Project Vertical: Kill Percents, Stage Ceilings, Character Usmash/Uair Knockback

Thinkaman

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Thinkaman
#1
There should probably be an introduction of sorts here. However, I don't care, and you don't care; I'm just here to throw numbers at you, so we'll cut right to that; I'll edit in an intro later.

Character Vertical Survivability:
(highest to lowest)

(Percent damage required to be killed by a fully-charged Mario up-smash on Final Destination; Mario up-smash was chosen due to its large and low hitbox, along with almost straight vertical knockback.)

DeDeDe: 99
DK: 96
Snake: 96

Bowser: 93
Falcon: 92
Ike: 91
Ganondorf: 91
Link: 89
Charizard: 89

Wolf: 88
Wario: 88
Yoshi: 87
Samus: 86
ROB: 86
Ivysaur: 85

Lucario: 83
Mario: 82
Luigi: 82
Pit: 82
Sonic: 82
Ness: 81

Marth: 80
Diddy: 80
Lucas: 80
Toon Link: 80
Ice Climbers: 78
Falco: 77

Peach: 76
Pikachu: 75
Olimar: 75
Zamus: 74
Zelda: 74
Shiek: 74
Meta-Knight: 73
Kirby: 72
Fox: 72

G&W: 70
Squirtle: 68
Jigglypuff: 65



Uncharged Up-Smash Killing Power, Grounded Opponent:
(Highest to lowest)

(Character performed a C-stick uncharged up-smash on Mario immediately in front of them; the percentage required to kill on Final Destination is given: lower percentage needed means higher knockback. Some characters, namely DK, Shiek, and ROB, are omitted for not having an up-smash capable of killing a grounded Mario vertically.)

Ivysaur: 59 (82 fatigued)
Lucas: 75
G&W: 77

Peach: 84
Fox: 93
Squirtle: 93 (117 fatigued)
Olimar: R-98 Y-108 B-98 P-79 W-165

Ike: 100
Kirby: 101
Snake: 102 (u-tilt, more powerful than smash)
Charizard: 104 (133 fatigued)
Zelda: 105
Ganondorf: 105
Luigi: 106
Falcon: 107
DeDeDe: 109 (103 for u-tilt...)

Toon Link: 112
Ice Climbers: 114 (similar alone)
Pikachu: 115
Falco: 122
Mario: 124
Marth: 124
Wolf: 124
Jigglypuff: 128
Bowser: 129
Link: 130
Yoshi: 130

Wario: 137
Pit: 140
Meta-Knight: 143
Ness: 147 (u-tilt, more powerful than smash)
Samus: 153 (u-tilt, more powerful than smash)

Sonic: 158 (u-tilt, more powerful than smash)
Zamus: 159
Diddy: 159 (u-tilt, more powerful than smash)
Lucario: 177 [Lucario @ 0% damage himself]



Charged Up-Smash Killing Power, Grounded Opponent: (Highest to lowest)

(Character performed a fully charged up-smash on Mario immediately in front of them; the percentage required to kill on Final Destination is again given. Some characters, namely DK, Shiek, and ROB, are once again omitted, and characters with better killing up-tilts than up-smashes are also omitted.)

Ivysaur: 33 (51 fatigued)
Lucas: 41
G&W: 45
Peach: 47

Fox: 57
Squirtle: 59 (81 fatigued)
Ike: 63
Olimar: R-63 Y-70 B-63 P-47 W-119
Falcon: 64
Kirby: 65
Ganondorf: 65

Charizard: 68 (92 fatigued)
DeDeDe: 72
Zelda: 73
Ice Climbers: 73 (77 alone)
Toon Link: 73

Marth: 80
Falco: 81
Wolf: 81
Mario: 82
Pikachu: 84
Yoshi: 85
Link: 86
Bowser: 86
Luigi: 87
Jigglypuff: 87

Wario: 92
Pit: 98

Meta-Knight: 115
Lucario: 124 [Lucario @ 0% damage himself]
Zamus: 128



Uncharged Up-Smash Killing Power, Aerial Opponent:
(Highest to lowest)

(Character performed a C-stick uncharged up-smash on Mario immediately above them on right-side platform of Battlefield; the percentage required to kill is given: lower percentage needed means higher knockback. Some shorter characters without aerial-focused hitboxes cannot reach this platform and are thus omitted.)

