Project M Ultimate Discussion

LunchmanJ

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#1
So for those who don't know, Project M is a mod to make Brawl have the same competitiveness as Melee. Right now, people are working on a Project M for Smash Bros Ultimate. Seems kinda unnecessary, right? Kinda offensive? Well, I would say that both Ultimate and the Melee style should be available at the same time. I don't know about the legality of it, but whatever.

I personally think that the Melee physics SHOULD be replicated, but the movesets should be based on the meta from Ultimate. You take an Ultimate character, balance him and give him new tricks, BAM. You're done. I love Melee, but it is like 20 years old. It would be a repeat of Icons: Combat Arena.

For new characters, I think we should get:
  1. Waluigi
  2. Paper Mario
  3. Ashley from WarioWare
  4. Funky Kong
  5. Skull Kid
  6. Bandana Dee
  7. Black Shadow
  8. Porky Minch
  9. Krystal from Star Fox
  10. Gengar from Pokemon
  11. Tom Nook from Animal Crossing
  12. Shadow the Hedgehog
I reject:
1. Rhythm Heaven character - Their games sell well, but does anyone really remember the game even if they played it? Seems to have no actual fanbase to me.
2. Flavor of the week Pokemon or Fire Emblem - I never like these additions since Lucario in Brawl. Does anybody really get hype for these characters unless they were already in previous games? You could say they are somewhat important, but they literally only appear in one game. A character like Scorbunny does not even have his game out yet. I appreciate them because they represent the latest era, but they are now lower priority because the roster is oversaturated with them.
3. Advance Wars or Golden Sun rep - Too obscure? I really can't tell at all!
4. Geno - Have no idea why he's so popular, aside from making the assumption Sakurai wants him.
5. Dixie and Cranky - Not really memorable enough, so I chose Funky Kong because he seems to appear as much.
6. Xenoblade character - Literally the smallest series represented in Smash. Shulk is enough.

Movesets changes (if the game is to be truly different than vanilla Ultimate, then I'll just go all out.)
1. Mario, Luigi - Make them more like 3D Land and Super Mario Galaxy. Add in all their types of jumping and stuff.
2. Ganondorf - Just revamp his moveset already. I don"t give a **** there's still Ganondorf mains.
3. Dark Samus and Daisy - Upgrade from Echo to unique moveset.
4. Bowser Jr - Paintbrush from Super Mario Sunshine.
5. Wario - Take off all that jankyness and farts, and make him more Wario Land.
6. Impa over Sheik - Same moveset, different model. Maybe reworked to be more Sheikah. We don't need that chain side b.
7. Samus - More stuff from her games because she’s done really blandly. Alternating beams, charging shot while moving, things like that.
 
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Quillion

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#3
So I want to ask: now that Ultimate's low landing lag is now essentially auto L-canceling, how would that pan out in a Melee-like environment?
 
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#5
Personally, a mod I would want to see would be to mix Ultimate and Melee's gameplay together (Or essentially mostly Melee and remove some unnecessary aspects of it). There are some things I don't think we need back from Melee and same as Ultimate. L canceling would be pointless to implement and Wave dashing can be up in the air and I don't really care it was in or not (As I heard some players don't really care for it, I also heard Mang0 saying the same thing in a stream once).
 

Quillion

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#6
You add lag to aerials back in then add L canceling to cancel it out.
In a perfect world, that would be the right solution.

But you know the Smash fandom is a bunch of sheep. One moment, they want L-canceling to come back in its full manual form, but now that Ultimate gives low landing lag, nearly everyone proclaims L-canceling was garbage and never should have existed.
 
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#7
In a perfect world, that would be the right solution.

But you know the Smash fandom is a bunch of sheep. One moment, they want L-canceling to come back in its full manual form, but now that Ultimate gives low landing lag, nearly everyone proclaims L-canceling was garbage and never should have existed.
You and I already went through this in great detail. Unless you were just asking OP purely for context. But it seems like you are saying the community is contradicting themselves when really it's a combination of differing opinions and people figuring out L-Cancel is a horrible game design choice.

