. Since Puff is a character with very low combo potential (a side effect of having Rest), she is "balanced" by giving her opponents lower combo potential due to her stats. Project M is a game with much greater combo potential than it's predecessors (except for smash 64 I guess). By having a character designed to do the opposite, leaves her out of place.

As for Rest 2)
On paper, this move looks balanced. In practice, it still looks balanced. In actuality, it's too good. I could describe why, but I trust the Puff boards already understand how their moves work. The reason why Rest appears balanced is because it's on a crappy character. If Rest were on almost any other faster character, it would clearly be too good. Many characters in PM have high combo potential, but Puff can't have high combo potential because Rest is too good. Rest is good because Puff is bad. Puff is bad because Rest is good. Which one of these statements is true? The fact that the question needed to be asked in the first place is the problem.

The issue is that if Puff gets buffed in any way, it may improve Puff's combo potential, which therefore improves Rest. Imagine Puff having a guaranteed dair to Rest against everybody. Now what if some unintended buff allowed Puff to dthrow Rest everybody? If Rest gets weakened to compensate, then all the Puff mains get sad. Puff seriously can't be fixed without something happening to this move. Finding some sort of middle ground will be extremely challenging as it will be impossible to please everyone. There is no 50%+ majority here, there's too many opinions on what is right. A complete overhaul would be my personal fix, but that would just anger all the melee enthusiasts. To be fair, melee enthusiasts don't play as much PM as actual PM players so I believe our community would stay intact over such a change.

Options 3)
PM has made a ton of characters viable simply by making most moves good in neutral. It keeps everybody on their toes, since just about anything could work. In melee, players usually had 3 solid neutral options: some sort of fast attack such as a shffl, a jc grab, or a projectile. In PM, almost every ground attack, aerial, or even special are viable in neutral. If I looked at Diddy, I would have a harder time identifying which of his moves AREN'T usable in neutral. Puff has remained pretty much identical to melee, and thus pretty much only has bair for use in neutral.

This makes Puff extremely predictable. Of course, Puff could always elect for a weaker option, such as a grab. Unfortunately, Puff has no ground speed or range to speak of. For comparison's sake, it's like asking a Ness player to approach without jumping, but worse. Puff is in desperate need of new options, such as jump cancel on rollout. It turns Puff into a mini-Ike, but could be just what she needs to keep the mixups going. Something she sorely lacks.

Wrap-up
Puff grinds the game to a standstill because her stats make her difficult to combo and combo with. She is difficult to combo with because she has the move Rest which is too good and it should not be easily comboed into. This leads to most of her moves being awful to make up for Rest, which leaves her with poor options which makes her bad in neutral. Since she is bad in neutral, she is forced to grind the game to a standstill to make up for the rest of her moveset by playing footsies for 8 minutes.
 

GeZ

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I'm just going to kick in that people with a background in other fighting games, myself included, don't think footsies are boring. Puff has very distinctive problems, but I'd rather see her game improved than overhauled.
 

CyberZixx

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I like footsies too but not when It is footsies that don't threaten a punish like many match ups vs puff. I find Puff obsolete in this game as Kirby fills her role better.
 

Kaeldiar

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I like footsies too but not when It is footsies that don't threaten a punish like many match ups vs puff. I find Puff obsolete in this game as Kirby fills her role better.
In Project M, I have to agree. Kirby functions as a better Jigglypuff without Rest, but with better disjoint, and loads more options. Puff's DESIGN is fine, but in EXECUTION it doesn't work as well. Jigglypuff could compete in Melee, because her spacing/zoning abilities were up to par with all of the viable cast. But with Link, Toon Link, Marth, Roy, Wario, Diddy, Samus, Pit, etc. all having good or better spacing/zoning, Puff just can't keep up. She could easily gimp or get rest set-ups on a good majority of the cast, but she just can't do that in P:M.

As far as what to do about it? I don't know, haha
 

0RLY

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I'm just going to kick in that people with a background in other fighting games, myself included, don't think footsies are boring. Puff has very distinctive problems, but I'd rather see her game improved than overhauled.
The thing is. Puff isn't good enough at footsies to be the footsies character. I have already touched upon why improving just one aspect of puff drastically impacts the other aspects.
 

GeZ

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The thing is. Puff isn't good enough at footsies to be the footsies character. I have already touched upon why improving just one aspect of puff drastically impacts the other aspects.
I agree that her footsie game isn't good right now, I just think saying everyone finds it boring is a bit much.
 

Une

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I'm just going to kick in that people with a background in other fighting games, myself included, don't think footsies are boring. Puff has very distinctive problems, but I'd rather see her game improved than overhauled.
Yeah except footsies in 2d fighters usually doesn't just involve one move 90% of the time
 

SSS

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There are three things that make Puff good in Melee.

1. Spacing and zoning with bair (etc).
2. Superior offstage edgeguarding.
3. Resting.

Now for the reasons why she is bad in Project M. It's not that Puff changed or was nerfed, but the game changed and was buffed around her.

1. The amount of characters that can outspace and outzone Puff is ridiculous in this game. In Melee, hitboxes tended to be tinier and more in line with hurtboxes, with some exceptions. In this game, hitboxes are huge and go for miles. Puff's bair is shut down by so many moves in PM. Ivysaur's bair is bigger than Puff's bair. Charizard's nair is like 5 times bigger than Puff's everything. Etc. That's just how the game is now.