Ivysaur: 51 (68 fatigued)
DK: 74
Lucas: 80
Peach: 84
Ganondorf: 85
Shiek: 86

Olimar: R-89 Y-96 B-89 P-116 W-151
Ike: 92
Bowser: 93 (99 for u-tilt)
ROB: 93

DeDeDe: 100 (95 for u-tilt...)
Ice Climbers: 102 (similar alone)
Toon Link: 103
Zelda: 107
Snake: 111 (u-tilt, more powerful than smash)
Charizard: 112 (143 fatigued)
Marth: 116
Yoshi: 120

Link: 126
Wolf: 128 (116 for u-tilt...)
Kirby: 129
Squirtle: 130 (159 fatigued)
Pit: 140
Samus: 141 (u-tilt, more powerful than smash)
Ness: 142
Diddy: 148

Falcon: 150
Sonic: 157 (u-tilt, more powerful than smash)
Lucario: 164 (192 for u-tilt) [Lucario @ 0% damage himself]
Pikachu: 172



Charged Up-Smash Killing Power, Aerial Opponent: (highest to lowest)

(Character performed a full charged up-smash on Mario immediately above them on right-side platform of Battlefield; the percentage required to kill is again given. Some shorter characters are omitted again, as well as those who used tilts.)

Ivysaur: 27 (43 fatigued)
DK: 43
Lucas: 47
Ganondorf: 48
Shiek: 52
Peach: 53

Bowser: 55
Ike: 56
Olimar: R-56 Y-62 B-56 P-78 W-108
ROB: 60
DeDeDe: 65
Toon Link: 66 (can barely reach)

Ice Climbers: 68 (Similar alone; can barely reach)
Charizard: 73 (103 fatigued)
Marth: 74
Yoshi: 78
Zelda: 79
Link: 85
Wolf: 86
Kirby: 88

Squirtle: 93 (117 fatigued)
Pit: 100
Falcon: 105

Lucario: 118
Pikachu: 121

Ness: 142 [Ness gains no damage or knockback by charging his up-smash.]


Up-Aerial Killing Power:
(highest to lowest)

(Character performed short-hop up-air on Mario immediately above them on right-side platform of Battlefield; the percentage required to kill is given: lower percentage needed means higher knockback. Some characters do not have up-airs with deadly vertical knockback and are thus omitted.)

Zelda: 82
Bowser: 84
Ivysaur: 89 (113 fatigued)
Ike: 93

Snake: 100
Mario: 111
Wario: 111
DK: 113
Ness: 113
Yoshi: 114
Toon Link: 114

Fox: 124
Link: 128
Marth: 132

Ice Climbers: 137 (131 alone...?)
Peach: 139
Squirtle: 142 (173 fatigued)
Lucas: 142
DeDeDe: 143
Falco: 143
Charizard: 146 (179 fatigued)

Diddy: 150
Shiek: 154
Jigglypuff: 157
Olimar: 158 (all but White)

Meta-Knight: 160
Luigi: 161
Kirby: 167
Wolf: 171
Sonic: 176

ROB: 195
Lucario: 198


In addition, some character have down-airs that similarly have vertical knockback that can kill at comparable percentages:


Link: 86
Pit: 133
Toon Link: 140
DeDeDe: 143

Ice Climbers: 194
Shiek: 197


Other vertical knockback aerials include Luigi's neutral-air (kills at 103) and Snake's forward-air (kills at 93). Finally, some characters' special moves cause vertical knockback that can KO:

Luigi: 43 (Dragon Punch)
Jigglypuff: 56 (Rest), 72 (Aerial Rollout)

Bowser: 84 (Butt-Stomp)
Ganondorf: 85 (Wizard Foot, non-initial hitbox)
DeDeDe: 95 (Butt-Stomp)
Shiek: 121 (Up-B Explosion)
Wario: 125 (Up-B twirl... thing)


Zelda: 146 (Din's Fire)
Yoshi: 149 (Butt-Stomp)
Pikachu: 168 (Thunder, bolt hitbox)
Link: 171 (Bombs)

Falcon: 204 (grounded Raptor Boost uppercut)
Link: 209 (Bombs)



Spiking Power (Rebound): (highest to lowest)

(Same procedure as previous aerials test. What we are concerned with here is not spiking recovering characters downward, but instead spiking our grounded Mario off the stage vertically into the ceiling. This may not directly correlate with downward spiking power, since different spikes cause different angles of upward rebounding. In fact, Ivysaur is not on this list at all because his dair spike rebounds grounded opponents more horizontally! Also, Zelda's spike does not work on grounded opponents at all.)