Anyway, I have enough programming background to easily do at the very least a rebalancing mod of Ultimate if I had the tools. I just don't think the tools are refined enough yet, and considering the Switch is going to be a major console for Nintendo in the foreseeable future, I don't know when the Switch will be super safe to hack and play with.
 

Gearkeeper-8a

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#9
changing ultimate to be like melee would be a disaster there is a reason project M drop that idea, imagine balacing 70+ characters with 3 frame jumpsquat aka: the same as melee fox, most characters do more damage that their melee counter pack, sans specific moves, characters are more faster in ultimate compared to melee without the extra movement options of dash dancing, waveland, and wavedash, shields mechanics are weaker in ultimate, DI is weaker, SDI too, the results would be more akin to smash 64.
 

Zachmac

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#10
Eh I don't think it'll quite catch on. Part of the reason Project M originally got as big as it did was because Brawl was such a disaster competitively already and making it more like Melee was the most obvious way fans could think of to "fix" it. I idea of a Project M for Wii U was brought up a few times and never really got came to fruition, and I think that may have been in part because it was already a decent competitive game even if it was pretty flawed itself.

Currently Ultimate doesn't have any massive, jarring flaws that absolutely need fixing. Making it more like Melee will just make it more like Melee - unlike Brawl, it wouldn't necessarily make it a better competitive game. I don't see where the demand for something like this would really be. I think Melee fans will just keep playing Melee and Ultimate fans will just keep playing Ultimate.
 

LunchmanJ

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#11
So for those who don't know, Project M is a mod to make Brawl have the same competitiveness as Melee. Right now, people are working on a Project M for Smash Bros Ultimate. Seems kinda unnecessary, right? Kinda offensive? Well, I would say that both vanilla Ultimate and the Melee style should be available at the same time. I don't know about the legality of it, but whatever.

I personally think that the Melee physics SHOULD be replicated, but the movesets should be based on the meta from Ultimate. You take an Ultimate character, balance him and give him new tricks, BAM. You're done. I love Melee, but it is like 20 years old. Don't do a repeat of Icons: Combat Arena.
 
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Quillion

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#12
I think Melee fans will just keep playing Melee and Ultimate fans will just keep playing Ultimate.
Given the history from Brawl til now, it's more like Melee players will keep playing Melee, and newheads will just keep moving on to the next game.
 
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#13
Literally went over this in the OP.

As someone who grew up playing Project M, I think adding L Canceling back in is really a non issue. Like it's such a minor detail and is basically the same. I don't think people hate it that much.
Well like someone already said, making it more like Melee is not synonymous with making the game better. And if L-Cancelling was added back, it would basically be a game wide movement nerf that is only compensated for with a rapid fire quick time event system. Who asks for stuff like that?

So in this regard at least, someone would be actively making the game worse from a design standpoint just so they can be "like Melee", which honestly shows me that people who would want that horrible design added back into the game don't actually understand why Melee is so great. Hint: it's not the APM.
 

LunchmanJ

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#14
Well like someone already said, making it more like Melee is not synonymous with making the game better. And if L-Cancelling was added back, it would basically be a game wide movement nerf that is only compensated for with a rapid fire quick time event system. Who asks for stuff like that?

So in this regard at least, someone would be actively making the game worse from a design standpoint just so they can be "like Melee", which honestly shows me that people who would want that horrible design added back into the game don't actually understand why Melee is so great. Hint: it's not the APM.
I think of Ultimate and the Melee style not as improvements but options. If you like Ultimate, you play Ultimate. If you like Melee, you play Melee. If you like both, you play both.

Also I love L Canceling.
THAT IS TENGAN TOPPA. THAT IS GURREN LAGANN! My drill is the drill that creates the heavens!
 
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#15
I know. I think of Ultimate and the Melee style not as improvements but options. If you like Ultimate, you play Ultimate. If you like Melee, you play Melee. If you like both, you play both. I was a Melee player, worse than Mango obviously, and I am asking for this minor change that affects nothing. What makes my opinion so much less valuable than Mango's? I'm a player too you know.

Who asks for it? I do, and it's part of the general process of even creating Project Ultimate, which will be made even if you don't want it to.
I understand the goal is simply to make Melee HD. But why not just make a better competitive Smash game than Melee, especially when you have almost two decades of hindsight to work with?

