Projectiles.... balanced, not fun

2fantastic

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So I understand ultimate has great balance. I keep seeing new character arising to high tier game play and am incredibly impressed. But... I have also witnessed top tier play in which projectile spam is competitive, sometimes even single projectile spam such as ness or Lucus with pk fire. It doesn’t matter how good you are, you will get spammed. Still with all this projectile spam it’s still balanced. There is still a way for HIGH TIER characters to deal with it. With that said is it fun....?!?! The answer is it’s not. It’s a really not fun game mechanic to play as or against. ESPECIALLY for new players. Which is why even though it’s a huge title, with an even bigger competitive scene, it will on average only sit around 2-3k viewers on twitch. Nobody wants to watch or play a character designed to run away while slowly getting cheap shots unless you are partially psychotic with no compassion for your opponent. And so while ultimate got “balanced” after 10 years since melee, it still misses the mark with a lot of match ups. And that is fun.
 

link2702

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So I understand ultimate has great balance. I keep seeing new character arising to high tier game play and am incredibly impressed. But... I have also witnessed top tier play in which projectile spam is competitive, sometimes even single projectile spam such as ness or Lucus with pk fire. It doesn’t matter how good you are, you will get spammed. Still with all this projectile spam it’s still balanced. There is still a way for HIGH TIER characters to deal with it. With that said is it fun....?!?! The answer is it’s not. It’s a really not fun game mechanic to play as or against. ESPECIALLY for new players. Which is why even though it’s a huge title, with an even bigger competitive scene, it will on average only sit around 2-3k viewers on twitch. Nobody wants to watch or play a character designed to run away while slowly getting cheap shots unless you are partially psychotic with no compassion for your opponent. And so while ultimate got “balanced” after 10 years since melee, it still misses the mark with a lot of match ups. And that is fun.
Literally almost every fighter on the planet has projectile zoners. You might not find it fun, but some folks do. And yes I’m talking about both playing as AND/OR against them.


While i don’t personally enjoy playing against it, especially cuz I’m a ganon main so projectile camping is the bane of my existence, I learn to accept it.

People have been whining about projectile zoners since long before smash even existed. Get over it. Either figure out the counterpay to it with your characters, learn to use a character that directly counters them like someone with a great reflector or a rushdown that can always keep in their opponents face, or just accept that it’s a difficult matchup. Complaining about it solves nothing.
 

2fantastic

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Literally almost every fighter on the planet has projectile zoners. You might not find it fun, but some folks do. And yes I’m talking about both playing as AND/OR against them.


While i don’t personally enjoy playing against it, especially cuz I’m a ganon main so projectile camping is the bane of my existence, I learn to accept it.

People have been whining about projectile zoners since long before smash even existed. Get over it. Either figure out the counterpay to it with your characters, learn to use a character that directly counters them like someone with a great reflector or a rushdown that can always keep in their opponents face, or just accept that it’s a difficult matchup. Complaining about it solves nothing.
I get you are a glutton for punishment since you are a Gannon main and are fine accepting that you will lose games before they start due to poor balance unless you are drastically better than your opponent. We are not the same in that regard. I expect better from this tittle and I’m making it known. Like I said, with some tweaks to this game it will actually become huge.
again if you are satisfied we’re not gonna see eye to eye because I am not. So making the argument that I should be satisfied playing a game I don’t enjoy is not really gonna work.
 

2fantastic

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And you may say, well don’t play. And my answer will be: I have stopped
And then you will probably say then move on: and I will say not until I have voiced some constructive criticism that I hope will eventually change the game and make me want to return to it.
I believe that’s the only two other directions this conversation can go because I have made up my mind from my own gameplay and watching high level gameplay. Sorry if you wanted to sway my opinion
 

Necro'lic

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And you may say, well don’t play. And my answer will be: I have stopped
And then you will probably say then move on: and I will say not until I have voiced some constructive criticism that I hope will eventually change the game and make me want to return to it.
The next step would then be to yourself: "Is my criticism actually constructive? Does it mesh with what a fighting game usually has? Does a fighting game need this or is it there for a reason?"

I think the problem the first poster had (and most people have with the type of people who seem to just not like projectiles) is there seems to be a lack of introspection within your criticism.
 

Oddball

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And you may say, well don’t play. And my answer will be: I have stopped
Okay. Now you just need to stop whining about it and find something you do enjoy doing.

I believe that’s the only two other directions this conversation can go because I have made up my mind from my own gameplay and watching high level gameplay. Sorry if you wanted to sway my opinion
In short "I'm right. Everybody else is wrong. I'm not going to discuss it."

Then why did you even make the topic?
 
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Spiny Top

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So are you here to simply vent or do you want to have a constructive talk on counterplay? Who's your main?