Ganondorf: 81 (d-air), 118 (Wizard's Foot, initial hitbox)

Ike: 113 (d-air)
Charizard: 116 (d-air, 146 fatigued)
Snake: 121 (f-air)

DK: 130 (d-air), 147 (f-air)
G&W: 135 (d-air)

Toon Link: 150 (d-air)
Samus: 153 (d-air)
Falcon: 157 (d-air), 229 (Aerial Raptor Boost)
Ness: 160 (d-air)
Diddy: 163 (d-air)

Wolf: 169 (d-air)
Marth: 170 (d-air)
Falco: 171 (d-air)
Yoshi: 175 (f-air)
ROB: 180 (d-air)

Mario: 226 (f-air)


Spiking Power: (highest to lowest)
Percentage required in training mode (similar procedure) to KO a Mario downward in the water of Pirate Ship.

Ganondorf: 25 (d-air), 45 (Wizard's Foot, initial hitbox)
Ness: 26 (d-air)

Zelda: 38 (dair)
Ike: 40 (d-air)
Snake: 45 (f-air)

DK: 50 (d-air), 62 (f-air)
Toon Link: 57 (d-air)
G&W: 67 (d-air)
Charizard: 67 (d-air, 99 fatigued)

Marth: 70 (d-air)
Diddy: 70 (d-air)
Samus: 76 (d-air)
Falcon: 76 (d-air), 119 (Aerial Raptor Boost)
ROB: 79 (d-air)

Lucas: 81 (bair)
Falco: 84 (d-air)
Wolf: 84 (d-air)
Yoshi: 90 (f-air)

Mario: 109 (f-air)


Random in-progress notes:

Up-throws:
Olimar: 125 (Blue)
Ivysaur: 133 (184 fatigued)
ROB: 144
Link: 147
Squirtle: 148 (203 fatigued; d-throw, 166 fatigued)
Kirby: 150
Meta-Knight: 156
Zelda: 162
Luigi: 168
Mario: 169
Pit: 178
Ness: 178
Toon Link: 184
Ganondorf: 198
Zamus: 198
Falcon: 208
DK: 209
Samus: 212
Wario: 216
DeDeDe: 217
Diddy: 224
Wolf: 225


Up-tilt:
Zelda: 94
Bowser: 99
Wolf: 116
Young Link: 120
Meta-Knight: 120
Link: 124
DK: 128
Pikachu: 140
Fox: 143
Falco: 148 (146 down-tilt)
Olimar: 182

Ivsaur: (219 fatigued)

Dash:
Ivysaur: (171 fatigued)
Wolf: 176
Samus: 192


Stage Ceiling Height:
(highest to lowest, from bottom platform)

(Amount of damage required for grounded Mario to be KO'd by an undiminished, fully charged Mario up-smash. Less damage needed = lower ceiling. Damages/heights are listed for major platforms as well on some stages, in ascending order. Some stages that were difficult (like Delfino) were not closely examined, and some stages no one cares about were skipped entirely.)

New Pork City: 118 (Bottom)
Jungle Japes: 100/97/93
Summit: 94 (Bottom) 71 (Top)
Green Hill Zone: 89/80/74
Luigi's Mansion: 88/84/78/67
Mario Circuit: 88/81/73
Shadow Moses: 88/80/70
Onett: 88

Pirate Ship: 85
Skyworld: 85/80/76/70
Havenbow: 85
Pictochat: 84
Eldin: 83
Pokemon Stadium 2: 83/75

Battlefield: 82/75/68
FD: 82
Delfino: 82
Norfair: 82/74/67
Yoshi's Island: 82/75
Lylat Cruise: 82/74
Spear Pillar: 82
Castle Siege: 82-88-81
Distant Planet: 82
Smashville: 82/74
Frigate: 81-77
Brinstar: 81/74/68

Wario Ware: 79
Halberd: 77/75/68-73/65
Aero Dive: 77
FlatZone2: 77

Rainbow Ride: 75
Green Greens: 75
Yoshi's Island (Melee): 74
Corneria: 74/70/57

Mushroomy: 67





Well, thats's it. I'll probably do an analysis thread separate much later, particularly on characters and personal bans/stage counterpicks.