This is why I think anyone who works off of this mentality of simply making a carbon copy of Melee doesn't actually want an actually great competitive Smash game, they just want Melee. The goal in mind is rather skewed from my perspective. And I have a strange feeling that if it's not due to incompetence, it's due to either them not wanting to anger Melee fans when just by virtue of not being Melee, they won't play it, or they actually think Melee is the pinnacle of competitive game design in literally every respect. Or they simply don't know why Melee is a great competitive game and can discern the problems with the game as well as what works within it too and get rid of the former and keep the latter.

The most charitable and likely interpretation is the last one, which is why I feel like a "Project Ultimate" who's mission statement is simply to make Melee with Ultimate's roster doesn't actually understand why Melee is a great competitive game in the first place.
 

LunchmanJ

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#16
I understand the goal is simply to make Melee HD. But why not just make a better competitive Smash game than Melee, especially when you have almost two decades of hindsight to work with?

This is why I think anyone who works off of this mentality of simply making a carbon copy of Melee doesn't actually want an actually great competitive Smash game, they just want Melee. The goal in mind is rather skewed from my perspective. And I have a strange feeling that if it's not due to incompetence, it's due to either them not wanting to anger Melee fans when just by virtue of not being Melee, they won't play it, or they actually think Melee is the pinnacle of competitive game design in literally every respect. Or they simply don't know why Melee is a great competitive game and can discern the problems with the game as well as what works within it too and get rid of the former and keep the latter.

The most charitable and likely interpretation is the last one, which is why I feel like a "Project Ultimate" who's mission statement is simply to make Melee with Ultimate's roster doesn't actually understand why Melee is a great competitive game in the first place.
Oh. That actually makes sense lol. I just did not think of that. I think both options have their advantages. Doing a Melee clone would be easier, but doing that would just be better overall. Your option would be better if you can come up with easy enough changes to implement.

What do you suggest for changes?
 
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#17
Oh. That actually makes sense lol. I just did not think of that. I think both options have their advantages. Doing a Melee clone would be easier, but doing that would just be better overall. Your option would be better if you can come up with easy enough changes to implement.

What do you suggest for changes?
Basically this thread I made a while ago. Note that some minute things I have changed up, but the overall ideas I think are sound.
 
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Prefecture

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#18
One moment, they want L-canceling to come back in its full manual form, but now that Ultimate gives low landing lag, nearly everyone proclaims L-canceling was garbage and never should have existed.
I can fully understand the disdain that some players' have for the mechanic in Vanilla Melee.

Despite that, I am in full support of the mechanic in every other Smash (And Emulated Melee) due to the ability to reconfigure our buttons.
I suffer from the early stages of rheumatoid arthritis and L-canceling with Non-GC Controllers or with buttons other than the shoulder ones cause me no additional pain.

I also have little interest in the but it's an extra button argument as it is not the only element of gameplay that is essentially making you do (Self-proclaimed) unnecessary work to achieve our desired output.


That was an interesting read. Thank you for showcasing some of your ideas.
 
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LunchmanJ

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#21
I'm not sure what the deal is with this cutting characters thing. Seriously, what is the point of cutting characters in a MOD? It makes no sense. Better to get the creative juices flowing and make them interesting rather than just giving up.
Because OCD.

Also because you can't reinterpret all 70 characters in Ultimate.
 
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#22
Because OCD.

Also because you can't reinterpret all 70 characters in Ultimate.
Not with that attitude lol.

Also, I'm not sure you have to reinterpret everyone. Just add a few extra things or de-echo, but some are alright enough.

LunchmanJ LunchmanJ actually, have you seen my "Rework/Redesign" series of posts? They might be what you have in mind for this sort of thing.
 
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LunchmanJ

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#23
Not with that attitude lol.

Also, I'm not sure you have to reinterpret everyone. Just add a few extra things or de-echo, but some are alright enough.

LunchmanJ LunchmanJ actually, have you seen my "Rework/Redesign" series of posts? They might be what you have in mind for this sort of thing.
Yeah, but I still kinda like using Melee as a base. It's really not that much worse, and is overall easier for the potential PMDT.
 