What I do when fighting projectile spammers like Samus, Young Link, Olimar, or K Rool is I lay down a gyro in between us, which blackholes lots of different projectiles, then keep peppering them by firing laser after laser while grabbing, chucking, and refreshing the gyro when it wobbles before fizzing. The laser is fast, and great at interrupting their projectile animation such a Ness winding up a Pkfire.

After landing a hit with the laser, they have some knockback where you can grab the gyro and chuck it at them. If that connects that is your window to close in and start brawling with them or you can just rinse and repeat by charging another gyro.
 
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KingDoop

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I partially agree. I realized some time ago while playing online there are more characters I dislike fighting than I enjoy. At this point do I even like this game? I think so...but it seems more situational now than in the past.

Anyways......there are projectiles and then there are wall-of-projectile characters. Mario's fireball and Wolf's laser i don't think bother anyone. Belmonts, young link, pac man, etc, I think do. When the game plan for a character is to be annoying I can't say I'll ever find the fun in that. If you can more power to you, but I'm starting to think this game isn't for me. Or at least the online 1v1 environment. Playing with my friends is still fun thankfully
 

Blutrausch

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So I understand ultimate has great balance. I keep seeing new character arising to high tier game play and am incredibly impressed. But... I have also witnessed top tier play in which projectile spam is competitive, sometimes even single projectile spam such as ness or Lucus with pk fire. It doesn’t matter how good you are, you will get spammed. Still with all this projectile spam it’s still balanced.
Spam isn't restricted to projectiles. Projectiles just receive more criticism because it's obvious to most players and because the projectile user doesn't need to approach some of the time.

There is still a way for HIGH TIER characters to deal with it.
People who main top-tiered characters still complain about characters with projectiles. ESAM hates Ness, even though he mains Pikachu. Dark Wizzy has complained about Samus, even though he mains Mario. Charliedaking hates Samus, even though he mains Wolf. Unlike Pikachu, Mario and Wolf have reflectors.

With that said is it fun....?!?! The answer is it’s not. It’s a really not fun game mechanic to play as or against.
This is subjective, so you can't speak for everyone, but yourself.

ESPECIALLY for new players.
Since you seem to believe that high tiers (and by virtue, top tiers) can deal with projectile spam, new players should just pick up better characters.

Which is why even though it’s a huge title, with an even bigger competitive scene, it will on average only sit around 2-3k viewers on twitch.
People who attend tournaments to view or people who watch on Twitch aren't necessarily competitive players. They may very well be, but I suspect collecting data to prove this wouldn't be easy. There are enthusiasts who just watch and enjoy the high level of play. I watch someone named Super on YouTube. He plays Mortal Kombat 11, and recently he's been playing Mortal Kombat X. I enjoy his videos, but I don't play any of the games.

Nobody wants to watch or play a character designed to run away while slowly getting cheap shots
There are people who play as Sonic. In fact, the best Sonic main is Wrath, who plays very patient and defensive. Ironic, isn't it, that the fastest character in SSBU is treated like a turtle. Also, in top level play, no one cares about what viewers want to watch. Maybe tournament organizers (TOs) care, but if there's a cash prize, no top player is going to care if you watch. As for "cheap shots", that's scrub talk. If you play for honor, then SSBU or fighting games in general aren't for you.

unless you are partially psychotic with no compassion for your opponent. And so while ultimate got “balanced” after 10 years since melee, it still misses the mark with a lot of match ups. And that is fun.
Keep mental disorders out of this. It's bad enough that mental disorders are stigmatized in our society. As for compassion, keep that out. If you want compassion, talk to a close friend or relative.
 
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Zachmac

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Projectile based characters can be really frustrating, but the catharsis that comes when you finally break their defenses makes it worth. This is why I personally love fighting K.Rool and the Belmonts - as annoying as their "gimmicks" are they're super satisfying to bully when they're in disadvantage.

Lots of new players love projectiles, by the way. Or rather, they love using them. It can be annoying but they can give those players a crux to lean on while they're still learning the deeper elements of the game. This is true for a lot of other """unfun""" moves such as ones with super armor to.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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As annoying as it is to deal with projectile spammers, the main drawback with most projectiles is that they lack the knockback strength to make KOs. Also, some fighters have ways to counter such strategies.
 

Ninj4pikachu

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Best way to bet 'em: Join 'em... Pick up a zoner yourself and vent your frustration on other rush-down players, heck you might even learn something lol imagine that...
 

SDFox

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Which is why even though it’s a huge title, with an even bigger competitive scene, it will on average only sit around 2-3k viewers on twitch. Nobody wants to watch or play a character designed to run away while slowly getting cheap shots unless you are partially psychotic with no compassion for your opponent. .
1. Balancing a game so it's fun to watch is a bad way to balance a game.
2. Are you suggesting that you want that entire play-style made unviable? Because that sounds like throwing the baby out with the bath water to me.
 