2. More characters can go way offstage in this game compared to Melee, making a lot of characters as good as if not better than Puff at offstage edgeguarding. Also, obviously, recoveries in this game are ridiculous compared to most recoveries in Melee, making great edgeguarding and easy gimps less of a plus, since you're less likely to get those gimps in Project M than in Melee. Bairing a Fox out of UpB startup is easy. But edgeguarding a Mewtwo? Good luck.

3. Project M has more floaty characters than Melee, and especially more floaty viable characters. Resting a spacie can be relatively easy, with a number of viable setups. However, resting a Mewtwo or a Zelda is not an easy task, especially when characters in this game have such enormous hitboxes that make it hard for Puff to both get in and outzone.

Poor Puff. She never had a chance.


:jigglypuff:?

:GCLT::GCRT::GCA::GCStart:
 

0RLY

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@ SSS SSS Yes, that pretty much covers it. Puff cannot follow the same design she had in melee without being awful (like she is now) or broken (guaranteed rest setups). Everything must be changed.

Of course, Puff could just be somebody's preferred counter to spacies, but with almost the entire cast having some answer to fast fallers that becomes a useless niche. Why isn't there a counter to floaties?
 

Phan7om

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Is it possible to make her up-throw knockback equal for both Fastfallers and Floaties (meaning floaties get thrown just as far as fastfallers do now) but not make it set knockback? I have no idea about their programming power but that alone would make Puff more of a threat.
 

0RLY

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Even if it were possible, which I doubt, all that would do is allow for guaranteed rests. Which by itself, would just push Puff more towards broken. Or at least more towards ice climbers: 1 grab = ko. At least the ICs have to do stuff between that grab and the ko.
 

Rᴏb

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How would that make rest guaranteed? You can still DI upthrow.

I think jigglypuff demonstrates how many of the characters in this game got over buffed.
 
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0RLY

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For what reason would he ask for consistent knockback on uthrow? To land uthrow uair rests? Uthrow rests? If this was the intention, then DI wouldn't even matter as jiggs has more than enough horizontal mobility to chase any form of DI off of uthrow.

I don't think that every other PM character should get nerfed to make current Puff viable. That would piss off 40 other mains as opposed to revamping Puff and pissing off just 1.
 

Mr.Random

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In Project M, I have to agree. Kirby functions as a better Jigglypuff without Rest, but with better disjoint, and loads more options. Puff's DESIGN is fine, but in EXECUTION it doesn't work as well. Jigglypuff could compete in Melee, because her spacing/zoning abilities were up to par with all of the viable cast. But with Link, Toon Link, Marth, Roy, Wario, Diddy, Samus, Pit, etc. all having good or better spacing/zoning, Puff just can't keep up. She could easily gimp or get rest set-ups on a good majority of the cast, but she just can't do that in P:M.

As far as what to do about it? I don't know, haha
So basically just nerf everyone else?
 

Rᴏb

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For what reason would he ask for consistent knockback on uthrow? To land uthrow uair rests? Uthrow rests? If this was the intention, then DI wouldn't even matter as jiggs has more than enough horizontal mobility to chase any form of DI off of uthrow.
Maybe so she can have a consistent punish? And of course DI matters, don't be silly.
I don't think that every other PM character should get nerfed to make current Puff viable. That would piss off 40 other mains as opposed to revamping Puff and pissing off just 1.
A lot of characters should get nerfed ARE getting nerfed because they have stupid ****. Getting rid of it would not only help puff, it would make the game better as a whole.
 

0RLY

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Unless that DI is sending them towards a platform they can tech off of, Puff would be able to chase the DI of anybody she uthrows given that the same no-DI uthrow would allow for a rest. If the uthrow is only good enough to allow for uair as a true combo setup, it would be more fair, as the possibility of rest would decline as the knockback on uair scales up. However, I don't think it's possible for uthrow to have such a property as described by Gohan, so I'll drop this discussion.

We know characters are getting recovery nerfs, but that alone isn't going to solve all of Puff's other problems. Having a strong edge game is great and all, but it means nothing if she doesn't have a neutral game.
 

Rᴏb

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The only thing I would do to puffs neutral game atm is give her an ftilt worth having (more range, faster, whatever). I've heard that one of the things the PMDT is addressing with the new patch is getting rid of the impenetrable neutral games many of the characters currently have, so that plus the recovery nerfs may be enough to mave puff viable again.
 

Usopp

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In melee she was godlike i loved playing her in friendlies. But every time i try playing her in PM friendlies its just such a let down. After playing melee puff for so many years and now playing her in PM It feels like her air mobility is just gone. Which to me was the best part about her. In current PM its like why even bother playing as puff when kirby and wario have waaaaay better air mobility and options. I agree with the first post tho, every time i play jigglypuff even if its against my little cousin for fun i get so annoyed lol it always comes down to back air and rest because that's literally all she has going for her. Pound isn't a bad move but as a whole jigglypuff definitely isn't that same puff ball of doom that she was in melee. And i wouldnt be upset with a change in her moves or if rest was toned down. As long as she gains some type of neutral game to keep up with everyone else.
 
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Usopp

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If a character doesn't feel viable enough or just fun enough even for a friendly then that's when i think something should happen. But dont get me wrong i love playing as jigglypuff. maybe sing can be placed with a new move and rest toned down a little bit.

#FreePuff
 
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CyberZixx

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Can we just replace Puff with Clefairy instead. Due to metronome you could get really creative with her moveset.
 

Muzga

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What would be the problem with making jiggs heavier/keeping the aerial movement speed?In exchange for making it slightly harder to chain bairs and stay afloat/making jiggs possible to combo you could subtly improve other aspects like the range of other moves making her able to compete in the priority game a bit better/rely less on footsies.IDK I've never designed a game.Please understand.
 
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