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#24
I know. I think of Ultimate and the Melee style not as improvements but options. If you like Ultimate, you play Ultimate. If you like Melee, you play Melee. If you like both, you play both. I was a Melee player, worse than Mango obviously, and I am asking for this minor change that affects nothing. What makes my opinion so much less valuable than Mango's? I'm a player too you know.

Who asks for it? I do, and it's part of the general process of even creating Project Ultimate, which will be made even if you don't want it to.
THAT IS TENGAN TOPPA. THAT IS GURREN LAGANN! My drill is the drill that creates the heavens!
Personally (my perspective), its not that you cannot have an opinion, it's that the entire first post read as, even unintentionally, a bit obnoxious.

Allow me to explain-
For me at least, I was irritated by the word choice from the get go- continually referring to Ultimate as 'vanilla' in particular, rang offensively. Vanilla in this context is meant as a synonym for the word 'bland.' I actually find Melee to be much more bland- more movement, but ultimately, as the meme goes- Fox, final destination, no items.

Secondly, you mention in a few later posts how you 'mentioned such' in the OP. It's incredibly long, and when you tack on the ideas of your personal choice of characters, how I read it anyway, comes across as just a whine or a rant, rather than an idea that has any sense of plausibility. (This sounds a bit harsh, and I repeat I dont mean personal offense).

Lastly, adding back in entire mechanics of sluggishness just to then give a new ability to move-- well, it doesnt read well. It adds to the idea that this post was made for a game to revolve around you. And I get it- we all like what we like, and have preferences for how we would have things if we could. Maybe its that the post reads as an expectation that this is how it should be? I don't know. It rubs me the wrong way.
 

LunchmanJ

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#25
Personally (my perspective), its not that you cannot have an opinion, it's that the entire first post read as, even unintentionally, a bit obnoxious.

Allow me to explain-
For me at least, I was irritated by the word choice from the get go- continually referring to Ultimate as 'vanilla' in particular, rang offensively. Vanilla in this context is meant as a synonym for the word 'bland.' I actually find Melee to be much more bland- more movement, but ultimately, as the meme goes- Fox, final destination, no items.

Secondly, you mention in a few later posts how you 'mentioned such' in the OP. It's incredibly long, and when you tack on the ideas of your personal choice of characters, how I read it anyway, comes across as just a whine or a rant, rather than an idea that has any sense of plausibility. (This sounds a bit harsh, and I repeat I dont mean personal offense).

Lastly, adding back in entire mechanics of sluggishness just to then give a new ability to move-- well, it doesnt read well. It adds to the idea that this post was made for a game to revolve around you. And I get it- we all like what we like, and have preferences for how we would have things if we could. Maybe its that the post reads as an expectation that this is how it should be? I don't know. It rubs me the wrong way.
I'll edit my posts.
 
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LightKnight

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#26
Might be interesting to have a version of Ultimate that tries to be like melee just to toy with but I'm not sure how much traction it would actually gain. Especially with some of the comments being made on this thread.

I'd be far more interested in seeing what could be added to Ultimate especially once DLC/updates have stopped for the game. Adding characters like you've suggested with those currently plentiful open slots for such (thats an assumption on my part that those unused character slots could be used for fan-created characters instead of echoes). Speaking of which, the echo characters could be made a lot more unique rather than flat out cutting them from the game. Otherwise, if more room for unique additions is needed I can easily see the echo slots being re-purposed for that.
 

UserKev

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#27
The Knuckles mod is near complete so I'm hyped as far as. I'm interested in seeing how Skull Kid will be, hopefully they get creative. I hope the Lyn mod also get completed.
 

zabimaru1000

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#28
A "Project Ultimate" already exists, and it's not even available to the public. There currently doesn't exist a convenient way to hack the Switch let alone modify a lot of stuff for Ultimate like movesets.

Brawl had the most development to make new characters off of existing ones, but even Project M didn't become too ambitious with the amount of characters they added. Every now and then you see quality fan creations from separate people like the Waluigi, Ridley, and Mage Ganon mods.

And let's say this kind of mod is released, it will only be played for mostly fun with a small group of people playing it competitively much like 4xM.
 