Illuvial

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High level Smash isn't for everyone. For example, I love battle royales such as Apex Legends, but I hate high level Apex gameplay because it goes against everything I play the game for and you have to deal with really degenerate strats in comp that simply aren't as big of a deal in casual play.

Therefore, I play it a lot, but I play it casually with friends in pubs where we can do what we want.

If I hated zoning in fighting games, I'd stick to playing them casually with friends and wouldn't touch it in other contexts. Sounds like you've already quit, so the next step is finding something you enjoy doing instead of complaining on a forum.
 

Gamer Cube

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Projectile spam is actually pretty easy to get around. If you pick a stage with platforms you can just dodge all of the projectiles until they mess up. At that point you take a stock then just wait it out. As a Mac main, I can confidently say that you can do it if I'm doing it.
 

DougEfresh

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Everyone is different I suppose, but for me I'd rather put up with an "annoying zoner" type character most of the time over fighting hyper aggressive unga bunga characters that don't give you time to breathe and can take your stock in 20s or less if you're not careful. It can certainly test your patience and be frustrating to deal with projectile-heavy characters, but if that's really the crux of their gameplan against you, they give you plenty of time to figure out their habits in how they're setting up their walling pressure, and punish those accordingly as the match goes on (this is much harder against a Roy or a Fox when you're not able to slow down the match as well imo). After all is said and done, the playstyle might be "lame", but if that's all they got for a playstyle against you, you should able to download them if you're competent enough and embrace the slower pace of the match. Better players will gravitate toward being more safe and patient even when they're relatively more aggressive anyway, so might as well take that cue as well and against zoners in particular if you want to improve and stop getting so aggravated by them all the time.
 

MalanoMan

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So I understand ultimate has great balance. I keep seeing new character arising to high tier game play and am incredibly impressed. But... I have also witnessed top tier play in which projectile spam is competitive, sometimes even single projectile spam such as ness or Lucus with pk fire. It doesn’t matter how good you are, you will get spammed. Still with all this projectile spam it’s still balanced. There is still a way for HIGH TIER characters to deal with it. With that said is it fun....?!?! The answer is it’s not. It’s a really not fun game mechanic to play as or against. ESPECIALLY for new players. Which is why even though it’s a huge title, with an even bigger competitive scene, it will on average only sit around 2-3k viewers on twitch. Nobody wants to watch or play a character designed to run away while slowly getting cheap shots unless you are partially psychotic with no compassion for your opponent. And so while ultimate got “balanced” after 10 years since melee, it still misses the mark with a lot of match ups. And that is fun.
I personally also do not enjoy playing against projectile characters, no matter who I play as. They can be frustrating, but that is Ultimate. I still play the game though because like the guy in the quote below says, its very satisfying to break their defenses and beat em to a pulp.

If you absolutely cannot enjoy Ultimate with projectiles, try Melee. There are less projectiles. Download an emulator if you dont have a GC or Wii. It's still a fun game regardless of what people say about it.

Projectile based characters can be really frustrating, but the catharsis that comes when you finally break their defenses makes it worth. This is why I personally love fighting K.Rool and the Belmonts - as annoying as their "gimmicks" are they're super satisfying to bully when they're in disadvantage.

Lots of new players love projectiles, by the way. Or rather, they love using them. It can be annoying but they can give those players a crux to lean on while they're still learning the deeper elements of the game. This is true for a lot of other """unfun""" moves such as ones with super armor to.
 
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SixtyFour

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One thing a lot of people have trouble with when dealing with projectiles is jumping out of shield. If someone "spams" projectiles on you, they typically like to try and cover/read your jump, since many people try to jump over projectiles which is one of the worst things you can do. This is because it consumes your jump and prompts you to air-dodge out of disadvantage. Simply shielding on the ground can help a great bit.

I understand that online, projectiles can be a pain because of input buffering which makes shielding on reaction quite hard. Zoning in Ultimate has become one of the best strategies in high level/top levels of play because of its versatility. One way I look at this is if your opponent is able to do the same thing over and over again and win, chances are you are doing the same thing over and over again to react to them. Doing the same thing to counter their playstyle will allow them to have a field day on you. That's partially how they win a lot in lower levels of play. Characters that zone are able to easily pick up on consistent habits that you may have and punish them.

However, I do not believe that being a zoner/camper archetype character makes it a bad game mechanic. It's simply a playstyle that is often seen as incredibly irritating since you simply can't run up and hit your opponent like you can with most other characters. You have to devise a plan or way to condition your opponent to find an opening in their wall of projectiles. All I can say is, learn the matchups, and learn how to deal with projectiles and "spamming" them against you will become unviable.
 
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