EDIT: Things that I found most interestign that might be good for discussion include:
-Never realized how lethal at killing upwards Game and Watch and Peach had become...
-Shocked how high the ceiling of Onett really was, as well as just how vast Jungle Japes truly is...
-Many stages in Brawl have virtually equal ceilings!
-After playing on it enough Summit becomes a shockingly decent stage. I've slowly gotten used to Pokemon Stadium 2 as well. :p
-Fox and Falco really can be killed vertically now, it's no lie.
-DeDeDe is the heaviest! And Snake is tied with DK for second! O_o
-Had no idea Squirtle was that light, and Ness was that heavy...
-Lucario can't kill up.

Please, jump in on these points or anything else you would like to discuss. Also, if I missed any attacks that have vertical knockback, like Din's Fire, please mention them! I'll probably get aroudn to doing throws sometime.
 
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#9
This is an awesome thread. I was thinking of making something like this myself, but this saved me a ton of time.

Just fyi though, you missed Pokemon Stadium 1, and that is a very tourney-viable stage. I went and checked for you doing your same method, and I checked on FD and got the same thing you did.
Pokemon Stadium is 82, nothing exciting, but hey, its an important stage...
thanks again for the guide
 
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#12
Very useful information, this thread needs sticky. :)

Do you have statistics on up tilts as well? Specifically ones that are reasonable kill moves and/or fast.
 

Qinopio

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#14
This is a great resource! Thanks for making it.

I really think you need to add Lucario and 100% and Lucario at 180% as "separate characters" since his damage and knockback can more than double.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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#18
Sure is a lot of information. One thing that I do find amusing however is that Peach's u-smash is more lethal than Mario's u-smash if it connects right.
 

CyberGlitch

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#22
Wonderful work, really, thank you.

I find that you are missing an Up Aerial stat for Wario (it is clearly a vertical killer). If you could add this data that'd be great.
 

Thinkaman

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#25
None of this data is specifically sweet-spotted. It is simply a Mario at ground level or a Mario above at Battlefield platform height.

I may work on fleshing this out more soon, adding some attacks I missed and adding up-throws. I am thinking about doing a ranking on priority of uairs and dairs as well.
 
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#26
Great thread. I can't believe I didn't notice it before. I wanted to sticky it, but there would be way too many stickies, so it inspired me to make the links index instead ^_^
 

Percon

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#28
Great thread!

This stuff is quite useful. I wonder if someone could come up with an equation where you could calculate the damage needed to kill specific people on specific stages with specific moves. It's probably wishful thinking, but it'd be cool :p.
 
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#29
Anyone noticed Zero Suit Samus was misssed from some of these lists? I do know your still compiling data but I just want to make sure.

Uncharged Up Smash
Charged UP Smash
Up Aerial
Spiking Power (Down Aerial best, though Up Special, and down special can be used)
 
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#30
Hmm. I'm fairly certain G&W's Uair can kill if you hit with his mouth. I don't have the percent, though. Other than that I love the work put into this :]

Edit: Alright, I just tested, and, sweetspotted, G&W's Uair kills at 377% according to the requirements of Mario on the right side of Battlefield.

Which makes this the weakest of the killing Uairs. I guess you could omit this, or add a little note about it. Whatever works.
 
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#35
Wow Thinkaman, this is indeed a fantastic and thorough resource, it must have taken a while to gather all these stats. I found some of these to be very interesting and almost shocking haha, it will defintely affect the way i approach the game now, thanks!
 

A2ZOMG

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#37
You need to do G&W's D-smash. G&W's D-smash is also a mega strong vertical killer (Also, non-sweetspotted, it's an amazing semi spike).

Plus, I think Snake's C4 also is a vertical killer.
 

KAN

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#38
Why are Dedede and Snake (wtf?) heavier than Bowser? Stupid? (Not an insult to TC but to the programmers.)
How could Snake be heavier than Bowser???

But very good research, awesome work, man.
It just annoys me, that Bowser is neither the best killer nor the best survivor. -.-
 
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