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#30
FRICKIN CUT SOME CHARACTERS SAKURAI
6. Robin
7. Corrin
So your logic towards getting rid of "Flavor of the week Fire Emblem" characters is to get rid of the two Fire Emblem fighters who are the most unique from Marth, his clones, and his semi-clones? That's already a turn off for whatever Project M type mod you want to be developed.

You could cut Lucina and Chrom without most people caring because Marth and Roy are still fighters in your supposed Project M type mod, the two FE Awakening sword fighters were echo fighters of them, and there is still a third fighter in Smash Ultimate from FE Awakening. Cutting Robin and Corrin would truly reduce Fire Emblem to the anime sword fighter style franchise most people despise it for being.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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#31
You add lag to aerials back in then add L canceling to cancel it out.
...

So instead of adding something intuitive, you want to actively make the game harder for no reason other then tech skill?!?

Do you have any idea how a mechanic like L Cancelling would be treated in any other fighting game community? They'd hate it. Imagine L canceling in Street Fighter. Having to press a button every time you land so you dont get punished. Imagine it in Marvel.... imagine that in DBZF...

I shudder at the thought....

I'm so glad Smash just now has low landing lag so we dont have to even need L canceling anymore...

Look, if you want tech skill, think of a good mechanic. Something like character specific tech. Or something that opens options. Makes play smarter, not harder.

L canceling is a limiter. It's an artificial bar to overcome cause if you dont L cancel, you usually do poorly because its blatantly gives an advantage. It's something you have to do all the time. At the end of the day, its gonna boost your game but you aren't really thinking about it. You arent inherently playing any better or learning. You're just gonna get arthritis from how often you have to do it.

Wavedashing is a great mechanic. You aren't gonna use it all the time but it's another option you can use to mix up your game. It's an option, not a requirement to not get punished. You learn when and how to use it. That's why it is a great mechanic.

Think of mechanics like those...
 
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Oddball

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#33
Look man, you don't have to comment if you don't like something. I mean, I'm not crazy about this mod either, but if it's what he wants to do, sure, he can go right on ahead.
Is there somewhere in the rules that state you're only allowed to comment if you like the thing you're commenting about. if so, I must have missed it.

On that note, you clearly didn't like what I had to say and rather than just letting me go right ahead and say it you felt the need to comment on my opinion. So, are we both wrong in your opinion?
 

Xelrog

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#34
It's important for the guy to hear all opinions considering the scope of what's being described. We're talking about a looooot of wasted time if it turns out to be a project no one's going to appreciate.
 

Venclaire

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#35
Without major changes to the input system for Ultimate, I don't think a Project M(Ultimate) would work well. That is my only concern.

Otherwise, Project M is easily my favorite game / mod of all time. I support the idea of this, but I don't know how possible it'd be today. Especially with removing (and adding) characters. Would much rather just keep the base roster, but maybe change balance if needed for the new mechanics and engine.
 
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#37
Could say the same about yours


It's important for the guy to hear all opinions considering the scope of what's being described. We're talking about a looooot of wasted time if it turns out to be a project no one's going to appreciate.
There's a different between helpful criticism and an elitist statement that the fandom of a certain game should die just because he doesn't personally like it. I probably should have made that more clear
 
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#38
Could say the same about yours




There's a different between helpful criticism and an elitist statement that the fandom of a certain game should die just because he doesn't personally like it. I probably should have made that more clear
My post is not ironic- I don't state something with which I disagree.
I think we have meta'd this enough to move on.
 

Oddball

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#40
There's a different between helpful criticism and an elitist statement that the fandom of a certain game should die just because he doesn't personally like it. I probably should have made that more clear
The only difference is that you think your opinion matters more than mine.

People have got hung-up on melee to the point where people are trying to copy melee just so they can be more like melee. Not because they think it'll make the game better but because it's melee and everybody else says they like melee.

I like melee. It was a fun game and it's still a good game, but the Smash's past it have surpassed it in many ways. There were a lot of flaws in melee that later games fixed. On top of that, Smash has changed and many of the things that worked in melee simply wouldn't work anymore without taking a lot out of Smash... so basically you're trying to make Smash less that what it currently is simply to be "more like melee."

I hope that was constructive enough for you.



I never said anyone should die either.
 
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